Medical MJ? My doc laughed,... and l... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Medical MJ? My doc laughed,... and laughed, and giggled...

Beermaker
Beermaker

As my wife and I were leaving the exam room, I mentioned to my PCa Urologist that I was now using MMJ (medical marijuana). He chuckled and asked if there was a dispensary nearby. There is. He asked for more information about getting patients approved for it. We gave it to him, along with a card from the dispensary. He started laughing, saying he was going to be the MMJ advocate for the whole clinic. We left the office, and he told his 2 nurses he was going to be that, and showed them the card. And he laughed more. And more. Who says MMJ can't be fun? And yes, it works for me with my pain and my insomnia. It really helps.

48 Replies

I would be wary of cannabis.

Prostate cancer cells have extra cannabinoid receptors compared to normal prostate cells.

Dr. Myers, based on his clinical observations, believes that cannabinoids enhance the growth of prostate cancer cells.

I would save the cannabis for pain relief in the final stages of your disease.

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to cesanon

Don't know about cancer cells but heavy cannabis users (males anyway) can develop gynecomastia, something men on ADT are too often familiar with. So, all things in moderation.

geo3
geo3 in reply to WSOPeddie

From NIH, but IMHO, 11 or 22 is not a stat significant study:

Eleven patients diagnosed with idiopathic gynecomastia requiring mammoplasty were compared with matched controls to determine if there was an association between cannabis use and gynecomastia. Patients with gynecomastia were not significantly different from controls regarding their history of cannabis use. For those who admitted using cannabis, patients had a higher frequency but a shorter median duration of use than controls; differences were not statistically significant.

Our epidemiologic evidence does not support the previously reported relationship between chronic cannabis use and gynecomastia.

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to geo3

After developing ADT related gynecomastia I was sent for a mammogram (wasn't that fun). Their intake form asked about cannabis use. When I asked a nurse there if all the men they saw there had prostate cancer her answer was "no, many of the younger guys are heavy cannabis users". So who is the likely authority here -- a researcher in his ivory tower, or nurses who see patients coming through on a regular basis? Why would they ask about cannabis use if it wasn't relevant?

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to WSOPeddie

BTW, my urologist didn't hesitate to refer me for a mammogram but didn't do a damned thing to prevent the development of gynecomastia. One of my pet peeves. There are preventive measures like radiation or some meds.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to WSOPeddie

But how many of the younger guys were NOT cannabis users? That's improtant to know too. Correlation is not causation. That's why we need well designed studies.

geo3
geo3 in reply to WSOPeddie

Besides her selective memory, I agree with Gregg:

'Correlation is not causation. That's why we need well designed studies.'

Hope they are asking in order to study the question. If already knew, they wouldn't have to ask.

rocket09
rocket09 in reply to WSOPeddie

That's a big joke and not true.

geo3
geo3 in reply to cesanon

Who is this Dr Myers?

Sorry, but 'clinical observations' is hearsay, not a clinical trial.

Where is 'evidence based medicine' when we need it?

cesanon
cesanon in reply to geo3

Dr. Charles Myers. Aka Snuffy Myers.

Most support group leaders know who he is.

Just retired, but limited his practice to prostate cancer. His protocols were usually about 5 years ahead of the major medical centers.

Sorry, no trials. Call your congressperson for that. This was his strong suspicion based on clinical observation and self reporting by patients.

Oh, and knowledge about the extra cannabinoid receptors.

In humans the cannabinoid system either dampens or accelerates messenger feedback systems. So it isn't a big jump to assume it is doing one or the other with those extra prostate cancer receptors.

geo3
geo3 in reply to cesanon

Thanks for the ref to Dr. Charles Myers. He seems to be a real pioneer.

Could not find his link of Pca to CBD usage. Perhaps the link is to THC?

BTW, many 'small jumps' are later unfounded by evidence. Amazing to see how much is counter intuitive.

