Vagus Nerve

[D10S]

I was diagnosed with AFIB in 2016. I believe I may have had it much longer, but was diagnosed as panic attacks. I am a 59 yr old male. I was diagnosed the morning of a colonoscopy.

The day before the procedure while doing my prep to clear the stomach and intestines I started to get heart palpitations, I checked my BP and HR and they were going up and down, I was dizzy and had an ache in my neck. I believe the cleansing a clearing of my gut from all the good bacteria, minerals, and the dehydration sent me into AFIB.

So I need to find a better prep before my next colonoscopy.

A few years before this I fainted once at home and went to the ER. After much testing, my heart was determined to be fine, and the issue was my vagal nerve being stimulated, causing me to faint.

Makes sense, as I occasionally also get neck aches behind my skull, near where the nerve comes out of the skull. I usually get these aches before or during an AFIB episode.

I am now hearing more and more about the vagus nerve and its importance to overall health and the ties to the heart and the control of the hearts rate and rhythm.

It made me wonder why more AFIB prevention and care didn't involve talk of the vagus nerve instead of cardioversions, ablasions and other methods that don't always work or work temporarily.

I have found that exercises and massage to my neck can calm and bring my AFIB back to sinus rhythm. I've also used the cold water to the face, cold pack to my neck etc. that you sometimes read about.

I just believe that more of the problems from AFIB is due to the nerves that control the sinus node, than the actual heart itself. Now, this is only for people with a healthy heart. If AFIB started because of a heart valve issue or after surgery, that is a different issue.

it is frustrating that most Physicians focus so much on the heart, rather than what may actually be the source of the problem, the vagus nerve.

I did find this interesting video a while back that talks to this issue.

youtu.be/yjRqpwmRuts(Not working as expected?)

[wilsond]

How interesting! It does make you wonder.As Bobd said,if you go to a carpet saleroom yiu get sold a carpet.....

NO one in the medical profession has ever talked to me abiut anything else but drugs and ablation in regard to my Afib.I have aFlutter,not all the time, that was directly caused by the Flecanide!

I do hope the movement towards Functional medicine gathers even more momentum,as nutrition and lifestyle are most likely to blame for a lot of our AF experiences,at least those of us with structurally sound hearts.(nothwithstanding genetics of course)

I am actively pursuing these avenues,having made a startking discovery last week.I forgot to take my morni g dose of Flecanide.I didnt realise until 8pm,having had none of the usual quivers that I get in the run up to drug time . I took the evening one,but not since then have I taken the morning one.Still the same. I am om 50mg twice a day with pill in pocket if ay big events.Strongly considering asking Dr if i can come off daily dose altogether!

I was able to reduce from100mg twice a day before Xmas.

My point being, making positive steps to manage my condition seems to be just diwn to me!!

Thank you very much for sharing this. X

[secondtry in reply to wilsond]

Yes Wilson, I agree the medics don't focus on getting you off pills. After doing the rounds of all the Cardio/EP/tests and in my case Naturopath and QiGong/Nutrionist you are left to some degree self medicating. I would dearly like to get off my only drug 200mgs Flecainide per day (having been stable for 5 yrs) but I am just improving sleep as my last lifestyle change and then I will VERY slowly reduce the pills - I am talking < 25mgs per day each 6 months. The problem I have is that I know my AF is Vagally mediated and so I have to convince the brain first that I don't need the same amount of Flec - any ideas??

[wilsond in reply to secondtry]

What about cutting into half again so in your kind you're taking the same quantity?just a thought...? Xx

[secondtry in reply to wilsond]

Thanks!

[CDreamer]

If you put Vagal Nerve into the search box you will find many posts & info about Vagal Nerve. Slow breathing techniques can help but the cold water shock is excellent for improving vagal tone. There is a little book on Kindle called - How to Improve Vagal tone. I found if you have Vagal AF then any vasovagal techniques can help flip you into NSR - Paramedics taught me - they had been shown by a patient.

Not all my AF was Vagal so it didn’t always work though.

One of the other things which really helped me which was suggested by my neuro-physiotherapist was to buy and use a power breather.

There are also some videos by Dr Gupta on this forum on Vagal AF. There is also A lot of sites which focus on Vagal AF - I have to say I find a few a little suspect.

[faridaro in reply to CDreamer]

CDreamer, could you please share what is the power breather and where did you buy it?

[CDreamer in reply to faridaro]

Ultrabreath Resistance Power Breather - Amazon and it was about £10 - often used by atheletes to improve lung performance but great for improving muscle tone and strength for anyone with breathing dysfunction. Anything that helps you to control your breathing such as Yoga, breathing exercises, singing etc has the added benefit of improving vagal tone.

HRV or heart rate variability is something by which vagal tone can be monitored.

You may find this of interest - heartmath.com/science/

[faridaro in reply to CDreamer]

Thank you so much for information. I am going to order the Power Breather and also found interesting devices on the suggested heartmath website. Have you tried any of those?

[CDreamer in reply to faridaro]

Yes - I had the first Em-Wave in my first iPhone and found it incredibly useful to teach my body to get back to coherent state. I don’t use it now because I don’t need the bio-feedback anymore but I do use the HeartMath heart focussed breathing and meditation - which my doctor recommended. There is lots of free stuff on the HeartMath site which explains the heart focussed breathing.

[CDreamer]

healthunlocked.com/afassoci...

And see recent Bagrat’s post

[CDreamer]

youtube.com/user/YorkCardio...

[D10S]

Thanks,

I’ve seen many of the Dr. Gupta videos. I’m aware of many of the techniques. I’m just saddened that most MD’s are unaware of most of this. They just send you towards meds and procedures as the first course of action.

