Very limited and many weaknesses but I found it interesting. degruyter.com/document/doi/...
Diet: Very limited and many weaknesses... - Advanced Prostate...
Diet
59 Replies
•
RSH1..Thanks for this information. There is tons of evidence that plant-based diet does help in reducing incidence and slowing growth of prostate cancer. Foods rich in Sulforaphanes, Resveratrol, Lycopene and other PI13 K inhibitor foods...should be part of a comprehensive treatment regimen along with daily physical exercise.Hope SOC agents do not attack you for bringing this subject again. Good Luck.
• in reply toLearnAll
I like doing a modified Mediterranean diet. Very high in fruits (some veggies but I don't like most of them). I include a little salmon and some nuts. And when I am at restaurants I eat what I want (maybe once a week). I've tried strict keto 7 times. 3 times my PSA went up a little. It went down a little 4 times. The only thing I take from that is that it doesn't kill me. And every time I do it I lose weight. I think most of it is water weight because when I go off I regain most of the weight in a day or so.
1. JNCCN 360 - Prostate - Could a Low-Carb Diet Improve PSA Levels in Prostate Cancer? jnccn360.org/prostate/medic...
2. Adherence to Mediterranean Diet, Physical Activity and Survival after Prostate Cancer Diagnosis – PMC ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...
3. Mediterranean Diet May Lower Prostate Cancer Progression Risk - Renal and Urology News renalandurologynews.com/hom...
4. The Mediterranean Diet Reduces the Risk and Mortality of the Prostate Cancer: A Narrative Review – PMC ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...
5. Diet in Altering Disease Progression in Patients with Prostate Cancer on Active Surveillance clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...
6. Effect of Plant- and Animal-Based Foods on Prostate Cancer Risk degruyter.com/document/doi/...
7. (PDF) Ketogenic diet in cancer therapy researchgate.net/publicatio...
Good luck to you also and thanks!
It would be interesting to see correlations not just with risk of PC incidence, but with risk of HIGHLY AGGRESSIVE (i.e., lethal) PC.
The number of men in Western countries who die "with" PC and not "from" it, is huge. Decades ago, many studies revealed evidence of PC being highly prevalent in the prostates and bones of men who died of other causes (car accidents, coronaries, etc) without ever presenting with any symptoms of disease, and not just older men. Could diet turn some of these indolent cases into more aggressive cases? I would think probably so.
Of course for us, it's less about what diet causes PC and more about dietary factors might slow its progression. For me, I'm back on the plant-based, low-calorie, ketogenic, time-restricted-feeding plan. Hopefully I can stay on it (and, well, hopefully its actually HELPFUL to stay on it).
• in reply tonoahware
I'm looking for any literature that might help shed light on that subject.
I usually eat a plant-based, high-calories, low carb (not keto low - I get about 20% of my calls from carbs, high protein (yes, I know, probably not the best, but it helps me athletically). I do the time-restricted feeding. I average about 7 hours for my eating window.
I like your diet. I decided to go against the grain because I like to eat. I try to make up for it in other ways.
noahware• in reply to
Basically I've looked at what keto does to various signaling pathways (IGF1, mTOR, etc.) and decided that, mechanistically, those changes might slow some cancer progressions, in some people.
I think the good data on keto and cancer will currently be mostly in the brain cancer realm, which may not apply to PC at all:
As you say, MANY weaknesses, in fact, so many that it is just more garbage on the subject. When they actually did a randomized clinical trial on the subject of adding more vegetables to one's diet, they found there was NO risk of progression of prostate cancer: In fact, they did not include that in their analysis. Here it is:
jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...
Those who ignore Levels of Evidence should try to understand why this analysis is useless:
"Our study had a number of limitations. First, despite the broad search and detailed method of data extraction, we did not include a meta-analysis with our systematic review because the significant heterogeneity found among the studies preclude meaningful quantitative analysis. Not only were several types of studies included (eg, systematic reviews, prospective cohorts, and case-control studies), but there was also significant heterogeneity within each subset. Second, epidemiologic data cannot prove causation, so any change in risk for PCa is by association and subject to confounding factors. For instance, people who follow more prudent diets are also less likely to smoke or drink alcohol and more likely to exercise. As with most observational nutrition studies, the presented data were primarily collected by dietary recall, which has inherent flaws. The effect of diet on PCa is also difficult to study because of the inherent indolence of the disease and variability in staging. Some of the studies looked at PCa incidence, whereas others looked at PCa mortality. Very few studies tried to determine associations of diet with more aggressive forms of PCa. Even if more studies had looked at this factor, we would likely find the definition of aggressive cancer to be variable as well."
