Hi guys. Know I’m probably going to get shot down in droves for this but I’m asking anyway 🤣 is anyone doing, done in the past or knows of anyone or any forums in relation to the carnivore diet? Good forums seem to be just about impossible to find these days. This one being just about the only decent forum I’ve managed to ever find 😫 I’m having some pretty rough symptoms with it which is apparently normal but thinking of quitting. Just wanted to directly talk to people who have been through it themselves instead of just reading blogs and articles. Getting rather frustrated as I’m having no luck.
I’ll expect plenty of pushback 🤣 but hopefully there’s some help in there too 🙏 any help would be massively appreciated.
Cheers guys
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Elli86
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Sorry to confirm your fears re a response.A carnivore diet specificly excludes all healthy nutrition and fibre it promotes high protein and fat. You will age rapidly on this diet. It will be carcinogenic, you will quickly become constipated and it will generally be conducive to poor health.
I would be interested to know why you are thinking of adopting this diet.
Could you describe the specific health benefits which this diet will encourage. I will follow the thread, if people on the forum make a good response it should be interesting.I do wish you good luck.
Thousands upon thousands have been telling how it’s completely reversed their auto immune issues, massively improved digestion, tons of energy through the day and evenly spaced due to the lack of insulin spiking, mental clarity, mood stabilisation among many others. Could it all be bs? Absolutely. But when literally hundreds of thousands of people are saying it, it does make you wonder. Only one way to find out.
Thanks for the well wishes too 👍
I very much doubt there will be a good response on the whole 🤣 but maybe I’ll be lucky and get one or two 🙏 that’s all I need
"The Paleo Diet: The Paleo diet focuses on returning people to mankind’s earliest eating habits. Many people are successful with this diet because it does not rely on portion control or calorie counting. Instead, it cuts sugary, salty processed foods and drinks, as well as pasta, rice, bread, and cereal. Paleo dieters stick to grass-fed meat, fowl, fish, eggs, vegetables, natural cooking oils, some fruits and nuts, and the occasional sweet potato. Most of the benefits may well come from the reduction of sugar and salt alone."
That's exactly what a dietician has just told my son who really struggles to lose weight. Not to cut out carbs completely but to cut them down. No calorie counting or weighing himself, just change diet and restrict eating to between 10am and 7 pm. I think it will suit my son because he's autistic and forgets to eat then stuffs himself on anything that cooks quickly like pasta.
You’ve completely misunderstood what I was saying. I’m not looking for affirmation. I don’t need it. I know both sides of the argument and would like to think I’m very level headed. All I’m looking for is people that have experienced it so I can gauge what is “normal” and how my experience ties in with theirs.
I’m celiac and carnivoydiet has worked for me. My body needs alot of protein
I do B12 shots weekly and get local beef from ranchers. It’s been about 2 years and my gut is healing. My goal is to add some fruit and veggies. Listen to your body.
Since 2010 when I was diagnosed with B12 deficient I have been taking SOLGAR Gold Top sublingual nugget 2 3 days week now to keep me at 700 level. Dose 1,000ug on those days.
Wow 2 years is a long time. How do you feel in general? In what ways has your health improved and how strict are you with it? Did you experience issues at the start? If so what were they and for how long did they last?
Apologies for the mountain of questions but your exactly the type of person I’m looking to talk to. Thanks for the input.
Once I was diagnosed in Mayo Clinic for celiac I started educating myself No Grain No Pain has been my main reference book. Healing my gut and intestines was my goal. It took along time but by staying clear of processed foods and other foods that upset my gut I have healed. My energy is still restoring but it’s all worth giving up the fake foods😉. I’m back in the gym and continue healing. ❤️🩹
Thanks Bob. I know it’s very left field and goes against many long held beliefs but there are literally hundreds of thousands of people raving about how it’s “cured” their auto immune issues so I thought I’d give it a try and see if it’s all bs or not.
Have you got an autoimmune disease? I have and found the following regarding diet:-
You need a balanced diet for good health so does your carnivore diet include salads and veg?
What you can eat and what not tends to be genetic and about your gut flora, if you haven’t got the bugs, you won’t be able to break down the protein and clear fat from your system. THE only scientific study on personalised nutrition available commercially comes from Zoe. It’s not that expensive and I learned a lot eg: I have real trouble metabolising fats but little or no metabolising carbs - my diet had been low carbs, high fat. I’m much better since I stopped it around. Prof Tim Spectre on the subject:
A little red meat is essential for me to get the B12 I need - only happens once a week. Unless you are from Alaskan indigenous heritage you are unlikely to have the physiology to cope with high protein/fat diet.
Funnily enough both my husbands did the ‘man’ thing and wanted to lose weight went on the old Atkins diet - only carnivorous- this was some years ago. Both were in agony within days they were so constipated. I note that the ‘new’ Atkins diet includes salads and veg.
Looking at the science - the Mediterranean or PanMediterranean diet seems to come out as most beneficial all round.
If you go for it, let us know how it pans out, I wouldn’t personally.
Thanks for the very in depth response as always dreamer.
I’ve already started it 🤣 day 9 now and yes it’s been very difficult which is why I’m looking for help. Apparently what I’m experiencing is completely normal for the first week or 2 but it’s rather brutal 🥵 There’s a ton of things all trying to adapt at once so it can be and in my case, very much is a real shock to the system. A huge percentage of microbiota in the gut are dying off as their old source of carbs has completely gone, the body also needs to heavily up-regulate the production of bile so that your able to process the high levels of fat among other things. Your body needs to become “fat adapted” and apparently this takes time. I think I’ll keep it going for a few more days and see if I adapt. If not I’ll start to add small amounts of veg back in and see how that goes. Just wanted to speak to people who’ve experienced it first hand which is why I’m looking for a decent forum but I don’t think I’m going to find that here unfortunately 😫
Do you have an auto immune disease? If so, how do you measure improvement? For example, do you have specific blood tests to measure how autoimmune activity?
I’m with CDreamer on this one. This diet will very likely decrease the diversity of your gut microbiota as it is being starved of a good variety of plant fibre and beneficial phytochemicals.
It’s up to you how you want to eat but cutting out entire food groups is rarely a good idea. Obviously for people with diagnosed conditions such as nut allergies it’s essential to avoid those foods, but for the majority of the population it makes no sense to cut out food groups. Making up for the shortfalls with supplements doesn’t make much sense because taking one component of a food in isolation and then replicating it on an industrial scale in a factory is not providing the variety of compounds found in whole foods. Supplements aren’t really an equivalent.
A lot of restricted diets develop quite a cult like fan base online, so if that’s your jam then that’s probably the place where people are going to hang out and share their “carnivore journeys” or whatever it’s described as. People on the AF forum are going to be a wider cross section of people as they’re not united by an exclusion diet, so perhaps there’s another online group you could join for that purpose. That doesn’t exclude you from posting here about AF stuff , of course
I wouldn’t say it would have to be strictly a carnivorous forum but somewhere where some people have had experience with it. I’m not just looking for an echo chamber where everyone spouts how amazing it is as that’s just not ever going to be the case with anything in life. There are always two sides or more.
This forum is an exception as there are first and foremost a large amount of people on here, so messages get answered fairly quickly. It is on the whole very respectful apart from the occasional few and it’s not an echo chamber , you’ll hear many different arguments which is only a good thing.
In reference to the video you sent he seems like a very level headed man for sure and what he’s saying may or may not be true. It’s the current general consensus but much like everything else in life it’s subject to being proven wrong and changing. I would definitely disagree with him though when he says about certain tribes evolving to be able to live on meat. I would say they haven’t evolved at all, they have stayed as humans were and it’s us that have evolved in order to accommodate for the agricultural phase and a sudden and huge influx of grains , vegetables and fruit.
Prof Spectre is the only person who actually researched nutrition and came up with the Zoe programme which offers personalised nutrition based on blood tests, blood sugar monitor, test diet you have to do for 7 days and a gut biome test. That’s how I know that I haven’t the gut bugs to clear fat from my system. So if I were to trust anyone on nutrition it would be him and his team. His original research was done on identical twins to eliminate the genetic affect. Drs Chris and Xand Van Tulleken did a similar experiment based on Ultra Processed Food and ended up writing a book about their experiences Processed People.
I wish you luck with your experience and look forward to hearing whether or not you continue and the health outcomes. Best wishes
I’m with you too / I did the Zoe programme starting in March of this year (& still doing it) and have found it really enlightening. Interesting I’m the opposite of you I’m great at metabolising fat but hopeless blood sugar control. But as a plant based eater not surprisingly my gut microbiome scored with high diversity. I think Tim Spectre is likely to change the face of nutrition as we know it .
I won’t get started on my thoughts on a carnivore diet other than to say we should all consider what ‘additives/ antibiotics are injected into raw meats/ live animals before eating them. I for one don’t want a gut full of antibiotics attacking my microbiome.
Hats off to you Elli for giving something a try. I don’t wether what you’re trying is good thing or not to be honest but I’m definitely interested to see how you get on. All the best.
I'm just curious and in no way being contradictory, but why are you on this diet in the first place and especially since you're finding it difficult? -- is it to lose weight or reduce a-fib episodes?
No nothing to do with losing weight. I don’t want or need to lose any weight. My bmi is exactly where I want it to be. This is to try and solve my digestion and fatigue issues. The former which I believe to be the root cause of my health issues including af.
Finding it difficult is a natural response from the body for what is a very drastic change to what it’s been used to for MANY years. My diet has never been bad but totally removing carbs and fibre will obviously take the body a while to get used to. Day 11 and I’m already starting to turn the corner. Feel so much better yesterday and today. Everything improving steadily. Who knows what will happen but I’m excited to find out.
Have you had vitamin B 12 , Folates , Iron/ Ferritin and Vitamin D tested recently? As if you are very low or Deficient in these they can cause the symptoms you are experiencing.You can request these from the GP if you haven't had them in the last six months and have a chronic health issue , take medications or have symptoms like Fatigue.
It is worth doing these now , even though it is usually best to have them before starting a diet.
I have various health conditions, including digestive illnesses , Vitamin B12 Deficiency Anaemia ( no matter what I eat) EDS and Fatigue as well as AF and other heart issues.
I know that particularly in relation to people with digestive issues a Carnivore diet isn't the healthy option.
The body does require nutrient rich foods like vegetables and some fruits as well as protein for proper functioning , and it needs soluble fibre.
The Carnivore Diet , also causes a large loss of water and salts . Internal Dehydration and excess loss of salts are common problems on this diet.
Autoimmune conditions , Fatigue and Pain syndromes do not usually improve , in fact they invariably get worse, when the vitamin and mineral levels available in our body reduce.
Even if people may have had a short term improvement in symptoms it is more likely that this isn't because a Carnivore Diet can reverse their illness but that when they excluded so many food groups at once they have happened to stop eating a few foods that they may be less tolerant to.
