AZ clot risks explained: Just found the... - AF Association

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AZ clot risks explained

BobD profile image
BobDVolunteer

Just found the following information which though I can't verify does look about right

AZ vaccine risk 0.0004%. Birth control pill 0.12%. Smoking 0.18% Covid infection 16.5%.

Say no more.

110 Replies

Indeed - puts it in perspective Bob. Had my second AZ this morning and feel grateful and thankful.

carneuny profile image
carneuny in reply to Finvola

Hi Finvola.....out of curiosity - did you have the 2nd jab in the same arm as the first ?John

Finvola profile image
Finvola in reply to carneuny

Yes, I did John - left arm as I need the right more and I was quite sore and found it difficult to reach up for a few days after the first one.

carneuny profile image
carneuny in reply to Finvola

Thanks Finvola,

I had the first in my left and will stay with that for the second. Same reasons as you.

Out of interest I had my first jab on 29 Jan 2021 and the second is scheduled for 23 April - that's 12 weeks.

John

Hylda profile image
Hylda in reply to carneuny

We had 12 weeks all but two days between ours and I think that was because of Easter!

Clarrie profile image
Clarrie in reply to carneuny

Also had my first jab on 29th January and second one booked for this Friday, 16th April.

Finvola profile image
Finvola in reply to carneuny

John - it's now 2 days since my second jab in the same arm. Interestingly, I have practically no pain at the site and I can wave my arm about freely - hope I'm not speaking too soon!

mrgwair567 profile image
mrgwair567 in reply to Finvola

Hi Finvola. Could I ask — How many weeks did you have to wait between 1st and 2nd jab Thanks. Lynne

BobD profile image
BobDVolunteer in reply to mrgwair567

A straw pole during my Probus Zoom meeting today suggests an average of 10 weeks between jabs here in Devon. On that basis I may have mine next week.

mrgwair567 profile image
mrgwair567 in reply to BobD

Thanks Bob, Had mine 8 weeks ago, hubby had his 10 weeks ago. We’re in South Wales. Thanks Lynne

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to BobD

A straw pole during my probes zoom...sounds like a line from dune...

momist profile image
momist in reply to Hidden

I'm looking forward to seeing the new film version!

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to momist

God I'm not. the new version of everything has sucked except for true grit which was awesome. Watched blade runner the other night for what seemed like an eternity of watching someone jerk themselves off to kraftwerk or something. Can't be doing with new things lol! Ah but I'll probably watch it if only to moan about it!

momist profile image
momist in reply to Hidden

From what I've read (and I've seen the trailer) it has to be better than the last (rubbish) version. Book one is rumoured to have been spread across two films, but the second film will only be made if the first is a success. At least the graphics are awesome!

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to momist

Oh good and yes you have a point the first film was really bad... I suppose they can't really do worse!! I tried watching it recently with my kids and fell asleep and then remembered did fell asleep the first time too...lol! Defo needs two films for the first book, I've not read the second. I guess its like tron...making a good version might be weird...its like a classic bad movie ...but as I said I feel asleep lol! I think I have the book in my head as a movie and you can never beat the movie you make in your own head!!

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to momist

Just watched The trailer...it does look good...the music seems good too. Also I do not remember " I mist not fear fear is the mind killer from dune...I remember that from" the tick!!" Lol! I think or else my memories are totally dissolving lol!?

momist profile image
momist in reply to Hidden

The phrase appears throughout SF generally, I don't know whether it originated in Dune or not. It's true though . . .

Finvola profile image
Finvola in reply to mrgwair567

Lynne - first on 1 Feb, second on 12 April, so about 10 weeks.

mrgwair567 profile image
mrgwair567 in reply to Finvola

Thanks Finvola , I’m in South Wales, my husband had his10 weeks ago and I had mine 8 weeks ago so I hope that their running to time We both had the Astra Zeneca.

Finvola profile image
Finvola in reply to mrgwair567

I'm in Northern Ireland Lynne where the numbers involved are much lower and the second jab was booked by the clinic at the same time as the first was done.

Had my second AZ one on Saturday, all ok so far.

I really hope I can get my second AZ. It is in June but here in France it's a bit of a mess. Yes Bob those figures put it into perspective. It's about 1 person in a million. Out of the 30 sad cases I believe 7 people died ( my data may be a little out of date?). They are now talking about a few clot incidents with Janssen too.....