• in reply toTall_Allen
I like the level of evidence. But the intervention is 2.1 servings of veggies a day (4.2 ounces). And the control is 0.37 servings (less than an ounce!). I would have to try really, really hard to only eat 4 ounces of veggies a day. Both studies are extremely flawed and, regardless of the level of evidence, are equally useless.
Tall_Allen• in reply to
You seem to have misread that. The group that was encouraged to eat more veggies were encouraged to eat "at least 7 daily vegetable-fruit servings (defined as a half-cup of raw or cooked vegetables or fruits or 100% vegetable juice), including at least 2 servings each of cruciferous vegetables and tomatoes."
Both groups were eating 3.4 servings/day at baseline. At 2 years, the treatment group actually increased their vegetable intake by 2.0 servings per day (net 5.4 servings per day). (the control group by 0.4 servings per day- net 3.8 servings/day.) There were similar large increases in cruciferous vegetable intake, lycopene and carotenoid intake. There were large decreases in red meat, fat, saturated fat intake vs no significant changes in the control group.
• in reply toTall_Allen
I missed that. Still, it isn't a huge difference and I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of health changes. 5.4 vs 3.8 servings of veggies is only about 60 calories.
Tall_Allen• in reply to
It's about a 60% increase by volume- very significant! At the same time, they were cutting down on red meat and saturated fats, also significantly. Yes, veggies are low in calories, so the increase in intake of veggies and the parallel decrease in red meats and fats probably resulted in a major reduction in caloric intake.
• in reply toTall_Allen
We interpret things differently. Yes, it is a 60% increase but the absolute increase is insignificant IMO. My daily fruit and veggie intake averages 15 servings (30 oz). It would be higher but I don't like many veggies and there are issues with eating too much fruit.
When calories aren't held the same we're totally muddling it. We decide to vary x and y and vary y much more than x but then claim that everything is due to x.
What this study shows me is that a small absolute increase in self-reported, self-determined veggies with a possible self-reported large decrease in calories does not signficantly affect low-grade PCa progression for 2 years.
French fries count as a veggie in the goverment's eyes. Lycopene increased but is that due to "normal" sugar-added ketchup added to the french fries? Leafy veggies were encouraged; iceberg lettuce? Now there is a nutritional superstar! I see that cruciferous veggies intake changed radically. 28 grams a day! I guess maybe they walked with their mouths open; that should do it 
US Congress rules that pizza is a vegetable · TheJournal.ie
thejournal.ie/us-congress-r...
USDA Classifies French Fries as a Fresh Vegetable : NPR
npr.org/templates/story/sto...
Do you know how the vegetable intake was monitored? Was it self-reported to the people asking them to eat more veggies?
I read this study a while ago and, while many excellent RCTs are run by the government, I was scratching my head over this one. Perhaps in practice it is difficult to ask Americans to increase their veggetable intake above the minimum CDC recommendations so they did what they could do. And the 2 year reported timeline might be money and expediency driven.
CDC: cdc.gov/media/releases/2017....
"Depending on their age and sex federal guidelines recommend that adults eat at least 1½ to 2 cups per day of fruit and 2 to 3 cups per day of vegetables"
Depending on the vegetable the recommended range is approximately 4 to 10 servings. If we can rely on self-reported data the study group barely got above the CDC recommended minimum.
From the CDC: "Seven of the top 10 leading causes of death in the United States are from chronic diseases. Eating a diet rich in fruits and vegetables daily can help reduce the risk of many leading causes of illness and death, including heart disease, type 2 diabetes, some cancers, and obesity."
Brings me to another issue: it is rare that we teach good practical nutrition in our schools. And as parents we often fail in this area, but how do we expect the blind to lead the blind?
dhccpa• in reply to
Most (me included before beginning my current regimen in 2019) have the natural inclination to cheat on a diet if one alternative tastes better. More fruits and veggies, you say? OK, do I have to eat an apple, or can I eat apple sauce instead? Whole orange or OJ? Whole potato or hash browns? Whole fruits vs. juices in general?
