I attempt to stay away from soy-based products.
Soy: I attempt to stay away from soy... - Advanced Prostate...
Soy
93 Replies
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Thank God...Nattokinase does not cause problems according to this study. I do use Nattokinase capsules ..2 to 3 times a week.
Doesn't necessarily support consumption in moderation. If we go with those lines then some trans-fats and some arsenic would be ok or perhaps even supported?
I have read much literature on estrogen and discussed the subject with doctors (e.g. Dr. Nal).
This is not necessarily a complete treatise on soy. More a retrospective overview of some people.
The severity of soy and phytoestrogens does depend on your hormonal milieu and your goals.
But I agree that it is rather useless for the average American.
I don't see how that study necessarily supports moderate consumption of soy. The fact that the study suggested high intake of soy and isoflavones might increase the risk of prostate cancer mortality doesn't necessarily tell us that moderate intake of soy has no potential risk.But it does seem apparent from the abundance of soy studies that there is both potential benefit and potential harm from isoflavones, for different populations and individuals, because of their high affinity for estrogen-receptor beta and potential influence on hormonal balance, as well as other effects. So on its own, the study is not useful, but perhaps it has some contribution to the overall collection of soy studies.
in reply to noahware
Noahware, I was making the assumption that forum members had read other studies.
Your assessment that this study doesn't stand alone but might add to the other estrogen studies is precisely why I posted this (I found it on examine.com).
ERb appears to be a double edged sword. Pro cancer and anticancer actions. I'm trying to piece together thoughts on ERb, DHT, progesterone, and others. The research is all over the map.
noahware in reply to
Yes, that's why it's always good to read multiple view points. I really don't know WHAT I can conclude about soy with any certainty (I am guessing it might be both good and bad)... but when in doubt, leave it out!
And all I can conclude about estrogen itself is that I don't want to deprive myself of it altogether. After looking at the existing data from the PATCH trial, high-dose estrogen seems like a reasonable and even preferable form of ADT.
in reply to noahware
I did estrogen patch ADT. I think it is preferrable to Lupron. One of the factors that helped form my decision was bone loss. Estrogen prevents. Lupron assists.
Now I'm doing supraphysiological testosterone and taking an AI to reduce estrogen. My estrogen went way too low so I titrated the AI dose and on the last test estradiol was 25 pg/ml. We need some estrogens. Without them massive bone loss and cardio issues.
What point?
Help myself how?
What are the nits?
j-o-h-n in reply to
Lice.....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Tuesday12/01/2020 6:14 PM EST
If you can point out specific nutrients in soy that we need please do so. But, IMO, telling someone that they posted a "useless" study and then coming up with opinions without any facts behind them isn't helpful.
maley2711 in reply to
don't vegetations use soy as a protein source/
I am a member of a number of other prostate cancer groups. This one is known for having some extremely smart and very helpful people. But it is also known for having some highly unpleasant individuals who seem to enjoy hurting rather than helping. Many of the people I know have concluded that lurking but not posting is the best option and I will follow their lead.
Hopefully I "might" understand what is posted.
GeorgeGlass in reply to
You're right on the money about that. I'm not sure why this site is different. Maybe because it's international. I asked about psa doubling time once, and a guy said, wow, you probably won't live very long. Another group of guys were blabbing about how great Biden is, and said i should eat a gun and kill myself because i didn't agree. Another guy went bonkers and was out of his mind trying to convince everyone that there is no God. Unfortunately the moderator of this website doesn't control any of the hate speech, which is why there is so much on here. It would be fine if it were on Facebook or somewhere like that, but not on a cancer forum. There are some great people on here though. You just have to take the evil crazies along with the good guys.
tom67inMA in reply to
This is the only group I'm active in. I typically find that a lot of smart people lack tactfulness. Not just here, but everywhere. Hang out with a bunch of engineers and you'll probably notice this too.
I'd also like to point out that calling a study useless is not an ad-hominin attack. It is an attack against the study, not the poster of the study. Unless somebody says specifically "You are an idiot for posting this", don't take it personally.
