Pushing my youngest granddaughter across a couple of tiny hills today, I found myself really fighting for oxygen - not exactly breathless, more the feeling you get when you’re at a very high altitude and fighting for oxygen. You can feel the air going into your lungs, but somehow it just doesn’t have what you need.
An exercise physiologist specialising in PCa told me that this happens when muscles that have been weakened by ADT are being asked by the brain to deliver the same output as they used to be capable of - the only place for the muscle to go is for more oxygen.
All I know is that it’s far from pleasant. I don’t have a blocked head or any other problem, and I went to the gym this morning - this feeling is just plain crap...
Has anyone else had this “running out of oxygen” feeling, and maybe found a better explanation??
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As testosterone falls, so does the red blood cell count [RBC]. Those cells contain the hemoglobin that carry oxygen. With ADT, anemia can occur. Don't take iron. It's unlikely that you are deficient. Adding iron would be a big mistake.
"Anemia (also spelled anaemia) is a decrease in the total amount of red blood cells (RBCs) or hemoglobin in the blood, or a lowered ability of the blood to carry oxygen. When anemia comes on slowly, the symptoms are often vague and may include feeling tired, weakness, shortness of breath or a poor ability to exercise." [1]
Even without ADT: "The aging male with reduced testosterone availability may present with a wide variety of symptoms which in addition to frailty and weakness include: fatigue, decreased energy, decreased motivation, cognitive impairment, decreased self-confidence, depression, irritability, osteoporotic pain and the lethargy of anemia." [2]
I was anemic likely due to ADT as well as the effect that chemo and radiation had on my bone marrow. After getting a colonoscopy to rule out any internal bleeding issues I was put on a regimen of iron supplements - (Ferro-Sequels). After a few months anemia is gone bloodwork is back to normal and I’ve noticed my endurance during daily exercise has improved.
My one doc wants me to a colonscopy because of this low reading...another Doctor says no. Its a good idea to have two doctors one checking the other.
He doesnt feel my reading is suggestive of blood loss through the colon and is probably normal. It been low for 15 years. So we are going to do this Colongard thing and see what we find out. I dont have fatigue or weird symptoms.
The other first doctor doesnt want to take any chances. PS my wife is also anemic like me.
I was on BAT for a while, and went though cycles of very high to pretty low testosterone. I maintained 3x weekly workouts throughout.
I noticed that when T was low, two things happened.
1) My muscles got weaker - a lot weaker. My max bench press weight would drop 20%, the number of pushups by 30%.
2) Relatively small decreases in Red Blood Cell Count (RBC) and hematocrit translated into huge changes in my aerobic capacity. I'd be gasping for air in the gym during a low-T phase, where 2 weeks earlier I was running through the sequences and demanding more weight.
As Patrick quoted:
weakness - check
fatigue - check
decreased energy - check
decreased motivation - double check. I had no motivation at all.
cognitive impairment - triple check, I lost 80 IQ points
decreased self-confidence - check
depression - check
irritability - not so much, but I was not in a good mood
osteoporotic pain - yep, hip and back pain that would vanish when T went back up
lethargy of anemia - combined with the lack of motivation, lethargy was extreme
My MO discussed erythropoietin (EPO) with me - it is a drug that increases RBC, hematocrit, and significantly increases aerobic capacity, especially endurance. We set a trigger level for hemotocrit; I was just above it when we started BAT and the levels when back to normal.
Lance Armstrong is my hero - he took all this stuff and it WORKED. He didn't get more cancers, didn't die of a heart attack, didn't go crazy, no body parts fell off. He was the guinea pig, and now we can use that knowledge.
Check your blood work - if hemoglobin is very low, you may need a red blood cell stimulant (erythropoietin). The best way to increase blood oxygenation is vigorous cardio exercise (with permission from your doctor). It is best to include some sprinting.
Now that sounds like a very American solution!! I have this vision of me wandering through Yellowstone, trailing empty O2 cans!
I appreciate the advice, I really do, but I have to find another way to fix this thing... Before starting ADT in Jan 19 I was in pretty good shape, I reckon I just need to work harder in the gym, and get my RBC and iron checked. Hopefully there’s an answer in there somewhere....
Try looking into Buteyko breathing. It increases oxygenation. I get my instruction from the Advanced Buteyko Institute and use their very nice app for 3X/Day training. I started it because I didn’t have access to hyperbaric chambers or ozone therapy. I find that a side benefit, is that it is a very good meditation.