Then there's manufactured/boxed products. They taste great and smell great, or they wouldn't be successful, but are they really as healthy as fresh fruits/veggies?
• in reply todhccpa
The government deciding that french fries, potato chips, ketchup, and pizza are vegetables helped muddy the waters. Sometimes they make great decisions, sometimes head-scratchers.
• in reply todhccpa
For me it is fresh/frozen veggies/fruit all the way. Less processing. More likely to have natural nutrients and synergists instead of synthetic stuff in huge quantities. More fiber. Juice isn't good. 100% fruit juice is ok once in a while.
However, replacing processed sandwich meat with some hash browns and apple sauce is almost certainly an improvement.
So the advice I give my kids is moderation. Don't make things so unpleasant that you don't enjoy life - goes for exercise, diet, schoolwork, finance, so many things." Don't try to be perfect. Be perfect for you."
Tall_Allen• in reply to
One can always find reasons to disbelieve even the best trials available. It's called "confirmation bias." It can be damaging to your health.
Here is the protocol of the MEAL trial. It was run by the top doctor in the field of dietary intervention. He was convinced, like you, that diet could make a difference. The co-authors include many of the top US prostate oncologists. If you read the protocol, I think you will agree it is well designed:
cdn.jamanetwork.com/ama/con...
• in reply toTall_Allen
And one can justify what they would like to believe. An extrapolation based on limited data in an attempt to "prove" a desirable conclusion is one example. This too is damaging to your health. Despite your feeble attempts I will continue to follow the AHA guidelines as they pertain to diet. I expect that the probabilities of you drinking gallons of carrot juice to kill your cancer are greater than the chances that you will affect my diet and exercise routines.
As I said below "Seems like some people here are eating healthy and will continue to do so. Others seem to be trying to convince themselves that, because diet will not kill their cancer and has only been proven to reduce diabetes and cardiac mortality risk, they can eat whatever they want."
And, bow, the last word goes to you as usual. You're welcome. If you don't post here I will expect a private message.
There's also the often ignored issue of activities/consumption that we should stop doing, rather than start doing. A cigarette smoker is still a cigarette smoker, a heavy (pick your "normal" level) drinker is still a heavy drinker, an impulsive donut consumer is still that, and so on, no matter the quantity and variety of fresh veggies he consumes.
• in reply todhccpa
Couldn't have said it better. It might make you feel good to do some exercise once in a while. But if you are stuffing your face with junk foods, you just wiped out the exercise benefits.
A friend of mine and I used to go to the gym together after work and use treadmills for 20 minutes or so. After we were done I'd grab some water and he'd grab a full sugar coke. One day we were huffing and puffing on the treadmills and I pointed out to him that we were at the 20-minute mark and the calories that he had burned made up for the one coke. He switched to water.
Sounds like this could have been a much shorter paper containing only the words "never mind".
Young doctors often publish these kinds of database analyses to get their resumes up. No one takes it seriously - especially if the only place they can get published is the Journal of Osteopathic Medicine.
What matters to us, of course, is survival after diagnosis - particularly after metastasis,
You would be hard-pressed to find a dietary intervention study that gives cause for optimism.
{However, veganism does lend itself to selective restriction of amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc.}
The most impressive effort IMO was the MEAL intervention (J Kellogg Parsons):
"Effect of a Behavioral Intervention to Increase Vegetable Consumption on Cancer Progression Among Men With Early-Stage Prostate Cancer"
"Among men with early-stage prostate cancer managed with active surveillance, a behavioral intervention that increased vegetable consumption did not significantly reduce the risk of prostate cancer progression. The findings do not support use of this intervention to decrease prostate cancer progression in this population ..."
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/a...
I can't imagine that there will every be such an intervention study for men with more serious PCa.
Ever notice that when you mis-key something in a Google search, you still get a ton of hits?
I wondered what I would get for "cancer hates healthy food", surely no one really believes that? - one solitary hit.
-Patrick
• in reply topjoshea13
I did that once. I typed in cancer and peyote buttons. Type in almost anything and watch the hits!
• in reply topjoshea13
I view diet as support only. I keep my diet healthy and my weight at a good point. It has been shown to reduce diabetes risk and cardiac risk. And most healthy foods taste good to me.
Plus I like to set a good example for my son.