(For an example, look at the 30 years of scathing criticism by the profession, before it was finally accepted that ulcers are caused by an infection, not 'stress'.)

cesanon
cesanon in reply to geo3

This was something Myers told me when I asked him if there was any research, pro or con, on cannabis and prostate cancer.

He thought it would improve the health and growth of the prostate cancer cells.

That it would be good for the wrong type of cells.

Go do what you want with your body, but there is good reason to believe cannabinoids will affect prostate cancer cannabinoid receptors. Until you know what that effect is, it is irrationally risky behavior for anyone with prostate cancer to self medicate with cannabis.

Are you saying otherwise?

geo3
geo3 in reply to cesanon

Some of my friends with pain or nausea from other Ca only get relief from MMJ.

So I see it as real relief vs theory of a problem. If PSA goes up alarmingly, then you can quit the pot.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to geo3

There appears to be a lot of evidence supporting cannabinoid pain relief. Apparently, it may be more effective than opioids.

What would be more logical to me, is to use it after my prostate cancer goes aggressive. At that point, it makes no difference.

Using it before it goes aggressive for light aches & pain... I just don't get it.

When aggressive prostate cancer goes for your bones, all other types of pain constitute "light aches & pain". That is when you consider refraining from taking food and water.

That is when I will consider dosing myself up with cannabinoids. In fact, that is my personal plan. So I am not opposed to using cannabinoids. I just think if you have prostate cancer you need to be more strategic about it. That's all.

gregg57
gregg57 in reply to geo3

I've used cannabis with good results. People seem to lose perspective when it comes to "harms" caused by treatment. After injecting pure cytotoxic poison directly into my veins, the possible harms caused by cannabis are miniscule. Cannabis provides pain relief as well as help with appetite, nausea, sleep without serious side effects. There's low risk of overdose and addiction, unlike like opiates.

rocket09
rocket09 in reply to cesanon

I say it does not promote it . I did the Rick Simpson protocol and my psa went down.4 months of it. I was not cured but it did help. I did not like being so high all the time however.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to rocket09

"my psa went down.4 months of it."

Please explain in more detail? Thanks

rocket09
rocket09 in reply to cesanon

Sorry ,typo, my psa went down 2 points from 11 to 9

carlo8686
carlo8686 in reply to rocket09

Ever try it in a suppository? I’ve heard no high even with the high thc indica. Been to chicken to try it myself because to make the oil will smell up the neighborhood and it’s illegal here. What state are you in?

rocket09
rocket09 in reply to carlo8686

No I didn't . I am in Canada. The cannabis capitol of the world.

carlo8686
carlo8686 in reply to rocket09

Tommy Chong is king of the cannabis suppository and he went to or is from Canada. He’s all over utube talking about it. Surely he can’t be wrong.

rocket09
rocket09 in reply to carlo8686

Right on man!

good man...take as much cannabis as you can stand.....

I have a medical marijuana card. Tell me about your usage for insomnia. I took an indica strain supposedly good for that but the buzz left me wide awake. What am I doing wrong? BTW, I voted in favor of medical cannabis a number of years ago thinking that I might benefit some day. It passed by a very narrow margin.

wrando
wrando in reply to WSOPeddie

Take a little less until you get it right. It's worth it...relaxation and good sleep is invaluable.

geo3
geo3 in reply to WSOPeddie

For your body (stress, sleep, pain, etc.), seek out the CBDs, not THC content. IMHO, most disensaries are for getting high (on THC), so you have to be direct in your search for the CBD component of pot.

However, you do need some THC to assist the CBD. Start with, say 1 THC : 8 CBD, often labeled 8:1, so look carefully. Then go for less THC or for more -- as much THC as you can tolerate without the 'head' effect. CBD is for the 'body effect' you are seeking.

Good luck. It took me a few tries, and even help from my THC friends, to get the right blend.

PS. I did find vaping better for controlling dose. It takes effect in 5 - 10 min, so you can better gauge your dosage and modify in real time.

