Probiotics?

[JudyMarieC]

My doctor recently suggested that I try a probiotic supplement to deal with stomach bloating. I'm wondering if this would influence my afib in any way. Has anyone had experience with probiotics - either positive or negative?

[Finvola]

I took probiotics in desperation after months of gut upset from a course of antibiotics. After six weeks and no effect on my arrhythmias, the gut symptoms disappeared and haven’t returned. I take Flecainide, Apixaban and (at that time) Bisoprolol without noticing any adverse reaction. In fact, the constant gut trouble affected me very badly and I lost a lot of weight and was dehydrated.

Whether the probiotics worked or the gut righted itself, I don’t know, but you have nothing to lose by trying. I took my morning capsule on an empty stomach and didn’t eat or drink anything for about an hour.

[BobD Volunteer]

Anything whichcauses inflamation in the body can exacerbate AF so go for it. Nothing hurting as they say down yere.

[jennydog]

My brother had ulcerative colitis. The UC Society suggested Danone yoghurt. Initially he hated it but its effects were excellent so he still has it daily for breakfast. LIVE yoghurt is important. Many yogurts are sterilised to facilitate their long life.

[Hidden]

Hi Judy,

Many many months after being diagnosed with pAF I began to notice the onset occurred after certain foods. I also had a range of 'gut' issues resembling IBS and Coeliac Disease. It wasn't either.

I consulted a Nutritionist who put me on a course of probiotics ( VSL#3) and recommended I adopted a nutrition plan. So the start of this was going gluten, wheat and oats free. Over the years this widen and apart from February this year when, after sleeping on my left side and slipping into AF for some 5 hours, I have been AF free for 3 & half years.

John

[JudyMarieC in reply to Hidden]

That's encouraging, John, Thank you. My symptoms also resemble IBS and I've tried going gluten free but I'm too impatient and didn't give it a fair trial. I also can't sleep on my left side or my back. If dietary changes could keep me afib free, I'd try anything.

[Hidden in reply to JudyMarieC]

Thing is Judy it is a frustrating and demanding process and consumes alot of time. Much patience is necessary I'd say consulting a qualified nutritionist is essential. The VSL#3 that my nutritionist prescribed me was a powder taken (stirred not shaken) with a glass of room temperature water.

If you are in UK go to the BANT website, among other things is a search area which will show you a Nutritionist near where you live.

The thing is also, that, going gluten, wheat and oats free as I did is just the beginning - over time I found so much more aggravated my gut, caused massive and painful bloating and then AF. My dietary exclusions now are .......... soft cheese ( but hard cheese is OK), raspberries (strawberries are OK), peas and runner beans are out, also baked beans, most fruit .... safe with bananas tho, thick gravy, pork & crackling yet a pork steak - fat free is fine. Absolutely no English pub real ales, yet spirits and wine are no problem. (Thank goodness). Tea and coffee are no problem. Yoghurt is right out.

So basically, if I followed the much revered health mantra of - 'Eat 5 to 7 fruit and veg a day' I'd be a bathroom cot case.

If you click on my user name it should take you to posts I've made about diet etc over a period of time.

Try and stay with it.

John

[CDreamer in reply to Hidden]

It is SO individual isn’t it? The only way is to keep a food and symptom diary. I’m OK with oats, rye and spelt in small quantitites but not wheat and can now eat sourdough breads or bread made from sprouted grains but any cow dairy is an absolute no now - but I can tolerate goat’s kefir cheese - made from the excess kefir - but not milk kefir of any sort - water kefir is ok. And it changes all the time! I haven’t found any fruit or veg that upsets.

Eating out though is a complicated and with so many formal dinners coming up I am in training to get to optimum health before they start next Friday......

[Hidden in reply to CDreamer]

Yes, CD ... it's like taking a degree in Mastery of the Dark Arts ! Originally I could tolerate sourdough, but not now. Having it now would cause my BP to jump in excess of 20 points both in Sys and Dias and I'd feel so ill.

Yep, eating out is a challenge!

You know I keep looking beyond gut and diet and at farming and farming practices and the use of chemicals/ pesticides and try as I may here is where I place the root cause of the problem.

John

[CDreamer in reply to Hidden]

Certainly going organic and avoiding anything that is grown with pesticides - that includes most cut flowers and many pot plants. Scented candles is another really big one which upsets my system and now all aerosol cleaning products. I’ve gone back to using baking powder, vinegar and lemon for a lot of stuff. It is known that Magnesium in particular is depleted in soil because of modern farming - don’t know if you remember Koll? He was a farmer and said that grass fed cows suffer and sometimes need emergency injections without which they die. So many issues......the more you learn the more you realise there is to learn.