I wouldn't try this first hand but as the Carnivore Diet seems to be the new trending protocol I've read a number of posts from people on various forums going through negative symptoms since trying this diet and wondering , just like yourself, if the restrictive diet is causing it .
One just yesterday, from a person whom may need to delay a knee replacement because they were found to be Sodium Deficient in pre surgical tests after doing Carnivore.
Others have mentioned other problems such as something equivalent to " Keto Flu" , Constipation, reduction in muscle strength, muscle numbness and increased Hypertension and Hypotension .
I also know a female Hospital Doctor whom has Ehlers Danlos Syndrome and Tachycardia whom is a competitive body builder in her spare time.
Her diet is high protein but also contains a high volume of vegetables and the restricted but appropriate level of complex carbohydrates for her activity and gender. Her illnesses mean she knows she can't follow the exact same pattern of eating as a body builder with no preexisting health issues. She specifically changed her coach because they tried to pressurise her to follow this type of Carnivore protocol.
And this is a very important point when it comes to these types of extreme diets they were not designed to be used by , or weren't researched upon, people with medical health needs. "You don't know until you try it", isn't really a good philosophy to live by when your health can be badly effected by the things you do or consume. Look at medical research recommendations for a diet that improves your health issues rather than eating trends.
Our ancestors were not just Hunters they were also Gatherers and actually ate what was available and much like other primates that included vegetation, berries , nuts , roots and shoots , if by the coast ;seaweeds, and even ate honey. So a more varied nutritious diet filled with fresh additive free foods is the healthier way to go.
So please , even if you feel the need to be extremely restricted in your carb intake , do add vegetables , some salt and fibre back into your regime, no matter what the diet literature says about changes in digestion being temporary, they aren't , any symptoms you are having is your body telling you that it needs something. Feed those needs before more serious problems arise, Take care , Bee
Sorry have to disagree again 🤣 everything your saying is entirely the opposite to everything I’ve read. This diet specifically targets and apparently reverses digestive and autoimmune issues. Virtually everyone you will read about will tell you how the first few weeks can be torture while your body adjusts. There are many things happening at once so it’s no wonder you can feel rough. I’m turning the corner already so I’m going to give it a little while longer to see if I see drastic improvement. If not then I’m fully prepared to change it up. I won’t be treating it like some sort of religious gospel that cannot be broken. I think this is ridiculous. But I am giving it a go. As I’ve said many times you don’t know until you try it yourself especially when it comes to diet but in general life too. I know you’ve claimed this isn’t a good rule to live by but I wholeheartedly (no pun intended) disagree. I think it’s the only way to live but this is a matter of opinion. I feel that people who live by the opposite mantra tend to live very boring lives and never get anything done. Just my opinion.
I would love to read what you have read outside the information given on websites or in books that advocate the Carnivore Diet , not just within it. Have you read any medical research on these types of diets ?
I have read the information from the biggest advocates of Carnivore , Keto , LCHF and Paleo and watched their YouTube videos.
But I have also read a great deal of the medical and research studies about these diets too, which is why I know that there are many health disadvantages caused by using them.
If there weren't so many negatives I would be replying with lots of positive evidence and eating that way myself.
I have EDS and a B12 Deficiency so I'm not anti meat , I wouldn't advocate an entirely vegan diet either and couldn't eat a 100% plant based diet for health reasons either.
I’m curious to know firstly how you have the time to read so many studies and secondly why you would put so much time into a diet you don’t seem to be interested in adhering to yourself?
I put time into learning about new diets, medications , treatments and self care options because I am open to trying new things and you can't tell if a new idea will be worth trying unless you do your research.I have had chronic health issues all of my life and some of them were misdiagnosed or Undiagnosed for more than two decades.
I had to learn what works and helped to improve my conditions myself , especially in terms of nutrition and exercise , because, even now , there is very little detailed help given to us via our local surgeries or hospitals , particularly for illnesses that they don't have as much experience in treating. But I did not experiment with anything until I did my research.
There are many things that I have considered over the years with hope and an open mind only to be disappointed when I really looked into the details and compared it to my needs.
And I've also seen and had to help care for people whom tried out methods , diets or alternative treatment options after they had bad effects , many of these things were well publicised, en trend. and appeared safe on the surface.
So I realised it was even more important to check the pros and cons properly rather than take things on face value. When you have lifelong health issues and look after others with them too you learn that the time taken to research things is never wasted,
Do you have AF or another condition ? I notice a number of people have asked , including myself, but I haven't noticed an answer .
If you haven't , then obviously the option to try more extreme diets can be less risky for you, but then I am curious as to why you have asked the question on an AF forum where people's needs could be very different to your own.
One of the weight loss or general health forums may be a better option for you to get answers about people's experiences as there will be more people trying this type of diet with more tips about it on those.
Wherever you wish to look. Obviously I cannot personally vouch to reading or hearing 100s or thousands personally 🤣 but what I can say is that every first hand experience comment I have read is completely positive apart from the dreaded first week or two. Am I saying this is a panacea for all humans and will save the world? No clearly not but I have seen, read and heard enough now to be willing to try and see how I react personally. It’s that simple. Nothing says even if I have unbelievable results that I will keep the diet forever. It’s just a test that is well worth trying.
🤣🤣 no i didn’t make the number up. As I said I can’t personally vouch for every single person can I? I can only say what I have seen. If you think it can be any other way then you’re an idiot. What the hell have cigarette companies got to do with anything? 🤣 ridiculous example.
Cigarettes used propaganda and lied, so now you are saying you've personally seen 1000's on this diet. Think I'm more likely to believe a cigarette company saying smoking is healthy.
You are clearly unable to read as I’ve stated the same thing many times and your still not grasping it. To be frank I couldn’t care less what your willing to believe. I haven’t asked anyone to believe anything and that would be irrelevant anyway as I’m not pushing anything 🤣 I’m not looking for and don’t need other peoples appraisal as I’ve stated many times also. Try reading and understanding someone’s point before commenting complete rubbish. Have a good day 👍
What you really want to see is scientific research, peer reviewed. It’s easy to say 100s of 1000s, but who are they, does the science back it up? If you’re having trouble with it, that probably tells you something. I can appreciate your desperation. What I would suggest though is to test yourself for markers know to affect AF, like inflammation before and after and see if it has any effect.
Yes I agree scientific reviews are the gold standard 100% but these generally only happen once something becomes mainstream. This is not there yet and may never get there. Everything has to start somewhere. I’m giving it a go and seeing how I feel.
That isn't strictly true.Many medically accredited and responsibly tested diets are used on small study groups by independent Researcher's with people of various ages and genders before data review and longitudinal study research is done on participants in the general population.
Unfortunately, many under researched but well marketed diet regime's can become fads very quickly before any form of independent research is done to prove or disprove the claims made by the Diet Originator. Often claims made in the Diet websites or in the books are based on the authors tests on very limited subject groups or anecdotal evidence which unfortunately often does not stand up well to scrutiny.
It's why it's so important to do a lot of your own checks about what has been medically researched and recommended for your whole health profile ( as sometimes one diet plan can be good for one of your health issues but bad for another ) before trying out new diets or following all of the rules required by them.
I disagree. Yes study’s may be carried out on small groups but something has to be popular before these studies become worthwhile. I believe this is somewhat proven by the fact that many people have been on this diet for 20+ years and yet so far no studies specifically for this diet have been carried out that I’m aware of. One of the number one advocates for this diet Dr Sean baker has been on this diet since around 2016 himself. His enthusiasm for the diet saw a small rise in popularity but still no studies. It’s only recently, probably from the high profile “celebrity’s” mainly Micheala and Jordan Peterson, that there’s been quite a large surge in popularity. I think you will find that now specific studies will start to take place.
My husband and I went on it when he developed cancer. After a few months my cholesterol levels went in the wrong directions for the first time. Now I have partial blockage of both carotids and am on meds. Be sure to test your cholesterol levels. (Didn't help his cancer but a new pill break through has him doing well for years.)
Hi yes I’ve heard that cholesterol levels will go very high but this is to be expected when consuming high amounts of meat and especially fat. But what we don’t know is how important this is when the body has zero carbs. Many people think this becomes a non issue. I’m no doctor though so I can’t claim this is true or false as I have no idea. But neither does anyone else as studies need to be done to confirm or deny this.
May I ask how you’ve verified that there are ‘hundreds of thousands of people’ on this diet (other than the claim being made in an advertising campaign? ) I would have expected that so many people would have organised themselves (such as creating a forum similar to Health Unlocked) where you could post your queries.
How does anyone truly verify anything? What I can say is that everything I’ve read and all comments I’ve seen have indicated as such. Tell me exactly how this could be verified reliably?
You have to decide what sources you are going to believe. Some are more reliable than others. Medical journals, World health organisation, well known universities, are ones that I would have more confidence in, where you can have some confidence that the people making the claims have subjected their work to the scientific method, reviewed by peers. The carnivore diet gets no votes in this environment.
That’s true but after recent events it’s clearly been shown that even so called “experts” generally don’t have a clue either. Especially the who! What a load of incompetent weasels they seem to be. It’s almost impossible to know who’s right or wrong and generally over time most things get proven wrong.
Look for research that has been done outside of the forums or groups that are just focusing on the Carnivore Diet. Particularly look up medical studies about Low Carb / High Fat , Keto and Paleo Diets in relation to your illnesses and health in general and studies of the foods and nutrients that have been shown to help improve your individual health conditions. You will discover that most of these diets are not recommended for various cardiac and other health conditions and need various adaptions in essential foods.There are many healthier options for a sustainable long term diet.
Since reading a lot of the Diet debates , my diet mantra has become ,
Thanks for input. Understand what your saying and it makes sense but the proof is in the pudding. No one really knows what will work for them without trying it. Doesn’t necessarily have to be long term. I’m fully prepared to switch it up if need be.
Do you have AF or some other type of illness in the autoinflammatory or autoimmune spectrum?As I said in a previous reply , " You don't know until you've tried it " isn't a healthy approach for people with a pre-existing health condition because trying it without researching his it can impact on your illnesses or with the medications you take can , and often does m have a detrimental effect.
Carnivore is even stricter than Keto and that is not appropriate for many health conditions either.
A peer reviewed study from 2019 showed that keto like low carb restriction meant the risk of AF was 18x higher than it was on a moderate complex carb regime no matter which protein or fats were consumed. The risk was actually worse than it was eating a high complex carb diet.
Although inflammation is reduced in the short term it is usually because people give up sugar, additives and processed foods at the same time as stopping carbs , and these are the actual culprits causing inflammation.
Long term use of extreme low carb diets have also been proved to eventually cause more inflammation because of the depletion of vitamins and minerals caused by eating no vegetables or fruit.
