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Testosterone Therapy in Men with Biochemical Recurrence and Metastatic Prostate Cancer: Initial Observations

pjoshea13 profile image
44 Replies

New paper below from Dr. Morgentaler (Published Online:21 Jul 2021) [1].

Note that some of the men were put on a modified BAT (bipolar androgen therapy) protocol,

Introduction:

Although prostate cancer (PCa) has long been considered an absolute contraindication for testosterone therapy (TTh), growing literature suggests TTh may be safely offered to men with localized PCa. We here present a single-center series of men treated with TTh for relief of symptoms, despite having more advanced disease, namely biochemical recurrence (BCR) or metastatic PCa (MET).

Methods:

We identified men treated with TTh with BCR, MET, or adjuvant androgen deprivation therapy (ADT). Consent included risks of rapid PCa progression and death. Laboratory and clinical results were analyzed.

Results:

Twenty-two men received TTh: 7 with BCR, 13 with MET, and 2 with adjuvant ADT. Median age was 70.5 years (range 58–94). Median TTh duration was 12 months (range 2–84) overall, including 20 months for BCR and 9.5 months for MET. Mean serum testosterone (T) increased from 210 to 1111 ng/dL. Median PSA (interquartile range) increased from 3.1 ng/mL (0.2–4.5) to 13.3 ng/mL (3.4–22) in the BCR group, 6.3 ng/mL (1.2–31) to 17.8 ng/mL (6.2–80.1) in the MET group, and <0.1 to 0.3 ng/mL in the ADT group. All patients reported symptom relief, especially improved vigor and well-being. Overall mortality was 13.6% and PCa-specific mortality was 4.5% during the period of TTh and 6 months after discontinuation. Seven of 10 with follow-up imaging within 12 months showed no progression. Five men have died: three during TTh and two succumbed at 2 years or longer after discontinuing TTh. One of the three deaths during TTh was PCa-specific. Three men developed significant bone pain at 7–41 months; two discontinued TTh and one continued, after focal radiation. There were no cases of rapid-onset complications, vertebral collapse, or pathological fracture.

Conclusions:

These initial observations indicate TTh was not associated with precipitous progression of PCa in men with BCR and MET, suggesting a possible role for TTh in selected men with advanced PCa whose desire for improved quality of life is paramount.

Discussion

To the best of our knowledge this is the first reported clinical series in the PSA era of outcomes with TTh specifically in men with BCR or MET in a clinical setting, and not part of a formal trial. A total of 20 men with nonlocalized PCa and two receiving ADT deemed at high risk for metastases received TTh for up to 7 years with a median duration of >1 year, with considerable subjective improvement in quality of life, and without rapid progression, morbidity, or death. There was only one PCa-specific death during TTh, occurring 11 months after initiation of TTh in a 94-year-old man with diffuse metastases and initial PSA 546 ng/dL. Although this series of cases cannot establish safety of TTh in the setting of advanced PCa, these results do challenge the long-standing assumption that even transient exposure to increased serum T in a man with advanced PCa-with testosterone flare, for example, will rapidly precipitate morbidity or death.15

The original basis for the belief that TTh is dangerous for PCa arose from the work of Huggins and Hodges, who in 1941 concluded that “Testosterone injections cause activation of prostate cancer1” Contemporary review of their original data revealed it was based on erratic acid phosphatase data for only 14 days in a single hormonally intact individual.16 Fowler and Whitmore reported 45 of 52 men who received TTh demonstrated an undefined “unfavorable result” within 30 days; however, all but four of these men had already undergone castration or were on estrogen treatment to suppress serum T.2 Of these four men, three demonstrated no unfavorable results despite daily injections of T propionate for 51, 55, and 310 days. The appearance of poor outcomes for men on ADT but not for men who were hormonally intact inspired the development of the saturation model, which demonstrates a finite capacity of androgens to stimulate PCa growth, with exquisite sensitivity to changes in androgen concentrations at low values, and then insensitivity once the saturation point is reached,9 which appears to be ∼250 ng/dL in men.17,18 This study provides suggestive evidence for saturation in nonlocalized PCa, since men with BCR failed to demonstrate precipitous increases in PSA despite substantial periods of TTh.

There is scant literature regarding testosterone administration in men with advanced PCa in the PSA era. Leibowitz et al. reported results of a variety of strategies involving TTh in a mixed population of 96 men with PCa, of which it appears 31 likely had metastatic disease.19 Clinical trials of BAT in men with castrate-resistant prostate cancer reported a PSA decline in 7 of 14 men, and evaluable disease was reduced in 5 of 10 men.12 To optimize the duration of time on TTh, mBAT was developed13 and was used in seven men in the MET group in this study.

