Is anyone here taking Xtandi alongside Berberine & quercetin?

[Broccoli24]

Is anyone here taking Xtandi alongside Berberine & quercetin? Some evidence online is saying that they inhibit the enzyme that metabolizes Xtandi - possibly making it too strong in the system. Just wondered if anyone was taking all 3 and what effects if any they noticed. Thanks.

[JohnInTheMiddle]

There is so much positive hype about curcumin, but they are usually pretty poor quality research or just plain anecdote or ancient practice. Not to say there wouldn't be some value there but nobody mentions that it's almost impossible to absorb any oral curcumin, and the chances of contamination of the curcumin of heavy metals and arsenic are uncomfortably high.

[Broccoli24 in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

Thanks for your answer… I hear that. I buy it from a place on the high street with a good reputation, so I hope they are sourcing it correctly. I actually meant to write Berberine rather than Curcumin… I’ll edit my post.

[dhccpa in reply to JohnInTheMiddle]

You can find a brand that tests well for heavy metals. I use Frontier, recommended by Consumer Lab after testing.

Absorbability is an issue, especially with Quercetin, but taking them with food/fat does increase it, and there are brands that at least promise greater bioavailability. Admittedly, caveat emptor on supps across the board.

[Tall_Allen]

Here's the current state of evidence on curcumin:

prostatecancer.news/2019/04...

[Broccoli24 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thank you.

[back2health in reply to Tall_Allen]

Only a very few research studies reflect such a downside to curcumin. Plus, it's 5 years old. By far, the newer studies point to a greater under-standing of curcumin and the complex mechanisms by which it's able to exert therapeutic action against prostate cancer. Here's a more detailed --and likely objective- look at curcumin: sciencedirect.com/science/a...

[Tall_Allen in reply to back2health]

Nonsense. Show me one clinical trial that I missed. "Clinical trial" means they give the drug (curcumin) to one group of humans and not to another group (ideally chosen at random) and measure the difference in progression. What you linked is the usual garbage (as far as patients are concerned) - another lab study.

[Mascouche]

I am puzzled that all the answers so far talk about curcumin as it is not part of your question.

I am on Xtandi and as you asked, I also take Berberine and Quercetin. However I've never taken Xtandi without Berberine and Quercetin so I do not know if they make it stronger or not. Worth investigating. Do you have a link to the site where you've read this?

[Mascouche in reply to Mascouche]

Here is what the Perplexity AI says:

Question: Does taking Xtandi alongside Berberine and Quercetin make Xtandi more potent?

Answer

Based on the available search results, there is no direct evidence that taking Xtandi (enzalutamide) alongside berberine and quercetin makes Xtandi more potent. However, there are some relevant points to consider:

Quercetin and Xtandi

Quercetin may have beneficial effects when combined with Xtandi:

Quercetin has shown potential to resensitize enzalutamide-resistant prostate cancer cells to enzalutamide treatment.

In preclinical studies, quercetin was able to suppress androgen receptor (AR) signaling, including the AR-V7 variant that is associated with enzalutamide resistance.

Combination treatment with quercetin and enzalutamide showed synergistic effects in suppressing tumor growth in mouse xenograft models.

Potential Interactions

While quercetin may enhance Xtandi's effects, there are some potential interactions to be aware of:

Xtandi is metabolized by CYP3A4 enzymes. Some herbal supplements, including St. John's Wort, can induce CYP3A4 and potentially reduce Xtandi levels.

There is no specific information on berberine's interaction with Xtandi in the provided search results.

Considerations

The research on quercetin's effects is primarily preclinical at this stage. More clinical studies are needed to confirm its benefits when combined with Xtandi in humans.

Patients should always consult their doctor before combining any supplements with Xtandi, as there may be unforeseen interactions or effects.

While quercetin shows promise in potentially enhancing Xtandi's effectiveness against prostate cancer, especially in cases of resistance, there is not enough evidence to definitively state that the combination of Xtandi with berberine and quercetin makes Xtandi more potent in clinical practice. Further research is needed to fully understand the interactions and potential benefits of these combinations.

[Broccoli24 in reply to Mascouche]

Ha… yes, I edited my question… I initially put curcumin, but meant to put berberine.

My worry is when looking at the Memorial Sloan Kettering ‘About herbs’ database re berberine it says ‘CYP450 substrate drugs: In human studies, repeated oral intake of berberine at a dose used in some studies significantly decreased 2D6, 2C9, and 3A4 activities (29).’

It says similar about Quercetin and Black seed Oil, both of which I was taking. It could mean that these supplements are stopping Xtandi from being metabolized out of the body at the required speed, ending up with potentially too much in the system. As far as I understand it. Another way of saying it could be that it makes Xtandi more potent… but that might be too potent?