Yeah, fair enough. Well, I’m doing this to try and kill the last bloody PCa cells that might be left after the SRT, so I guess hard evidence that the Zoladex plus Zytiga really drain the T down is kind of good news... and at least you and others have been very encouraging that the O2 will come back when the T finally returns... I guess it’s just a case of who gives in first - me or the dregs of the PCa... I wouldn’t be betting on that little bastard being around too much longer....
I had some of this during chemo a few months back. Now that it's over and I'm on lupron and abiraterone, my running is rapidly getting better. I may even end up almost as fast as I was before cancer (never was very fast, but still).
It seems that whatever effect ADT has is being offset by training and weighing 10+ lbs less.
Yeah, I suspect it works well for those that actually do it... I moved back to Australia 8 years ago, but it was only after seeing that 4 months of ADT had already knocked some bone density off me that I finally unpacked the rather lovely Vectra 1650 weight station I shouted myself for my 5oth birthday whilst living in the UK.... that's a not so subtle way of saying that I have been a lazy bugger who needs to pull his finger out.... and having now started to do so, it has come as a bity of shock to find that it isn't just my bones and weight that the ADT has been screwing with, but also my oxygen... however, I can't let you yanks get one over on me so I've just got to keep on keeping on... sigh....
Yep, I’m sucking wind playing competitive tennis and running after two months on ADT. It’s like the top gear isn’t there and one cylinder isn’t firing. I’m coping, but it requires more mental effort to push through whereas before it came naturally. My RBC’s and platelets are down as well.
My explanation is simpler. Maybe you've let yourself become unfit.
I've had ADT since 2010, and cycled about 100,000km in that time and often over hills and faster than men who have full testosterone level. I showed to so many ppl that I could be quite athletic with a handicap of Pca, and despite me not having genes of a winning athlete, but those of a plodder, like most of us.
I have had hypotension, but not much now, was more when I was fit, with resting HR only 45 for many years. Once I got going on the bike the HR went up OK and recovered well when I stopped. Docs are not worried about my heart.
Some gentle exercise is needed if you can and really want to do it. Hills make it more difficult. Get weight down, have heart checked out because you might have a heart problem. As I aged, I have had to take much more notice of the condition I am in and try doing things to improve and maintain that condition.
I have a bad hip at present, keeping me off my bicycle, so I'm getting it all checked out to see what fixes might be possible.
VERY clear that many people respond differently to ADT... We might also tend to blame feelings we might have anyway ON the ADT... one thing IS certain... no one feels better on ADT than off : ) ..... there are days that I wish I had never read any of these posts on ADT as I have yet to start and it will be hard to not attribute any ill feeling I have TO the ADT.
Or, for my part, having read the side effects of ADT and seeing firsthand the dismissive attitudes of the RO and the MO about these side effects, I am very glad that I have remained adamant about not submitting to ADT simply because of its touted "significant advantages." Vague. Growing boobs and running out of air are not vague. But then my disease -- so far -- is both new and contained. And I am 75, not 55. All these factor in.
Sometimes it's a matter of individual circumstances perspective.
I've been on ADT for 5 1/2 years after starting with a NM Bone Scan that lighted up like a Christmas Tree. Yes, I've had several of the usual side effects of ADT, but they have been far more tolerable compared to the excruciating pain I had at original diagnosis due to the bone mets in my lower spine. Less than a month on Lupron melted all that pain away. In just a few months my PSA dropped from the thousands down to 1.0. It's likely I would not be here today without ADT, and subsequent treatments.
At 63 I had knew exactly what side effects I'd get before ADT, and they all happened, Within a few months of ADT I began getting hot flushes. OK, take a jumper off, continue doing whatever, then wait to cool, put jumper back on, maybe 2 times a day in winter, and in summer in work shed I'd do the same with a T shirt. Sex ability was reduced, but not exterminated, so I could please someone if needed, and half please myself. So what. I have no partner, hadn't had good sex for 20 years previously, and I didn't miss jerking off. I cycled a lot, and became about 4kph slower average speed so I moved from the "fast group" I was in who averaged 28kph over say 100km on a Sunday to a medium group who did 80km at about 25kph. Man boobs? Nah, definitely not. I had them in early 2006 when I was 102Kg, that was a pure over weight thing, and by late 2006 when I re-started cycling 200km+ a week weight with boobs went away and I got back to my racing weight of my early 40s. ADT might cause men to get man boobs but usually its laziness and eating too much. A long time ago they used to treat Pca with oestrogen, a female homone, and this did horrible things to men, including have then grow boobs. Not any more. I had a pause in ADT at end of what was supposed to be a treatment package that would work, even cure me said one idiot doc. 2 years ADT, with 70Grey EBRT after first 6mths on ADT.