[sportscoach]

Cut out the gluten and lactose.

Take a multi probiotic with over 20 + billion (various) good bacterial, make sure its in capsule form or the stomach acid will destroy the bacteria before it has chance to get into the stomach and small intestine.

Take with a cold drink.... heat (Hot Drink) will again destroy the bacteria.

We use them a lot in sport especially when travelling to countries where hygiene is not the best, probiotics are taken 3 months before travelling to compete, its also a very good idea to take them after any course of antibiotics.

If you are having real bad stomach problems get yourself tested for helicobacter pilory a nasty little bug that can cause stomach ulcers but are easily treated with a course of strong antibiotics.

[CDreamer]

Yes, I take probiotics and it will help gut issues and thereby help reduce AF burden, especially if your AF is triggered by vagus or gut issues. It’s also useful to take prebiotics thereafter when you finish your course and your gut is performing better. I would recommend Cytoplan - it’s the one our doctors and nutritionist recommend. You want one with at least 20 billion count, as Sportscoach indicated.

I also find AloeVera helps a lot - I take it twice a day diluted with a little apple juice to make it palatable. I use an organic one - either Pukka or Cytoplan.

Many chronic issues from Diabetes to Depression can be helped by improving gut flora.

cytoplan.co.uk/ They sponsor a lot of research, I’ve attended an event they sponsored regarding gut flora and was very impressed. Nature’s Aid are also a good brand but beware of cheaper High Street brands as they often don’t have the strains that survive stomach acid. Live yogurts, fermented vegetables - preferably home made - the supermarket varieties are sterilized so not active, Kumboocha, kefir.

Cabbages - all colours and varieties, kale, broccoli and spinach and any green leaf vegetables are all essential and really good prebiotics. Also include starch resistant foods such as twice cooked root veg - ie cook, cool and reheat, same with pasta and rice as long as it has been well washed, cashew nuts, avacados are all good sources which the flora feed on. It’s not enough to just take probiotics because unless you feed them, they just get flushed through.

The one thing that good gut flora hate and bad flora love is sugar - in any form. Eliminate the sugar and within a week you should feel an improvement.

Hope that helps.

[JudyMarieC in reply to CDreamer]

Thank you - lots of good information!

[Bpsan]

Interesting to read all this re foods people can or cannot eat. Try looking at FODMAPS These are in all foods generally I think and are short chain carbs and sugars. I have downloaded an app which tells me thru a red Amber or green indicator if a particular food is high or low fodmap. I follow a low fodmap diet generally and it helps enormously. E.g who would have thought onions were high fodmap but when I cut it out I was fine and could eat the same dish which with onion in gave me tummy upset.

[MarkS in reply to Bpsan]

You're right, Bpsan. FODMAPS are considered to be the real culprit in a lot of IBS and not gluten, although cutting out gluten does reduce FODMAPS. FODMAPS include onions, garlic, wheat, rye and barley.

I have found that prebiotics can worsen bloating. Also eating too much fibre.

[Auriculaire]

A recent study from Israel has shown that response to probiotics is a very individual matter . Some people are helped , others made worse. I have suffered gut upset after each colonoscopy I have had. I am not sure if it is the prep stripping out the microbiome ( the surgeon who did my colectomy said it did this) or my attempts to restore it with the probiotics later. You can only try and start off with a low count one . Or try fermented veg.

[CDreamer in reply to Auriculaire]

The problem is that unless you get a full GI gut analysis you won’t know. My profile showed I had lots of good flora - but quite a lot of very bad flora. Taking a lot of garlic and a tannin supplement helped sort out the bad flora and I then improved. There is a battle going on inside your gut between the good guys and the bad guys and that in itself can cause problems. This area is only just starting to be researched and understood.

The thing with probiotics is that if they are not needed then they will just go straight through, as they will if they can’t establish because the bad guys are taking up all the space. Prebiotics help the establishment of the good guys. It all seems quite complicated.

Fodmops didn’t help me but it really is trial and error and food diary is definitely the way to go to see what is good or not for you.

[momist]

You might also read up on pre-biotics, which to my mind are a better way to go than pills and hope. But then, I do like onions.

[Andywolf]

I have had AF for 2+ years, I have in the last year taken 2 * 7day courses of Bimuno prebiotic and it had no negative effects.