And yes, I’ve seen studies that specifically say that using berberine with Xtandi can be beneficial as it messes with the AR receptors which means it’s harder for PCa to become castrate resistant.

Your AI thing is pretty useful!

[SillyUserName2 in reply to Broccoli24]

I take over a dozen herbs and supplements as they kill cancer in 20 different ways and that is far better than only one pathway such as androgen. Research shows that cancer comes about largely from impaired mitochondria, both in the cancer and in the immune system. All good foods, herbs and supplements boost mitochondria whereas most manufactured “foods” damage it.

[Tall_Allen]

Be careful with antioxidants. Your body kills cancer cells with reactive oxygen species and anti-oxidants interfere with your apoptosis and immune control of cancer.

[Broccoli24 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thank you… Really? A supposedly healthy plant-based diet is full of anti-oxidant rich foods. There’s a lot of conflicting data. Complicated.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Broccoli24]

Nothing conflicts when you only pay attention to high quality data. The landmark Level 1 evidence was the SELECT trial that proved for the first time the harm that antioxidant supplements do in causing prostate cancer. Since then, many lab studies have shown the mechanisms of harm.

[Graham49 in reply to Tall_Allen]

The SELECT trial only investigated Selenium and vitamin E.

[dhccpa in reply to Graham49]

Interesting.

[Broccoli24 in reply to Graham49]

Yes, that's what I thought too.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Graham49]

That's very much the point.

[Graham49 in reply to Tall_Allen]

You can't draw conclusions on other supplements based on a trial on sepenium and vitamin E.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Graham49]

Afterwards, researchers investigated the cause of the surprising results. This led to the elucidation of mechanisms for antioxidant interference with natural ROS cancer cell killing.

[Broccoli24 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Interesting - how do you think that works with antioxidant rich foods? Like those found in a plant based diet? I'm struggling to work it all out. Not that it's workoutable... but we can try. I'm sure there's a fair portion of helping yourself through diet and exercise & occasional supps that improves outcomes.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Broccoli24]

Your body has mechanisms evolved over millions of years with symbiotic bacteria to get what you need from the foods you eat and excrete the rest, and to detoxify small amounts of toxins. It's only supplements, which are drugs, that cause damage.

[Broccoli24 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thank you, yes, I’m leaning towards trying to get most things from diet… I’ve been reading up. Thanks for the pointers. There are some things that are harder to get from diet, so some judicious supplement use might be justified… for me. But thank you.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Broccoli24]

I agree that it is difficult to get all nutrients we require from a plant-based diet. Fighting evolution is a bitch. BTW-this week they found a very early form of life in Mono Lake that already has symbiotic bacteria. Our microbiome co-evolved with us. How do extreme diets (e.g. vegan) affect or microbiome and what influence does our microbiome have on cancer?

[Broccoli24 in reply to Tall_Allen]

Probably a lot.

[back2health in reply to Broccoli24]

Unfortunately Broccoli24, we're not living in times eons ago when soils were healthy and mineral rich enough to generate nutrient-dense foods. This is one reason why supplements can offer therapeutic value. Another is that in today's society, the human body is under more "assaults" in the forms of environmental toxins from air and water, disease-promoting food additives, electromagnetic field pollution, psychological /physical stress, poorer diets due to more "eating-out," and increased patterns of less or poorer sleep due to the multi-tasking nature of our complex society. So please don't be deceived into thinking our bodies exist in the very same enviromental/lifestyle/die-tary complex they existed in many moons ago.

Many phytocompounds are "small molecules" that our cells have a natural affinity for (think CBD1 and CBD2 cell receptors for CBD), unlike synthetics that don't and have to "force" themselves into cells. Further, anyone who suggest or consider natural compounds and antioxidants to be "dangerous" should first give plenty of thought to the tens of thousands of synthetic drug-caused fatalities that occur annually, in compar- son to hardly any caused by natural or herbal supplements being used therapeutic- ally.

The pharmaceutical industry and its art of isolating, purifying, and concentrating medicinal compounds began in the 19th century. And the industry started with isolating, purifying, and concentrating compounds from plant sources, and even today it is still doing so. Contrast this with a single plant, the Magnolia Tree, containing over 200 compounds, that's been around for roughly 100 million years fine-tuning them! Even on my days when I "loose my thinking cap" I'm smart enough to realize that there's bound to be a lot of therapeutic intelligence built into these compounds.