Take care everybody x

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to Lilypocket

I’m france too.AZ...had my first two weeks back, next due end of may...but I’m hoping thrn to go away in caravan! I’m sure a lot of us will be off places once we’re allowed!

Lilypocket profile image
Lilypocket in reply to Morzine

That's a good gap! Mine will be nearly 3 months apart. I'll try and see if I can get it a little earlier! I want the same again if possible -don't care for the idea of mixing the vaccines 😊

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to Lilypocket

All a bit hit and miss here isn’t it. I got my Az from a doc in a nearby village, As did all my chums here, as I don’t know why, my doc still hasn’t even called us for one and we r in the list....Did you get a date, we’ve been told they will ring us end of may...I just want another AZ....and age 67 guesss it will be.

Fingers crossed this limp lockdown is finished may 3rd eh!

Lilypocket profile image
Lilypocket in reply to Morzine

HiWell I took matters into my own hands and went to all the pharmacies in my area and put my name on their waiting lists for the vaccine. Three days later my local pharmacy at the end of my road called and offered me the AZ for 2 days after. They have fixed my second for the 23 June. Now the age for anyone to have the jab with no pathologies has dropped to 55 your Dr should be able to give you the second - if he can get it!

Don't know if we will be out of this timid lockdown - the figures are not reassuring!

X

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to Lilypocket

Yes I took mattersthe same, rang other docs and when they said yes come tomorrow,I rang my chums near me to ring too...we all ended up over in les gets same day!Where are u in France?

Lilypocket profile image
Lilypocket in reply to Morzine

I'm in the Ile de France but spend much time in Normandy and Loire Atlantique.

Had my first AZ on 11th of February and the second is due 29th April, so 11 weeks between my jabs.

Got mine on 22nd April that will be 11 weeks and 2 days.

Pete

Hi Jean. Did they give you a date when you had the first jabThanks Lynne

No I was given my first and second date at the same time when booking.

Oh! That was good. Very efficient! I’m still waiting to hear. Must be patient!!Thanks Jean

"AZ vaccine risk 0.0004%. Birth control pill 0.12%. Smoking 0.18% Covid infection 16.5%".

One of the biggest traps that people are falling into is looking at "Percentages" which imo hide the [actual] numbers = a massive difference.

The Covid figure is imo a distortion of actual numbers ie of what the Astra & Pill would be, I imagine that they would be measured against 100% of takers, whereas the C19 blood clots of16.5% would be against I suspect ICU patients, thus the numbers become smaller.

In effect I would say that the 16.5% is a wildly distorted percentage, which in [actual] figures, would be much lower than the claimed percentage which tends to exaggerate/hide overall figures.

P.S. Not a slight on Bob - just my interpretation.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

Your inteoretation is wrong. Covid clot risk is based on having covid positive test not being in an ICU..you can grey he figure for people in ICU to have clots is like 80% or something...look it up. The figures are as good as any figures which are scewed...so if you don't trust statisticians and you don't trust statistics that's faienough...neither do I..they're generalised. But the statistical information on covid isn't scewed or only including ICU patients or using a smaller sample size ..the amount of people vaccinated now is comparable to how many cases we have had of covid...and sample size can be a factor for sure. But not here. But statistical isn't the only data.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

Well, if you are saying it is wrong - then you are saying @16.5% that over 600,000 people in the UK alone........would have had blood clots from C19 = clearly not the case.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

Of course not ... Lol. Increased blood clot risk.... That's what you're looking at there. Smoking increases your risk by what 13% covid by16% ... What is your clot risk? Its not that 13% of all smokers have clots... Silly. Statistics and data are hard when you haven't a clue what they're meaning. You have to really read what's being said.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

I think that it is you that is you who has to .........." You have to really read what's being said"!

I don't know what you are reading but it clearly says "Smokers are 0.18%" likely to - not your 13%.

The topic was comparing info/stats that could [not] be "verified". As such I was comparing the (4) illustrations.

If you really want to go into "Stats" then you will find that a study of 184 people with "Severe" C19, then 31% ended up with blood clots. With such a variation and with stats that are [sometimes] collated to suit, then I feel justified in saying what I said.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

OK finger must have slipped. Number doesn't matter that wasn't the point. I was epxlaining that its not absolute risk. Its an increase in likelihood.... ...

You can't verify a risk because it is something which happens in the future... You can't verify it till it happens. Then its too late.

Statiticians are a lot smarter than you seem to think. And the fcaf you think the numbers mean 16% of people with covid have had clots is kinda proof of that.