It also causes the metabolism to slow down after initial weight loss and reduces the amount of lean muscle mass you have unless you are able to counterbalance the high protein and fat diet with intensive strength training, which is not often possible for people with chronic conditions and AFib. This is evidence based on research in the Athletics and Weight Lifting Communities.
There is also the issue of increased heart symptoms on these diets because of the way it depletes your salt levels and causes Dehydration, and even the biggest advocates of the diets have felt forced to admit that.
You will obviously choose what you want to do but please don't fool yourself by saying no one really knows what could happen or if they are wise choices because they do and the information is out there if you look beyond the Diet forums and read the medical research.
Please take care , and at least add in some vegetables, Bee
Yes I have af that’s why I’m on this forum. It’s been “corrected” by an ablation which seems to have helped out with the af but caused me other issues. I’ve suffered with what I suspect are autoimmune issues for the last 10 years. I suspect my gut is the root cause of all of it. I had massive success with an elimination diet a few years back but it all went downhill once I started to add foods back in. If you read one of my other replies here I go into more detail about this. I’m well aware that elimination diets, which I would consider the carnivore diet to fall into, can be beneficial purely because they eliminate processed crap. However I don’t eat any and haven’t for years apart from the EXTREMELY occasional packet of crisps or McDonald’s chips and that’s literally it. My diet is extremely healthy so this particular reason for why I had success with my elimination diet does not hold water. We are what we eat as they say and I’m a firm believer that diet and the human body are complicated beyond our current knowledge level and everyone is individual. As I’ve said many times the proof is in the pudding and for me there is only one way to truly find out. I’m not an idiot and I will listen to my body and do my utmost to ensure that the relevant testing is carried out when necessary and be fully prepared to change things if/when needed. I’m sure my doctor will be more than happy to do some testing so he/she can see what this diet does to a human Guinea pig 🤣
If you have got other autoimmune symptoms occurring have you asked the GP to test for any if these to rule in or out possible conditions to help you get to the root cause of the problem?Was your Elimination Diet with monitoring by a Dietitian?
this was the way to go for me because they could order tests that weren't generally offered by the GP or even Gastroenterology. If you haven't seen a Dietitian before, or haven't seen one since things went downhill for you again it may be the best step forward for you.
Doctors have been utterly useless for me over the last ten years. Yes I’ve tried everything and spent thousands on private dieticians, musculature specialists, physiotherapists to name a few. All to no avail.
No my elimination diet was me on my own and I was going purely by how I felt and I felt amazing. I’ve not had so much energy and felt so calm going back until I used to train. It worked and then once I started adding foods back in it all went to pot. Maybe I should have had someone monitoring but after all my failure with docs, physios etc i didn’t see much point.
This is interesting but as AFers are all told to eat a ‘Mediterranean diet’ you aren’t likely to find anyone here on the carnivore diet. It is interesting because of course our distant ancestors ate more of a cat like diet though even cats seem to feel the need of veg sometimes! But they were eating meat when they caught it and probably having days when they didn’t thus giving their system a chance to deal with the meat because it takes a long time to digest. I can imagine that going straight into a totally carnivorous diet overnight would cause horrible symptoms - what are yours? I believe that the ‘one size fits all’ theory is wrong. We have a big genetic heritage and it follows that some people have different digestive needs - gluten free, lactose free, etc. I can’t tolerate brown bread or indeed any wholemeals and I know this isn’t ‘all in my head’ because I’ve had symptoms which puzzled me until I realised I’d eaten wholemeal inadvertently. What I’m getting to is that maybe there are people whose systems are best adapted to a high meat diet (there was a story in the papers a while ago about a chef who mostly ate steak and felt fine on it but nearly killed himself by trying to go vegetarian!) but maybe if you were one of them you would soon feel better on that diet.
It would be good to know how you get on. Also interesting to know if you ever manage to link up with some of these numerous people who are ‘recommending’ the diet. Excuse me for being cynical!
Your cynicism is fine trust me 🤣 I know how it sounds and expected it. But your reply is very respectful as always buff.
I agree that evidence suggests that for most of human existence we ate a carnivorous diet 100%. Having had 5 cats growing up I can’t ever say I remember any of them being partial to vegetables though 🤣 maybe I’ve missed something there.
Thanks for the input as always and I’m as interested as you are to see how it all turns out. Maybe I’ll be back on veg in a few days whos knows 🤷♂️
I thought we came from Hunter, Gatherer stock which is - eat whatever is available. I like the idea of fasting and believe that is a sensible thing to do when going totally carnivore as often Hunters went for days/weeks without a successful kill? So I do not think that for most of human existence we ate 100% carnivore diet - I think it universally agreed that we are omnivores.
I would say it points more to the fact that we were hunters/scavengers and only ate Fruit and veg in times of necessity but obviously that is very hard to say when speaking about hundreds of thousands/millions of years ago.
You may be sensitive to wheat fructans, which will be more prevalent in wholewheat varieties. I say this because I am sensitive to wheat fructans (but not barley or rye, or the onion/garlic/leek types of fructans). In my case I can have small quantities of wholewheat products now and then. Symptoms are dose dependent, for me at least.
The reason for this is due to the loss of gut microbes that can break down wheat fructans (as this is a fermentable fibre). It’s typically due to a combination of historical antibiotic use and/or a lack of dietary fibre. You can recover these bacteria by slowly introducing small amounts of wholewheat which allows those species to build up in time. Eliminating completely isn’t a good idea because it can reduce the population of these bacteria to the point of becoming vanishingly small that any attempts to introduce this food will only produce even greater symptoms. That’s why it’s useful to eat just a little bit if you can, and ideally increase your tolerance.
Sourdough bread is often better tolerated but you need to find a proper bakery that makes the real deal, or make your own. The “sour faux” from the supermarkets is probably not a good idea. TBH, I don’t eat much bread myself and make my own soda bread from oats or buckwheat, but I can tolerate sourdough quite well.
I’ve been able to improve my GI symptoms to the point where I rarely have any using this approach. I worked with a registered dietitian and did the FODMAP regime and followed it all to the letter. It’s made a huge difference, but it’s always a work in progress. I don’t recommend it as a DIY strategy, you need to work with a qualified person for that.
I don’t know if I have or have had SIBO. What I understand from people who treat SIBO is that you have to improve any pre existing constipation and slow transit, otherwise the contents of the large intestine will back up into the small intestine and undo all the effects of the specific antibiotics that treat SIBO, which are also very expensive. If you take the antibiotic treatment without working on your transit time the SIBO could come back. SIBO is quite difficult to treat. I try and keep things moving with a combination of psyllium husk in the morning and ground flaxseed sprinkled into my main meals. I’ve yet to try PHGG and the other newer products on the market.
Didn't work for me either - it got so boring too trying to work out what I could and couldn't eat. In fact went through this before Covid and probably still have some pasta and stuff in cupboards that we bought to do this - must get rid of that. Gastroenterologist and dietician also advised expensive pro-biotics - only available online that had to be kept in the fridge and delivered in ice box and just an expensive waste of time. Tried them for over 6 weeks along with watching my diet. I have always eaten a varied generally cooked from fresh diet and only get problems when eating at odd times in odd places - because of work visiting or holidaying or like you after antibiotics and prostate cancer treatments. For me it just takes time for my gut to get back to normal after such times nothing seems to help but I do drink yogurt drinks at such times and I believe this does help.
It all depends how adventurous you are in the kitchen. I was able to experiment with other low FODMAP ingredients such as fonio, teff and amaranth. At the same time, not having onions or garlic was quite tricky from a flavour perspective but I used infused oils as a kind of workaround. Most spices and herbs were OK, I am quite resourceful so I used a more curious and creative approach. We were still under a lot of Covid restrictions at that time so it didn’t interfere with my social activities, although when we went away for a family gathering I brought my own pre-prepared meals. A lot of additional work to do beforehand, mind you, but as I said, I stuck to it by the letter because if I wasn’t doing it properly I wouldn’t really be doing it at all. It was 100% worth it in my case, as I could pinpoint what exactly was causing symptoms, but not everyone gets as good results.
Probiotics are pretty much a waste of money for most people. They help a minority of people with IBS-D. I spelt a small fortune on them too, It’s worth giving them a go to see if they help, but they are very expensive so there’s no point in taking. them without good reason.
It also depends on where you live and if you can easily find some of the ingredients - here in the wilds of West Wales not so easy. Quite often we are watching various food programmes and James Martin or Nigella or whoever will say easily found in Supermarkets and even if we travel an hour or more away this thing is not available in any shops here. If it had made any difference I would have knuckled down and got stuff by mail order for special ingredients - or even some of the more normal ones that other people could trot to their local supermarket to find but can't be acquired here but my trial made no difference. Glad we weren't under Covid restrictions when I attempted this as it was hard to get deliveries in this area even though both my wife and I were in the high risk category and frequently we only had post on a Friday, and not every Friday when we received a whole array of mail - frequently delivered to the wrong address - though I am pleased to say that nothing so far as we know went astray (amazing) Luckily we have a local neighbourhood whatsapp so could ring people up and then leave their mail on their doorstep for them to collect, so anything ordered by mail would likely have been "off" by the time we received it. Though delivery drivers and Royal Mail did do a great job with all the restrictions and working with so many off either ill or quarantined.
I am pleased that you found what worked for you. Thankfully now nearly 8 years post radiotherapy for prostate cancer my bowel seems to be back to how it was before, it just needed more than 2 years to deal with the aftereffects of the trauma caused by the radiotherapy - though I am on minimal medication for it and can take extra if I have problems. Though worth trying the FODMAP diet to see if it helped at the 2 year stage. It is always worth trying all these things to find out if they work for you.
Great news that your bowel health is much improved. I hope you stay well in all respects. I agree it’s so much easier when you have unlimited choice and availability on your doorstep, as I do. I was being woken up with my GI symptoms and it was having an impact on my sleep so the do-nothing option wasn’t working out. Have you heard of Prof Rob Thomas. He’s an oncologist who has patients with prostate cancer. He’s a big believer in lifestyle changes, but he also believes that conventional treatment can be necessary and life-saving too. I find him interesting. He’s done a few podcasts on the Doctor’s Kitchen and he will be on the next episode of Microbiome Medics, if you’re interested.
I started a low carb/low FODMAP diet 3 months ago because of suspected SIBO/IMO problems with bloating and stomach pains, it was similar to Carnivore diet with mainly meet eggs cheese plus nuts, but soon after starting I noticed lots of extra ectopic beats and then 2 afib attacks which I had been free of for almost 3 years. I was finding it hard to get enough calories without the carbs so was eating lots of cheddar cheese(150g/day) after reading a few afib diet posts I now think the extra calcium may have been the problem, so the last week I have cut out the cheese and my heart has been quiet without ectopic beats.