It did almost nothing except tickle my cancer pink because in 6 months Psa lept from 0.08 t0 8.8, and my urologist grudgingly accepted that he had not succeeded and I asked in a letter that I be transferred to oncologist to see me out and at that time I knew that oncologists preside over a pile of ppl who just won't make it for very long.
But in the 6 month ADT pause, testosterone came back after 3 months, and I had this magical 3 months where my bike speed went back to "normal" and I did a few big long fast rides with my old cycle group, all mainly 8 years younger than me, none were older.
Then I re-began ADT because there really was no alternative. Psa was rapidly rising, and there could not be surgery, and chemo was then seen as likely to fail, and its something you try after trying whatever hormonal manipulation is possible. I had 3 more years of Testosterone suppression, and by then the combined effects of EBRT and prolonged ADT caused complete sex ability to be exterminated, but I was 65, and the idea of finding a partner who "wanted to be close" as older women say was quite absurd, because most ladies I met has paused from men for previous 20 years, and had become allergic to all things masculine, especially to independent men like myself, who had a past of loving and liking all women but who never needed one; I did all my own housework, and never needed the female touch. Nice when its there, but nobody really could practice free love, having a partner always made my life more expensive. I didn't mind that when I did have a nice partner, but right now at 72, I feel that I will never ever be touched nicely by any female ever again - they all make sure they keep their distance.
But I digress.
After 65, the Rodger completely feeling free, numb, and fragile, with head skin wanting to part from the shaft, and sponge tissue became unable to expand with blood, due to fibroids forming so I read, and yet I was still getting erections but Rodger had 90 degree bend down toward Mutha Earth, and it became a repulsive sex device, stuffed, buggered, but useful as a drain pipe. Was that depressing or horrible? well no, because I'd found that riding bicycle around my beautiful city and region for 2 hours was a darn sight more pleasurable that trying to ride a shiela for 2 hours, and then finding that no matter how expertly I did all that, it didn't lead to me being valued any better by the shiela. So losing sex ability and changing my sex from Man to an It, or DM, desexed male, just did not have any mental bad effect. I've kept an eye out for a lady who is sexually equal to me, she's has so much surgery or other treatment that being sexual is impossible, but usually they are psychologically ruined by this all on top of the effects of their menopause, and maybe the bitterness left over from a divorce. So, No more partners for me. I also began taking enzalutamide after No 3 Lu177, and that supercharges effect of Lu177, in theory at least, but its side effects so far seem to be quite negligible, and I am able to do many things I've always done which challenge my 72 yo brain.
The cycling has stopped, maybe if I fix the hip I can do more. But at least the cycling plus good diet regularly kept my heart, lungs, arteries and mind in far better shape than many others my age.
I gotta go to lunch, so all the best, Pca is a challenge, so bye for now,
My 70y old brain resonated with your experiences and I laughed, probably more than I should have, at the jumper off/on antics which are so real.
I was Dx PC T3bN0M0 in 2010. RP, adjuvant RT, combADT, arbiraterone and It is 1y after my 4th Lu177. Contemplating docetaxel for the first time and so it goes on....
I agree on the importance of exercise; I try and shear a handful of sheep each morning before breakfast. Rob
Holding back on more Lu177 but 4x probably delayed progression for 1-2y. Mostly low avidity PSMA lesions (oligomets) now. Instead of tinkering with sheep I might have a swig at some sheep drench going by the last comments on this site!
Why not shoot up with sheep dip? How about Round Up, works on weeds that keep coming back, like Pca
But I reckon the thing to do is get a DNA sample of Germaine Greer's bone marrow, and have it cloned in a lab, and then have that injected into some white cells you donate, then have the altered cells re-injected and I reckon Pca being a masculine disease would have no chance whatsoever to withstand a darn good lecture from feminist white cells, and they'd cringe and beg forgiveness. But feminist white cells would then say "its no use cringing and begging you little male buggers, we have no sympathy, and then outcomes the killer blow with injected killer female proteins, "Gotcha". Side effects could be unpredictable, and your personality might change to grumpy old shiela. This might be quite OK, and go unnoticed by anyone if youse is already a grumpy old man. :-).