Finally, as to the study itself, I believe elsewhere in the comments somebody else mentioned that many studies have found that many foods are "bad" in large quantities. I drink a bit of soy milk to reduce my consumption of normal cow-milk because that has also rumored to be bad. Soy is also rumored to help with hot flashes, so may have a short term benefit that outweighs any long term risk for some people. Studies of individual foods cause a lot of over-reaction IMHO, and don't give a good idea of where the food fits in the overall risk/benefit spectrum. My anecdotal evidence says that eating full fat ice cream during chemotherapy produces a great response to treatment. Or perhaps treatment effects overwhelm dietary effects in the short term, and if you're not going to survive your cancer for multiple years diet becomes uninteresting. My personal opinion.
in reply to tom67inMA
Thanks. Agreed. I tend to have thin skin (despite being an engineer for 30 years!).
I was an engineer for a medical company and the infighting and backstabbing was intense. Arguments would become shouting matches. I usually extricated myself from those situations but every once in a while I would engage. And I have a very loud voice so I would "win" - eventually...
We do need to figure out what works for us in our specific situations. Genotypes/phenotypes/cancer stage/QoL desires/therapies all play into this. My main therapy right now is high testosterone (>3000 ng/dl) and two of my most enjoyable pastimes are BJJ and weightlifting. So I have a unique set of issues to balance.
As an aside, if I get covid, I'll do my best to survive it and my plan entails estrogen, decreasing testosterone to normal physiologic levels, increasing vitamin D3, and increasing progesterone. Many of my therapies/drugs/supplements are targeted to reduce inflammation and increase immune system activity. So these will probably remain the same (e.g. I reduce prostaglandins, increase the 7-keto DHEA metabolite).
Beating PCa just to die of something else makes it rather moot.
tom67inMA in reply to
Years ago I was in a meeting where an engineer made the "mistake" of saying his project schedule was slipping because he had spent time fighting a fire that had came up (including working over the weekend). The manager told him that wasn't a valid reason for slipping a schedule. Voices became raised, and I recall they both stood up. Me and the other guy in the room began looking for protective cover if fists started flying next.
The company I worked for at for the last 20 years wasn't nearly that bad, but of course there are always difficult personalities. The best advice I ever got was that if you can learn to deal with them it will be good for your career. The same person also recommended the books "Getting to Yes" and "Difficult Conversations".
As for Covid, I recently saw something about an observation that immunocompromised children did BETTER if they got Covid than those with normal immune function. It seems you want some immune system to fight off the virus (obviously), but anything above that level just causes more problems with inflammation and so forth. It sort of coincides nicely with the use of dexamethasone in some Covid patients. We know a lot more about how to fight the disease than we did months ago, if only we can keep the hospitals from overflowing and thus reducing the quality of treatment.
in reply to tom67inMA
Interesting. I've also read some stuff about the immune system overreaction (cytokine storm). I'll have to think about how to apply that to my "covid plan".
The schedule slip story brings back bad memories. I recall working 80+ hours a week for 6 weeks straight to get a "rush" development completed.
But, prior to the rush project being assigned to me, I was asked how long an unrelated project would take me to complete and I thought it would take about a month.
You can probably see where this is going.... After the end of the 6 weeks, I was done with the rush project but got flak because I wasn't done with the other project when I said it would take a month. I patiently explained that it was a month if I worked on it. But since I wasn't able to the project didn't get done. I remember sarcastically adding that the work doesn't magically get done by little elves. And then I told the manager that if he really wanted both completed then he could pony up and do something useful and help me instead of pushing papers and writing unrealistic schedules. The manager was hopping mad but the GM liked me so I stayed and the manager was eventually fired.
tom67inMA in reply to
Yikes! Yes, a very similar story. Funny thing is, I now find myself distorting reality in a manner similar to these managers (not to quite such an extreme) with regards to my cancer and it's treatment. I unrealistically expect exceptional results from treatment, and it makes it easier to cope with the side effects, and so far I have generally gotten better than average results.
I use ..2000 U one capsule 2 to 3 times a week.
I don't see how anyone can possibly use the information in this ABSTRACT to base anything definitive on when it comes to what and what not to consume. Without first reading the entire study (which unfortunately I can't afford to buy at $223 USD) it's impossible to determine exactly how the study was conducted and whether or not it is even useful. The fact that this study is a 'PROSPECTIVE' study means that none of the 45K men included were even diagnosed with prostate cancer. So why would anyone with advanced prostate cancer believe anything about any potential 'death risk' that this abstract purports?