Were thou the guy who eats wheetabix believes it has no added sugar and wouldn't believe even the wheetabix website when I told you you were wrong....

Cos I hope I'm not still talking to that guy. Anyway for anyone else who doesn't understand they can look it up and find understanding rather than make incorrect conclusions based on erroneous assumptions.....

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

Nope I'm not the weetabix guy. Neither were there any "Incorrect or Erroneous assumptions ". You seem to have gone off on a tangent about stats that were not mentioned here, whereas, I stuck to the topic.

Stats guys/ guyesses may be smart, they can also [make] them what they want them to be, on that one, their moral compass leaves a lot to be desired.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

I doubt they have one. But the assumption that statistics are against ICU patients seems to be off the top of your head. And wrong. And the 600000 people would have had blood clots also seems to be a number at random. Like fair enough there is much to be questioned about statistics but the numbers you're using go criticise them are hella all over the shop mate. But thank god you're not the wheetabox guy. I am really dyslexicdispraxic so I don't rememeber names numbers dates and days. Can't remember pinch codes from one screen to the next so I have to be super careful with numbers to understand what's going on....and a lot of statistics are confusing and deceptive... But its 101 mistake to think risk represents absolute risk. It never does. Risk is always relative and some factors increase and decreases it. If you get covid it increases it a lot... If you get the vaccine it doesn't increase the risk that much. That's what you should be coming away with.... Smoking bad vaccine good. Any subtleties beyond that and wondering if one hospital had 31% but only 175 patients and there of those were in ICU but four had a jaguar and six smoked...and two were on craic cocaine...this is what figurines out the statisticians have already done ...and no they have no moral compass which is exactly why they have zero reason to be lying to you. You're attempting to apply a butchers knife to something which has already been under a statistical scalpel. Your thinking is crude. Mines not much better. I am no maghmatician. But I understand that even with adding a huge margin of error onto that....its still coming out co I'd bad vaccine good don't smoke. ...seems obvious to me that however you mess around with the statistics you're never going to make them say smoking is good. So why would you think you can mess with them to flip a low risk into position of a high risk....that's not going to happen. Whatever you do to those stats however you look at them whatever the sample sizes.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

"And the 600000 people would have had blood clots also seems to be a number at random. Like fair enough there is much to be questioned about statistics but the numbers you're using go criticise them are hella all over the shop mate".

No you are totally wrong on that one and totally wrong about me!

I took the figure from the 4.37 million that have been infected within the UK which in actual fact would be around 688,000. At the time of writing I could not remember the exact number but put a reserved figure of 600,000. On that "I do [not] mess with stats - I only deal in [facts].

Re Staticians having no moral compass of which we agree on, then it clearly indicates that they will lie, on that basis we disagree as I see totally opposite to what you are saying.

Re "Crude thinking", you are right - except yours is much worse than mine. 😂

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

OK what a re you applying to 4.37 million to get 600,000 people with blood clots? What's the sum you've done there? 16% of? 16% of 4 million is around that number but that's not the sum as I am trying to explain. Your risk of getting a stroke is increased by 16% not 16% of people with covid get a stroke.... So your risk of stoke could be 5% or if you're older maybe 20% an increased risk of 16 percent is different for the person who's risk is 20% already than someone who's risk is only 5%... You're doing the wrong maths.... When your stroke risk increases because of afib by x% it doesn't mean x people out of 100 people with afib have a stroke...it means if you're risk is 5% that 5% risk increases by x... When they say wearing a seatbelt decreases your risk of dying in a car wreck by 130% it doesn't mean 30 people come back from the dead... Out of every 100. It means whatever the starting risk is is increased or decreased ... I don't know how else to explain it to ya. If your pay was increased by 16% if you had covid what would you think that that means? That 16% of people with covid got a pay raise? No people with covids pay was increase 16%. If their pay was 5$ or 500$ then the increase is different ...hope that helps you cos I've run out of analogies. Crude as my mind may be, I do think I am correct. and if I am wrong I'd be pleased to be corrected. But you'd have to walk me through the logic of where you got this 600k number from.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

Here is probably a better explanation ...I am not equipped to explain it or understand it so you'll probably understand it better than I do if you read it written properly. as I said I can't remember figures for two seconds from one screen to the next so its very difficult for me to explain as I get the number backwards very often. statisticshowto.com/calcula...