Thanks for reply oz. Other than the ectopics how did/do you feel? I don’t eat any dairy apart from butter but I am finding that I’m getting ectopics. Nothing too drastic just a lot more than usual but I’ve read this is fairly normal during the adaptation phase. My main issue is digestion and appetite at the minute. Like yourself I’m finding it hard to stomach all the extra fat. Hoping it will settle otherwise I’ll have to start adding some veg or maybe fruit back in to give my gut a little something extra.
I lost 4kg in 3 weeks and was only 65kg to start, it's hard to eat enough with the restrictions, I didn't feel good with only the meat eggs cheese and it didn't help my enlarged prostate. I have now been able to add some fruits and vegetables not much but enough to make me feel better(carrots, lettuce, honeydew and couple of strawberries) so still restricted carbs, but my afib was defiantly worse.
Elli. As a quick help to you. Have you listened to any of the Teachings of Dr Ken Berry? He is a wonderful resource to me. Perhaps start here and dive further into it after this first recommendation….
Make sure whatever animal you are eating is BOTH organic and free range and from a local farm raised humanely .....otherwise you are just eating toxic chemicals............personally have not eaten meat in 56 years
Understand what your saying but you do realise that plants also contain chemicals? Ones that are designed to stop you eating the plant. It’s natures way of protecting the plant as it doesn’t have teeth or claws to defend itself.
Hi Elli, I’ve recently started a keto diet and I must say, after an initial rough few days things have settled and, even though I’m in persistent AF I feel better than I have in a very long time - lost some weight too, which was needed after a year on beta-blockers! Carnivore was too hardcore for me but keto seemed a good compromise and seems to be working for me, too. I wonder if that’s something you considered and if you did, I’d be interested to know why you opted for Carnivore instead.
To be honest criticism doesn’t bother me 🤣 anything new encourages criticism. Every idea that’s ever been had has been ridiculed at the start. It’s just the way it is. Especially when that idea is completely against the grain.
I chose carnivore because of the amazing reviews about it. They may all be bs like many other ways things but it was enough for me to give it a try. I considered keto but didn’t hear as many great things about it but I’m fully prepared to switch to keto if/when I’m not getting results on this.
How long have you been on it now? How do you feel in general and which symptoms did you have at the start?
You’re absolutely right, without folk willing to challenge conventional wisdom there would be no progress. You may or may not be on the right path but can only know by trying.
I’ve only been on Keto for just under three weeks now. I’ve had joint problems for years following rheumatoid arthritis in my 20s. They had become particularly troublesome recently and I happened to come across an article about auto-immune disorders being helped with keto. I also came across a study showing that an increase in protein intake helped to reduce AF episodes in post-menopausal women, so decided to give it a go. I can say the joints have definitely improved already. In addition the brain fog and tiredness that I put down to AF meds has gone and, so far, I’ve lost 5lb of the stone I put on whilst on beta-blockers. I’ve not noticed any difference in my persistent AF but it certainly doesn’t feel any worse and so I’m a happy bunny😀
Glad to hear it threecats. Sounds like your improvements mirror most things I’ve been reading about the carnivore diet. I’ve heard about the lift in mental clarity and brain fog. People describe it as being overcome with a general feeling of calmness. I’ve seen it called “the keto zen” which is very interesting. Really hoping I experience something similar. I have done a strict elimination diet before which allowed for veg as well and I remember sitting on the train and suddenly realising how calm I felt in general but also for the first time in my life realising I couldn’t feel anything at all going on with my digestion. I think this is where the calmness is coming from. Unfortunately once I started adding foods back in things quickly started to go downhill from there. I started with fruits and this is where I get the idea that I don’t think I tolerate them very well. Once things started going downhill life got in the way and I ended up back on my usual diet which to be fair is very good anyway but the results I got from that I want to revisit and see if I can crack it this time. Carnivore seems like the ultimate elimination diet so I’ll see how it goes 🤞🤞🤞🤞
That’s interesting Elli, thank you for sharing your previous diet experience. I think you’re right about the calmness coming from a happy bowel. I, too, struggle with fruit. Berries seem ok but a lot of other fruits cause me gut issues. Fortunately I’m ok with veg so long as it’s cooked.
I know where you’re coming from with life intervening, too! I hope you have an easier time of it this time around. I will be very interested to know how you get on.
Thanks threecats. Seems even on here many people have had success with the diet which I wasn’t expecting to be honest. Thought I’d just get a ton of abuse 🤣🤣 its given me further encouragement that it may work. Hope so anyway 💪
there was enough positive results out there for me to give it a shot. aiming for 1g protein per kg ideal body weight. its not easy but the results have all been positive so far, no blood results yet but that will come in time. Big one for me was chest pain (heart) is gone, a little discomfort in the arms at times but nothing like before, weight is dropping, over 4 kg off in about 5 weeks, id say just do it, stick with it, theres lots of ''expert research'' out there to say no, but that all skewed
That’s exactly my thought process. Seen so many positive results now it’s worth a try. Glad to hear it’s going well. What would you say have been the most notable positives outside of the weight and chest pain?
My son in a vegan ,my wife is a carnivore , I have adopted a Mediterranean style diet more or less. Going out for a meal is hell - so I rarely bother!
I can understand vegetarianism and veganism as it springs from a desire to avoid killing and reducing environmental harm. I would hate to be bullied into being one. Good for my son - he’s said “vegan is my diet not my identity.”
Carnivore diet appears to be very much about self interest and negation of any care for the environment although it is argued that they care about the welfare of the animals they eat.
Undeniably some animals are tasty and for me that includes rabbit, chicken and maybe goat if I’m lucky …and fish.
There are plenty of sites if you Google or look on YouTube which will link you up with people who advocate either Vegan or Carnivore diets. My wife watches them all the time - I hear the voices (mostly USA) extolling the virtues of rib eye steak for breakfast lunch and dinner all the time. I’ve heard many claim that the diet has healed illnesses including mental illness induced by prior vegan lifestyle.., There’s no shortage of “information” you can “research” and learn all about the “science “ behind it …,and how vegetables are poison.
Vegetables of course are promoted by the Big Farmer conspiracy..
I find my healthy omnivore diet without alcohol and caffeine coupled with regular exercise has radically reduced my AF symptoms and that is backed up by pacemaker recordings.
Maybe an extreme diet short term may help to identify intolerances but there may be better ways to do that by adopting what to me appears to be an internet promoted eating disorder .
🤣🤣🤣 your family must have some very entertaining around the dinner table conversations. Thanks for input. Not sure an internet promoted eating disorder is the way to describe any diet but each to their own 🤣
😂 I’m so so tired of YouTuber influencers …. and I don’t do YouTube so maybe a rant. I do so enjoy the flavours of the variety of food I eat …I couldn’t go down the route of anything restrictive … but as we agree we all make choices.
Do you have any autoimmune issues and or health issues outside of what I would assume is obvious af? How willing you are to take drastic action is directly correlated to how bad your health is in the first place. That and other factors of course, such we willpower and determination.
YouTube is an incredible resource of information. You just need to know what to listen to and be able to recognise bs. Not always the easiest of tasks granted 🤣 but as far as social media “influencers” go yes I would 100% ageee 99% or them are toxic and full of shit.
Just look at the evidence. That means all of it. Of course the proponents of ANY diet will talk enthusiastically about its alleged benefits and cures for all ills, but it is mostly subjective and self selecting. At least with detailed medical and diet studies which use tens of thousands of people and controls, and analyse the effects based on the results, you can have rather more conviction about who and what is right.
As the Roman poet and philosopher Titus Lucretius Carus said : "quod ali cibus est aliis fuat acre venenum" (what is food for one man may be bitter poison to others).' and we can all point to the guy who smoked all his life and lived to 101 without lung cancer or heart disease, but that is not a reason to take up smoking.
My advice to anybody is to choose a balanced diet and put your priority into getting food that is as far as possible free from chemical pollutants, pesticide residues and herbicides as well as foods which are less likely to provoke allergies or intolerances.
That’s a very level headed and logical approach for sure. My question would be how do you know what your own personal poison is without trying? That’s my point and one of the main reasons I’m doing it. It’s the ultimate elimination diet.
How long have you been doing it? I had severe stomach ache and fatigue for first couple of weeks whilst my body adjusted to the sugar withdrawal if that helps?
I did it a few years back but fell off the wagon during lockdown. During it, I felt amazing - lots more energy, complemented my fitness and exercise plus I lost weight particularly from my areas that like to hold the fat. Best thing ever but it’s hard to get going again once you do it successfully the first time. I’m going to try again Monday with a few friends for support. Keep us posted with how you get on!
I can honestly compare it to giving up smoking as it’s so hard to cut the habit. I’m determined to start again, be prepared etc. After lockdown, I became more of a social butterfly than ever and a bit YOLO - it can be quite restrictive when you’re eating out and I like to have wine with meals etc.
Now that my friends want to do it, I’m hoping my competitive side kicks in and pushes me over the line into ketotis 💪🏼
Yes probably more ketovore 😆 as both very similar! Both more restrictive than paleo but very effective. Was in the best shape of my life on it - actually have a bikini pic on my phone to inspire me 🤦🏼♀️
🤣🤣 nothing wrong with that. Gives you a bit of a kick up the backside 😆 already thinking I may lean into low amounts of veg/fruit in a few days just to see what happens. Keep walking past some rather delicious looking perfectly ripe peaches 🍑😛 and getting some rather heavy cravings 🤣 I’ll resist for now. Just want to give this a real go and see if I do infact get the benefits of it before I cave to the lovely succulent fruit 😛🤣
🤣🤣🤣 good choice! I do miss a nice glass of Merlot with dinner I’m not gonna lie. It’s been over 3 years without a sip of alcohol though so I’m past it now. Was on holiday in Italy recently though so that was difficult 😆
Wow 3 years! That’s truly amazing 👏 I’d love to have an alcohol free lifestyle…..
I’m hoping to give up for a while to help with the diet so I’ve bought these great tasting green tea bags I had last weekend at a spa. I can cradle a big mug of that instead of a glass of wine.
🤣🤣 yes that’s probably a healthier alternative. I used to love green tea but since my heart kicked off I got rid of everything and anything that could upset it. Caffeine being one of them. Even though I’m aware green tea only has small amounts but I wasn’t going to take any chances. I want to be as healthy as possible for my kids. Having no energy and having to turn them down when they ask to play is torture so I’m doing my utmost to ensure that doesn’t happen anymore 💪
You sound like an amazing mum! Having no energy for my kids has been the hardest thing I’ve had to endure especially last summer when I was quite ill.
This year I’ve been much better and that has been behind my whole YOLO ethic (I had a sudden cardiac arrest last year on holiday with the family) but I want to now embrace a more holistic lifestyle .
You have definitely inspired me to get back on the carnivore diet 💪🏼💪🏼
Hopefully i sound like an amazing dad 🤣 but thanks for the complement none the less 😆
Yes it’s really difficult not having been able at times to do what my kids want to do but I’ve been managing much better recently. Hopefully I can improve things further through diet 🤞
Sorry to hear that you’ve been having issues yourself but I’m glad to hear I’ve inspired you to maybe improve that side of things.