Appraiser
Appraiser in reply to WSOPeddie

Take the edibles. My MMJ Doctor prescribed the small 5mg medical chews an hour or 2 before bedtime rather than smoking. Edibles last longer in your system and I have yet to get high taking the 5mg

geo3
geo3 in reply to Appraiser

With 5 mg, do you get any effect? Is the 5mg THC? If so, seems more like the 'microdosing' that some are now advocating. Otherwise a 160 lb male might need 30mg or more.

Appraiser
Appraiser in reply to geo3

Each edible is 5mg of THC which produces a much better sleep than I’m use to getting

Beermaker
Beermaker in reply to Appraiser

No edibles here in FL. I would like very much for them to be made available. For now, I vape oils. I have a almost pure CBD oil I use about 1 hour before bed (based on the 2 recent books I have read) and also some 1:! THC to CBD I sometimes use to relax and ease pain before bed. (Not much pain, but enough to keep me awake.) I also use 9lb / 9 pound hammer strain to get to sleep. A true indica strain that works well for that. Produces lots of THC but in a calming way.

BrianF505
BrianF505 in reply to WSOPeddie

I’ve been using cannabis for sleep help for 9 years. Since chemo, I’ve found sleep at night difficult.

A bit of experiment is necessary. When I first started using it for sleep, I’d get a couple grams of several different flavors (strains) and test them out. I took notes on which worked/didn’t and then would buy a small supply of each of the flavors that worked.

I’d also shop the dispensaries. Quality of knowledge varies amongst them. As does quality of product (organic, testing no mold).

I also swapped out flavors every 3-4 weeks to keep up with the efficacy.

Use a vaporizer as opposed to a pipe/joint/bong. It helps with dosing and you reduce carbon and burning residual intake.

But the best and the most fun is getting a personal production license (if available in your state). One of my greatest joys is growing. Seeds can sometimes come from a dispensary, but are easily purchased online where you can research uses, and other characteristics of the plant. Gobs and gobs of online info on how to grow.

carlo8686
carlo8686 in reply to BrianF505

What state are you in.

BrianF505
BrianF505 in reply to carlo8686

New Mexico

Another post claimed a PSA reduction using CBD oil. It’s also promotes relaxation.

cesanon
cesanon in reply to Round_2

"Another post claimed a PSA reduction"

Sure, if it is on the internet, no need to seek out confirming evidence. It must be true, as long as it supports your pre-existing opinions founded on??????????

Round_2
Round_2 in reply to cesanon

True. But the post was from "More Bad News After Radical Prostatectomy" on this site. Might be ?? might not.

I am not a user (yet) but it seemes half the population was smoking pot when we were growing up. At this point whatever makes your life better seems to be the right path to take. I remember telling my father a try his 72nd birthday he should stop smoking. His response was at this point in his life did I think it would add a few hours to his life. And it was a small pleasure for him. He lived to 86.

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to Joeym1040

My chain-smoking uncle lived to his 90's. He also drank iced tea by the gallon year round. Was that the secret to longevity for a smoker?

Far out! Now I have the munchies. Must be from a contact high from all the posts on this topic. 😎

WSOPeddie
WSOPeddie in reply to Litlerny

Hope you are in a state that would allow use.

I’m using hemp oul an my psa number has dropped in half, and Im a distributor for Hempworx It’s US grown in Kentucky, for those in non mmj states an its 50 states legal (Disclaimer: your results may vary)

carlo8686
carlo8686 in reply to rfarley01

Are you in Kentucky or a distributor in another state. Sorry to be so nosy but I’m trying to find the best high thc content mmj for tumor reduction. I’m in Kansas so it’s illegal but retired so I can move.

Marijuana makes everything better

Ler me make 3 points about this thread since I started it:

1 - I was in no way making fun of my doctor. I find him to be very smart, and open to new therapies. He seems to keep up with new things. When I mentioned the MMJ after I had mention Ginseng (no problems there) he said I should go ahead and take whatever makes sense to me. He gave us a couple of more extreme examples, and said just do what makes sense to me and my wife.