There are several notable observations from this clinical series. First, there exists a set of men for whom quality of life is more important than duration of life. Each patient understood that their choice of TTh could cause immediate or hastened disease progression, morbidity, and death. Second, these men only continued TTh because it provided them with symptomatic benefits to a degree that made it worthwhile, in their estimation, to risk their lives. This defies a frequently made assertion that TTh provides only minimal symptomatic benefits.20 Nearly all men experienced increased vigor. Sexual desire and ability were improved in many, and several were able to resume sexual activity after years without it, especially those on ADT. One man gained enough strength to give up the need for a walker. Several men and their partners noted a return of their “personality.” One regained fluency of speech and brain processing that had been severely compromised by ADT. Further research in this area would benefit from use of validated instruments to address subjective response to treatment.

Arguably the most important observation from this study is that TTh was not associated with rapid disease progression. Among men with BCR, with median duration of 33 months of TTh, only one progressed to metastatic disease >5 years after beginning TTh. This compares with 3 years estimates of metastatic disease in men with BCR after RP of 14% for Gleason score 5–7 and 37% for Gleason score 8–10.21 Hruby et al. reported that 70 of 538 men demonstrated biochemical failure after XRT for localized PCa with median follow-up of 50 months. Of these 70 men with biochemical failure, 13 had died and metastases were observed in 5 of the remaining 57 (8.8%).22 Only 30% of men with MET demonstrated progression on follow-up imaging studies by 3–12 months. The overall survival of 79.6% (mortality 21.4%) in the MET group compares with median survival of 47.2 months in the ADT alone arm of the CHAARTED Trial.23 The relevance of the short median PSA doubling times of 8.9 months in BCR and 4.4 months in MET is uncertain, as PSA doubling times are not usually determined in men receiving androgens, particularly since PSA expression is itself androgen-dependent.24

There are several important limitations to this study, including its retrospective nature, multiple forms of TTh treatment, and small sample size. In addition, PCa is a heterogenous disease, and this report includes those with Gleason scores ranging from 6 to 9, which may cloud interpretation of results. Nonetheless, these preliminary results indicate that TTh does not appear to cause precipitous PCa progression in men with BCR and MET. There may be a role for TTh in selected men with BCR, MET, or high-risk disease willing to accept the theoretical risk of hastened disease progression in return for enhanced quality of life.

Conclusion

TTh in men with BCR, MET, and high-risk PCa was associated with symptomatic benefits and low rates of complications, although interpretation of these results must be tempered by small sample size and a heterogeneous population. Well-designed prospective studies are needed to provide better evidence for the potential use of TTh in similarly affected individuals. In the meantime, these results may provide clinicians with a framework to counsel patients who prioritize quality of life over longevity.

-Patrick

[1] liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/...

Androgens: Clinical Research and Therapeutics Vol. 2, No. 1 Original ArticleOpen AccessCreative Commons license

Testosterone Therapy in Men with Biochemical Recurrence and Metastatic Prostate Cancer: Initial Observations

Abraham Morgentaler, Alejandro Abello, and Glenn Bubley

Published Online:21 Jul 2021doi.org/10.1089/andro.2021....

click on link for full text - including charts

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44 Replies
Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen

Five men of 22 died - scary!

pjoshea13 profile image
pjoshea13 in reply toTall_Allen

"PCa-specific mortality was 4.5% during the period of TTh and 6 months after discontinuation."

4.5% of 22 = 1 man

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply topjoshea13

The reason studies use overall mortality and not disease-specific mortality is because of the difficulty in ascribing cause of death to the cancer. If an older man stroked out because of a blood clot traveling to his brain (or died of pulmonary embolism or MI) was that because cancer increases clotting? Cancer debilitates multiple body systems so it increases mortality.

maley2711 profile image
maley2711 in reply toTall_Allen

" increases mortality" ....... as do the treatments for PCa?

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply tomaley2711

Can't imagine what you are talking about. All treatments for PCa increase survival.

Masirah profile image
Masirah in reply toTall_Allen

All treatments for PCa increase survival? That's not what an increasing number in the medical profession are saying. My niece is a medical doctor and she thinks many men are over diagnosed and receive treatments that don't extend their lives. This is backed up by Dr Albin, in hos book, "The Great Prostate Hoax." There is also a book called, "Over diagnosed" by Dr. H Gilbert Welch, that says much the same. As I have alluded elsewhere, "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert."