If you're going to be that drastic, why not opt for the autoimmune paleo diet (AIP)It is tough to stick to, but it can't be tougher than the carnivore diet.
I am not for eating lots of grains. They drive inflammation, they are essentially sugar. Sugar inflames, the body reacts to inflammation by increasing cholesterol. Citrus fruits should be kept to a minimum if you have an autoimmune condition. Lots of plants don't want to be eaten anymore than live animals do, and contain antinutrients, especially pulses. All good if you don't have a sensitive digestive system, but problems if you do. So eat, but pre-soak and cook well and then not eat everyday, especially endocrine disrupters like soy. Our ancestors fermented a lot of vegetables to make them easier to digest. The problem is things like soy that should be long fermented are simply added to foods without this.
Offal such as liver, kidney, heart and thymus are (true) superfoods, nutrient dense that give direct vitamin A (as opposed to beta carotene which must be converted) copper, zinc and of course b vits and iron and due to the concept of molecular mimicry support your own organs. Heart is very good it contains lots of Q10 which the heart needs.
I don't agree with the carnivore diet though, as you need fibre. Jordan Peterson and his daughter are both on this diet and whilst his daughter seems very well, JP has visibly aged, perhaps there is a sex difference in terms of efficacy, I don't know if anyone has tested that. Simply cut down on grains (you can eliminate grains altogether or pre-soak) and consume high insulin spiking fruit along with protein to cut the spike. Eat bitter dark greens especially. Eat meat organs. Legs and thighs the bits we go for, are mostly muscle and deficient in most of the nutrients. It gives me bemusement to see in a cost of living crisis that the most bioavailable nutrient dense and cheapest food in the supermarket is the offal that nobody really buys probably because of taste.
Drink bone broth for autoimmune issues provided you don't also have histamine intolerance. If you have the latter, make sure all meat and fish is as fresh as possible.
Hi Alana and thanks for the info. Some good info in there but I heavily disagree with your comments of Jordan Peterson. I guess it’s very individual but I would say he looks better than ever. His daughter Micheala is where I first heard about the diet and have been looking into it more over the years and finally decided to do it. You’ve also got to bare in mind that jp is indeed getting older 🤣 yet he does not look his age at all and states that he feels both physically and mentally the best he’s ever felt in his life. Coming from a man of integrity like himself it’s hard not to take him for his word.
You know you have me there as I don't know how old he is exactly! But I love JP don't get me wrong. And yes, I know he says he feels better than ever, and I'm glad, as he had a period of depression following his wife's illness and it was quite sad to see his suffering. But compared to how he looked a few years ago (check him out during the Cathy Newman interview) he now looks perhaps a bit underweight and craggy or maybe 'careworn' might be more accurate then. Sorry, this is just my opinion! I used to fancy him loads! Probably erm, still wou**....
🤣🤣🤣 yeah he’s a charismatic man and to be fair it’s hard to say what may be making you feel he looks older as, as you say, he’s been through a hell of a lot the last few years and still ongoing. Enough to make anyone craggy 😂 he’s fighting on all fronts and sees the way society is currently structured as a major issue so I get why he’s turned a little bit more aggressive and grumpy. Still an incredible mind though and I have utmost respect for him.
Your suggestions sound similar to Sally Fallon Morell. Her foundational principles are those of biblical days. She is pretty spot on in my book!! Although I am not opposed to anyone searching out what may benefit them for a short period of time. I think as with fasting, some meal plans should be for short term. Sally Fallon Morell's principles are for life. 💕
We’re all different and I steer clear of any massive claims made by specific diets - there’s so much hype and my god we want to believe! Well, I believe my ancestors lived in the trees and ate lots of fruit and nuts because I adore both and absolutely thrive on them! I get sick on meat and lose a lot of sleep so I save eating it for when the hunters return with something tasty. But that’s just me. My gut is as different from yours as my fingerprints. Apparently rats and pigs have strongly different preferences too, so good luck with your experiment. You may be interested to read “The ethical carnivore” - by a woman who only ate the meat she killed herself for an entire year (had advantage of being from a farming family!) And road kill is generally less toxic than our hormone-pumped factory farmed animals.
Thanks for input rainfern. Yes we are all different so it’s highly unlikely that one specific way of eating will work for everyone. Just hoping that this way is going to be a hit. Only one way to find out.
I lost 3 kgs in a week on the carnivore diet but had to stop due to increased AF episodes and flutter. I made sure to increase fluids, sodium and potassium but cutting out carbs altogether seemed to piss my AF off even more. In other Carnivore diet forums you’ll find palpitations/ irregular heartbeat and ectopics are very common questions and it always mostly happens in the first week when starting the diet. I really wanted the carnivore diet to work for me because I was losing weight and my partner is on it and I really just enjoyed the meals.
At the end of the day it just depends on how bad your AF symptoms are and how long before your AF settles while you’re on the diet. My AF is very symptomatic so I could only tolerate a couple of days of AF before I gave it up. After some research I found that the Mediterranean diet is the safest diet for me to be on. Anyway good luck and keep us updated.
I have not done the carnivore but lost a lot of weight on keto and you cut out sugar, low carb but berries and veg ( most but not all) are included. Worth watching why sugar is so bad for you - That Sugar Film - on Amazon.
You can have salad, brcolli, most veg I think. Fruit - blueberries, rasberries. Google keto or buy the book. It is mostly protein and fat and no sugar, low carbs.
Yeah I’ve not looked into keto too deeply but I know it’s all about low carbs and keeping your body in ketosis. I’m aware of the claimed benefits of it too. Just struggle to understand how you’d keep yourself in ketosis if you were eating a lot of fruit and veg some of which are high in carbs? And by you I mean people in general not you personally. I will have to look further into it if this doesn’t work out.
Elli86 - I've no personal experience of the diet so my response focused on my own fat intake and ensuing gall bladder problems is probably only tangentially relevant at best, esp since you'll have looked at all the pros and cons yourself. We're all different, so until we've experienced it ourselves, regurgitating all the internet "wisdom" or what appears to be common sense or whatever, probably isn't helpful or relevant. As a veteran athlete (thrower) I often resorted to increased intake of high fat foods such as cheese and butter to put weight on, but after a few years of doing this I ended up with gall bladder problems which eventually went chronic and required its removal. We're not all susceptible to gall bladder issues but just in case there's a history of such in your family I'd be wary of any diet that involves a high fat intake, though, admittedly, a meat only diet needn't be excessively high in fat. Only one suggestion to offer after that: your liquid intake might not be high enough at the moment. If it works for you, please let us know. Wishing you well, whichever direction you go.
I think that the The Paleo Solution: The Original Human Diet ( by Robb Wolf), is fine, as that includes vegetables as well and only excludes later farmed and processed foods, but living on just meat and fish will exclude a lot of nutrition that your body needs. Our bodies have not evolved to live on a Carnivore Diet either. Monkeys never lived on just meat and fish. They always ate anything and everything that didn't make them sick.
My son has been on the Paleo diet for years despite having coeliac disease and having part of his bowel removed. He does a lot of weight lifting as well. He does drink a lot of alcohol though which I keep telling him is not good for him. He does a lot of great cooking though and always uses the best ingredients money can buy. I tried it for a while (until I went Vegan) and found it very good. I'm so old now I've decided it's OK to eat what I feel like occasionally, so every so often I take my wife out and we eat what we fancy on the menu. My personal favourite is Sushi as it has the only hot spices I'm not allergic to. Hers is curry. I'm allergic to chilli though.
I'm reminded of the Canadian trappers who tried to live on a diet of rabbits (because they were easy to catch) and nothing else, they all died because rabbit is the only meat that lacks essential vitamins that the body must have.
No way would I try the Carnivore Diet personally, as I want to live as long as possible and have more respect for my body than to try it. Also I want to be as environmentally responsible as I can possibly be, and that diet is totally environmentally irresponsible.
I just have to say , regarding monkeys - I live in KZN South Africa, where Vervet Monkeys raid your house if they get the chance. Naturally they take any bananas and fruit you have on display, but they also love bread (they know how to open bread bins) and you cannot put bird seed out for the wild birds, because they will eat every grain of that. They get their meat and protein by raiding bird's nests for the eggs and fledglings - it is not a pleasant sight seeing them sitting on your garage roof with the legs of a baby thrush hanging out of their mouth - but that is nature !
I was talking about the evolution of monkeys and there were no humans living at that time as we evolved from monkeys. Sorry if I did not make that clear.
I tend to agree with CDreamer and Autumnleaves here. I do not think it is a good idea to cut out altogether any food groups and would even go as far as sugar as a bit of cake or a good dessert every now and again is good for the morale! On the other hand I do not agree with the meat is bad for you brigade as the studies that tout that never distinguish between real meat and processed meat but lump them in together. Nor do they distinguish between intensively raised meat ( fed on grain and pumped full of antibiotics) and organic pasture fed meat.I do not think there is much evidence for our ancestors eating a carnivore diet. If you look at the diet of Native Americans as described by early explorers they varied greatly but even the Plains buffalo hunters ate tubers and wild onions as well as berries. Pemmican a food used for travelling and winter stores was made with crushed dried berries and pounded dried meat. They also prized stuff like raw liver sprinkled with fresh bile directly after the kill which sounds revolting to many people now but is probably very nutritious. I am aware of the " plants have evolved poisons as they don't want to be eaten" theories but would point out that many fruiting plants rely for their propagation on birds eating the berries and then depositing them along with a bit of fertiliser elsewhere. If you are feeling crap on any particular diet it is time to reassess it. I would be disinclined to continue with it longer than 2 weeks and if it is constipating you that alone will make you feel crap.
Thanks for the input auriculaire. In depth as always 🤣 most people report the first few weeks being rubbish while your body adapts. So I’m not overtly worried about it. Seem to have picked up today and turning the corner. Will see how it progresses over the next few days and go from there. I’m not going to hold to it religiously but listen to my body. If it doesn’t work for me then so be it.
And I bet your mental health benefits from this approach to food too! Restrictive diets can be both a symptom and a cause of eating disorders, which are a mental health disorder. Many people, particularly women, have some degree of disordered eating these days and it’s not good for anyone’s physical or psychological wellbeing. Restrictive diets are always a red flag.
Hi Elli, I have paroxysmal AF and a long history of ulcerative colitis. Recently, not just one but 2 friends have reported to me that their ulcerative colitis is much improved on the "meat diet" (as one put it). No idea how strict they are. But when I increase meat & eat slowly, ie., 3-4 ounce servings at a meal, my UC improves; and when my UC is under control, I have much less AF... prob. due to less gas & disturbance of the vagus nerve. So in that way, more meat ends up decreasing my AF.