I was surprised and pleased to get a text saying I can have my second dose of AZ this week, 9 and a half weeks after the first dose :-)

Imagine if there wasn't a vaccination ....shudders ..we would be in a never ending cycle of lockdowns as the economy slipped further into a black hole.

I don't think some people realise how lucky we are to have a vaccine readily available.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to doodle68

It wouldn't be never ending. The disease would become endemic once the people who died off were gone. We would all get back to normal geberally naturally immune and anyone dying would just die of it like they did during Spanish flu... It would be a terrible few years but it wouldn't be never ending.

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply to doodle68

Maybe if there was no vaccine the government would be forced to address other factors that it has shamefully neglected like widespread vit D deficiency in the population and early prophylactic treatment with Ivermectin. Given the info on vit D deficiency and poorer Covid outcomes was available months before the vaccines were ready I believe the governments of western countries have contributed to the deaths of thousands of people by sitting on their hands . Even worse because correction of deficiency would have no downside from a medical perspective and it would have been a cheap option. The studies on Ivermectin have been available for a few months now . Even the WHO and the FDA have moved from a negative to a neutral stance on it's use. It is one of the safest medicines in the pharmacopea with a safety profile much better than Paracetamol . Downside? Like vit D cheap as chips.

John Campbell gives a good account of the AZ vaccine and clots:

ttps://youtube.com/watch?v=vEg523B...

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to jeanjeannie50

An interesting theory of his.

Thank you Jean,John Campbell’s video excellent as usual.

Had my first one, AZ, 10 weeks ago tomorrow. Could have had my second one 2.5 weeks ago as surgery had me down as housebound and GP was coming round giving them. After 4 days after ablation last October I had to have DN out to take bloods as was “housebound” for a week. Someone had forgotten to take note off records. Told secretary I would come to surgery but sadly I’ve had to wait for appointment. Quickest none vaccine I’ve ever had. I guess I’ll get an appointment through this week for maybe next week. X

Ho BobD. Were your vaccinations organised via the GP or NHS. Wife got hers via GP at leisure centre but has no date for second jab, whilst I went via the NHS booking system and got both dates for WestwardHo. The lack of a second date and talk of a dip in vaccine dippy has her fretting.

BobD profile image
BobDVolunteer in reply to DevonHubby1

Via GP at leisure centre. Not heard yet when second. First was 1/2/ 21

First AZ jab 22 Jan - second 27 March - brilliant work on the ‘back in time’ Isle of Wight! Had only just arrived home 15 minutes after my second jab when I received an email with full details of my vaccination and how I could report any side effects. Can’t ask for better than that.

This is so surprising to me to read yall wait 10-12 weeks! Here in the states, the day we have the first shot, an appointment is made immediately for the second shot which is 4 weeks from that date. Regardless if it is the AZ or Moderna.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Bambi65

The reason (I believe) that the vaccinations are so far apart, were to try and give as many as possible some degree of immunisation due to not enough vaccine for everyone to have two shots. The UK (so we are told) is doing better than Europe and many other countries on that score.

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to john6

but waiting 12 weeks, doesnt that reduce the resistance without a booster in the 4 week timeframe?

Visigoth profile image
Visigoth in reply to Bambi65

No, actually the real world data has shown that up to 12 weeks is just as good and possibly even a better interval than 3-4 weeks

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to Visigoth

well, that actually makes good sense

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Bambi65

Tbh I really don't know why we have to have [two] jabs? If it is that safe, then why do they not (if necessary) make it a stronger [one off] dose? It is not imo right in any event, to be going outside of the manufacturers recommendations, unfortunately, that is what they have done.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

A second dose rather than a stronger done is better. You're building immunity here. Building your immune system.....informaing your immune system . vaccines introduce data to your body so that it has time to build antibodies...its like being forewarned and forearmed.... Giving your body more of the disease isn't nessisaeily going to tell it anything new. Like like sending the same text tsn times isn't going to be more informative than giving you one text .....three weeks later I remind you with another text... That helps your system remember the info. If I do it two months or two years ...we are only predicting when a booster might be needed ,.. So giving lots of vaccine to one person is not a solution.and would be a waste of vaccine. Less to go around.

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to Hidden

great info, and good analogy

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Bambi65

Thanks. Appreiciate that. I trnalsate everything into analogies for myself so I can understand things. :)

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to Hidden

I do the same thing and it drives my hubby nutz/.... LOL

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Bambi65

Glad to make your acquaintance. Its a rare thing I think. My son loves war politics and economics and I always have to translate everything into .." so if a man had a cow and he lent his cow to another man...." Type scenarios...he's very patient with Me but I'm sure it drives him nuts too. Lol!!!

