We are told that the risks associated with COVID-19 far outweigh those of any potential side effects caused by the AZ vaccination. A question for those who may know the answer: Does routine anti coagulation, which many of us are on, provide further protection against this type of clotting or is it unaffected by our Warfarin or NOAC therapies. Thank you.
AZ Clotting Warnings: We are told that... - Atrial Fibrillati...
AZ Clotting Warnings
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leelec
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Have no idea, except to say my understanding with AF the risk is associated with the malfunction of the R atria kicking off. They seem to be talking about the vaccine kicking off which seems to be two different things. What I don't know is there any difference in the source of the clots. What I'm getting at is, I've read on here from time to time that a stroke originating from AF can be much more of a problem than a stroke from other causes. Either way ideally, any stroke needs to be avoided. But hell, I'm not a scientist. I'm on Warfarin by the way.
Ronnieboy in reply to
You have more chance of being shot dead in the street ,I don't take any notice of this media hype,if you don't want to catch covid take the vaccine.
BobDVolunteer
On the basis that they still do not actually know if it is the vaccine causing the clots or if they would have happened anyway I don't think anybody can answer that question. The best scientists in the world can't agree so why should we know any better. lol 😁 The numbers are extremely low of course whereas problems from covid are far higher. I know what I would do.
Too right Bob...Trouble is these days, every body and his Grandmar want cast iron assurances about every mortal thing. Some people in the world, don’t know if the well has dried up and have to walk 12 miles to find out.
I certainly do want to know everything Tickerprobs and make no apology for it. Knowledge is power and had our forbears, including my grandma, sat back content with their lot, we’d all be looking for a well! 😍
Well leelac...I agree very much with you but there sometimes comes a point where you need to take the plunge. BTW, surely your poor old Grandma wasn’t a well digger ‼️‼️🤣
That is my assumption leelec. I agree with Bob - nobody really knows the full story of how and if the vaccine is involved. My attitude is that I have probably a few million times more risk of serious illness or death from COVID than from the vaccine - so my second jab is on Monday and I'm looking forward to getting it done.
As I understood today’s press conference, the MHRA accept a link between AZ vaccine and an immune type low platelet problem which can lead to clots paradoxically. These are treated with anticoagulants. The risk is incredibly rare. I don’t know the answer to your question.
Sorry, I seem to have password problems between my phone and desktop. I am leelec, the author of this thread (despite what my profile might say now!) I think the point and direction of my question has been missed. Of course we don't know yet whether or not the clotting is caused by the vaccine and the risk analysis is, for most people, a simple one. With these 'clotting' deaths averaging 4 in a million, vaccination against a disease which can kill many hundreds per million has to be preferable to 'no vaccine'. My question was aimed at coronary/AC medics who may browse these pages rather than those of us whose only medical qualification is having (or had) the condition of AF and taking anti-coagulation. On the basis of the description of the clotting which has been discovered and which was set out at the press briefing today, I am wondering whether or not this is the sort of clotting that could be prevented by anti-coagulation or is it a type that is unaffected by the Warfarin and NOAC therapies many of us are on? The reason I'm asking is obvious; while the risk of clots might be a tiny one, it could be positively miniscule for us! I appreciate most forum users can't possibly answer that - but I would have thought there are some wandering these corridors who are indeed qualified to respond. I have sent an email on this topic to Sir Munir Pirmohamed and, if I'm lucky enough to get a reply, I'll post it here. Meanwhile, I too am looking forward to AZJab2 later this month. Thanks to all.
My understanding is the figure is one in a million or less not 4
Just briefly, as I've answered at more length on the main thread - the direct oral anticoagulants don't target the factor that causes the clotting in the vaccine side-effect. This means that they are unlikely to be effective protection against it. But the DOACs are used to treat that form of clotting. This means that if someone has a mild adverse event of this type (it seems to be an autoimmune response), their routine anticoagulation might stave off a full blown attack. If it's a strong adverse reaction, maybe not.
I understood your question and had been chatting with my husband about this last night. Not sure if anticoagulants can distinguish between how a clot is made or whether they just prevent clots full stop.
I am not a doctor so my understanding skims the surface . Anti coagulants work against thromboembolic clots, those caused by the butter churning effect in the atria. But are not as effective against clots caused by platelets sticking together eg non AF strokes . That is why for secondary prevention of a non AF stroke, or heart attack, patients are not given anti coagulants they are given anti aggregants like Clopidigrel and aspirin. Redvers put a paper on about this in the last couple of days
Anticoagulants are also used for people suffering from venous clots or pulmonary embolisms to prevent reoccurence. These are experienced by people who do not have afib sometimes because of genetic factors that increase the tendency of the blood to clot.
CAVEAT - I’m not a doctor just another forum member.
My understanding is that it is now becoming routine to give those arriving at hospital with COVID anticoagulants so I am imaging that already being on anticoagulants will bring us some protection.
I read today that people with inhalers seem to be more resistance to lung complications if they have COVID so I am hoping that the same will apply to anticoagulants.
There is still a LOT we don’t know about the virus and why some people get so sick whilst others have a mild flu like symptoms which as Bob says is confusing the best scientist in the world so I will follow the thread with interest but be surprised if someone with relevant qualifications and knowledge replies for no other reason than because it may jeopardise any scientific research they may be involved with but this is a published paper which may help answer your question.
Conclusions Early initiation of prophylactic anticoagulation compared with no anticoagulation among patients admitted to hospital with covid-19 was associated with a decreased risk of 30 day mortality and no increased risk of serious bleeding events. These findings provide strong real world evidence to support guidelines recommending the use of prophylactic anticoagulation as initial treatment for patients with covid-19 on hospital admission.
They used Heparin.