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply toMasirah

Luckily your niece is not an oncologist. The only expertise worth using are in peer-reviewed published journals. You are being scammed.

Masirah profile image
Masirah in reply toTall_Allen

It wasn't just my niece. I had a telephone consultation with my oncologist, a German lady who seemed to know what she was talking about. I was told I have Gleason 9 PCa, yet she said without treatment I'd live another 10 years (I am now 70 years old). The urologist initially disagreed, but when I mentioned that I'd read that testosterone wasn't the problem it was made out to be, he conceded that yes, views were changing all the time. I frankly prefer quality of life over duration and will take my chances. A bone scan showed the cancer had not spread. I'll stick with my decision.

clayfin profile image
clayfin in reply tomaley2711

Indeed - first line treatment of bicalutamide eventually leads to a more serious form of PCa.

positive-thoughts profile image
positive-thoughts in reply toclayfin

Do you have a link to this statement. Interested to read.

clayfin profile image
clayfin in reply topositive-thoughts

Search this site for more info.

noahware profile image
noahware in reply toclayfin

I would say it CAN lead to that, but does not always. I do believe it did for me, where my rapid increase in PSA and ALP after bicalutamide failure might not have occurred if I had done nothing instead of doing antiandrogen monotherapy. I think I woke the beast.

addicted2cycling profile image
addicted2cycling in reply topjoshea13

Here's link that I posted earlier for his video >>>

youtube.com/watch?v=XBBgan9...

Spyder54 profile image
Spyder54 in reply toaddicted2cycling

Every Man on this site who has an opinion on BAT, or mBAT, for it or against it, should take a few minutes and watch this video posted by addicted2cycling. Thanks for the post. Mike

Spyder54 profile image
Spyder54 in reply toTall_Allen

“There was only one PCa-specific death during TTh, occurring 11 months after initiation of TTh in a 94-year-old man with diffuse metastases and initial PSA 546 ng/dL. ”Mike

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply toSpyder54

There were 5 deaths.

maley2711 profile image
maley2711 in reply toTall_Allen

How many deaths would there have been in men of these ages without PCa?

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply tomaley2711

You are pointing out a problem of trials with no randomization and no control. Still 5 deaths out of 22 is enough to shut down further such experiments.

Stoneartist profile image
Stoneartist in reply toTall_Allen

Yeah - but look at the age range - need to isolate if they died from PCa progression or from something else??

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply toStoneartist

That's not how cancer works. See my reply to pjoshea above.

in reply toTall_Allen

The details show the deaths were from comorbidities or that they occurred years after the T Therapy. The authors specifically listed cause of death to show testosterone was not the main cause. These were not healthy men:

"Three men died during TTh: one from PCa at 95 years from PCa after 10 months TTh; one at 73 years from myelofibrosis, 7 years after beginning TTh; and one at 75 years after 10 months TTh from peptic ulcer disease. One additional man died of PCa, 2 years after discontinuing TTh. Complications during TTh included myocardial infarction (MI) at 6 months in a patient with three prior strokes, the most recent being 2 years before initiation of TTh; bone marrow replacement by PCa 3.5 years after first development of bone metastases; urinary retention with urosepsis 3 months after initiation of TTh; and a recurrent deep vein thrombosis 8 months after beginning TTh. There were no cases of pulmonary emboli, pathological fractures, or acute spinal cord compression."

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to

Deaths from prostate cancer may occur from any of those causes. Myelofibrosis, GI weakening, MI, urinary retention are all morbidities associated with prostate cancer. Other associated causes of death may be kidney or liver disease or failure of other organs. Cancer can affect all organ systems or create general debilitation. That's why overall survival is always used as primary endpoint in trials of metastatic PC men.

in reply toTall_Allen

Yes, I understand that which is my point. These were mainly metastatic men who lived for years after testosterone treatment to die of something else. Most were within the overall survival timeline for metastatic cancer progression. (I think average doubling time was 4 months and over 70% already had bone mets and 50% had lymph node mets when they started BAT.) There is nothing that links the deaths to BAT except for the 94 year old guy and he was on it for 10 months. Bet he felt great those last 10 months, too!

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to

Let me ask you a question. What do you suppose people dying of cancer actually die of? Do you think the cancer magically robs the life out of you? That's not the way human biology works. Those men did not die of something ELSE, they died because the therapy made their cancer worse. Any therapy that robs 5 of 22 men of their life needs to be tossed on the dung heap of bad ideas.

in reply toTall_Allen

I appreciate you trying to make your point, but cancer, cancer progression/remission, and treatments (which can both help and do more damage) is waaay to complicated to even begin to answer your question. I realize you would like to make this topic another black and white/ good and bad/ do-this-not-that scenario, but it just isn't that simple. There are many shades of gray.