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to Hidden

yep, I do the same for my hubby. Im retired now, but owned a construction co for years, so all of mine are; if my 3 man framing crew, and the 10 man crew for roofing.... etc OR I purchased lumber from X and Z had a better price...... LOL

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Bambi65

Oh that's awesome. I have been trying to do some work on my aunties house and you realise how much work the coordinator of those people does to work things out. I wish I had a framing crew or just a few gorillas who could lift stuff and be directed where to put it. For me its more like if you have six morons and two muppets what's the risk they'll make things worse than they already are. I mean Kudos if you managed to get those guys to show up!! How do you get tradespeople builders plumbers to even do anything ever. I'm so stressed out from it all and any time a guy does do something they do it wrong and cause more damage I fell like I'm in one of those diy nightmare shows. Not helping my heart ..I wake up every morning thinking about it and sometimes I try to ring tradesmen and I wait in for them for days and weeks and then I just give up. Its soul destroying. Totally gone on a tangent there but there must be a secret you know over the years. !!

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to Hidden

Its second nature to me. Got to get yourself a project manager with good contacts. Scheduling is the majority of everything in building, and two day delay (for inspections fails, repair, re-inspection) and a great crew for all trades! With those 2 particulars, restoration and construction is a snap.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Bambi65

Yes its the great crew I haven't got. I have got a good chimney guy from the Georgina society who seems to know his stuff which is nice. Seems professional and he's a fire man as well! And I had a great woman make windows. I tried to get all women but there's very few. She was amazing. I doubt we could afford a project manager its just me really. I've ended up doing a lot myself because by the time I've waited around for two weeks for a guy to maybe show up I can paint a wall with a watercolour brush or sand the floor with a detail sander. So may as well just do it. The only thing I haven't done is plumbing and the plumber did an unreal bad job. Took chunks out of walls wrong pipes in the wrong room... Mind blowing and charged my aunt who's elderly twice the agreed price in cash and god love her she just hasn't a clue. But you're obviously a woman so it can't be a gender thing. What do you ask someone who you want to do part of a job...like say you had a project and you needed plumbing done before the electrician came to move the wiring...how would you choose the person to do the job what do you look for or ask them...and of they say I could maybe come round Tuesday to have a look and they don't show up ..how do you prevent that happening cos then you've got the leccy guy can't do his thing cos the plumber didn't show. Do you say look you can have the job it will be two days work we want this done and we pay this and then have a contract for them to sign or...like how do you know a guy will show up? Its been five years of waiting on guys to show up and then just despairing for a fewweeks trying again. Five years. My aunt is now 80!!! She has no kitchen no heating no shower...I'm so sickened and I mean exhausted mentally and emotionally by just the no showed the totally incompetent the tricksters ....what do you do to orotect yourself from getting screwed by guys like that or where do you find guys not like that? Do you know anyone in Dublin? Seriously I'm desperate.

Bambi65 profile image
Bambi65 in reply to Hidden

If your close enough I could swing by and do it for ya.... Lets see, Dublin. hmmm.... Im gonna take a wild guess and say your not in Dublin, Georgia, and your not in Dublin, New York, or Ohio, or California, so that would leave Dublin, Ireland???? Right?@ Better that this to private message before someone has a hissy fit.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Bambi65

True!!

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

I haven't got a forgetful system 😂 and have never have a second follow up dose of anything in my life.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

So you probably aren't immune. A lot of people aren't. Which is why vaccinated people get things like measles etc. Tetanus.. You do need the booster shots to make vaccines remain effective. Different illnesses store the data for different lengths of time so you may not forget cos you've such a percent smart brain but your immune system will. End of.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

No, it is not "End of"! You are "Blanket" thinking which is clearly wrong. Stating the obvious, "we are all different", as such many people have excellent immunity systems which do not require jabs of many illnesses/diseases, some may require one, some two and what is there to say that they do not need more?

"Probably" does not quite cut it" and "Booster" shots are [not] necessary for everyone!