I think they noticed early on that people on aspirin and presumably other “blood thinners” were less likely to be admitted to itu . Thanks for highlighting this and the article Dreamer
Sorry p but would you mind using the correct terminology please as some people including myself find it extremely upsetting 🤣🤣 I shall now have to go and weep myself to sleep in order to get over it 🥲🥲😝
Profuse apologies ! The “BT” phrase slipped out again ! Tut tut completely understand why you are distressed 😫 😊😊
Shocked, appalled and disgusted to put it lightly! Especially coming from a women of your Calibre. I think it only right that you research, book and pay for a psychotherapist who can help me through this hefty ordeal! 😜
The doctor who spoke to our support group tonight said that patients on ac on admission with Covid stay on it and patients who are very poorly are given AC sometimes at higher doses.
It was stated this evening that stroke occurs in as many as 16% of COVID ITU patients so that is more likely to be the reason anti-coags are routinely prescribed rather than to combat any of these clotting side effects - if they are indeed AZ vaccine side effects!
Why was I asked if I was on Warfarin when I went for my second jab yesterday? He just dismissed Dabigatran!
Lilypocket in reply to
Routine question in case there is any bleeding at injection site I believe. That's what the pharmacist told me when I had my 1st injection. 😊
Auriculaire in reply to
I think somebody here has reported a big INR change after the jab. Maybe those on Warfarin are being advised to get their INR tested?
That can be a point. I saw, probably from NHS, that INR during the covid jab should be kept on the lowest therapeutic level.
The mechanism behind the clotting seems to be similar to heparin induced thrombocytopenia (HIT). It seem to be provoked by an autoimmune reaction that affects platelets, causing them to clump up into clots. Here's an explanation of the process:"Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT) is caused by antibodies that bind to complexes of heparin and platelet factor 4 (PF4), activating the platelets and promoting a prothrombotic state." So in some people, it looks like the vaccine is triggering the production of platelet-activating antibodies. Direct thrombin inhibitors have been the usual treatment for HIT.
Routine anticoagulation doesn't target platelet factor 4 so is unlikely to protect against this very rare side effect, but DOACs have been used to treat it.
Here in Australia vaccination is recommended to be deferred if you've had cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST - that rare blood clot in the brain) or heparin induced thrombocytopenia. I've had thrombocytopenia on low-molecular-weight heparin so I'm not going to get the vaccine. I'm just going to stay inside from now on.
Had my second AZ jab on Tuesday, I also had a blood test in the morning. Both times I was asked if I was on Anti CoAgs - it's a standard request when jabbing for anything, not just for covid. I had a stroke just over a year ago that was thrombolised which is why the AC. I also take an inhaler daily (for about 20 years) I do think that perhaps some of the blood clots precipitated by AZ are due to an underlying condition but too late now I've taken my chance, same as I have done with other medical procedures
Think it more complicated than that as it’s involves clotting but also platelet levels. All I know is I’m so happy I got a jab, AZ,!!!!!!
From what I have read, I do not think that any kind of anticoagulant will be helpful since the problem occurs as an auto-immune response within the platelets themselves. In a very few individuals, possibly pre-disposed by their having a pre-existing auto-immune disease, their platelets are being destroyed by their own body's defence mechanisms in response to the presence of new viral spike protein from by the covid vaccine. This leads to a condition similar to immune thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) which leads to clotting, sometimes within the brain.
It seems that somewhat similar events have been recorded with the use of Pfizer vaccines in the USA but why this isn't being mentioned I am not sure: medpagetoday.com/special-re...
Steve
TracyAdminPartner
Hello, you may find our video helpful in answering some of your questions, healthunlocked.com/afassoci...
I understand from the Haematology Society Website that one of the recommended treatments for the syndrome of Thrombosis and Thrombocytopenia which may occur after the coronavirus Vaccination ( conditions which may or may not be connected to the vaccine) is as follows..
''ANTICOAGULATEwith non-heparin-based therapies such as DOACs ''
So logically it would seem that those of us taking DOACS may have a degree of protection but only the experts can tell us that 
.
I will try posting a link to the file,.
chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/b-s-h.org.uk/media/19512/gu...
My understanding is that mostly younger women are at risk and the risk is exceedingly small but to mitigate that risk the UK are giving under thirties the Moderna vaccine. Otherwise the risk is around one in a million. Long haul flying is far more dangerous. I would get the jab.
..so would I get the vaccination and indeed I have had my first one ,the second can't come fast enough
The very rare blood clots which may be associated with vaccines are called CVST. It is treated with heparin and patients usually go onto warfarin INR 2.5. So to answer your question, warfarin and possibly DOACs may provide some protection. I imagine that is something they'll be watching out for and treatment will improve so it'll just be one of those things that can just be managed.
With the Pfizer vaccine, there is an allergic reaction in around 1 in 200,000, so is more common than CVST. That might normally be fatal, but patients are kept in for 15 mins and then if they develop symptoms can be treated immediately, so it's no big drama. So it'll be similar with CVST. If symptoms are spotted by the patient, it'll be treated straight away with the right treatment.
I understand your concern and IF I were to consider the untested (not really long term tested) vaccine, I would take a helper anti-clotting agent such as Nattokinase as it is proven to be as effective as commerically used drugs in hospitals at preventing AND dissolving blood clots. I do not intend to accept any vaccine. I've had no innocullations of any kind since 1979 and doing OK thank you.
As I understand it the blood clots in question are a very specific, very rare type affecting the brain, but did exist before Covid19. Doctors also know that Covid19 itself has caused fatal blood clots in tens of thousands of Covid19 sufferers. It is possible that the vaccinated patients had current, subsequent, or previous asymptomatic Covid19. In any case the risk, if caused by the Oxford vaccine, is so small that it vanishes compared to the risk from long term health effects from Covid19.
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