I found a source for Vitamin K which appears to have the highest potency that I have seen on the market: Koncentrated K - The Original. It should also be noted that the website is quite comprehensive and well researched.
k-vitamins.com/index.php?pa...
I would appreciate opinions and knowing how many illustrious members of this forum purchase from this supplier.
I have been using Life Extensions Super K for the last 2 years but have wondered whether it is sufficient.
Cheers, Phil
Unless you are supplementing for another purpose, you may want to avoid Vitamin K based on this:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
Yes, I am aware of this article which has come up in previous postings. I have not been able to reconcile the findings presented to the overall potential benefit of taking K, especially since I am on Lupron. I will review again. In wonder what Patrick has to say. Cheers, Phil
Note that that was a meta-analysis of clinical, observational studies. You have mentioned elsewhere that you appreciate my evaluating the quality of the confusing, sometimes conflicting results of all these studies. Here are some general (n.b.: the quality of the study matters too) rules:
• Randomized clinical trials (RCTs) supersede observational studies
• Association is not causation - only RCTs prove causation
• Studies that simulate randomization (e.g, Mendelian randomization, propensity score matching with abundant sample size) supersede observational studies that don't
• database studies often don't have data on all possible confounders (e.g.,the Swedish database suggesting a benefit to cholera vaccine did not include the number of PSA tests taken)
• clinical studies supersede all lab/animal studies
• meta-analysis and multi-institutional studies supersedes individual institution studies
• replication and plausibility are important
• Peer-review is important
• Good study design (e.g., pre-specifying endpoints, blinding) is important
• Given equal quality, bigger is better (e.g., STAMPEDE vs CHAARTED)
It is my opinion that any suggestion of harm of a non-proven medication is reason enough to avoid it. When this meta-analysis suggests that a Vitamin K antagonist may be beneficial, why would anyone in his right mind do the opposite (take Vitamin K)?
Hello Tall Allen, your rules for evaluating studies are of course very good and correct - Thank you.
After my diagnosis of PSA >30, Gleason 9, and >5 metastases in early 2016 I did a very fast survey of standard of care as well as drugs and phytochemicals that could be used as adjuvants to improve therapy outcomes and slow progression and developed a preliminary regimen to follow; there have been significant changes in diet and exercise levels as well. Over the last several months I have been going through a slow process of reviewing the initial regimen and deleting some items that have been deemed to not efficacious. I have kept some not for their anticancer effects but other side effects, such as reduced arthritis. I have posted in this forum previously that I am a strong believer/supporter of evidence based medicine and have been essentially following SOC since diagnosis.
I started taking Vitamin K because of I have been on ADT since diagnosis and run the risk of reduced bone density and increased fractures, and wanted to reduce the risk of the latter at all costs. Vitamin D and calcium may not be sufficient to maintain bone density and there is the risk of calcium accumulation in the arteries. I obtained my calcium from diet for the first 3.5 years and in the last 6 month have started taking ~700 mg/day at the insistence of my MO (we compromised, I am taking less than what he recommended). According to the literature, VK promotes deposition on bones and reduces it in arteries (MO has no training in this area). There is also support for taking zinc, magnesium and strontium (see ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl.... My last bone density scan indicated that my bone density was within the normal range. I attribute this result primarily to exercise and the possible contribution of supplements.
Many of the phytochemicals and drugs (e.g., aspirin, naproxen, indomethacin, dipyridmole, cimetidine) I take are anticoagulants or can the increase prothrombin times, so it would appear that taking some VK may be indicated. It should be noted that my bleeding time from cuts and nosebleeds are just slightly longer than normal.
I have reviewed the Vitamin K issue and have the following articles supporting the use of Vitamin K, or least it non-harmfulness:
“Vitamin K and its analogs: Potential avenues for prostate cancer management”,
Subramanyam Dasari, et al, Oncotarget, 2017, Vol. 8, (No. 34), pp: 57782-57799
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
“Dietary intake of vitamin K and risk of prostate cancer in the Heidelberg cohort of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC-Heidelberg)”, Katharina Nimptsch, Am J Clin Nutr 2008;87:985–92. Printed in USA. © 2008 American Society for Nutrition
academic.oup.com/ajcn/artic...