I was told by a research doctor at my No 3 Lu177 to be beware of the survivor Pca cells after Lu177 which have low PsMa avidity; these are the killers likely to get you unless you shut them down, ah, but what with?, and there lies the problem because there isn't much that might reliably work. The doc told me that maybe best thing was to have DNA sample taken and its sent to lab to see if its Brca2 positive, and my DNA probably is, because I had a sister with Oa, who died, and father who died of melanoma, and his mum died of Oa of Brca, but not sure, so long ago, but also my other sister got Bca, but she seemed to just get get it in time with double mastectomy and follow up chemo and HT. 8 years later she's alive and well at 75. I did not have brothers. But male cousin is 74, no Pca yet, Psa > 1.2, unlikely, so I doubt he got the gene that allows Pca to happen. So what I do from here could be quite experimental, no sure result, and cost a huge amount of $$$$.
I might also need to have Ra223 which operates to replace calcium uptake in bones, and at Pca bone mets there is some of that going on. o Ra223 is not a theranostic nuclide, does not need the Pca to have high PsMa avidity, and its used for other types of bone cancers.
For me, the bone mets are probably my biggest worry. Usually Lu177 wipes out the soft tissue mets in lymph nodes which have PsMa avidity. I could also try Cabazataxel, chemo with worse side effects than Docetaxel, but trials show Cabaz is only marginally better than Docet, which just increased my Psa from 12 to 50 after 5 doses.
I don't know when the fight will be over. I see my local onco next week to review progress while having Xtandi, which was supposed to supercharge the effect of 4th Lu177 about 5 weeks ago.
Sorry Charles.... I really wasn't thinking about situations like your own when I wrote that comment.... Clearly there ARE instances where being ON ADT is most superior to being off it.
Not a problem, Tommyj2. I "get it" when it comes to all the changes that can happen to a man's body and mindset when the treatment(s) take Testosterone levels way down to therapeutic levels for prostate cancer. When I was diagnosed 5 1/2 years ago at age 65 I was still a pretty capable guy, with a good sex life (even though we had transitioned-over to more of a "hands on" approach - Ha. Ha.). Lupron took a Testosterone level of 908 down to below 20. We are in our early 70s now, and my Lupron-for-life and the added Xtandi are still doing their best to turn me into a 205 pound Peter Pan, along with other side effects. After the initial fears and traumas, we still come back into our Present lives to make the best of what we can,... one hour, day, week, month, and year at a time.
As many have already commented it is highly likely your haematocrit has taken a dive due to your ADT. Typical to drop 15% or more when taking GnRH agonists for a moderate period or especially if on combined ADT. There are pros and cons to taking EPO and need to check out Fe levels prior to supplementation. See ref: Asian Journal of Andrology (2012) 14, 187–192. Aerobic exercise has helped me, when I get it together.
You’re probably half right about having let my fitness drop - it crept up on me kind of fast, but i’m Getting back on top of it now... I apparently developed some mild lung fibrosis over the last few years and have been having stress tests to baseline that so I can keep any eye on it... the nett is that my heart is fine and my lung capacity only down 10 - 15%, so there’s no reason not to go pretty hard at the training...
Keep it up Patrick, with those mongrel Liberals back in, we need at least one bloke in Canberra who’s still peddling...
For USA readers, some clarification about Oz politics is needed.
Liberals here have colour blue, and are like US Republicans and nearly all trace in being liberal vanished long ago in drift to far right to boom the economy, translate " rob the poor for rich to prosper" The Libs don't want a cent of their trillions of $$$ to subsidise cancer treatments for anyone.
Labor is about fairness, something all ppl have a frightful fear of. Labor is like US democrats but color is red on their made in china T-shirts. Chinese are not
Choo Zee, they do blue good price for blue T-shirts with Liberal on them.
We all age, as Time slowly or quickly dismantles us. Cancer speeds the process, unless we see it coming early when Psa < 2.5, and have the PG removed with only a tiny smell of Pca present. But for those who dither, and don't think it will happen then maybe they have to spend $200,000 in a losing battle over many years, and they are lucky if Medicare picks up 3/4 of the cost as has happened with me.
I got knees replaced in Feb 2017 when Psa went low for a few months. A brilliant re-birth followed, and I walked without pain within 12 weeks and I resumed cycling and in Spring 2013 I rode faster than most others in my former cycle group who wondered "how come?.."