2 - Based on my experience over the last year or so, I do find CBD help with sleep. I also find the 1:1 helps with sleep and relaxation. I do find some strains that help me relax before turning out the light. I am 72, and have smoked weed on and off since I was 20 or so. But I only use it before sleep. This is NOT what I would term recreational, more like an herb with benfits.

3 - I think my doctor's reaction, and the other reactions I have gotten from my other doctors, none of them are agains the use of MMJ if done properly. But it seems to point out that none of them have a real idea what it can be good for. and most just don't care. At least my Dr. knew that many opiod users that start using MMJ can cut back or stop using the strong, addictive, and dangerous drugs. Studies have shown this to be true. And I have heard about and read about the decreases and successes of MMJ.

If you don't want to do it, then don't. If you are afraid of it causing more harm than good, then don't use it. There is a lot of information out there on this, especially CBD. It seems to help some people. Whether you believe them or not is up to you. And posting your opinion is a good thing. Thanks to all who read this thread and commented to "liked" posts. I think it has been a good discussion.

Cheers and beers and puffs,

Marshall

carlo8686
carlo8686 in reply to Beermaker

I think everyone wants and hopes it works and not just for sleepand pain. I’m sure I’ll appreciate that more in the future. Tumor reduction has been seen. On this site you find people saying maybe it feeds PC. Also here say. They may be right. I hope they are wrong. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a natural product that replaced zytiga. Not quitting mine just yet but want to add mmj.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Beermaker

hi Beermaker -just found this thread of comments on medical marijuana and am looking for the terminology to use when approaching dispensaries to get the best sleep aid and quick pain reliever. My husband has his medical card but needs a nudge to make the most of it. His internist suggested looking into vaping or smoking version for quick relief as pills for pain can take a while to take the edge off. Also, gives the ability to quiet ones mind and physical self at bedtime to get some sleep. Are there certain strains/names that we can refer to? you mention 1:1 - not sure what that means. It's now legal in my state and we are trying to figure that out too. I do believe that there is some quality of life relief to be had from smoking/vaping/munching a bit of medical marijuana when all else is failing. Any suggestions are appreciated. I hope you are comfortable and enjoying life as much as you can!

Beermaker
Beermaker in reply to Hidden

There are many good strains to try. A good website to check out is Leafly.com. As far as what I use goes, the 1:1 is a combination of Remedy (for calming and sleep) and GSC (for some feeling of floating / being high.) It does help me sleep. I also use a CBD oil from my dispensary that just goes under the tongue. That calms me nicely. I also use the strain Acd which is essentially pure CBD and calms me. New products keep showing up but since I want sleep most of all, I have to be careful not to get a strain that will have me bouncing off the walls. Leafly is not the easiest site to negotiate, but has a lot of good information. Your local dispensary SHOULD have good information on all of this. Make some notes on questions to ask them. Make sure they sound reasonable.

I vape all my strains except the CBD oil. It is MUCH easier on the lungs and throat, faster to take effect, and requires less fuss and mess than smoking. I smoked for years in and after college (a long time ago) and prefer the vaping.

There are other forms of ingestion ranging from suppositories to creating your own "edibles" and everything in between. Talk with your husband about what he might like to try. Don't go overboard when you first purchase - this stuff is expensive, at least here in FL.

Depending on state laws, you may be able to get a dispensary to mail what you need to the house. I can do that here, but since it is 5 minutes from the house, I don't bother.

Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask question both here on the board, and at the dispensary. The best to you and your husband on the this ugly road we all share.

Marshall

P.s. It sounds like your internist is up to day. This is good news! But also check with your MO and Uro so that they know what is going on.

Hidden
Hidden

Thank you so much for the information! A good start and will follow advice on a list of questions to ask at the dispensary, starting small with purchase and keeping the other Docs in the loop. Pain management and sleep has become a major concern/issue with new symptoms and it seems that while there is a lot that can't be controlled, peace of mind knowing what is available and getting ahead of it in anticipation of what might work is key. Especially when you live in the polar vortex :-) thinking there are better ways to "chill out"!

Karen

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