But I am definitely not meat-only. For 30 yrs I have eaten organically & I live in a rural area in Kentucky, so I eat pasture raised or organic meats, eggs, chicken, & wild-caught fish, & also organic veg (esp. arugula, asparagus, green/red peppers, green beans) though I eat more protein than veg. I eat pasture-raised butter, organic olive oil & coconut oil, & have not had any gall bladder problems w/ these. What meat I can't source locally I order from Good Ranchers, which is pasture-raised. I also decrease AF when I don't overeat at any one meal--and we just discovered I have gluten issues, so that will cut down bread & grains even more. (Numerous people report that gluten triggers AF.) For me, balancing the increased meat with some veg prevents constipation.
Re ectopics, which are worse than afib, get rid of mine w/ slow breathing, pursed-lip exhalations. And hope some version of the "meat diet" eventually works for you! Cheers, Diane S.
Hi there. Sorry I seem to have missed your post. Some interesting information there. Thanks for the input. I may end up eating very similarly to how you describe. Probably still meat heavy, meat based but adding in small amounts of a variety of fruit and veg. Just want to see how this goes first and If is we any benefit from it. I haven’t had gluten for over 3 years now either myself. Seemed to help but nowhere near as much as my elimination diet. That was a totally different experience for me. So gutted it didn’t work out in the end but determined to make it work this time 💪
youtu.be/4WyhcJBh8kE?si=Ewx.... I’ve been on the carnivore diet for a little over 2 years. The hardest part for me was the addiction to sugar. And I am here to say for a fact that it has made a world of difference in my health. and I have lost over 60 pounds.it made a huge difference in my a fib. Just so happens, I just went for a check up and doctor was amazed at the results of blood work.
you will find a lot of people who are misinformed about this way of eating.
What blood works are you referring to? This way of eating is ok and it may have been how humans used to eat as cavemen but our bodies have evolved and this diet is no longer for everybody. YouTube Drs you will say what you want to hear for views. Also most of them are not cardiologists or most importantly electrophysiologists.
This video is a lot of hype by someone using the same tactics as a religious convert. I could post a lot of equally quasi-religious, “scientifically proven” videos propounding a vegan diet, but I thought this forum was above all this.
Veganism at this point is a religious cult. People can eat what they want and no one should push a specific diet on anyone. Some animals eat fruit and veg and others kills each other brutally to eat meat. Just the way it is.
How diets change over time, culturally, is completely fascinating. I got SO much flack from meat eaters when I was a vegetarian in the 70s and 80s - I mean really some horrible things said to me. Now it’s the norm and I’m just waiting for my fish and chips to arrive!
Sure. And meat these days. I never understood how people can say they’re vegetarian but still eat fish. Just cos fishes don’t have legs! I just can’t eat much of either , but do feel vastly better when I get a good proportion of protein.
🤣🤣 yes that is exactly where I was headed as I don’t understand it either 🤷♂️ to be honest I don’t understand the ethical viewpoint of vegans either because plant life is alive too. Just because it doesn’t make any noise when you rip it to shreds apparently it doesn’t matter 🤷♂️ stupid in my view. But each to their own I guess. As long as someone doesn’t fall into the psycho category of vegans and try to force everyone else to eat that way. However these people are harder and harder to find nowadays 🤣
I have yet to meet a single vegan who tried to force anything on me and I know many. It’s a personal choice. Having ethical concerns doesn’t mean anyone is forcing you to have the same ethical views. Personally I’d never buy factory farmed meat but that doesn’t make me judge others. And I’m also sensitive to pulling up weeds on the allotment!
I only know one vegan but she does it for health reasons only. Even still every time we see her that’s all she can talk about 🙄 it gets incredibly boring. Outside of that to be fair my only interaction with open vegans is through the news/media so maybe I have a warped view 🤷♂️ I’ve just seen many of them behaving crazily and have made assumptions on this I guess. Still doesn’t make sense that they’re happy to kill plant life on a mass scale, something of which supports human life but don’t want to kill animals. But each to their own as I said as long as it’s not pushed on me.
I’ve known many vegans and vegetarians over the years and like you, I’ve never experienced anyone trying to force anything on me, or any zealotry or anything like that. I have plenty of vegan-friendly recipes that I cook on the regular, and they are absolutely delicious. It’s also a great way of reducing my iron levels, which means fewer venesections which are not exactly enjoyable and not without risk. There’s also the increased risk of arrhythmia and cardiomyopathy in people with haemochromatosis because of iron deposition in the heart. So a predominantly (but not exclusively) plant based diet works for me. My haematologist told me “whatever you’re doing, keep doing it”. We have one committed vegan in the family and when we have a gathering I’m more than likely to come away with some new recipe ideas. There’s plenty of experimentation to try especially if you like curries and tagines. So it depends on your approach to food. If you think what you can add to your repertoire rather than cutting things out, you’ll find that the possibilities are limitless.
I have one friend who perceives vegans to be “ramming it down her throat” (her words) but she doesn’t even know any vegans, and interestingly, her diet is very restricted by her extreme fussiness and aversion to anything other than bland tasting foods. If anything, she could benefit from being a bit more curious and willing to experiment.
If someone is fit, healthy and has no issues then they are not going to try to change their diet and they’d be completely right. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. But when you have health issues and a young family to look after then you’re going to give it your all to get better. Some people will accept the rubbish they’re told by doctors and take the pills they give them without question but not everyone is the same. Some people have the determination to take the bull by the horns and sort things themselves. Does this sometimes mean doing things from left field or taking risks? Probably but I’d have it no other way. Nothing in life is a certainty although some people will try and tell you otherwise.
I’m not of the opinion that there’s one true way of eating. As far as AF is concerned I’m doing well and that’s without making changes to what I already do. I have other conditions so I’m mindful of keeping my iron levels down and I need to pay attention to my bone density. My GI symptoms have improved since I identified the foods that cause digestive discomfort and in time I believe that I can improve my tolerance. So, it’s all as good as it gets. I do put a lot of time and effort into what I eat, I’m very careful about it.
Like some of the people here, I listen to Tim Spector even though I don’t buy into the whole CGM thing. I have a low hbA1c and naturally low cholesterol and I see no value in micromanaging these parameters. I’ve listened to diabetes researcher Nicola Guess for her take on the Zoe /Levels “personalised nutrition” products and I’m with her on this issue. I follow the gut microbiome research and I’ve actually taken part in research myself, and I’m of the opinion that the gut microbiome and other biomes eg mouth biome, skin biome all play an important role in human health.
Like I’ve said many times, I don’t believe there is one true way of eating, there are many ways. I don’t believe in eliminating entire food groups because it will likely create a deficit somewhere and relying on supplements won’t have the benefits of whole foods. It’s also important to remember that many conditions are asymptomatic until they have advanced, so symptoms aren’t always the most reliable way to judge whether something is helpful in the longer term, so pay attention to your blood work, scans, etc.
Individual foods? That’s an incredibly difficult way of doing it. How do you know if the effects you witness are from eliminating the specific food or possibly other foods you have eaten over the last few days? This way of doing it seems like it could take a very long time as well.
No, not just taking out one food at a time. I eliminated FODMAPs for about 4 weeks which did bring about a decrease in symptoms and then introduced certain FODMAP groups systematically and observed whether there was an increase in symptoms. I then took that test food out of the diet, returned to the baseline elimination diet and introduced the next FODMAP type the following week, or sometimes two weeks later if there had been a significant reaction. I must stress that I worked with a registered dietitian from St Thomas’ who specialised in GI disorders. It wasn’t a DIY job. I had professional support and I could email outside of scheduled appointments. It doesn’t work for everyone. There are other approaches such as hypnotherapy, yoga and mindfulness, and there’s also an abdominal massage technique that can be helpful for some people. It’s not always about the food, sometimes other approaches are equally effective for some people. It’s a case of having various strategies at different times.
I haven’t done gut directed hypnotherapy myself but for some people the overall physical relaxation can help ease painful colon contractions. Also, for some people fear of symptoms or emotional distress over symptoms when they occur can actually create a negative feedback loop, so there is an element of breaking that cycle by physically calming the body and mind. With IBS there is a pain feedback mechanism involving the enteric nervous system and the brain, so these techniques work by shifting the body/brain from the sympathetic state to the parasympathetic state. It can be effective for some people, but it’s more often a combination of approaches that brings about results. It’s not always all about the food. IBS is now believed to be functional disorder of the gut brain axis.
Not going to lie but hypnotherapy for a stomach complaint sounds ridiculous to me. But each to their own.
Also the elimination diet you describe sounds too long winded. Obviously it would work the same way but would take a hell of a lot longer in the long run.
Not really, if there’s a stress component to their condition. Any kind of stress management technique that relaxes the body can be useful in managing many long term conditions. It doesn’t have to be hypnotherapy, it could be meditation, deep breathing, relaxation exercises etc. Many people with AF practice some kind of stress management. It’s not a cure, of course, but it can take people out of the fight or flight mode and more into the rest and recover state. Also helps some people to get to sleep easier, and that’s a good thing.
The approach I followed is evidence based. It was also available to me because my gastroenterologist referred me to it. It was helpful and it was worth it. My symptoms have improved substantially. There are no foods that are off limits although there are a few that I can have in limited quantities. It may have been an “elimination diet” but it was a temporary diet with a diagnostic purpose, not a diet for life.
I don’t think anyone can definitively say that they have a “diet for life” at any stage to be honest. No one knows what the future holds and how much more information humans gather about health in general. My reasons for the diet are firstly to see if the reported effects are genuine and work for me personally and then secondly to be able to reintroduce food groups slowly at a later date and see how I get on.
That’s true, but many people adopt an extreme diet and don’t think beyond it. Some people cut more and more out of their diet over time and end up quite malnourished or along the path towards developing an eating disorder. Teenage girls and young women can be vulnerable to this as it’s often tied into weight loss and aesthetics, and the social media influencers they follow can promote all sorts of nonsense fads. Sadly that’s the world we live in.
We’re the same Autumn, have always experimented with different foods and am delighted so many restaurants now have better veggie options too. I do think the media fan the flames of polarisation, anger and hate. With AI now adding to the manipulation of views I dread to think what the far right will start doing to those viewed as “oddballs”!
Absolutely right, and social media algorithms actually make the polarisation worse. I find the crossover of wellness into the alt-right and anti-science quite disturbing.
Sorry Elli we left the topic which is actually your experiment with a carnivore diet! No, you’ve not said anything alt-right, but I think we’ve spoken our minds a bit. Probably my fault. I hope you’ve found some useful info and support. There’s nothing like trying things out for ourselves and I hope you enjoy cooking and produce some fine gourmet meals - to my mind that has to be part of it, and sharing with others! We are all at different stages with this awful and annoying AF business and any steps any of us take to try and improve our health must be applauded. We are all pioneers in our own way, wether exploring vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, or anything in between - struggling on against all the odds! There’s no doubt though that diet plays a crucial role in our AF symptoms, so wishing you good luck!