But then side effect of Zytiga kicked in when Psa went up, and I had to ride early am all summer because the heat made bar heart rate troubles happen. Zytiga affects adrenal gland and HR, and 3 of 10 listed side effects were about heart trubbels. I really didn't need to try to keep up with guys 10 years younger with a full bottle of testosterone and not ever having cancer treatments so I rode happily alone after early 2018.
Instead of cycling now because of a bad hip, I solder audio gear for selected old customers who I remain friends with. So I am soldering on.
The Polly Tishans are a terrible lot, but I have correct Bullshyte Deflection Panels in place, and the prevailing wind from Parliament House in our lovely capitol does not choke me with thick bad brown airs, full of acrimony, lies, confabulations, deceits, conceits, stubbornness, greedy plans, mean nasty policies, character assassinations, etc, etc, etc.
In 2007, I could get from my home in Watson to a café in Tuggeranong in maybe 55minutes on a good day, average 28kph, a bit slower than at 40 when I did 30kph everywhere I rode, except for the Brindabella mountains which had to truly brutish hills. But last good time was 24kph in last January.
Its not the speed that matters. And if I get better, I'll go back to bike, and do more, and if I did 20kph its just fine because its appropriate exercise for an old man enjoying some of the last years of his life. I'm cautious, and balance and awareness is fine. I've cycled 240,000km total in my life so far and despite 3 falls at speed over 25kph in all time, I never broke a bone, and was able to ride 25km to get home to my bed, and after 3 days rest I was back on bike again.
Meanwhile I solder.
Keep shed tidy, one owch after the other owch. OK, it'll do.
Must now sit in sunshine for awhile. It was about -4C Last Knight.
How in the WORLD do you know the number of miles you cycled in a lifetime of cycling : )....... I couldn't tell you how many I cycled in the past year. Sorry the ADT is having such deleterious effects.... particularly troubling to those who were used to using their bodies and pushing to higher levels of fitness.
On my bicycle I have an electronic cyclometer made by Cateye.
This measures all the miles or kilometres you ride, plus gives you average speed, fastest speed, time for each ride excluding stops at traffic lights and cafes. Every serious cyclist has one of these although some now have brackets on the handle bars to to mount a smart phone to record the elevation on hills, heart rate, power in Watts produced and the map of where you are. plus allow the rider to answer phone calls et all.
In 1986, I got most of my house load paid off and could afford to ease back on the work and enjoy life because I didn't have a wife and children to drain my meagre earnings and finances. Building work does keep a man healthy, more or less, but there's almost no aerobic effort involved, and I knew many fat and unhealthy builders. I wanted to do something strenuous and I got on a bike I'd bought in 1982, and got serious, and soon I riding 35km around a lake here, or sometimes further and then I overtaking most others and I met some blokes from the local cycle club who invited me to join. So then I began a 6 year time when I competed as a "veteran" ie, man over 35, and I found this mob to be the sanest and helthiest I ever met, with nearly all being plain nice ppl but all not fat, and my body agreed with my mind that I'd found a way to avoid the early rot of middle age. 35km rides soon turned into 100km rides, and after a few months I got faster, moved up from D grade and then got a better bike, and by 1988 I was using a bike that was the same and anything used in Tour De France, and I won races in B grade, and some weeks I cycled 600km. My body agreed with all this and doing building work on houses for ppl. The cyclometer recorded all the km I did.
Biggest rides were in 1990s when I rode to Sydney and back a couple of times, each way was 300km, in a day.
But I didn't know I had a weak link in form of bad knees which I inherited from my dear mum, who could never have done anything athletic. Dad was a lot better, and set a record in NSW schoolboy running for the Mile in about 1930. He once rode from Sydney to Cairns for a holiday in about 1933. He rowed well at his school.
So there was some genes I got from him. I never got the speed gene, and tended to have the GFE gene, ie, the 'get fat easily' gene, like most ppl on Earth.
So, in 1992, the weak came to affect me in form of sore knees and I'd have pain after a long ride, so I quit cycling. I would have cycled at least 200km a week 52 weeks a year though, don't ask me to haul out my diary to prove it where I listed all rides and races, how I'd done, who beat met, why, and details of 50 reasons why I didn't get laid as often as I would have liked. Regardless of what happened, I was full of life.