When I was first diagnosed my GP put me on metropolol and sent me to a cardiologist. The cardiologist immediately gave me a prescription for a blood thinner and scheduled a cardioversion.

I went home and researched AFIB, and scheduled a second opinion by a second cardiologist. By the time I saw her I had managed to go back into sinus rhythm.

She canceled my cardioversion, and took me off the blood thinner. I’m still on the metropolol and an aspirin a day. I occasionally go into AFIB due to various known, and unknown reasons.

It’s been almost three years, I have not seen a cardiologist since then. I manage to get thru my episodes myself. Most last a few hours to a day at most.

And can be weeks to months between episodes. Maybe 5-6 a year that I am aware of.

If I hadn’t done any research myself I would have done that first cardioversion, and by now I may have done a few of those and even an ablation.

I’m glad the internet exists for forums like this and to research on your own. I still listen to my GP MD, but I know way more about AFIB than he does.

[CDreamer in reply to D10S]

I think many of us do, so many posts about poor information which is why the AFA exists - thanks to people like Trudy Loben and BobD.

heartrhythmalliance.org/aa/uk

There is a US equivalent & advice does vary slightly as it tends to be a consensus of opinion that is expressed.

heartrhythmalliance.org/aa/us

I was very lucky when I was first diagnosed as my GP had worked as a Cardiologist Hospital Registrar (Senior Resident would be your equivalent I think) so Arrythmia was his special interest. He fought my corner with my local hospital Cardiology dept and told me when the advice was not in line with current thinking and helped me so much. I think it is somewhat naive to expect general practitioners to be experts in every condition and disease but what I do think is that more should be done to signpost newly diagnosed to reliable information - which is exactly what the AA campaigns for.

[P0rtnahapp1e in reply to D10S]

I’m guessing you are from the US. We have our own Dr Gupta in the UK who has done a great deal of research in this field as, not only is he a cardiologist but suffers from AF himself I believe.

[Breezera]

D10S, one must recognize that in the case of paroxysmal a-fib (in those sufferers where no structural or valvular issues exist), the heart inherently must have a strong and abnormal predisposition for going into a-fib. That's pretty much the bottom line. So, regardless of what the bodily 'trigger' might be for a given a-fib episode, the PAF sufferer's heart must have a certain susceptibility for a-fib to get started. As BobD has said many times, trying to figure out and avoid all the triggers that can cause one's a-fib episodes is an exercise in frustration and a pathway to insanity!

While the vagus nerve may be the main culprit in triggering your a-fib, trying to correct whatever nerve "issue" may exist in your body would be next to impossible. Most neurologists would immediately say, "speak to your cardiologist".

Note that the heart (and the pulmonary veins that attach to the heart) are heavily innervated. Pulmonary vein isolation (PVI) can very frequently "fence off" any rogue electrical signals that might emanate from the PVs. These rogue signals in the PVs are thought to arise by way of certain intermittent nerve activity within the PVs.

As info, I have been a long-time vagal PAF sufferer and my situation was successfully addressed by way of a PVI cryo-ablation 5 months ago. At this time I am no longer experiencing any a-fib episodes or ectopic beats whatsoever. Thankfully my quality of life has returned.

Best wishes,

Richard

[Hidden in reply to Breezera]

Very well said. I wholeheartedly agree. Spent years trying to figure out my AF. As I got older frequencies increased. Figured out I could covert myself be elevating heart rate every tine but not before being in AF for 36 hours. Any attempts sooner would make it more erratic and would guarantee another 24 hour wait. Also leaned robbing up the stairs 10-12 times would get NSR quickest. Usually 5-10 minutes from first flight to NSR. However the greater the frequency the more time I spent avoiding triggers. Finally got sick of the yo-yo ups and downs succumbing to an ablation 7 weeks ago. Last AF was 2 weeks ago with only one episode since the beginning of the year. Eptopics have subsided and I have not had a 2 week run of NSR in a decade. I’m thinking this will turn into a 3 or 4 week run. Maybe even one and done ablation. Time will tell but it feels so good that it’s like all new to me.

[Breezera in reply to Hidden]

Thanks pearlbob. I also spent years trying to figure out my PAF. My first several AF episodes (in my 30s) were all brought on by ingesting foods containing MSG. When I was able to avoid MSG (in all its guises) all was good... that is until my early 50s, when AF episodes would begin for no 'apparent' reason. At that point I began taking an anti-arrhythmic (propafenone) and a beta blocker (metoprolol). Around my mid-50s AF frequencies increased markedly as did the duration of episodes. Through research I discovered my PAF was of the 'vagal' variety, and that I should have been taking flecainide rather than propafenone, and should not have been taking a beta blocker. Switched to flecainide in my late 50s, and it seemed to help. I then suffered an ischemic stroke in 2016 (at age 59) which was thankfully resolved/mitigated by way of an emergency endovascular thrombectomy. As a result of my stroke the doctors put me on an anticoagulant. (Right.. why wasn't I prescribed that earlier?!). Not long after my stroke AF episodes came on much more frequently (about every 10 days) and lasted longer (sometimes up to 18 hours). Got myself an AliveCor Kardia Mobile in mid-2017 to record my AF episodes and to prove to my EPs that I was indeed having frequent intolerable AF episodes. I was finally put on the ablation wait-list in Nov. 2017 and after 9 months of waiting had my PVI cryo-ablation in Aug. 2018. Since that time (5+ months) I have been completely AF free and my quality of life has been restored - I have my mojo back!

That's my entire AF story in one long paragraph.

I wish you great health and continued NSR!

- Richard

[Jt222]

Do you have stomach/digestive tract issues too? They go hand in hand, but then again panic and anxiety does too. I have it all and usually know when I'm going to have afib. In one of those "lucky" ones, I feel every gurgle, ever beat, and all the worry!