Well said. No need to apologise and thanks for the info. Yes I’ve had some very good comments from both sides of the fence and the topic has attracted a lot more attention than I expected 🤣 I was expecting very little positive comments and to be honest there have been many. It’s been close to an even split which I’m surprised about. So all good. I’m happy. Thanks for the info and well wishes 👍
Nothing in this discussion is particularly anti science or alt right. As Rainfern pointed out, we departed somewhat from the topic. Food preferences need not be political decisions or even about personal identity. Food is food. It’s not a dogma.
a religious convert really!! No one’s trying to convert anyone just stating facts. Like Elli86 said anything that goes against the grain seems to shock people. my experience with this way of eating has been an amazing transformation and that’s a fact. GOOD DAY.
That’s all that matters rabbit. If it works for you then stick at it. Other peoples opinions on the matter are quite frankly irrelevant at that point. Proof is in the pudding and your pudding is full of meat 🥩🤣 crack on mate 💪
sorry I didn’t mean anyone on this forum was sounding like a religious convert I was talking about the video. There has been some very measured discussion here and tolerance for everybody’s different viewpoints.
Have you heard of the Martin Clinic located in Ontario, Canada? They have a website and are on FaceBook. Promote eggs, meat and cheese for a month as a cleanse diet and then really watching your carbs (good ones only and minimal ) after that. Many people swear it has cured many of their physical ailments and given them lots of energy. Run by two Naturopathic Doctors.
I’m very much of the opinion that there are plenty of things we can do for ourselves at little or no cost. Admittedly there’s a lot of poor quality information and a lot of dietary tribes that can be a bit toxic, so a lot of being able to discern the reliable information from the poor quality information will depend on the level of your pre-existing education and background knowledge. I appreciate it’s not always easy. There’s no one true gospel when it comes to healthy eating. What matters is an overall healthy eating pattern that can be sustained over months, years and decades. It has to bring us pleasure as well as good health, otherwise it’s not going to be sustainable. A healthy diet doesn’t need to exclude any specific foods unless there’s a genuine reason and some way of replacing the missing nutrients.
I knew a couple of women about 10 years ago who were following a diet called “whole 30” and every 1-2 weeks it would be all this “I fell off the wagon” talk. I used to call it “true confessions time”! But they spent more time off their wagons or whatever they called it than they spent doing this diet that was so obviously unsustainable for them. I mean, why bother? Unless they were in it for the true confessions bit. Maybe they should have had an affair and then they’d have something better to confess about than “I ate a donut”! And yes, someone was making money out of it. I can’t remember if there was a book or an internet course or something. I thought it was ludicrous following some diet with a brand name. especially they still believed in it even though they couldn’t stick to it. Faith can be a strange thing.
After having friends, acquaintances, and some homesteaders that I follow, that have much success with the carnivore diet, I too am thinking seriously on giving it a whirl!!
I have heard a few people who find the carnivore diet beneficial. I’m not really interested in following it myself but would surprised if there isn’t a facebook group somewhere who could help you with any questions you might have.
Thanks Jenny. Yes sure there is but I don’t use social media and that is my main issue 🤣 Facebook and social media for me are greater than any other poison on earth 🤣 just my opinion.
I cannot answer you from personal experience but my son who is now 52 years old has been eating basically nothing but steak with butter everyday for many years. It is the only "diet" that worked for him. Started at 325 lbs, now about 175 lbs and has been for a couple of years. He says he never felt better....
The paleo diet as it now exists is actually quite different from the diet eaten by humans in the Palaeolithic.
Archaeological evidence shows that diets were extremely varied in the Palaeolithic. Diets included grasses, starchy tubers, legumes, pistachios, almonds, and mustard plants. There's also evidence that humans were eating bread-like products at the tail end of the Palaeolithic 14,400 years ago.
So, I would suggest that a genuine Paleo diet is probably quite healthy, but it needs to include a vastly increased range of food than the modern meat-heavy concept. See:
There are studies that show that humans were carnivore too so it goes both ways. Personally I think it would be almost impossible to prove either way at this point in time though.
Science is a global community comprising serious scientists constantly exploring and refuting their own evidence. Of course there are those who grab on to a single study that fits their agenda- like the climate change deniers. And to some extent the diet industry.
Scientific knowledge is incremental. It’s very rare that there’s a breakthrough piece of research that turns everything on its head. Sensationalist headlines are written by journalists and rarely represent what a research paper actually says.
No I can’t provide links and would encourage you to do your own research but the 2021 study carried out at Tel Aviv university would be a good place to start
Omnivores eat a diet of both meat and plants . Omnivores have both teeth and a digestive system that has evolved to thrive on a combined diet.
Meat alone is only suitable for Obligate Carnivores because they don't digest plants properly but humans are not Carnivores.
I wonder did you stop all the different foods at once?
As , many people find they feel so much better after the initial withdrawal symptoms on Keto and Carnivore because they have given up everything at once not because a totally animal based diet or ketosis is good for them .
Processed sugar and other food additives are the key food culprits of triggering autoinflammatory and autoimmune symptoms from most medical studies , so often it's the effect of eliminating these which caused the positive effects not living on 100% proteins and increased levels of saturated fat while restricting carbohydrates and vegetables altogether.
If you go back far enough then we’re all stardust 🤷♂️ we supposedly all come from the sea yet none of us can breath under water 🤣 it’s called evolution as I’m sure your aware, so for me this is an invalid argument. Read the study I provided. Humans left the trees millions of years ago and began to eat virtually an all meat diet and our guts evolved over millions of years to accommodate this. We’ve only really started eating heavy amounts of fruit veg and especially wheat since the start of the agricultural age and this isn’t even close to enough time for our body’s to have adapted sufficiently yet. It’s all in the study.
Of course this isn’t all gospel as with anything else, it’s open to being proven wrong. When dealing with these ridiculous timescales it’s virtually impossible to know for sure one way or another.
Yes , I understand evolution, we evolved from Primates , which makes my comments valid , and although wheat and grains were not introduced in any scale until the early ancient agricultural period Humans ate what was available and nutritious , an Omnivorous Diet. It is modern grains that are more likely to be difficult for the gut to process rather than fruit , nuts and vegetables.I assume your assertions are based upon the persuasive materials used to validate the Carnivore Diet , and I know that you are convinced by it , so all I can do is wish you luck
It sounds a lot like cherry picking to me. Did you read the study or are you going to ignore it as you know better? You say we were omnivorous like it’s fact but as I’ve said none of us truly know what the truth is. The timescales involved are too vast and the evidence available is miniscule. Read the recent study. Maybe it will change your assertions.
Although I do feel your cherry picking comment was a little ironic as I said I don't ignore any research and I'm sorry for the delay in my reply . I read the study in full not just the summarised editorial on the University webpage. The full study actually supports my prior reading but I left a reply to Nesko below with the details of what I read so I hope you don't mind reading that instead of me repeating it.Like I said I'm happy to try anything as long as it's a safe well researched option and wouldn't cause more harm to health than good.
I have two children too and when my health conditions began to get worse my research began because like you I wanted to be there for them as long as possible. Lifestyle Diets leaving out vital nutrients just aren't the way to go to achieve those long term healthy goals.
Believe me when I say if a Carnivore Diet was a sensible option and could really help people with cardiac or autoimmune conditions to be more healthy I would triple my meat order and chuck my veggies in the pig trough.
In the same way , if a vegan or vegetarian diet was healthy and safe for my particular conditions I would have given the meat to the cat and stuck to plant based foods years ago. But that's a bad option for people with my health profile too.
I know it is a little late to discus it further, but I utterly agree with you that us, humans, are omnivores and supposed to eat everything. There is, actually, a problem which is often misunderstood - if people start having problems with digestion, they almost always try to find out what kinds of food are no longer suitable for them. Nobody wants to consider the possibility that the digestive system is no longer OK, so not able to process some kinds of food as it should be. I am 71 and, luckily, with good preserved digestive system. I eat literally everything and have no issues at all. With the time, with the ageing, we get some digestive problems as something quite normal. Of course, some of the young folks start having digestive problems much earlier, like my father did at 38 of age. All the best! Peter
I was a younger person whom had early digestive problems , only recently discovered that I have Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency, I also have gut dysmotility, IBS-C and autoimmune pancreatitis which caused the need for gall bladder surgery by age 40 , and the change in my stomach acid as I've aged has caused me B12 Deficiency Anaemia and Folate issues.Like you say our digestive systems change over time too so that can also impact on the foods we can eat or tolerate ,also it can happen as part of a chronic illness. There were many foods that my relatives could eat when they were young but couldn't digest well as they aged, interestingly if they didn't eat enough fibre most of them had a few dodgy days if they'd been to a BBQ and eaten too much red meat.
If you do have digestive problems, acid reflux and indigestion it's definitely worth getting nutrient blood tests because often not just deficient but low levels of these can also cause the digestion to be worse in a vicious circle. The tests help you make the right diet choices for you as an individual.
It's also worth seeing if any foods trigger your symptoms with certain health conditions , partly so that you can rule new intolerances or sensitivity to good out as a cause of your symptoms and feel confident about what you are eating. But even then , a varied nutrient rich diet including animal and plant food is still possible .
My Nana , for example, could not tolerate cucumber , onions or game , they caused severe acid reflux and that would trigger her Atrial Fibrillation.
Despite all of my health issues and rules I need to stick by I still eat a very varied diet and I believe that this has helped me control how bad my conditions can become. As well as helping me to maintain a good BMI. It's also helped my husband have excellent results as a Type 1 Diabetic.
I did read the article that Elli86 suggested by the Tel Aviv Uni , but I could see the editorial summary in the university website article was written in a way that made it attractive to read and order a copy of the whole study which meant the wording could be easily misinterpreted.
Luckily my old Uni chum ( he is a paleo pathologist) had a full copy as well as the professional fact check information that was done after the study had been misinterpreted in social media.
The study actually still follows standard research and states humans were Ominvores but with a predominantly animal based diet. Although we will never know if the higher carnivore portion of their diet was because of need or choice in Early Humankind. They were human after all and probably like all the generations that came after them ; choosing to eat by preference over what was actually good for us.
In the Hominy Lineage Analysis the maximum result for animal based food was 70% ( analysis of the evolving generations of humans based on archaeology findings) so at no point is it stated that they are 100% carnivore or that they needed to be.
The Nitrogen isotope study has been vastly misinterpreted in podcasts by certain Carnivore Diet influencers but looking at the studies conclusions although the high meat diet was mainly responsible this it did not prove that humans only ate animal source foods and didn't intend to. High nitrogen can come from certain other food stuffs.