In about 1993, I did a repair job on a two storey house because the tiles had problems with cementing of gables and valley gutters and that meant up and down a ladder for 3 weeks carrying buckets of cement, and walking in non flat surfaces, and its other wise known as hard work. Well, I got that all finished, and knees just got chronically sore and docs said I was basically stuffed and too young for a pair of knee joints. I went on the dole, and the bike gathered dust. I learnt a new trade of electronics and repaired and built gear for ppl for next 18 years.
But in 2005 I had an arthroscopy to both knees to trim cartilages and next day the pain was gone, and no more Celebrex or Vioox needed.
But my weight had crept up, and by 2006 I was 102Kg, 20kg more than my racing weight in 1992. I wondered if I could ride again so I pulled the bike off the hooks on the wall, replaced the tubes in tyres, and cleaned it up and went for a ride. That was June 2006, freezing cold like now.
I felt fine, not pains after, so I did more and more and by December 2006 I'd lost 19kg, was back to 83Kg, regained muscle and was getting fast again. No aches or pains, and I did at least 100km on a Sunday and 100km on a Wednesday leaving 5 days to work on the electronics, which was dead easy compared to building work.
Well before long I joined ACT Pedal Power and found myself in their "fast group" and able to do 150km Sunday rides and keep up with most. But not all, because some were just naturally faster; one was the veteran champion time trialist in ACT, and I could not even keep up when I rode behind him going down hill at maybe 65kph. I had no desire to race because I felt I'd been there, done that, but the "social rides" were at least a tiny bit social to make up my horrible social life at that time. I had a cyclometer for all the rides I did after 2006, and some years I managed 12,000km. Getting Pca and a kidney ureter problem caused minor reduction of the time I spent on the bike, and these ailments caused me to lose the speed I had so I rode for awhile with slower groups where there were sometimes women riding, a small minority who could never ever keep up with me. Most were married, gay, or had such strange personality traits that any social interaction was impossible. Usually a Sunday ride included a café stop, and it was nice to have a few female faces around the table. I left it at that. I was far to old for any of them.
So I don't miss the cycle groups. Most was done alone. My hip might improve with a long rest or some surgery, yet to be decided on soon when I see a hip & knee doc next week. If cartilage is worn so thin that I have bone on bone in places, I'll get on waiting list for a new hip joint. I had both knees done in Feb 2017, was back riding in cycle group for a few months later that year while on Zytiga. I was faster than before the joints went in. But these last few years I've done less km. But in 3 weeks before No 3 Lu177 this year in Feb I did 960km, average 23kph, not too bad, felt 25, and then the hip trouble started. OK, time to ease off, and go back to being sedentary - but without eating badly and getting fat.
So I eat less. and weight is 83Kg, waist less than 100cm, and resting HR is up from the steady 45 it was 2 years ago to about 50.
So there's my life story with bicycles, and how I easily managed to keep records of what I did.
Some blokes here often those over 60 like to tell me they cycled 500,000km or more, but I knew these blokes when I competed with them years ago and they often didn't train as long and as far as I did, so they have exaggerated the distance they went. But It seems I've done a total of 19 years when I was cycling regularly, and did at least 200,000km.
Nice sunshine here, cold, no wind, and lunch soon at café. Got work to draw an amplifier schematic for a guy because he'll need this info if he gets his amp serviced after I die soon some time.
Had some acupuncture yesterday to find more pressure points for pain relief for my hip. I'd already found 3, and the guy found more, so I can minimize or avoid pain killers which tend to dull the mind and cause unwanted side effects. Pain is slight at night, wakes me sometimes, and something has to be done if it can be. But Pca treatment effects also wake me 4 times a night for a pee. That's been going on since 2010. Ya just afta get used to most things.
Well that was the most comprehensive post I've received in a long time Patrick : ) you really have been around the block a few times.... Sounds like you were quite the serious cyclist and I am so sorry that this fricken disease has put a crimp in things ( to put it mildly)...... PCA certainly can't be said to not to be an equal opportunity affliction..... on the plus side It appears that your years of activity have helped you weather the ADT a bit better?? BTW.... I DO have a cateye... just don't use it to it's fullest advantage. Have a brother that is quite serious in his cycling but I can't even dream of keeping up with him ( knees bad as well)... but since I can't walk or run any distance biking serves to keep me a bit aerobically fit to the degree I can push myself out the door.... Best to you.