"It is just more garbage on the subject". It must be garbage, it came from the Mayo Clinic. I better put lettuce and tomato on my next cheeseburger, I might get 17 additional hours of life by doing so.
• in reply to
Speaking of Mayo, the advice I received there was to eat what I want, nothing makes a difference. If you want to eat cheeseburgers put some Mayonnaise on them.
• in reply to
If I put Mayonnaise on my burger it mixes with the ketchup to become French dressing. I'm sure if I look under enough rocks I will discover that French dressing causes aggressive prostate cancer. I'm not taking the bait, sorry.
• in reply to
Eh bien plot foiled. C'est la vie.
Looks like diet can help keep you from getting aPca, but not kill or slow it once you are hooked by the monster.
• in reply toShooter1
That's what I think. It has been shown conventionally to reduce cardiac risk and risk of other health issues. For cancer, I don't think it alters the trajectory but it can give you strength and stamina to handle other therapies that might help control it. For example, chemo or even radiation and ADT.
So much prattle about whether diet can prevent Pca, slow tumor growth, time to metastasis etc. Such an unanswerable question.
As has been said, there is far too much heterogeneity in patients, the disease itself and the different studies to glean much. Also without a doubt people on healthier diets tend to have other healthy habits, particularly exercise. Then you have self-reported data-now that truly is garbage. People are notorious for lying about what they do-and don’t do.
Consider the typical western diet, both in types of food and caloric intake, plus a distinct penchant for sitting most of each day. Those factors alone lead directly to the very thing that is far more likely to kill us than cancer-heart disease and stroke.
My diet and exercise habits place me at heightened risk of dying from this disease, since it’s reducing my risk of dying from everything else. A great plan if it takes long enough? Maybe yes, maybe no. Pca can be a very tough way to go. It’s fun to think of the good im doing, can’t know in the slightest what the future will actually bring.
The best reason I have for a healthy lifestyle is what it does for me (and in turn, those I care for) TODAY, rather than any concerns about survival or longevity in and of itself. .
• in reply toLondon441
I'm retired. Lots of time to prattle. Let's discuss religion. That's always a fun, unanswerable subject. 
addicted2cycling• in reply to
RSH1 wrote --- "I'm retired. Lots of time to prattle. Let's discuss religion. That's always a fun, unanswerable subject. "
Nothing to discuss here because I gave up on religion and am much more at peace with life and death and PCa. After my blood work in 1.5 hours I think I'll go for a 50 mile bike ride and if lucky get hit/killed to end it all. 😁
• in reply toaddicted2cycling
I'm glad you're at peace with it. That removes a lot of stress. I have certain beliefs and they helped me be at peace with it, even when I thought I didn't have much time left.
Bloodwork... Yesterday the nurse at Sonora Quest asked me if I was monitoring something or just liked to get it done. The hopes, expectations, anticipation mixed with dread. And I pay for it!
I'm getting ready to workout. Maybe if I'm lucky a weight will smash in my skull.
Here's to getting hit and falling weights!
addicted2cycling• in reply to
RSH1 wrote --- " ... Maybe if I'm lucky a weight will smash in my skull... "
Would go out in tune if a piano falling from above was your doom.
RSH1 wrote --- " ... Bloodwork... Yesterday the nurse at Sonora Quest asked me if I was monitoring something or just liked to get it done ... "
My bloodwork today was at my request because I wanted numbers checked before a cruise we will be on in 3 weeks. If results are bad chances are scans before the cruise and then party time on the cruise being a BAD EUNUCH and if results are excellent then it will be a more subdued party time = not as much drinking/eating the stuff I restrain from.😁
I have thought about getting taken out while riding as well. Lets just say it's not a fear anymore. 3 weeks off the bike partying on a boat. How long will it take to get back up to speed when you get back?
Only a week on cruise that we go on in 3 weeks. Numbers came back not the best (actually as expected) so waiting for Doctor's call.
A weeks nothing. So scans then? What made you expect the bad numbers if you don't mind me asking?
Slow flow in AM, too many days with lots of body pains = just not usual and this doesn't sound logical but way too slow for recovery from last July's bike mishap with rotator cuff tear. When the hog hit me in April 2020 I was back way faster even with the 2 cracked ribs, punctured lung, cracked scapula AND TRAUMA to the left shoulder that I actually think paved the way for the rotator cuff issue.
p.s. - just picked up a RANS Velocity Squared
• in reply toaddicted2cycling
Have you talked to your MO?
