As a newby i have read most posts with interest. There is a body of you who think the vagus nerve may be responsible for Afib attacks. Here is situation that I would like your thoughts on.
When I play golf I have little and sometimes big Afib bouts. At work, I am a podiatrist, if I bend my head too far down or to the right I get ectopics and once an Afib. Today I was painting my clinic and felt strongly that I was going to get Afib (ectopics).
I very frequently get pain in the lower left side of my neck and lots of neuropathy there and my upper left back ?
Is it a coincidence ?
A defo trigger is alcohol and I haven't had a drink in 16 months but I have read that alcohol negatively effects vagal tone.
Am I trying to make connections that do not exist or would weekly deep massage be the answer ?
How many of us had jobs where we had to lower our heads most of the day ??
Rod
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With regards to massage, I am a Complementary Therapist, Reflexology is my main therapy. If I were a masseuse I would not want to massage you in case I started AFib and definitely not neck.
After reading some of the posts about the vagus nerve and I wouldn’t be surprised.
I had my first AFib end of May, the cardiologist recommended an CT Angiogram, which I had, there’s nothing wrong, no disease, so why? I also have SVT😥
I have started having reflexology every week recently and am feeling much better, do you feel regular treatment is good? I do. If you do how do you feel it benefits af?
I have recently heard about the vagus nerve and think there is a connection, when I am stressed the side of my head or eye twitches and sometimes the back of my head feels like a hot poker has been stuck in me, nothing lasts longer than a second or two. I feel there is a link.
There is DEFINITELY benefits, with other conditions I’ve seen almost miraculous effects. Sadly I’ve not had Reflexology for along time, we Therapists usually swap treatments and I’m suffering verrucas for a long time, but I do use water hers ant my spa, helps but not the same.
Regular treatment is advised with any long term condition to keep it under control. The vagus nerve is very important to work upon as a therapist. You can find a therapist near you by looking at The Association of Reflexologists.
Thank you , my reflexologist is marvellous and knows about the vagus nerve, she also gives my hands treatments & does lymph drainage on my hands.
I hesitate to say it but the regular treatment has helped me feel better & have more energy and also focus on me time, therefore making me less stressed as taking a nore systematic approach helps.
Could you have your hands treated instead of feet?
No, feet are best because different energy channels are linked to different systems. Energy channels called Meridians. We mainly use hand when cannot use the feet.
Some people think the spine has an affect on AF and I remember a violinist who found playing brought on events so nothing is impossible regarding neck problems.
A couple of months ago I I sometimes very randomly get pins and needles in my left rear shoulder! (I play golf twice a week)Trapped nerve in the neck?? Physio recommended repositioning posture i.e. Sitting up properly with better upright positioning! Still have occasional pins and needles - I wonder if this is connected to my AF episodes and golf??
G'day Rod,
I had some 2 and half years of palpitations prior to AF mugging me in Jan 2010. The day AF hit I felt as if I'd got 'flu symptoms, I had -initially anyway, no cardiac symptoms - however as the day progressed my BP went ballistic and by the time it had dropped to 76/50 with an increasing HR I decided a phone call to my GP was necessary.
However, at the very start leading up to 'flu symptoms I had been sitting in a lowish arm chair, bent over my shredding machine shredding personal stuff.
Now that I have slipped disgracefully into my dotage and I have more time and have - in the context of the vagus nerve - an interest in exploring things I have identified both a back connection and a food connection going back to my mid 30's, some 40 years ago. Both issues have worsened over time. One lower back issue has been 95% fixed as a result of having a right knee replacement. Job done. Cause was osteoarthritis in right knee. However, this was throwing out of kilter my skeletal geometry and affecting my right sacrilliac joint, so the knee replacement enabled the very clever surgeon to realign my right leg. Osteoarthritis has now moved around and now has been confirmed as being in my neck and right shoulder.
So, I have both a food issue for which my treatment has been to consult a Nutritionist and an OA issue in my back/neck. However, I can also trace an AF genetic link (just to toss a spanner in the works) on my fathers side of the family going back to my paternal grandfather.
Nowadays I have regular Chiropractic treatment (just maintenance as they call it) on my neck and spine generally which enables me to maintain free movement and remain fairly pain free. I also wear, and have done so for decades now, varifocal lenses in my spectacles and those of you who have a similar feature will understand what they do to the way you hold your head, a very, very heavy part of the body. So, here we have another aspect to the neck/back conundrum.
So what can I say ..... yep, the vagus nerve is at play here, inflamed or dysfunctional or whatever ... its an issue for me. I cannot say that it purely food issues, nor can I say its spinal issues BUT I can say that by watching my food intake and having regular spinal maintenance I restored a QOL that the initial years of AF had removed from me.