[LindaDaisy]

I would consult a nutritionist. I have been seeing one for 2 years now and my episodes of PAF have almost gone. I started with FODMAP and excluding wheat but still having dairy. Had to take into account being on Warferin and also caffeine effect. It takes time to adjust your gut and each person is different so guidance from a nutritionist is a good idea.

[timince]

Hi Judy, just want to suggest something that I tried about a year ago after watching a video by Dr Sanjay Gupta and Dr Simon Smale discussing gastroesophageal reflux disease and natural ways of healing from GERD or heartburn. Luckily I don't suffer from either of these, but I do have Vagal nerve pAF triggered by bloating. I eat a lot of fiber and fibrous green vegetables and this causes a lot of wind. Some of what Dr Smale said got me thinking. As we get older our body produces less or maybe weaker digestive enzymes and this can give rise to inefficient digestion leading to bloating and flatulence. This sounded like me (I'm 72) and I wondered if it was possible to get an enzyme supplement. I found there are several types and brands available so I chose a full spectrum enzyme formula from a high-street shop. This has nine different digestive enzymes and the instructions are to take two tablets before or after meals. The improvement with my digestion was almost immediate and the bloating has been reduced to the point that my Vagus nerve is nice and passive. I usually take the supplement after my main meal. I also have probiotic yoghurt now and then but the good news is that after suffering two or three episodes a month there's only been three episodes in the past year. Maybe I'm just lucky, but perhaps it's worth a try.

[CDreamer in reply to timince]

Interesting - I must have missed that podcast - I’ll go look for it, thanks for posting.

[JudyMarieC in reply to timince]

Very interesting. I didn't realize that digestive enzymes could be affected by age - I'm 71. I initially blamed the meds - particularly flecainide and Pradaxa - for the bloating but the doctors didn't think that was the cause. I also suspect that my afib is influenced by my vagus nerve. I'll definitely give digestive enzymes a try and I'll see if I can find the video you mentioned. Thank you!

[timince in reply to JudyMarieC]

Hi Judy, in case you haven't found the video, here is the link.

youtube.com/watch?v=50foJL4...(Not working as expected?)

Dr Gupta has posted a series of videos about AF on YouTube. Here is one about the Vagus nerve.

youtube.com/watch?v=yvJ7KNI...(Not working as expected?)

Hope this helps.

[JudyMarieC in reply to timince]

Great - Thank You!

[Andywolf]

I notice now you said probiotic, not prebiotic. Pre-biotics work in different way and provide nutrients you can't take up and instead helps to get a balanced gut flora which from "Trust me I'm a doctor" TV experiments has indicated that it can help with sleep and losing weight amongst other things. The product Bimuno available at Boots and some Tesco extras, mentions bloating as a temporary side effect but also mentions it being able to help. It costs around £10-12 for 30 days supply and a course of treatment is 7 days, it is a powder which can be taken in drinks or mixed into food such as breakfast cereal, custard or you name it. I have both AF and GORD and experienced no bloating and my gut flora may have been ok anyway as I do eat active yoghurt quite often, most weeks and often several times and lots of vegetables including peas etc which contain low levels of prebiotic. No ill effects from either pro or pre-biotics. I know others that have taken yoghurt daily whilst recovering from orthpaedic operations, broken limbs etc and have had really good healing both of bones and wounds, probably assisted by the bacterial culture and calcium etc.

Try either or both and see how you feel, very unlikely either will be a problem unless you are lactose intolerant, and with that read the labels and instructions on.

Best wishes

[Janith]

Positive.

[Hidden]

I had a very similar experience to Finvola's. I took antibiotics (that I now know I didn't need and wish I hadn't). They disturbed my digestion for about 2 months. Eventually I went back to normal, almost overnight one day. Had I taken probiotics I would have credited them. This was in April of 2016. In January of 2018, I tried probiotics. Unfortunately, they produce unpredictable effects. Sometimes they will work very well, sometimes they cause a lot of trouble. I'm talking about the exact same probiotic, same bottle, same batch. I also had a reaction to it that I posted about and have received no replies. I've read online that our bodies are hardwired to accept only some bacteria from birth which we get mostly from our mothers during birth. If you ingest probiotic pills, our immune system will simply attack the unrecognized bacteria. So whatever effect it will have will be temporary. Some experts advise against triggering an immune response like this. My best guess is that yes, you can use them in moderation, and temporarily, if you need them such as after antibiotic use. Im my case they did not work, and I don't plan on ever using them again other than regular yogurt.