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to

I'm only addressing how medical research is done, and it is actually very black-and-white. "Overall survival" is the gold standard endpoint. You may want to read the following document that addresses this.

"Overall survival is defined as the time from randomization until death from any cause and is measured in the intent-to-treat population. Survival is considered the most reliable cancer endpoint, and when studies can be conducted to adequately assess survival, it is usually the preferred endpoint. This endpoint is precise and easy to measure, documented by the date of death. Bias is not a factor in endpoint measurement. "

fda.gov/media/71195/download

in reply toTall_Allen

Yes, we can agree that Overall Survival/Being Dead is black and white. I'm not sure how it relates to Patrick's post, but that isn't important. The takeaway is: "Arguably the most important observation from this study is that TTh was not associated with rapid disease progression." And for those who value quality over quantity of life, "Nearly all men experienced increased vigor." It is time to move on.

Tall_Allen profile image
Tall_Allen in reply to

"But that isn't important"?? I think the most important takeaway is 5 men died as a result of this therapy. You may think that isn't important, but I guarantee their families do.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach

Morgentaler reported on these findings elsewhere with some details missing here. He mentions “modified BAT” protocol but does not say here what it consists of. I understand it is testosterone cypionate 400 mg IM every two weeks for 3 months. Then one month of enzalutamide mono therapy for one month then repeating. Presumably without any other ADT. So this is a longer and more intensive cycling than standard BAT of two weeks on and two weeks castrate due to underlying ADT. Wish he had selected more homogenous groups for subjects and larger sample size for analysis. Perhaps this is a prelude to that.

pjoshea13 profile image
pjoshea13 in reply toMateoBeach

These were men who came from all over the country to be treated by Morgantaler. For some men, ADT is unbearable. There were no other inclusion criteria. One man was 94.

These were anecdotal cases & I don't expect to see a trial.

-Patrick

I'll pay attention when the trials include 220 men. To under powered to make an informed decision.

In the mean time 🍻🍻 🍻

maley2711 profile image
maley2711 in reply to

so true!!

Spyder54 profile image
Spyder54

Thanks PJ“This defies a frequently made assertion that TTh provides only minimal symptomatic benefits.20 Nearly all men experienced increased vigor. Sexual desire and ability were improved in many, and several were able to resume sexual activity after years without it, especially those on ADT. One man gained enough strength to give up the need for a walker. Several men and their partners noted a return of their “personality.” One regained fluency of speech and brain processing that had been severely compromised by ADT. Further research in this area would benefit from use of validated instruments to address subjective response to treatment.”The above says a lot!!

Mike

St Pete

London441 profile image
London441

We seem to go down this road regularly. Morgentaler is a lone wolf from what I can see. And 22 men? As has been said, that is not enough to pay attention to.

Let’s hope for the best, since as we are told ‘there exists a set of men for whom quality of life is more important than duration of life’.

This may be true for a small minority, but there are many more who would gladly trade their testosterone and all its wonders in a heartbeat if their disease flourishes and ADT turns out to be the one thing that can control it.

in reply toLondon441

Thankfully, Morgentaler isn't a lone wolf but he appears to be one of the earlier ones to study testosterone. The list of authors of the Transformer study 8probably includes the doctors of many users of this forum:Samuel R Denmeade

Hao Wang

Neeraj Agarwal

David C Smith

Michael T Schweizer

Mark N Stein

Vasileios Assikis

Przemyslaw W Twardowski Thomas W Flaig

Russell Z Szmulewitz

Jeffrey M Holzbeierlein Ralph J Hauke

Guru Sonpavde

Jorge A Garcia

Arif Hussain

Oliver Sartor

Shifeng Mao

Harry Cao

Wei Fu

Ting Wang

Rehab Abdallah

Su Jin Lim

Vanessa Bolejack

Channing J Paller

Michael A Carducci

Mark C Markowski

Mario A Eisenberger Emmanuel S Antonarakis

It seems to my husband and me that there are a lot of reasons doctors won't prescribe it--some will if another doctor gives an ok so they aren't directly responsible, the hospital won't risk losing their funding by doing something other than Standard of Care treatment, the doctor hasn't done research and still believes the pouring-gas-on-the-flames hypothesis, and others.

There is no doubt if ADT is working you should stay on it. BAT is currently for a subset of men where ADT no longer controls the cancer.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to

That’s a nice list of names, but when I say lone wolf I mean making the videos generating all this confirmation bias.