Vitamin K intake and prostate cancer risk in the Prostate, Lung, Colorectal, and Ovarian Cancer (PLCO) Screening Trial”, Margaret Hoyt, et al, Am J Clin Nutr 2019;00:1–10
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/306...
“Vitamin K2, a Naturally Occurring Menaquinone, Exerts Therapeutic Effects on Both Hormone-Dependent and Hormone-Independent Prostate Cancer Cells”, Abhilash Samykutty, et al, Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine Volume 2013, Article ID 287358, 15 pages
dx.doi.org/10.1155/2013/287358
“Use of vitamin K antagonists and risk of prostate cancer: Meta-analysis and nationwide case-control study.”, Kristensen KB, et al, Int J Cancer. 2019 Apr 1;144(7):1522-1529. doi: 10.1002/ijc.31886. Epub 2018 Nov 13.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/302...
On balance, I am taking VK primarily to maintain bone density and to offset the effects of the other drugs (and maybe for the slight anticancer effect).
Sincerely, Philip
Hi Tall-Allen,
I would like to ask what you think about vit K2mk7 (nattokinase). In Europe, this vitamin (with vit D3) is especially popular in patients with bone metastases.
What is the clinical evidence for efficacy and safety of either vitamin?
After a DEXA scan, my NP recommended a calcium supplement. I started with calcium/vitamin D3 combo, but backed off after reading your comments on calcium supplements when your calcium is in the normal range. Continued with vitamin D3 at daily dose of 50mcg (2000 IU) because blood test showed I was low in Vitamin D3.
Then I added Vitamin K2 (100mcg daily) in the hopes that more of my calcium would be absorbed in my bones rather than in my arteries or heart.
Does your comment about vitamin K apply to my use of vitamin K2?
My bone mets are described as innumerable, T and PSA are undetectable, and I have been on Zytiga/Predniszone/Lupron for 30 months (no pain yet). Gleason 5+4.
If you have osteoporosis on a DEXA scan, talk to your MO about a bone strengthening agent. If you are mildly osteopenic, you may be able to increase your bone density with weight-bearing exercise.
I have only slight bone loss. I take your answer to mean that I should drop the use of Vitamin K2. I'll do so and concentrate on exercise. Thanks for replying.
I really have no opinion on it
Sorry, I must have not understood. I have read that vitamins D3 and K2 work together to improve the absorption of calcium into the bone and minimize the problems of calcification of arterial walls as well as problems resulting from too much calcium entering into the heart. Since you have no opinion on K2, I take back my previous comment---I'll continue with K2 (along with D3). I will, however, follow your suggestion about weight bearing exercise.
One must be skeptical of things one reads in random places.
OK. I just now used google with the search phrase "vitamin K2 benefits for osteoporosis". The link below occurred in the search results:
healthline.com/nutrition/vi...
I will add other K2-related links on my website (as time permits). They can be accessed at woodwardworks.com/vitamin_k...
It looks like more research would be nice, but it still looks like a good bet to me. I will keep researching it because of your cautionary remark.
I have been taking Koncentrated K since May of 2015, though in the past I was taking it more like a few times a week, the last 6 months every day.
I can't say for sure it helped or hurt anything. I have a fluctuating PSA that has gone as high as 4.8, currently 4.1, which was the reason I got on this forum.
I was mainly taking K to see if it lowered my CAC score.
I am 67 and my first CAC score in May 2018 was 79 with put me in the 45 percentile, and I got a second CAC in June 2019 which was 119 and put me in the 30 percentile. Percentile 30 meaning 70% of men my age had a higher CAC score, higher being more negative.
This was done at two different hospitals which may mean it was interpreted differently, and despite having a higher CAC score my "percentile" went down.
I will likely get another CAC score near the end of 2020 or beginning of 2021.
Generally, you can find a coupon for Koncentrated K that gives you a 30% discount.
CAC? Coronary artery calcium score? I started on LEF's Super K 10 years ago when my calcium score was 880. I have no idea what it is now, but probably not any better, hopefully not too much worse. And I've had PC the entire time. It's hard to reconcile the two competing diseases.