I regarded the bicycle as a savior to my obvious premature un-health problems that occurred after about 50. I had a bad ankle from motorbike prang at 19, so while many ran around I walked, but not bad, because I thought while I walked, while the others didn't, and they tripped over so many things in life
Anyway, the cycle racing stint for 6 years was a splendid challenge I enjoyed, and I both enjoyed and hated the steep hills but then comes the descent, and there's nothing quite so dangerous and thrilling as a downhill on a hard tar road at 80kph+.
But later, after my 12 year break from the bike, I didn't worry about the speed on hills because I merely had to be able to get over them without dying, and at 60+ I needed much lower gear ratios than I used at 40+ which of course were lower than the guys of 25+.
On many ride at over 60, you enjoy the quiet challenge as you wind around the uphill bends with heart pumping, but not exploding, stop awhile at the top to take in the view, maybe do some yoga, contemplate existence is easier when you get to the top and look down at your tiny city spread out below, a city of ants going hither and thither about with vigour, and it all looks so insignificant compared to the surrounding countryside with its grazing fields and forests stretching far away.
"What's it all about, this thing called life? Why am I here? For this?" I'd ask, and clear answers never came. But I knew what I loved when I descended to rejoin my city, there were a few likable ppl, at times some good women while they stayed good, at least for awhile, and some good work that was rewarding, and no blood in the streets due to political or religious disagreements, and the doctors helped a lot, so I figured I was in a good place at a good time to be human even if I didn't really know why existence existed, and couldn't know, because all those experts who said they knew all seemed to argue so much that the meaning of life for them at least remained stubbornly obscure. Life is just here, fragile, could cease any time. So I invite you to contemplate its wonderment and revel in just being, want not too much of anyone, anything, or of yourself. Work while you can to be useful and you may be happy. We cannot have everything that can be had. and if we did, what could be had will enslave you, send you mad perhaps, make you unhappy. We sure cannot have yesterday, and that makes us anxious, so find something outside yourself to occupy your mind. I would not enjoy a Maserati. I'd prefer a bicycle. I don't need a palace, humble cottage will do, and I'm happy in a good local cafe, I see no more value in dining at the Ritz. Its sad that so many don't share my simple ideas, and that no woman could tolerate me, oh so different to 25, when those same ladies had me poke them lovingly at every good moment of the day. Sad that so many changed to loathe men. Its what I see around me though. How did so much unhappiness happen? so much aloneness while having plenty, or too much stuff?
I can't change the world though, it is just what we have made it.
I'll soon unlive, and today's young will make it change, maybe for the better in some ways and maybe for the worse, and I won't have a hand in any of it. Getting old means giving away any control we might have to destiny, and being slowly dismantled by time, and no use protesting, and its too late to have it all turn out better by a re-run. So be peaceful, its Sunday, not necessarily a Lord's day, but doing some time just contemplating today is not a bad idea IMHO.
Yesterday I went to Uniting church where 20 young musicians played to a crowd of maybe 100 ppl who mostly would understand me because they all have grey hair. The music was some of Mozart's favourites and a group of tangos to show how it evolved. I picked up a Bible to read because I do like reading with music, and I randomly opened the page and the story of Jezzabel sprang forth, and how God reacted. Ah, what a horrid God I thought. I'd known a few Jezzabels in my time, made them smile a lot for as long as they could take before their inevitable urge for another man set in. I was never to treat them as God would. I found another book of psalms, and again, all full of God, prostrating oneself to his glory, and this al seemed quite neurotic and sure, we all gotta be good ppl, but I could see that many could hold their common imagination of God to be so very true, this Bloke up in the sky someplace, likely to smote us if we err, and cure our troubles if we are good, and all we do is subject to what God does. Ah, such poetic craziness I thought. But the power of this benign cultured superstition and old tradition brought the church into existence, at least a very good place for music. Despite 100 souls being there to listen to Mozart, there was not the slightest feeling of being with others because nobody socialised, we were all islands to each other. I did speak to a couple on way in waiting, and to a very old lady on the way out, but each of us soon vanished to aloneness very soon.
So its pretty easy to see why I'd prefer to cycle 100km on a Sunday instead of going into any church. Nature is my god, and luckily its devoid of any human qualities. Saturday for music is just fine.
