Has anyone used SARMs?
Perhaps they would be useful for a BAT like program (SPT, SARM, SPT, SARM,...)
LGD-4033 is the main one that my doctor uses.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
The government is pursuing at least one RCT on a related SARM: clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...
Im very interested in this topic also.
I do not know an Oncologist who would be interested at all in this possible treatment or even TRT.
I am considering contacting Derek from more 'More Plates more Dates'.
youtube.com/channel/UCoR7CH...
or Coach Greg (youtube Greg Doucette)
for advice and consultation. Both are very experienced in SARMS.
I will be pursuing all avenues after my PSA nadir is reached (hopefully in a few months) .
Love your Blog ( prostatecancer.health.blog/ ) and your wiliness to push the envelope.
Chemo #2 tomorrow. So excited.
Thanks! I have been working on a book (free). drive.google.com/drive/fold...
I'll look into the people you mentioned. I'm going to ask my MO about SARMs (she's seen my super high testosterone results and now sort of trusts me). My NMD used to be a bodybuilder and he knows a bit about SARMs.
Yes your T is SUPER high. Were your T shots prescribed by a medical doctor? When I mention BAT to my General Practitioner or my Oncologist they are unaware generally of the research and highly suspicious of 'pouring kerosine on the fire'.
Im very motivated to try BAT in the new year. Whats the worst that could happen 
Here is video from Abraham Morgentaler, MD which I believe EVERY prostate cancer patient on ADT's should watch.
Mandatory viewing imo.
I was on estrogen patch ADT for 6 months but I decided that a few months with testosterone would be better than a lifetime of zero T (for me - we are all different and react differently). So I researched and studied the possible effects of high T vs. "normal" T. I discussed my plan with my NMD, showed him the data, he studied it, and eventually wrote me a script for cypionate. I didn't tell my MO for 6 months. I'm sure she had an idea though because some of my labs included testosterone. After a few months she was pleased with how well I was doing so I told her about the SPT. She's been on board ever since then (18 months). But of course, she can't tell me to do an anti-SOC therapy. So she simply smiles and says to "keep doing what you're doing because it's working".
I am a little worried about using high T for the long term. First, will the cancer population morph to thrive in a high T environment? Second, will known side effects bite me?
So I am considering cycling SPT with a SARM/Zytiga. Sort of a BAT plan but with more bone protection and more muscle growth protection (I have osteopenia and muscle mass appears to be tied to APC and overall mortality).
I'll write to Morgentaler and try to read between the lines.
Russ
Thanks Russ
I’m sitting in the Chemo chair as I write.
I just had a chat with my Oncologist re my Serum pathology report. PSA down to 11. He is unsure of PSA Nadir time frame. I’m still aiming for TRT or Sarms early next year.
Thank you so much for carving a potential path to follow. I have many plans to surf , ski and travel in the next year.
Jack
According to healthunlocked.com/api/redi... the effective SARMs are SARM-2F, GTX-024, T8039 and Cpd26. They basically do what supra T does but nobody has tried a human biphasic Trial. If it worked it would replace testosterone and become a candidate for SOC. (to the profit of the pharma)
I think it depends on the SARM and dose. LGD-4033 is supposedly 500x selective for skeletal muscle ARs vs prostate cancer cell ARs.
My current plan is to continue the high T until my PSA goes above 0.1.
From my book:
"1. For two weeks inject 400 mg/wk of testosterone cypionate. My testosterone will go very high and my body’s internal testosterone production will go to zero (I have been on high testosterone for many months so my internally produced testosterone is zero).
2. After 2 more weeks (4 weeks from my first injection) I will start taking a selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM) and Zytiga. Muscle mass is inversely correlated with prostate cancer survival and the SARM should allow me to continue building muscle even without testosterone. The SARM I plan on using is LGD-4033. It selectively binds to the skeletal muscle androgen receptors and should react very little with the prostate cancer cells. Zytiga reduces testosterone production through CYP17 inhibition.
3. After 6 more weeks (8 weeks from my first injection) repeat the first step.
4. Note that the timing might change. It will depend on when my serum testosterone reaches a low level (<50 ng/dl). The dose of Zytiga will be 250 mg/day taken with a fatty meal. I am not sure what the SARM dosage will be. And I might increase the cypionate dosage to 600 mg.
"
SERMs were developed years ago for breast cancer (e.g. tamoxifen). SARMs were developed for prostate cancer and cancer cachexia as well as bone loss. The actual use is TBD.