I should add that my platelet count has always been low despite the vitamin K - sometimes lower than the lowest normal number, sometimes at the very bottom of normal, never more than a couple of points above that number. I bleed easily and profusely. Sometimes I wonder if the vitamin K is doing anything, but it's the only thing I can think of that might maybe possibly somehow keep my calcified arteries from getting moreso. My cardiologist told me that with so much calcium in my arteries, it's actually helping the artery walls stay intact.
Hey kapakahi!
Have you ever heard of The Tact Study?
drmagaziner.com/chelation-t...
I believe that the original Tact Study used 40 chelation infusions per subject. An 18% reduction didn't quite make the level for chelation to be accepted as a therapy, however, I imagine that being in the 18% that avoid future cardiovascular events is much better than not having that edge.
I understand that suppositories are available for self chelation at home. I never used the suppositories. I has infusions. Chelation also removes necessary metals and minerals such as iron and potassium which is why the instructions are to "insert" it before bedtime. I imagine it is assumed that one will have breakfast to restore some of the necessary minerals needed. The infusions also contained quite a bit of vitamin C and B vitamins especially B12 to prevent fatigue. One shouldn't take a multi or whatever before using the suppositories as the chelation agent will be less effective at removing the metals and minerals--calcium--that is desired to be removed.
I have messaged with someone that had good results with the suppositories. Be aware that when chelation is infused there is a nurse and doctor present if you have an issue.
Doctor's Data in New jersey does heavy metals testing.
Chelation will also remove gadolinium used in MRI contrasts.
Currumpaw
thanks for this - I've heard of chelating for heavy metals but never for calcification in arteries (my carotid and a sub-clavical arteries are at least 50% blocked) - I've never had a heart attack (unless it's been a silent one) and I don't have diabetes (but I have pre-diabetes) - are the suppositories OTC? did the chelation infusions do you any good? had you had a heart attack or diabetes?
Hey kapakahi!
You can find them on line. Doctor's Data will do heavy metals testing if you wish.
I was exceptionally healthy. I had prostate cancer because an elderly doctor didn't follow guidelines. Doctors and radiologists have told me that.
I had chelation to reduce the heavy metals in my body. After 5 MRIs my gadolinium level was 23X the expected high to be found.
Currumpaw
The amounts of MK-4, MK-7 and K1 in Koncentrated K are 25 mg, 0.5 mg and 5 mg, respectively, which are significantly higher than the 1 mg, 0.1 and 1.5 mg in Super K. On a cost basis the former is much cheaper, but the dosages may be higher than necessary. Cheers, Phil
I take blood thinners, which have their own side effects. Vitamin K is not recommended if you're at risk for stroke or heart blockage.
I have been using it for a year. He has excellent videos on youtube.
I started k2 supplement after the last scan that showed calcium deposits in the arteries , in a kidney cyst and in the prostate gland. Research suggests it will help reverse this and help prevent further damage.
my prostate had/has so much calcium deposits that the radiologist had difficulties doing a doppler ultrasound because the ultrasound beams kept reflecting off the calcium...
Thank you for the reply. I did not know that calcium could accumulate in the prostate. Learn something every day. Cheers, Phil
Understood, thanks, Phil
K2 - Solvent For Protein Based Stains
Pre- and post-spotting agent for removal of blood and albuminous stains
The K2 is spot remover for spots of blood, albumen, food remains, sauces of meat and fish, milk, ice-cream, cream, beer, chocolate, cacao, perspiration, pigment dirt, urine and similar protein or mineral based substances.
Application
1. Apply just a few drops of the special solvent at the centre of the spot and gently work the liquid in to the area using the lid, or other tool
2. Let the chemical action work on for 20 seconds or so then rinse out.
3. Important: To avoid rings, ensure to flush the solvent out thoroughly with SOFTsolvent or the SOFTsoap.
Avoid contact with skin, eyes and stomach as the product is classified as an irritant.
K2 may damage acetate fabrics! Prior to spotting, we recommend to try the products on the seam.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Wednesday 02/05/2020 6:16 PM EST
Lol
STAMPEDE TRIAL K ARM METFORMIN PARTICIPANTS
"Gasoline" Source