Is that the recumbent?
addicted2cycling• in reply to
RSH1 wrote --- " ...Is that the recumbent?"
Yuppers. Wasn't really going to get one right now but ..... it's way faster than my Day 6 semi-recumbent and more comfortable and did I mention faster. 😁
I mtn biked 9 miles today first time in a few months. Beautiful day if a little cold but I forget how much warmer it is than road or gravel. Get my blood drawn tomorrow. I have out it off for a few days. Almost 6 month off all meds and feeling fine. That can all cone crashing down with 1 test result.
Thank you...such a reasonable evaluation and excellent viewpoint on living with this disease. I worry (pointlessly) if my husband is eating the "right" things to slow progression. This gives me some relief, as he won't stop the red meat. He eats tons of vegetables, small amount of fruit, but at least 4 days red meat. Salmon and albacore tuna 2 to 3 times a week and chicken 1 to 2 times a week. He also eats some cheese. He does not eat any junk food, no sodas of any kind, occasional alcohol. He is very active. Anyway, thanks for your input!!
Wow. Yes if you are worried about his diet it is pointless.He is doing excellent. Feeding his soul in a way he finds balanced with health. And it is balanced.
Thank you, what a great perspective!!He does grab the occasional handful of chips and a cookie here and there, but thats the exception.
Anyway, he feels terrific (finally) and is doing the things he loves so I'll sure take it !!! Thank you again
(p.s. I also worry about what our animals eat LoL, it's a bad habit).
• in reply toJWPMP
I disagree. It is not a bad habit. But try not to worry about it. Make small changes that are easy for you to incorporate. Don't try to do the 100% thing. I see that attitude at the gym all the time. People start and go gung ho. They workout a couple of hours every single day and follow strict diets. That usually lasts for 3 weeks and then they are never to be seen again.
Animals: I was feeding our cats the standard cat chow available at Costco. Well, the male cat developed bladder issues and wound up in the cat ER. $3500 later he may or may not make it. The vet said that it could have been prevented by giving him good food. My remaining cat benefits because I will now provide her with better nutrition.
JWPMP• in reply to
Sounds like balanced advice for living.
I am sorry about your cat! That is so frustrating and heartbreaking.
We also had a $3500 surgery for my horse 4 years ago, bladder stone. Too much protein and calcium in the alfalfa and I was feeding supplements. I also monitor the quality of our alfalfa as every load is different and you have to adjust amount fed accordingly.
Having a few head of cattle and the horses thus living in the country, I can't begin to tell you what the dogs will eat. They are garbage guts to be sure. Even though, I still am picky about the dog food I buy and try to not feed them too much table food, but am generally unsuccessful. So far all of our dogs have stayed healthy in spite of my obessessing.
Hope your cat pulls through, we have several and they are definitely part of the family.
Thanks for starting this thread, all the information is informative and helpful one way or the other.
With the animals. That's funny. My wife is the same way.Me: " what did you do to my tuna sandwich?" " Sprouts are for seasoning, I'm not a rabbit or a horse". Or" "Jeez dear, the kale in my omlet is a 1/4 inch thick I can barely taste the shrooms, and the cheeze."
"Cleaning-up" your diet is unlikely to slow prostate cancer progression. It takes a serious effort, involving not just food selection, but preparation as well. Breakfast is the most important meal in stopping progression. Without the right breakfast, nothing else that you do can make up for it.
Seems like some people here are eating healthy and will continue to do so. Others seem to be trying to convince themselves that, because diet will not kill their cancer and has only been proven to reduce diabetes and cardiac mortality risk, they can eat whatever they want.
I say eat and DIE-t
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Wednesday 03/09/2022 10:26 PM EST
• in reply toj-o-h-n
I say give it a try. Eat and let die.
Oh my, That's no lie.
(Bond....James Bond)...
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Wednesday 03/09/2022 11:35 PM EST
Hey RSH1,
You might like the videos below. Of course, there is the also the Dr. Ruth Heidrich story.
A friend whose dad had prostate cancer became a vegetarian and graduated to being a vegan. He belongs to a vegan group in the state that gets together once a month at chosen restaurants that serve vegan meals. There are people in that group who are healthy and vibrant that were told they were terminal, nothing more could be done for their various cancers. They became vegans! Consistency and synergy are important.
Currumpaw
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