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

And how exactly do you propose we assess whether someone needs one shot or two? It also depends not just on different people but on different illness. Realistically the best you cab do for treating any disease is to use something that has worked on other people.. You can't invent bespoke vaccines for each individual... You can only say this is the average time a tetanus shot is good for and this is the average amount of shots a person needs etc. This is the average amount of time it takes for an antibiotic to kill an infection before destroying an average liver. Of course " everyone's different" but that doesn't translate into vaccinations. It doesn't even translate into any arena of commerce. I can't find a fridge that fits my space cos all fridges are made for average kitchens. They can't bespoke make every fridge from scratch to suit individuals. It would comet you millions of dollars to do the kind of testing to create a bespoke vaccination programme to fit your particular immune system at any particular time. That's not going to happen. So sure in theory we are all different but in practice we are basically and generally and for the majority all pretty much the same, we aren't that different at all. Hell we are pretty much the same as any mammal!! And how ever good or badly an immune system works all secondary immune systems require that they be given the data. Either by a mothers antibodies by exposure to a living disease by exposure to a similar disease or by exposure to an inert whole or part of an infectious disease. There is no apparatus eithin the mammalian immune system for spontaneously creating antibodies without information being present. End of. Isnt a thing. The only reason you would not need a vaccine to a disease to be immune to that disease is if you already have had or been exposed to that disease or a corrolary. Everybody else, however strong their immune system is ...will have an uninformed immune system. Sorry but there's no way around that. It is an unalterable fact of our biology. Its not a blanket thought it is just a parameter of how our bodies work. Just as you must download software to run it even if you've got a fantastic computer you can't just run a programme you haven't downloaded...whether that's as an exe file or as pure data you code yourself and build your own prgaramme with that data or you download a zip file. We just all work the same on that regard. Sorry.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

We will agree to disagree.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

I don't agree to that. If you have any reason to think the immune system works differently I'd love to know. I don't have a degree in immunology just a basic knowledge if I'm wrong please do inform me of the correct facts if I have them wrong. But I don't think so. Its not my opinion by the way ...its just my basic understanding of how the immune system works and if you have some reason to contraindicate the basics of science as they are now generally held that would be an important thing to share with us all. If its your opinion and you just choose to disagree because you think opinions can be chosen at will and adhered to for abritray reasons fisr enough. I try to form my understanding based on what we know about the world from evidence and observation. and we pretty much know the secondary immune response requires information and that information needs updating at generally different time periods...one year off tetanus...lifetime for polio.... So if you have a reasonable alternative to that most fundamental of knowledge...I'll happily hear it. But we are all different doent imply that everyones immune system is radically in argument with the established evidence.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Hidden

I refer you back to my reply of "No, it is not "End of", quite self explanatory.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to john6

To quote phython...

"An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well! it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes just now!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

If "no it isn't " is your reasoning I can't argue with that lol!

Desanthony profile image
Desanthony in reply to john6

Hard to know who would need boosters though and time consuming and expensive to find out. I have had boosters for many things during my life - tetanus for one Hepatitis and many others. I wouldn't want to wait to find out by catching the disease a second time to see if I needed it - especially hepatitis as I spent months in hospital with a very particular kind and another disease caught together whilst on holiday in France lost half my body weight and, according to the specialist hospital nearly died 3 times before they found out exactly what was wrong with me! Always up to date now with Hep jabs. The first time I went abroad (on holiday not for work) we all had a second sugar lump for polio too. I am sure I have had more boosters than other people because I spent so many years in readiness to go any where in the world at 24 hours notice but you do need boosters for many vaccinations - though you are probably right some people may still be immune to some of the diseases but I for one would not be willing to take the chance or put relatives, friends and colleagues (I wouldn't have ben allowed to anyway as I would have lost my job) at risk by not getting whatever I needed when needed.

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Desanthony

Almost every cost comes down in time once the process is up and running unless it is Pfizer🙄, I saw a headline that said that they are increasing the vaccine cost by 60%.

With silly numbers of greed pushing upwards then surely a test (if it is not already there) could be developed to see what anti bodies/ immunity that we already have.

Just to demonstrate where I am coming from; I really cannot remember having a flu injection (maybe when I was a child). As an adult and due to various occupations, all in [close] contact with the public, I've probably dealt with 100s of 1000s of people ie close contact etc. Never once in the course of my work spanning decades did I catch the flu. The only exception being in the winter of1999 whilst [in between jobs] I did catch a severe bout of flu that was close to an epidemic in the UK, all cured by "go to bed, drink plenty, take paracetamol etc.