I also think that posting that one believes and is following what the abstract says is a disservice to those community members who are not familiar with reading, comprehending, and analyzing studies to arrive at their own informed decision.
Good post man. I don't want soy either. Estrogens make you a girl (a 'moderate' girl is still a girl). Some of the posters on here are too much! Can't read for themselves and try to call you out. Seems like they have problems - maybe too much estrogen 
Go hard or go home!
in reply to
Lol! I was on estrogen to mimic ADT and reduce my T to zero. So I, unfortunately, know what estrogen does to a man. But once I stopped the E and the phytoestrogens I changed back. I hope that anyone who is in this boat can beat the PCa and return to what God intended them to be.
By the way, go hard or go home, and just do it, are two of my favorite phrases.
in reply to
Just don't eat that soy dude. You'll be one of the girlymen 
in reply to
Not gonna happen Rock. Two girlymen on this site are enough.
maley2711 in reply to
no idea of what they mean?
in reply to maley2711
Soy increases estrogenic action and makes men more feminine. None of the athletes that I know will touch soy and they all stay away from phytoestrogens and plastics too.
I apologize, sometimes I get carried away. I was calling some of the whiners on this site "girlymen" because that word means a person born a man who has become feminine. Again, I apologize. A crude gym-rat term and I was trying to be humorous but it was low brow and uncalled for. I got tired of reading the unsubstantiated slams on RSH1 and his post.
You are wasting your time, this study is so full of holes as to be useless!
in reply to billyboy3
Unsubstantiated comments are useless! Give me some data. Convince me to eat soy Billyboy!
in reply to
I also would like to encourage Billy to give us data. You know what they say "data talks but bullshit walks".
I imagine vegetarians might be concerned about this very tentaive study....note, in the conclusion, the use of "might" ??? anything "might"?
in reply to maley2711
I'm vegan and I get 100-225 grams of protein a day. Yesterday I got 212. I typically keep it a lot lower but once a week I let it go high (rest day). In my 20s I was a bodybuilder and got my protein from rice and lentils. I was dirt poor and found that the combo makes a complete protein. I weighed 235 and had 6% bodyfat. My point is not to show off my 1980s metrics I am just trying to point out that if someone wants to get vegan protein without resorting to soy they can.
And you are 100% correct. Lots of mights. Personally, I don't appreciate it when authors take data and make supposedly solid conclusions. I don't recall the exact numbers and but I think it's something like 50% of what scientists believe will be refuted in 50 years' time.
This is an interesting paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
Me too!
I am always interested in how studies in Asia compare to studies in the west. There is a high consumption of soy products in much of Asia and men there have a very low rate of Prostate Cancer compared to the west. Sadly when they immigrate and start eating a western or SAD their rates compare to their western European counterparts. Minor anecdotal experience, I am married to a Korean woman and know quite a number of Korean men 60 plus who eat a more traditional Korean diet that includes quite a bit of soy products and I don't know any of them who have been diagnosed with prostate cancer...I cannot say the same for my American counterparts.
in reply to SooHwa99
Do you think it might be the green tea? I don't know nearly as much as RSH1 but I've read lots of studies on green tea and EGCG. I read one study that concluded that green tea overcame the effects of soy.
I also think that fat has a lot to do with cancer formation. Like you, just minor anecdotal experience, but my Korean friends, while stocky, are more muscular than almost all of my American friends (two notable exceptions of American Caucasian men but they are both athletes).
SooHwa99 in reply to
It can be very hard to distill lifestyle specifics and projection of disease in some specific food products. There is clear evidence that whatever men in Asia are doing in how they live and what they eat in total has minimized the risk of prostate cancer.
in reply to SooHwa99
It is indeed difficult. I have read volumes on estrogen and how it helps initiate and grow PCa. So it is easy for me to think that soy is bad. At the same time though, I have questions about how it interacts with various foods/lifestyles/genetics and even PCa stages.
And no dispute from me that Asians (and certain other cultures) do far better from a PCa standpoint than Americans.
in reply to
I think it might be the EGCG and also synergists in green tea. And they eat more fiber and less trans fats than we do. Average BMI is lower.