Thank you for posting. I should be paying more attention to SARMs
SARM GTX-024 seems readily available on body building sites. Its other names are Endobosarm. Ostarine and MK-2866. Dosage for body building is about 30mg/d. We just do not know the interactions of SARMs with PCa, there are no human trials to go on. One area where there is still a question in my mind is that SARMs by definition target only androgen receptors (AR) whereas supra T not only targets ARs but many other mechanisms to disable the PCa cell (eg double strand DNA breaks) I think there are at least 6 other mechanisms that do not depend on ARs. So your proposed pathway has obvious risks that you have no doubt considered. I wish you well. Report on your progress regularly. I am sure there are many of us interested. I was an early user of BAT and although pretty much everyone from my oncs down and responders to my first post, advised the high risk nature of the treatment, I at least had the advantage of knowledge of a couple of phase 2 trials from the Johns Hopkins group, so I knew what to expect, what to do and when to bail. The only practical human intell we have of SARMs comes from body builders. Nothing on biphasic uses.
Why the zytiga? If its to approximate castration to try a BAT style process (cycling SARM and ADT) then you should consider one of the primary ADT agents that prevent the major sources from producing natural T.
Best wishes and do report.
I'll certainly keep you all updated if I change therapies. For the time being supra-physiological testosterone (SPT) is my main therapy. Supplements, diet, and exercise play a part but quite possibly only a smaller role. If I was hard up for cash I wouldn't mess with supplements at all. I think that exercise is more important than sups and it can be free. Diet is even simpler. I can easily choose what to eat and what not to. But probably not nearly as important as exercise and muscle mass.
From day one I did things out of the box. Risky but I have a very driven personality and like to be in control (I'm trying to work on that when it interferes with the family :).
We didn't have trials on estrogen patches in 2019 (or at least I hadn't seen them). I took a shot and it worked. Four different doctors told me it wouldn't work and wouldn't drop my T. Well... my T was undetectable.
No trials of SPT that I know of. I took a shot at SPT anyway. I didn't even bother to ask my MO what she thought of it. No reason other than a horror story that would likely involve my untimely demise. I told her after about 6 months or so. Now she just tells me to keep doing what I'm doing.
SARMs are another speculation and I rather doubt that I'm going to find anything concrete outside of some cell studies and perhaps a case study or two (I'm not holding my breath for the case studies). I don't plan on using SARMs until my PSA dictates that I do something. SPT might continue working until I die of something other than cancer. If it does, great. But if my PSA and PSADT dictates or cardiac issues become apparent, I need to have a plan. And chemo and SOC ADT aren't parts of it. I respect the opinions of others but I personally prefer death to chemo or ADT (I might take that back when I stare death in the face). I could, however, see myself doing radiation. I was going to do radiation last year but my MO talked me out of it.
Conventional Lupron would work better than Zytiga. It would also wreak some havoc on me and I don't want to go there. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, my MO agrees with my past decision not to do Lupron and she recently told me that she doesn't ever see SOC ADT for me. I do have an open mind about Relugolix though and thank you for making me rethink it. Possibly as part of a pseudo-BAT-like SPT/SARM plan...
Best wishes to you also Kap!
Too funny...
'chemo and SOC ADT aren't parts of it'
Im on ADT's for 5 months and second Chemo yesterday.
Signs of Liver Damage already.
ALT was 15 in March, up to 56 after a few months on Eligard, 118 after first Docetaxel. Healthy ALT range is 5 - 40. Oncologist looks a little worried after Liver Damage. Any major change before next Chemo will see me not proceed. PSA fell from 17 to 11 after first Chemo. Not a great success imo.
I shall die like a man. Not a crumpled up, bald gutless mouse.
Going to smash some weights.
I'm so not trying to turn anyone away from chemo or ADT. In my case, I'll try lots of other things because, like you, I want to die like a man (love your statement!) and I love smashing the weights.
Read up on SARMs yesterday. Your summary is correct. Not sure I would go there at this time. Still evaluating my own cyclic Supra-T program. Current cycle was 400 mg T cyp every two weeks for six weeks (3 doses) then 8 weeks of no treatment. Checking labs next Monday. I Like the longer cycles on and off because my cancer is currently slow growing. PSA response and T will indicate if I need T suppression during off cycles. Using Zytiga alone for that is probably entirely adequate to produce castrate T levels, as has recently been shown without a standard ADT drug, so that sounds reasonable to me.
Hoping for some human early data from trials of SARMs in PC. Seven Phase 1 trials in the works in various settings. Only one in PC.
Thanks Paul. I'm tentatively planning on cycling SARMs/Zytiga with SPT. My PSA is 0.039 and I don't think I'll take action until it is over 0.1. For the time being, I'll ride the SPT wave pending cardiac or cancer issues.
SARMs RAD 140 up date
Batman BAT study updated
could be of interest for those on BAT
question about iADT or BAT