The lack of agricultural tools only proved that it was some time before humans began to farm their plant based food not that plants were not a big part of their diet. Only having basic tools didn't mean they didn't eat plants , just that different tools were not required to gather them or prepare them.
And preserved evidence from forensic studies on food remains in teeth and remains from habitation sites (my friend has worked on some of these studies ) show vegetation and pollens in tooth tests and things like nut shells and seeds in living sites prove that plants were regularly eaten.
So the Tel Aviv Study was a great read but at the end of the day it's findings support the analysis of other archaeologists that early humans were Ominvores and also ate plants as part of a healthy diet.
It's not surprising it was an analysis based on the research data that had been collected in hundreds of studies other over ten years.
It's just very sad that such an interesting study is being misused by diet influencers to convince people that they can remain healthy on a diet low in the vitamins , minerals and fibre that come from plants.
I was glad I read it ( I know Elli86 ironically thought I wouldn't because I wanted to ignore other opinions but that isn't the case for me) I hadn't reported back on it yet because I've had a lot on and not been that well recently . At least my old lecturer will be glad that I hadn't totally forgotten my lessons in Advanced Evolutionary Archaeology.😆😆😆
I did read Archaeological Science for a year before the reality of the work hit home during an 8week dig on a Viking settlement in the Shetlands when we lived in a leaky caravan , it rained for 6weeks and half of our crew came down with foot rot. I changed my course as soon as I got home!😆😆😆
Thank you for the long reply and the useful information, Bee!
Yes, the first humans had to be omnivores since their diet depended a lot of their luck. If they had to luck to hunt an animal or to find the remnants of a lion's prey, they would eat the meat, but edable plants were easier to find, so they used them in every occasion (fruits, I suppose). I once listened to the lecture that the development of human brain was made possible after the humans started feeding more regularly on animal based diet, since it was richer in energy, which the brain requires. There is an interesting thing and it is that even carnivore animals feed partly on plant based diet - first things eaten by carnivore animals are internal organs (maybe because of being soft, without bones, but also because they are extremely rich on all possible nutrients). Among others, there are small intestines, full of already digested plants (grass etc.). So, carnivore animals are also omnivores in a way...
Just have read your bio, in your profile, and am surprised, with how many health issues you have to deal. You said that you had no problems until the age of 50. Is it inappropriate if I ask you how old you are now, just to see for how long you are suffering...? Peter
No , I've had problems since I was a child. It was just that I didn't get things properly diagnosed and the very worst symptoms weren't being treated until I was around 50!
I had many, many years of being misdiagnosed ( I was even diagnosed with epilepsy at age 10) and undiagnosed so I was left mainly to myself until an emergency popped up , trying to find ways to improve my diet , activity and self care that weren't really being used anywhere at the time just to try and manage the symptoms. I've had to do the research to learn to help myself and get help from medical care too.
It's involved many years of frustration , pain and surgeries that probably wouldn't have been necessary if I'd been treated earlier and knew what the root cause was to my multisystemic conditions, Classic Like EDS.
Ehlers Danlos Syndrome is a connective tissue disorder caused by collagen production dysfunction and can affect any part of the body and has made the pancreatic, neurological and cardiac complaints worse.
EDS also means that I couldn't be a vegan even if I wanted to be either .
Proving that no diet type is a universal ideal and whether you can try most lifestyle diet types depends on whether you are part of the generally healthy population , and has far more to do with your individual health profile than most lifestyle diet advocates admit.
The addition finally of Chronic Dysautonomia caused by both cardiac and nervous system problems has been the most disabling. As well as causing the AF and VT Arrhythmia the EDS means that ablation is not likely to be successful. I have had undiagnosed P.O.T.S since my teens but now I have constant tachycardia becausecif SNRT which affects how much activity I can do . As the saying goes for CDys , "Standing is my Cardio".
It sounds from your previous messages that you’ve just made assumptions and come to your own conclusions after reading the study. Not sure what qualifies you to assume that you can dissect the paper of professionals in the way you have and then conclude that your version is correct. Sounds like clutching at straws to me. But each to their own.
I will continue to experiment and listen to my body for results as results are always personalised and one glove never fits all.
These facts, among others. were also pointed out in the Fact Check analysis that was completed by a group of highly qualified professionals in the field after they compared what was actually written in the Tel Aviv Study and what was being misquoted in podcasts by people like Dr. Anthony Chaffee, they aren't just my point of view . I just happen to agree with them after reading both papers myself.They concluded that the Tel Aviv Study was being highly misrepresented in the podcasts which was doing a disservice to the hard work that had been done by the researchers involved in the study.
People involved in this peer review included leading professionals working for the Smithsonian , John Hopkins and numerous university professors including ones from Oxford and Cambridge. I assume that you would think these people qualified enough to do a peer review.
I don't cherry pick my facts , ignore facts , or clutch at straws to help promote a conclusion unlike , ironically , numerous people like Chaffee do in their podcasts to promote their views.
Although I am qualified to PhD level I do not believe in the outdated assumption that you need to have a degree to be intelligent enough to read and draw useful conclusions from research on any topic. Anyone is qualified to read a professional research paper and it's conclusions to help to improve their knowledge and understanding of their health.
In fact , it is more sensible to do that than to rely on reports on social media which are often misrepresented in order to try to build credibility for a persons products and lifestyle approaches.
Knowledge is Power when trying to improve your Self Care regime.
It's just important to be careful about which sources you get that knowledge from.
It’s a full time job, all this self care, isn’t it? I’m broadly in agreement with you, that humans are ominivores and cutting out entirely food groups is rarely a good idea, unless there is a properly diagnosed medical condition eg coeliac disease or nut allergy. Eating as wide a variety of food as possible is the best way to ensure adequate nutrition. There’s also a lot of room for flexibility. I think we have to be very careful where we get our information from and I don’t consider internet influencers to be the most reliable sources. In truth, we have no idea what these people eat, we only have their word for it, and a lot of big name influencers have been found out for talking pharmaceuticals or having cosmetic procedures, not to mention outright eating disorders. We can’t look at someone to know whether they are healthy or not, and certainly the mental health of some of these influencers is something to be considered, particularly concerning their restricted eating patterns and body image. Sometimes in the pursuit of trying to do good, people can end up hurting their physical and mental wellbeing.
Mentioning carnivore almost anywhere often brings out the shock in people lol. Have you tried the carnivore groups on Facebook? They are very busy there but I’m betting someone can answer your question. Good luck!
Yea your 100% right 🤣 anything that goes against the grain seems to shock people. What I don’t understand is why anyone would get upset about it though 🤷♂️ makes zero sense to me.
Good for you 👍🏻 There's a reason why our stomach acid is very high, and that we don't have a rumen!! For myself, I have upped protein and stopped being a vegetarian. I still eat the odd fruit and veg and particularly fermented stuff. Cider vinegar for the win too. Good luck. 👍🏻
Hi, Elli! You have so many replies that I was not able to read them all carefully, so it may happen that I repeat something that already has been said...
At his 38 of age, my father started having stomach issues (mostly heartburn) which he tried to cure by choosing only the food he could stand. After some time, his diet consisted only of boiled potatoes and he nearly died. Our neighbor, the pharmacist, saved him by giving him shots of vitamin cocktails (1950-ies). He succeeded to live till 81, but was very skinny and weak.
The problem is not the food and therefor the solution can not be in the food. My father had upset stomach, because of disturbed regulation (malfunction of Autonomous Nervous System). It is a very common thing nowadays. The causes are of psychical nature (stress), of chemical nature (preservatives, artificial sweeteners, but also new types of vax unfortunately) and of physical nature (some types of activity may cause ANS instability, like frequent climbing the stairs etc.).
But, as you said, if we do not try, we will never know... I strongly support your desire to explore and to learn, so as your bravery to do it on your own body. I did the same many times and still am researching... All the best, young man!
Hi nesko. Yes I’m struggling to keep up with them all if I’m honest 🤣 I think I’ve answered everyone but I honestly have no clue now 🤷♂️
Thanks for the messages of support and the word of warning at the start. I totally understand what your saying and I’m fully prepared to switch things up if it seems like I need to. Sorry to hear about your dad but glad to hear he did seem to recover and live a long life 💪
I did not buy the story about eye lenses getting "stiff" with the age, since there were cases that, after being far-sighted for some time, people were able to see well again in the old age. So, did not accept the glasses in the beginning and never accepted very strong glasses as MDs suggested. Walked without them from 45 to 71 yo and still drive the car without them. When working at the comp, I still use only +1,25, what is very good for my old age. The actual cause of loosing sight: disturbance of ANS, like in many other cases.
My BP got increased at about 45-46 and I refused the story that it has to be 120/80, no matter what age. I obey the old rule 100+age and am satisfied with up to 170/something. I feel well, I function well, so no need to take meds which make problems not only with how the people feel, but also to health in general (some time ago, drug producers had to admit that one of frequently prescribed and for decades used drugs for HBP actually causes cancer. Additionally, 3 of Pfizer's drugs for the same purpose were under suspicion to cause cancer - no idea what was in the end, but it can be found in the Internet). The cause of high BP: see above.
From the age of 55, I have problems with arrhythmias - first PVCs and AF after that (almost every night, almost all night long). Still not on any drugs for it, still refusing even anticoagulants. I am lucky to have almost no symptoms when in AF, so no need for ablations, no need for drugs, simply nothing. The cause of arrhythmias: see above!
I have a very specific approach to life - I am at the end of my journey anyways, so why not to research and try to walk new paths, even at the cost of life (remnants of it, lol).
I follow your case from the beginning (baraba52, baraba, SteelHeart, Nesko, lol) and admire your being self standing and your willingness to research! Just go ahead!
Sounds like you’ve done your fair amount of experimentation yourself 🤣 your still here live and kicking to tell you tale and long may it continue 💪
Thanks for the compliments, much appreciated. I try to take the bull by the horns, maybe a bit too much 🤣 but I just don’t like to passively accept what doctors tell me. Half the time feels like they just want you out their office so they can see the next person. What’s your issue? Ok take these for the rest of your life….. no thanks! For me there’s always an underlying cause for everything and I’m determined to find out what it is. I’m convinced it’s my gut so I need to sort that first and take it from there 💪
I like this English expression "live and kicking"! Every language has some strong sentences!
Eli, can you write to me PM, with more details how it was in the past months, where you were not so active on the forum. Have you had problems with stomach acid/heartburn!? Do you loose weight etc.? Yes, maybe I will look at your posts and replies, to see more details. Maybe I could help you with where I have come in that area...
I don’t know enough about it to answer your question but I do know that both me and my husband did the Atkins diet several years ago and after less than 2 weeks (before the carb introduction part) my psoriasis completely disappeared. My husband on the other hand came out in a horrendous rash but I think this might have been his system having a clear out. We both stopped doing it at that time as we were just looking to lose weight but I do still have psoriasis so I guess it’s worth doing further research on the auto immune side.
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