Imagine all of the injections followed by boosters that were obviously needless that I could have had over the years. On that one - I do not for one minute think that I am the only one. In fact; you only have to look at this forum to realise that whilst many of us have the same condition - our medication is different! However, when it comes down to the flu/C19 we all receive the same dose!

Desanthony profile image
Desanthony in reply to Hidden

Some of my friends and relatives had very bad reactions to the vaccine so if the dose had been stronger they would have been very ill indeed. My sister who had covid back at the end of Feb early March said after her first AZ vaccination the reaction was worse than covid and lasted just as long. It is not unusual to have a booster vaccination at some later date for some vaccinations and this is obviously one of them. They do say if you have had covid the reaction to the vaccination is worse. This has certainly been true of the members of our friends and family who were unlucky enough to have had covid and have had the vaccine so far.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Desanthony

That's a good point. I also read that if you're reaction is strong to the vaccine that's a good sign that your immune system is really putting up a good fight. The primary immune system which has no strategy and just blanket bombs with fever swelling etc is in some people very reactive. And that's what kills people with covid...without the strategic army having the ability to create specific antibodies they primary immune system just keeps setting off bombs of inflammation everywhere damaging the person in the process. So anyone with an inflammatory condition might be triggered into reacting very easily. Perhaps? My aunt who's 80 didn't even get a sore arm! I was surprised...my mom who loves " aliens built the pyramid" shows and any quackery going ,She's not getting one yet at least. And isn't very careful either so I can only hope she's lucky. And I won't be vaccinated till the end of the list I'd say. But we are very careful. Was even before covid! Started wearing a scarf and using sanitizer when on public transport and cut our coughs colds sore throats down to nothing by doing that! So even if people don't take the vaccine if they do the other things it should all result in a good end to this. And the few who are wreckless will be protected by the others hopefully. My aunt has her second shot tomorrow so I think Ireland must be doing the older groups both shots before moving on to the next grouping. Her first one was only four weeks ago if even. So she can relax and not be so worried soon. Which will be a big stress off her shoulders.

Some experts are saying that you should not receive the vaccine if you have contracted the virus. It can be deadly.

As it is you cannot have the vacccine within a month of a positive test or having c19

Sheross profile image
Sheross in reply to Bambi65

I’m Canada we have to wait 12 weeks because we don’t manufacture vaccines here so have a limited supply. The thinking is to get as many people vaccinated with a first vaccine and then do the second one.

Hidden profile image
Hidden

Yes that looks about right.

11 weeks between AZ jabs here in Devon via GP surgery xx

I had my first via a consortium of GPs vaccinating in the same building as the NHS appointments. Was given dates for both jabs together. 2nd jab is 12 weeks from the first.

In Australia AZ for over 50s. I am 58 and cancelled my jab on Friday as just newly dx with aFIB plus have mitral valve stenosis. We currently have no community transmission of Covid only returned travellers have it so just risk of it getting out of our hotel quarantine. Still, I am unsure if aFIB a consideration for increased risk of clots with AZ vaccine. What is UK heart specialists advising? I can’t get an answer here!

Sheross profile image
Sheross in reply to AussieHeart

My cardiols said to wait for the Pfizer if possible but my emergency room doctor brother says to get the first one offered. Since I’ve had such a terrible year with my heart I’m waiting for the Pfizer just in case.

AussieHeart profile image
AussieHeart in reply to Sheross

I think I will wait for Pfizer... we’ve just bought more to vaccinate under 50s from May but if I’m prepared to wait until the end of the year (Nov-Dec) they say over 50s can have it then supplies a contingent. Nice to know that if you’re aged between 50-70 even with major comorbidities (had cancer/mitral heart/now aFIB) I’m on the bottom rung! How we value people is inequitable!

You forgot to mention alcohol related deaths ,which apparently is ok for everybody to drink.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Ronnieboy

Alcohol does increase your risk of clot too. So its not OK for everybody to drink... Don't think anyone has said its fine to drink! Alcoholism isn't contagious though so you're not going to cough and make someone elses risks increase.....

Had my first jab on Fri & all fine. (Thank you to those reassuring me about my needle phobia - still there, just have to manage it). Rightly or wrongly(?) as like a good chunk of this group, I’m on anticoagulant medication so instantly dismissed any concerns about blood clots as I would think we’re amongst the safest of groups where that is a concern. Did anyone else take a similar approach?

Ronnieboy profile image
Ronnieboy in reply to Shrek1974

Absolutely

That's upto now! What about in 12 Months. What other side effects are they going to find?