I suggest, if you haven't already done so you go into Google and search for " vagus nerve schematic diagrams" then you can see just where the VN extends to. It is the body's great brain/organ communicator - an information superhighway between the brain and many organs or body systems including the heart and the digestive system and it is being more widely accepted now that the gut is the body's second brain. Note how the VN wends its way in through the spine.
Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your position most modern western medical professionals/ clinicians are concerned about restoring QOL, not enough international research is being undertaken into this vagus nerve link.
Personally I feel it accounts for more modern medical conditions than we fully understand.
I agree and about to google vagus nerve schematic diagram which you suggested. Its almost as if its being pinched when chin to chest or turned. Also i have noticed when i inadvertently touch neck lightly that it precipitates either an ectopic or missed beat
Have you ever seen an Alexander Technique practitioner for your lower back problem?- I'd been seeing a chiropractic person for ages when we fell out over some machines he introduced and I went to an Alexander Technique person with whom I relearn how to walk etc and now I am fine and have been for many years, only recently needing a couple of sessions following an unpleasant fall. Of course, we are all different and need to find a practitioner who we feel comfortable with but just a thought- hope yu don't mind the suggestion. I've found the vagus nerve influences my odd AF episodes and am getting to avoid them by avoiding troubling it!
in reply to
Hi there,
No, I haven't considered this approach. Over the years I have been treated by both Osteopath and Chiropractor and on balance I felt the Osteopath gave me better result. Her approach to manipulation was , lets say, aggressive. Since those days I have moved and, long story short, I have found a Chiropractor who in terms of manipulation is also fairly aggressive. This aggressiveness seems to suited my issues.
However, most of my problems have been minimised since my knee replacement surgery. It would seem my skeletal geometry on my right side worsened ever since my right knee cartilage was removed back in 2000. From that point OA worsened and so did my right side alignment and in particular with the right sacrilliac joint, which in itself contributed to the lower back pain. So, with the right knee replacement came a surgical realignment of my right side skeletal structure once the new spare parts had been placed into the right knee. These days my right leg is about the same length as my left and indeed if there is any difference it would only be around 2 to 4 mm one way or another.
So for now at least, I keep going with some sort of regular maintenance from the Chiropractor. Anyway, thanks very much for the suggestion about the Alexander Technique, if things worsen, I'll see if I can find a local practitioner. Basically, the root cause of my skeletal issues has been OA, which as I have aged has worsened and is now affecting neck and right shoulder.
John
in reply to
Glad you took my suggestion so well - I was a bit apprehensive as you have actually had fairly crucial problems- the thing is that we often tense up when stuff happens and in such ways cause much of the pain ourselves and Alexander Technique helps undo things. It was like a miracle for me after visiting physiotherapists, chiropractors and a Mctimoney chiropractor over years!! But it's what works for you and the relationship with the practitioner, as with all therapies. My dad had arthritis so I did everything to avoid it- healthy eating and yoga, pilates and now Tai Chi and take glucosamine and so far I've been successful at warding it off. I'm trying that approach with the paroxysmal AF too and having worked out my triggers am managing to stay episode free - well have done for eight days now!!! Fingers crossed- boasting may bring one on!!
I experienced vagal AF with PoTS and very low BP so I know it was Autonomic Dysfunction and indeed it was well documented in hospital as when I was lying perfectly still - no AF. I tried to sit up and bang - AF with a HR of 180 and drop in BP to unreadable with all the alarms going off.
I would look at seeing a very well qualified and experienced Chiropractor and then do some rehab on posture and for after practice Pilates. I have deep tissue massage with fascia release once a month and it has never brought on AF but an adjustment from the Chiropractor has - but then again he immediately corrected. My Chiro has also brought me out AF and was the first to diagnose my Myasthenia. I have done a lot of work on toning my vagus nerve and believe it is no longer a trigger.
You can have just vagal AF, none vagal AF or a mix and I and my EP believe I had a mix.
Vagal triggers:-
Any stress or inflammation
Sleeping position
Exercise
Sitting
Bending
Eating - stomach full
Certain foods
Alcohol
Coffee
Mine were stress, sleeping position, over exertion, moving immediately after I had eaten.
I get exactly the same in my last two bouts of irregular fast heart rate post ablation, I’m lying down and heart ticking nicely and as soon as I get up bang tachayrdia and irregular heart beat just don’t get it
I do think mine is vagal but try expalining that to my cardio. I told him I have a desperate and very frequent need to pass urine when I go into or am close to Af. He said nothing to do with it and prob my prostrate. So vagal Af I suspect he will laugh.