They eat allot of kimchi too, which is a cancer fighter.
Any Korean meal includes at least a dozen or so "side dishes" called Ban Chan, which include many vegetables thaf are pickled/fermented in one way or another. Kim Chee is not just the napa cabbage. Many other vegetables are Kim Chee prebiotic dishes.
Obviously diet needs to be looked at in it's entirety, but they eat a lot of soy products as do Japanese and other Asian cultures.
Perhaps there is something counteracting it's effects if there is one. I just find it odd that the amount of tofu consumption does not corespond to increased prostate cancer in the population. It defies reality.
I ate all that food. I lived in Korea two different times for a year each. I eat kimchee daily now as well. The Japanese and Koreans have almost no prostate cancer until they start eating the western diet and then their rates skyrocket. You know the deal.
in reply to SooHwa99
I think you're on the right track. I eat some kimchi and drink green tea. In no way am I certain but I'm going to guess that soy is negative but that they have so many other things that are positives that they swamp out a negative or two.
Reminds me that I'm out of kimchi.
My hunch is that once one has PCa diet helps bolster the immune system and can reduce inflammation but it likely won't kill or control the cancer entirely by itself.
Again, just speculation, perhaps if some therapies are sufficient to control PCa 95% then clean diet and exercise might bump you over the edge.
I'll look into Ban Chan. I'm like a little kid with my veggie tastes (broccoli - bleh!) but I tend to like fermented and pickled foods.
Eating soy is for girls.
in reply to ck722
That's what I think too. If one of my friends eats soy products I try to educate them on what I think and why and then let them make up their own mind. So far, most of them err on the side of caution and dump the soy.
One can pull out any number of studies that show that soy is or is not responsible for prostrate cancer or is detrimental to health in PCa. This kind of study is meaningless. mdanderson.org/publications....
in reply to binati
Agreed. The study in the link isn't even a study. No data, just an opinion.Even so, I like to look into opinions. Every once in a while one pans out.
Way too lazy to read the paper. What is soy going to do? Kill me? Hahahahahaha
in reply to mrscruffy
Yes. Soy is the Tongan name for Godzilla.
And as we all know, Godzilla doesn't have PCa.
Interesting. My oncologist at Dana Farber encourages me to eat soy to increase phytoestrogens.
in reply to Eddy-Merckx
If you don't mind, could you ask him what he thinks of estrogen - in particular in combination with high testosterone?
Eddy-Merckx in reply to
Will do. In my case, she said that Lupron slightly reduces estrogen in addition to limiting testosterone production. The soy helps increase estrogen to a healthy level.
I’ve been using soy milk daily in my coffee since dx in order to avoid dairy. I’ve grown to enjoy it and go through quite a bit every week. Almost 7 years now and it hasn’t seemed to affect my PCa.I noticed the conclusions of the study use the words suggest and might and don’t really define what a high intake is.
Ed
in reply to EdBar
I hardly think a little soy is going to do you harm. I like sugar free candy and popcorn (air popped - microwave might kill you ). Those are my vices (and a rare dessert). A lot to be said for QoL.
To me this study makes a pretty good case that isoflavones and soy are not protective against PC nor PC death in Japanese men. I find that interesting in the overall complicated role of estrogens and PC. The lively discussion is humorous. Don’t let it get you down about your posts amigo.
in reply to MateoBeach
Thanks Mateo. You're one of the half dozen people who make this site worthwhile.
A little soy isn't likely to change the course of the cancer. I stay away from it as much as I can though. Too many "littles" add up to a big.
Lol! By the way bro, I'll destroy you on the mats.
Reminds me of High School.
Just a word to the wise: if a post doesn't help you, let it go. Move on. How much time have you wasted commenting on this? And if you comment again I'll be forced to conclude that you enjoy wasting your time.
BJJ today. Still wasting your time reading and posting?
I think it was Rock who called you a girly man. I merely agreed that there are some weak-minded individuals on this forum. The "kick your ass" proves it to me. Lol!