Ronnieboy profile image
Ronnieboy in reply to Finlay007

Everything has side effects,maybe if people cheered up a bit there would be slightly less,the vaccination rollout is wonderful and I salute all the people involved.

Finlay007 profile image
Finlay007 in reply to Ronnieboy

Hi Ronnie

I'm just being realistic mate 😁

Ronnieboy profile image
Ronnieboy in reply to Finlay007

And in 12 months time we will have a mass of other more severe illnesses than covid to deal with,that's the reality of endless lockdowns that don't work.

Don’t mind sharing, especially since I won’t be receiving one. Or any of you people from other countries aware of the fact that the American taxpayers contributed close to $2 billion in order to help develop the Pfizer vaccine? I personally thank that other countries who don’t have the ability to manufacture vaccines could have at least offered to help in the production of one. And if not for the smart and quick thinking of our president at that time we would still be waiting on one.

Hidden profile image
Hidden in reply to Daddyrabbit

Omg. Every country contributes taxes to the pharmaceutical companies to develop drugs not just america. Highest portion of GDP spending in pharma is in Switzerland... And many countries who don't manufacture vaccines still contribute to their research..... These companies are global entities who manufacture in a variety of countries such as Ireland where eli lilly has moved their manufacturing because Ireland is a great place to not have to pay any taxes if your an american company. So I don't know what you think is going on on the planet right now but it isn't american tac payers taking the brunt while everyone else sits back and twiddles their thumbs.

Not completely right actually. Here in France they are building a facility to produce the Pfizer vaccine .

It’s hard to explain in a message but the gist is: Countries pay for supply so money is exchanged. Australia has paid $4bn across 2-3 vaccines including pfizer (if we had the RNA manufacturing capability set up we wouldn’t have to wait until almost all US citizens vaccinated before receiving what we’ve paid for) and given our population is around that of California’s I think we’ve punched above our weight financially.. Meantime we are sitting ducks as we lag the world in being vaccinated hurting our economy from opening up. Our crime, being a small nation that followed govt advice to shield. The cost of this pandemic impacts everyone in different ways. We thank the US for having the means to create a vaccine at warp speed to help the world... so glad Biden overided Trump to join Covax initiative and countries worse off than Australia will be protected because the upshot as I understand it: With a fast-moving pandemic, no one is safe, unless everyone is safe en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVAX

Thanks bob!!! I get what you’re saying.( you’ve certainly started a debate😳😳)

BobD profile image
BobDVolunteer in reply to Morzine

Stupid thing is no debate was needed. Just an un confirmed set of numbers which pointed to the fact that these clots were very rare compared with other every day risks.

Morzine profile image
Morzine in reply to BobD

Yes Bob, you basically said there’s a comparison. End of! And there is a basic comparison of general risk.

When I joined this three years back, you, cdreamer, flapjack , Jean Jeanie , Kaz, and others , it was all about supporting the newbies and helping each other’s path when things occurred, but of chit chat, and everyone nice!

I think covid lockdowns brought out all the keyboard warriors!

So much “ I’m right”. ..... “ no I’m right, you’re wrong”.....there always seems now to be arguments.

I hope it doesn’t put newbies off.

And please........this is just my view let’s not start a debate on this......aaaargh!

john6 profile image
john6 in reply to Morzine

Not an argument - just a point of view.

If any of us post something whether it is a personal view or a copy and pasted article, then it is only right that (if necessary) that it is challenged or discussed. As for putting newbies off; we live in a whole different world that requires forums to be alive, with numbers growing on here then I think any fears on that score are unfounded.

Talking of risks, what's the risk of someone falling downstairs on their bottom and as a result finding that they used to have a peroneal nerve in their right leg but it seems to have disappeared. A bit off topic, I know.

I have belatedly read all the above! However, I am still not clear whether the MHRA includes those who have AF (or are apparently in remission following an ablation but still on anti-coagulants for the same) in the category of people in the following statement contained in their press release of 7 April:-"As a precaution, administration of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in people of any age who are at higher risk of blood clots because of their medical condition should be considered only if benefits from the protection from COVID-19 infection outweighs potential risks."

P.S. Meant to also ask if there is any evidence that if you have had your first dose of AZ without clot problems you are unlikely to experience any with your second? Or have not enough people had their second? (Had my first one 11 weeks ago and my second is scheduled for next week - help!)

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