Frequent peeing is a classic symptom of AF - it is called - something I can’t just now recall - but it is a very well known symptom and caused by the following:-
atrial natriuretic peptide (ANP; atrial natriuretic hormone) A peptide hormone, produced by certain cells in the wall of the atrium of the heart, that promotes the excretion of sodium ions in the urine (i.e. natriuresis). Secretion of ANP is triggered by increased stretch of the atrial wall, due to raised blood pressure or increased blood volume. It acts to inhibit sodium reabsorption in the kidneys and the secretion of aldosterone by the adrenal glands. Consequently, sodium losses to urine are increased, and water follows by osmosis, thereby decreasing blood volume and blood pressure.
No - I don’t take Bisoprolol - I am unable to take any heart rate or rhythm drugs. Many people struggle with Biso but it seems to help about 50% (not a scientific stat!) of AF’ers, as far as I can tell - but ONLY if they have fast AF.
I am pretty sure I had vagally mediated AF and like AF itself the Vagus Nerve can be affected by many things as CDreamer mentions. Posture is a big one, stress another and gastro issues another; on the latter I would reduce gluten intake by 80% and then next sugar by 80% and see if either help. Good luck.
Dysfunction of the autonomic system - which regulates all automatic bodily function, heart rate, BP, digestion, fight flight response etc.
You can have 3 types AF - vagal, none vagal & mixed.
If you can identify triggers such as AF when you exercise or stopping AF with exercise or postural or digestive there will be at least an element of vagal AF.
People with vagal AF don’t respond well to beta blockers.
Ah! That's very interesting- I couldn't take the lowest dose of Bisoprolol though do take it on the occasions (getting rarer) when I do get an AF episode, if the flecainide I take as a PIP has failed to bring my heart rate under 140 within 20 minutes. It's ok then though I do feel tired for quite a while afterwards! I am being very nice to my vagal nerve and trying not to rush or panic and so far so it is working well!,
And bending over has brought on episodes in the past so now always careful to bend at the knees and have stopped doing one of the exercises given by a nice physio for the pain in my right shoulder as that brought on the last episode I had when bending from a sitting position several times- eight days ago now and ok since but mustn't boast!
Well forward head posture is a modern phenomenon, people looking down at phones, PC,s etc could be a link there, FHP definitely contributes to sleep issues which in turn can cause AF....
How about turning the head to the left fir a period of time? That always makes me feel strange if I do it for a long time, though once it was to the right, made me feel sick & dizzy. Or am I clutching at straws?
Weird, but Afib is like that. Try this to see if it helps you:
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After 9 years of trying different foods and logging EVERYTHING I ate, I found sugar (and to a lesser degree, salt – i.e. dehydration) was triggering my Afib. Doctors don't want to hear this - there is no money in telling patients to eat less sugar. Each person has a different sugar threshold - and it changes as you get older, so you need to count every gram of sugar you eat every day (including natural sugars in fruits, etc.). My tolerance level was 190 grams of sugar per day 8 years ago, 85 grams a year and a half ago, and 60 grams today, so AFIB episodes are more frequent and last longer. If you keep your intake of sugar below your threshold level your AFIB will not happen again (easier said than done of course). It's not the food - it's the sugar (or salt - see below) IN the food that's causing your problems. Try it and you will see - should only take you 1 or 2 months of trial-and-error to find your threshold level. And for the record - ALL sugars are treated the same (honey, refined, agave, natural sugars in fruits, etc.). I successfully triggered AFIB by eating a bunch of plums and peaches one day just to test it out. In addition, I have noticed that moderate exercise (7-mile bike ride or 5-mile hike in the park) often puts my Afib heart back in to normal rhythm a couple hours later. Don’t know why – perhaps you burn off the excess sugars in your blood/muscles or sweat out excess salt??
Also, in addition to sugar, if you are dehydrated - this will trigger AFIB as well. It seems (but I have no proof of this) that a little uptick of salt in your blood is being treated the same as an uptick of sugar - both cause AFIB episodes. (I’m not a doctor – it may be the sugar in your muscles/organs and not in your blood, don’t know). In any case you have to keep hydrated, and not eat too much salt. The root problem is that our bodies are not processing sugar/salt properly and no doctor knows why, but the AFIB seems to be a symptom of this and not the primary problem, but medicine is not advanced enough to know the core reason that causes AFIB at this time. You can have a healthy heart and still have Afib – something inside us is triggering it when we eat too much sugar or get (even a little) dehydrated. Find out the core reason for this and you will be a millionaire and make the cover of Time Magazine! Good luck! - Rick Hyer
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