Conventional medicine has a lot to offer in terms of diagnostic technology and treatments to address critical situations, but has failed in its attempt to exert control over chronic conditions, including to a large extent, cancer, largely because it's quick to seek drugging or zapping the tumor while giving little concern to the underlying reasons behind their manifestations in a particular patient. Many individuals, including myself, have had successes in arresting stubborn chronic conditions with natural supplements, where conventional medicine failed. But, of course alternative naturals are of little value with critical conditions or when they're in a life-threatening stage.

Because of this Integrative Medicine, and an integrative approach, I believe is the smartest way to go!

[Broccoli24 in reply to back2health]

Thank you B2H for such a thought provoking answer… I’m inclined to agree with you more or less exactly. I feel very at sea with it at the moment… my oncologist has one opinion on it… that they could have a benefit, but he is nit happy to commit to expanding on that and suggesting anything that isn’t SOC… so I find myself wading through clinical studies giving conflicting suggestions, trying to trust my gut to arrive at somewhere like the best way forward. Finding an integrative oncologist would help I suppose, but it’s hard to know who might be legit, and who is less than.

[JohnInTheMiddle in reply to Tall_Allen]

I don't take any antioxidant supplements. Because medical information has been out there for quite a few years that the body uses oxygen to kill bad things. Like cancer. And we probably get enough antioxidants from a decent diet.

That's science. On the other hand there is magical thinking. So the whole "antioxidant" meme is a rhetorical signifier for health, that just floats along and along and along. It's so easy for us lay people to just latch on to these free floating ideas. "Oxygen burns your body slowly from the inside." Sort of like a demon.

According to this fantasy (and supplement vendors), antioxidant supplements therefore are a good thing. Especially as part of a plant-based diet. Or like holy water. Let's all chant together "Antioxidants. Antioxidants."

We think we live in a modern world. But we are in some sense not much different from people 200 years ago, with folk tales and superstitions and home remedies. (Some of which worked of course!)

But fantasy is not the modern way. Modernity and up-to-date science is a terrible responsibility. And unexamined practices may even be unhealthy.

Hey, antioxidants might even be a good idea sometimes. Because we can see in the modern world and with constantly evolving science, and unlike say with demon possession, things aren't always black and white.

[Cape1]

yes, I take lol three, and Darilutimide, too. No adverse effects , that I’m ware of

[Broccoli24 in reply to Cape1]

Thank you!

[JohnInTheMiddle in reply to Cape1]

Adverse effects? How would you know? Especially in terms of progression and resistance?

[dhccpa]

No, I've only taken them both through my years on Lupron only. They are two of the supps I've used most for the past 4.5 years.

[Broccoli24 in reply to dhccpa]

I was on Berberine for 6 weeks and from everything I've read... I like it. I also had a precipitous PSA drop from 530 to 0.88 on Firmagon plus supplements over those 6 weeks. I was then put on Xtandi, which has possible conflicts with Berb & Quercetin. Tricky.

[dhccpa in reply to Broccoli24]

Yes, you have to see what the "evidence" (far and against) individual supps really says. People seem to be for them or against them, but things are never that clearcut

[Broccoli24 in reply to dhccpa]

Super tricky… Quercetin is also a possible conflict, OTOH studies show that taking Quercetin disrupts AR receptor messaging while you’re on Xtandi… theoretically making it harder for the PCa to become Castration-Resistant.

[back2health in reply to dhccpa]

You're absolutely correct dhccpa, especially when it comes to the complex nature of these "small natural molecules" that have been in plants evolving for millions of years. For example, recently I was stumped by several research studies pointing to how Curcumin increased testosterone levels by offering antioxidant protection to the testicular cells that produce the hormone.

Right away I was conflicted because it's also clearly evident that testosterone and DHT also drives cancer cell proliferation, the reason for ADT. On further research, I found studies demonstrating how Curcumin impeded the interaction between "T" and the androgen receptors of the prostate , thus depriving the gland of the same hormone it helped to increase.

If research studies only focused on whether or not Curcumin increased testosterone, on finding out that it did, it might conclude that ultimately it does more harm than good. But if this study was to do a follow-up to investigate curcumin's action on prostate gland cancer cells' ARs, on finding out the compound blocks the uptake of testosterone in the ARs, thereby depriving the cells of their primary fueling source, then it may conclude that ultimately it does more good than harm.

When I inquired on Quora about apparent conflicting research study data, and this one involving curcumin, a medical scientist on the site said, "These contrasting outcomes highlight the complexity of curcumin's effects and the importance of understanding how it interacts with various pathways in the body."

So it looks like when it comes to these small natural molecules, research studies can only see what they're setup to focus on, and are somewhat "blindsided" by what they're not looking at. And this means that there could be an infinite number of things about the interactions of these molecules with our cells that we'll never be able to completely 'wrap our heads around.'