I am , yet, a long way from finding peace with my position in life.... I have not found adequate replacements for the activities in which I used to engage ( and which, more importantly kept my mind from dwelling on the less than pleasant aspects of life)... I DO share in common with you that few ladies can tolerate me in large doses ( or I them for that matter.... I do fine with simple things... most of them do not ..particularly as they get older ( a good thing in general for as their attitudes harden ....their looks diminish making them unattractive to me anyway : ) Living alone with few friends and family has me worried about what I am going to do when I reach a point where I can not easily care for myself ( one of the main reasons I don't just let this disease claim me.... I don't see myself thriving in a nursing facility...death just comes too slowly.... So for the next few years it's find things to occupy me and make the best of a bad situation..... Not waking up one morning would suit me just fine but I don't think that I can count on that.... so it's off to the gym....
Yes when playing golf walking up hills I’m out of breath even though I work out daily .and this heat makes golf impossible for me.
How long were you on ADT?
My iron got so low I needed iron infusions. Now I take iron and calcium plus other oncologist recommended pills to help fight the Lupron side effects. Good times.
I used to train pro Moto cross guys...we used expand a lung...they are cheap...I use one now...Just got back from California and was on steep 450 ft trails at Point Magu. Did fine...just stay after it...fight the monster...!! I have lost a little strength but am slowly gaining some of it back...Motivation is a little tougher for all of us but when you are done you feel better...good luck ...Blue Skies....Grounded Sky King Hit this bitch on four fronts....Mentally....get the head right,2 exercise cardio and resistance ,3 nutrition , and our treatments.....oh yes and have fun....pump yourself up this is the Super Bowl for us......do not feel guilty if you indulge yourself ,,reward is fine...hit it harder the next day....
Curious why you resumed ADT if you were undetectable. I started my ADT vacation in March and wondering what’s next. I see the MO in a couple weeks so expect some more clarity in that regard. Thanks.
Thank you. Thoughtful, thorough, and comprehensive as always. I know there are many questions and discussions about ADT vacations (good or bad, when and how long, etc.?)on this site and how and when to determine if ADT should be started again (scans, PSA, other markers?)
I will see my MO in a couple weeks and intend to put him in a headlock until he gives me a satisfactory answer to some of these questions. Though seriously, I doubt he can shed any new light on this that hasn’t already been discussed by others on this site. At least I will know what the standard protocol is for DFCI
If you are on ADT you are probably slightly anemic.Your HG is most likely a little low. HG is responsible for carrying oxygen to your muscles via your blood. I havent found a way to offset this condition. Its not really a condition you would treat on ADT or not.
Patrick below explains it nicely.I think that there is a way around it using herbals or supplements, perhaps even exercise.
OK, that's it... gentlemen, we need to draw a line under this topic, I think !!!
Whoa!! I admit that like to toss the odd Australian reference in, but how did I end up tempting Patrick into giving an expose on the Australian political scene??? I might say that we get US politics (and many other things besides - can some of you yanks PLEASE do something about Kim Kardashian and her misery guts-looking mate Kanye... and that feud between Blac Chyna and Nicki Minaj, I mean really, pls guys, we can only take so much of that...) in our media 24/7 down here, so I don't see that Patrick's meandering will do you lot any real harm, but things are getting a bit out of hand... to slightly misquote a favourite Thomas Jefferson line from Hamilton, "Can we get back to prostate cancer, pls!"
In all seriousness, I appreciate very much the concern that has come through in many of your replies. When I had a PSMA PET scan at Petr Mac in Dec 18 they did a double take on a dark thing in my lungs which I have been chasing down ever since, culminating in a heart/lung function test a couple of weeks ago and having a couple of hundred ml of saline rinsed through my lungs last week to see what was floating around down there... so I am aware that my heart is pretty much OK, and that while my lung capacity is down 10 - 15% due to fibrosis (which I am hoping is long term scarring rather than anything on the move), most of my recent problems are indeed ADT-related.
It has been really helpful to hear about the impact of ADT on RBC, which I have never heard of before.... and when I see the MO in ten days (with a fresh set of bloods), I'll be sure to bring it up.
As I said somewhere back in this thread, my ADT is self-imposed, in an effort to give this MFing PCA a run for its money - if it all gets too hard, I can stop, without immediate drastic consequences, and I am acutely aware that many of you are not in that position. I find it truly humbling that you have all taken time to reach out, many from much darker places, to assist me - perhaps it's just my ADT-inspired softer side speaking, but I do find that spirit of camaraderie very inspiring...
So... Patrick, switch the lights out in Canberra for us mate, before you leave... and to the rest of you, thanks so much for your help and suggestions....
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Bone fracture when on ADT
Brain Fog and ADT
ADT and mental issues
bleeding after hyperbaric oxygen therapy