Denmeade works with my MO, though not directly. He’s no lone wolf either I suppose, but every man I’ve known that is interested in BAT knows him so there’s that.

I’m not suggesting BAT doesn’t work, it just hasn’t been shown to work very often, at least not yet. It’s also risky for men with high risk disease.

I personally don’t agree there is ‘no doubt’ that if ADT is working you should stay on it. It depends on many factors of course.

All the clamor for testosterone supplementation is understandable- to a point. Return of testosterone can help, but it is often not the panacea that too many men hope for. Overall health and fitness play a outsized role, something most guys didn’t have going in.

in reply toLondon441

All excellent points!

Masirah profile image
Masirah

I have read similar information to that published by Dr. Morgentaler. I have wondered why, after being diagnosed with PCa, I was prescribed tablets that would reduce my testosterone. My doctors didn't test to see what my testosterone levels were. I was 70 years old earlier this year, and I am told that once men get past their 40s their testosterone naturally declines. Indeed if testosterone was a problem, why aren't far younger men suffering from PCa? I have read that it's estrogen that's the problem, yet the medication I was prescribed would have caused a hormone imbalance and resulted in increased estrogen in my body. The information I have uncovered came from peer reviewed research and was written by people with verifiable curriculum vitae. A lot of this information is decried by other scientists and people in the medical profession. It seems that, "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." Where does this leave people who have been diagnosed with PCa? Confused. All isn't as it appears to be.

tarhoosier profile image
tarhoosier

Masirah:Yes, it can be confusing. This is why there are randomized trials to provide proof of success or futility of treatments. There is a big difference between evidence and proof. Often a vast gulf of difference. In court, for example there is a succession of evidence presented, some effective some not, and it is only at the end that the jury decides if the evidence is sufficient to provide proof, in the legal sense. Medicine is somewhat like that. Many things you read may appear to provide evidence but are far, far from proof, which is what I want my doctor to trust.

Testosterone does normally decline with age yet it is not the cause of prostate cancer. An accumulation of nuclear defects and mutations in the cells is what can be said to be cancer. If your drug reduced testosterone the results would be apparent in one or more of several ways, first of all psa reduction. If your psa declined to an acceptable degree and you had the other effects of artificially lowered testosterone then a test for T would not be necessary though it would ease your mind and you could ask for it. I am not aware of the medication you take, but if it reduces T it does not increase estrogen. It changes the RATIO of T vs Estrogen.

It is good that you read here and consider the best of the posts from those considered knowledgeable and experienced. This should IN NO WAY substitute for your professional medical advice.

j-o-h-n profile image
j-o-h-n

22 out of 5? Now I've heard of everything!

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Sunday 09/19/2021 1:20 PM DST

Thanks. I bookmarked this post. I think the challenge is to find an oncologist or urologist who would be OK with this protocol. I expect that they would be quite difficult to find. Quality of life is a legitimate consideration if not a paramount consideration. That's why I chose HIFU over radiation. Excuse me while I duck now.

Spyder54 profile image
Spyder54

Guys, Take a few minutes and watch the video by Dr Morgentaler, below posted by addicted2cycling. BAT/mBAT: For it or against it, the video is worth a few minutes of your time. Best,

Mike

Break60 profile image
Break60

Patrick Thanks for this info. I consulted with Dr Morgentaler a few years back . It appears that he’s had a lot more experience with his theory since then since he wasn’t all that encouraging for a high risk guy like me ( gl9 and fast Psa dt when on ADT vacation) . For the last 2 1/2 years I’ve been on estradiol which is easier to handle than lhrh agonists.

Still I may contact him again.

Thanks

Bob

900312611 profile image
900312611

Testosterone Therapy in Men with Biochemical Recurrence and Metastatic Prostate Cancer: Where would people like myself fall into this category? About 5 years ago (70yo) I was Gleason 8, had IMRT and pellets; a year later PSA progressed to 1.95 (2 months after pellets was 0.46) and had Axumin pet scan which showed nothing, (4 months ago had CT for something other than PCa…but no known mets seen) Dr conference with 7 others back then thought I was biochemical recurrence (Northside Cancer Center Atlanta), since then my PSA has steadily dropped to 0.02 and stayed there for last 16 months . About 12 years prior to IMRT I was on TRT 600mg/every 3 weeks (low test; under 200), PSA was always around 1.84 for years while on TRT and testosterone was in 800+depending when tested …"everything" I read back then suggested it was estrogen, 'not' testosterone, that caused/progressed PCa…so if no BCR or metastatic PCa (known/seen) how would ones like myself fit into this?

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