I have the natto serra. I think it's from doctors best.
in reply to GeorgeGlass
Sigh. Just can't get over the High School mentality.
in reply to
You're wasting your time RSH1. I've dealt with people like this XP dude. They never change.
in reply to
Gotta admit though, it's fun messing with this guy. The little kid threats make my day!
in reply to
Remember: we have no idea what he does or does not do. Other than providing us humor for the day.
Ok, I'm done. Site manager is likely to kick us out and then I wouldn't be able to read the little guy's rants.
Kick my ass in the gym? Think about going back to grade school. Perhaps you'll learn something 3rd time through. LOL!!!!!
thanks for sharing this RSH1😀
I have read conflicting 'stuff' about soy for awhile. I avoided 'it' for the longest time, then'jumped' on the bandwagon a few months ago. I refer to isoflavones.
Afer reading the report, I dumped my 'supplement' in the garbage.
NEVER again - it has been controversial for what seems to be an ever swinging pendulum.
The numbers speak for themselves - ENOUGH participants to give credibility to the conclusions.
I'm DONE with SOY !!!!
Thanks for posting and sharing ......
in reply to RonnyBaby
I went back and forth on soy also. I bought flaxseed. Took it for a while. Threw it out. Then some doctor talked me into it. I bought some more. Took it for a while. Threw it out. (flaxseed has similar estrogenic actions as soy)
I think that these large population studies help. Too many times a low-quality study comes to an erroneous conclusion (or a metastudy of low-quality studies). I learn as I go along. RCTs can also be of low quality and biased. We need to dive into biology and look for good data.
RonnyBaby in reply to
I also DUMPED my flax seeds. I read within these forums that the 'oil' is NOT the culprit, but the seeds are problematic.
I used flax for Omega 3 - NOW, I'm back on the fish oil - no concerns about that (depends on the source of course). You can get 'flavoured' fish oil if it bothers you that much.
It's the omega 3 that we need - which happens to be anti-inflammatory, amongst other things ....
noahware in reply to
So flax... I was just about to take that up again myself, after reading about omega-3 and -6's. Not trying to set you up for more attacks, LOL, but would be interested in seeing a post discussing pros and cons of flax.
in reply to noahware
Sure. I was back on forth on this and eventually decided no flax for me. I'd like to hear what others think and read any articles they might offer. Flax might be preventative but, as we know, preventing cancer is different than controlling existing cancer.
I'll post something when I have time (working on a school project with my little boy). And let the flame war begin! Lol!
You are too funny! Ever think about stand up comedy?
"This post didn't help anyone."
So the people who hit the "like" button did so by accident, LOL?
Yet another guy on this forum who decides because HE doesn't like a post, then nobody does. Which is fine. But what compels you guys to then POST that opinion and tell other people what they should or shouldn't post, and should or shouldn't find interesting, if not useful?
in reply to noahware
Lol! True. I didn't even think of that. I'll continue posting. If someone finds it helpful, great. If they don't, hopefully they will just move on.
I think they eat way too much soy in the larger cities.
Would feed your dog soy? Cat? Sister?
in reply to ck722
Dog or cat, maybe. Wife, no. Her mother has breast cancer so we're working on a hormone program for my wife.
j-o-h-n in reply to
Soy in spanish means "I am"...... I am enjoying this post...It reminds me of a Chinese fire drill....Thanks guys...
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Tuesday 12/01/2020 6:55 PM EST
Could you do us a favor and shut your jealous trap? RSH1 texted me and he's ignoring your grade school banter. I'm going to take his lead and ignore you from now on. But one last thing: you are a pathetic loser and it comes across. Life must have treated you poorly and now you have issues.
Now scurry back to the hole you crept out of. You are a waste of flesh.
Well, I've seen plenty of posts here that are not strictly "helpful" in the context of medical PC treatment or prevention, including humor and philosophical musings. When one of my favorites guys here, Whimp-y, posted a picture of his breakfast recently, and nobody deemed it necessary to post a reply stating his post was "useless" or "unhelpful" and without any direct relation to PC.
It goes without saying that a single article or study should always be approached in the context of how it fits in with all other related studies and theories. Your position seems to be, since you can't build anything with a single brick, single bricks are useless. Maybe. But when something seems questionable, it is easy to challenge assertions or conclusions without being dismissive and combative... or is it?
in reply to noahware
At first I admit I wasn't pleased to say the least.But as the posts degraded into 3rd grade attacks it became humorous (Rock and XP are nothing less than a comedy show!).
My wife is happy also. She's in her 40s and to be mistaken for a teenager... in her words "the best criticism ever". She's calling her friends to tell them. Seriously, she's on the phone as I write this. Me, of course, I LOVE having someone tell me my wife looks great. I think she does and she knows that. Amazing woman and brightens every day for me. For someone else to acknowledge this gives me a warm fuzzy.
in reply to
RSH1, I saw your profile pic and XP01 is right. Your wife could pass for a 20-year-old. Good job man. Wow! Does she have a sister?
Seriously dude, my jaw hit the floor.
And don't take this the wrong way but you look great. What do you do for workouts? Message me and let me know. Thanks.
in reply to
After school is over today I'll message you with my workout guidelines. And thanks! I'll tell my wife. Or maybe not, after XP's comment her head is already too big to fit through the doorways. And thanks XP. I don't think you meant to compliment us but you made my wife's day.
Yes! Do you ride?
I used to do dirt bikes, Afraid of the road.
Should I now avoid water?
I do, since fish fornicate in it.........
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Tuesday12/01/2020 6:12 PM EST
Answer- your bike riding: "My favorite is the very hilly".....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Tuesday12/01/2020 6:42 PM EST
My brother-in-laws father smoked cigars. He smoked one the day before he died. He was 95.
my god, we have all lost our minds, and this over soya.
Hey boys, all things in moderation!!!!!
We still do NOT Know what causes prostate cancer in totality. We do know that some risk factors appear to show up. That said, living, eating and looking after oneself i.e. no smoking, less drinking etc. all help us to live longer but none of what we do will cure us, so live large, enjoy life and rock on!!!!!!
in reply to billyboy3
Kudos.
I like an occasional slice of German Chocolate cake. With ice cream. Is it healthy? I seriously, seriously doubt it and I'd be willing to bet that a little soy is less harmful than cake. But do I want to live a dry meaningless life devoid of pleasure? Nope. So gimme the slice of cake. Gimme the testosterone injections. Gimme the gym. Gimme life.
I don't have a taste for soy products. So, to clear things up a little, I was stating what I do. I avoid soy. Doesn't mean that everyone has to. Or anyone for that matter. But maybe someone on the fence reads this article, dives into the research, and decides that they don't want to mess with soy.
THE FACT IS THAT LITTLE we do at this late stage is going to make a huge difference in terms of how long we live!!!! Better to have a high quality of life for the time remaining than to linger in hell having little joy along the way!!
SO LIVE LARGE, make up your own bucket list and get at it!!!!!!!!!
I just had a bowl of chocolate geletto with lemon sorbet, so so good. !!!!
Bought a few trinkets to make my life easier-electric soap dispenser for one, some plastic 14 oz glasses so I stop breaking the glass ones because I cannot grasp well sometimes!!!
If you're interested I can message you with the details. Like you I work out 5-6 days a week and do cardio every day. Not much cardio because I don't want to overdo the exercise and I know I'm close. I try to limit it to 60-minute blocks. 1-3 a day.
But message me if you're interested and I'll give you some example workouts and principles. Mostly old school bodybuilding stuff. Some strength programs but not as much now since as I get older I focus more on lean mass.
I used to be an engineer also. I retired a little early because the backstabbing and infighting at my company was insane (I wasn't the only one who thinks that).
I wish I didn't have APC. Maybe they got it all out in surgery but the chances are pretty slim. Mayo gave me 3 months. That was 2 years ago. My goal is to be here long enough to raise my little boy. Then I'll be happy to go. Well, maybe not happy, but not as sad.
That's the reason I do BJJ and workout so much. I want to be able to do things with my son. Throw him in the air. That kind of dad thing.
I need to watch the salt. I'm sodium-sensitive and my BP starts going up. I guess that's not common but it is what it is.
I suppose it's best to eat daily kimchi but in small portions to lower the salt. I bought some tempah at the store today. I think it's better for you than tofu.
I know what you mean - I have cut back on cycling and high-intensity efforts like hills wipe me out. However, I feel pretty good using TrainerRoad’s Sweet Spot Base program. I am hoping my body will adapt.
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