CBD Oil

[Mkeman]

This oil is purported to help cancer patients. Has anyone out there tried it?

[jimbob99999]

I found the THC/CBD in a one to one ratio very helpful during chemo

[Mkeman]

Thanks. CBD oil now legal in WI....not sure about THC.

[cesanon]

Cbd may be good for other cancers, but prostate cancer cells have extra cannabinoid receptors, compared to normal cancer cells.

Dr. Myers believed that cbd accelerated the growth of prostate cancer cells.

His opinion came from casual observation of his patient population. Those who self medicated with cannabinoids seemed to generate more aggressive prostate cancer.

Maybe it's useful for pain once you go into hospice, but maybe you want to avoid until the.

[efsculpt in reply to cesanon]

This is a dilemma as I can only find studies that suggest CBD promotes apoptosis in prostate cancer cells. Yet, Dr. Meyers is experienced.

Craig

[Bluebird11 in reply to efsculpt]

I know one of Dr. Meyers patients who used cannabis. What isn't being said is nothing worked for that patient unfortunately, and they did do everything Dr. Meyers suggested including stopping the cannabis early on in his treatment.

This becomes a complex issue. In the state of California new regulations are in place and more coming to make sure that what is sold as good cannabis medicine is in fact clean, without pesticides or residual solvents, or harmful extraction methods. Patients could be taking cannabis not realizing it isn't what they think it is. These regulations are going to help.

I would read the research from the Netherlands efsculp, it may help you in making your decision.

[cesanon in reply to efsculpt]

Can you post links to the studies.

I would like to see what the differential effect was between regular prostate cells and the cancer prostate cells.

[efsculpt in reply to cesanon]

Dear Cesanon:

Here are some:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

projectcbd.org/cancer

cancer.gov/about-cancer/tre...

Good luck,

Craig

[cesanon in reply to efsculpt]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

I don't see to see anything about control groups or the testing of various concentrations in the one relevant study I was able to find that they cite: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/157...

projectcbd.org/cancer

Not a name that gives me confidence in any form of objectivity

cancer.gov/about-cancer/tre...

Nother about prostate

Appears to be petri dish experimentation without control groups of both prostate cancer cells and regular prostate cells.

If I missed anything would someone please correct me.

Thanks

[efsculpt in reply to cesanon]

Dear Cesanon:

You've got me "pinned" here. Since there is a tsunami of information we all have to sift through, I often use "second hand" input (science articles, summary of lectures, etc.) written by someone else. I look at who they are, the magazine, the web site, the source, and decide if my diminishing time should be invested in that particular source. So, I often come away with a "feel". The projectcbd people got to be read with "a grain of salt" but they may have a hold of some "real", valid clinical trials, so I skim them.

There are 200,000 clinical trials a year in the USA and world.

So, what I got from reading about CBD is that it is good for pain, nausea. I just saw a friend that was diagnosed with colorectal cancer a year and a half ago. She used cannabinoid oil for over a year and is now (she says) cancer free. However, colorectal cancer is not prostate cancer.

Dr. Myers was a "revelation" for me. I tend to trust his judgement ( unless I disagree).

Let me know if you find a legit trial that is "hot".

Craig

[Appraiser in reply to efsculpt]

Not in that field he isnt

[cesanon in reply to Appraiser]

On the field of cannabinoids effect on patients with prostate cancer, he may be all we have.

There are not that many people with such a large population of prostate cancer patients who spend enough time with each patient to be able to pick up any trend like this.

Unless and until cannabis gets legalized at the federal level in the US it is not going to be practical for anyone to do clinical trials in the US.

In order to do that, you need a consistent quality and mix of over 100 cannabinoids. Otherwise you don't even know what it is your studying and your statistical controls are worthless.

It is hard to get reliable fish oil or curcumin, let alone Cannabis.

I know someone in the industry. He tells me that even among the sort of legal non-THC cannabinoid oils, most of it is crappy with lots of impurities and other problems. Most of the vendors don't know how, or bother, to check for quality and consistency from batch to batch. And no one is bothering to check on them. What could possible go wrong?

And then, of course, you also have suppliers like this:

At Least 52 People in Utah Were Poisoned by Fake Cannabis Oil

gizmodo.com/at-least-52-peo...

So if Myers is not the expert in this field, who would be?

So if you are in the final stages and are looking for pain relief, Cannabis sourced from one of the more highly regulated states (such as California or Colorado) might be worth looking into. There they at least have some rudimentary quality controls.

But otherwise, you are risking a lot for a little based on unsupported and unsupportable superstition or belief. Unreliable and inconsistent supplies and suppliers, no evidence of efficacy, and some evidence of contraindication from Myers.

Biological systems are complex and unpredictable. They have their own logic and you can tease that logic out only with carefully controlled clinical trials. Such trials will be long in coming as they are expensive and there is no intellectual property jackpot to fund them.

When someone offers you a single elixir that cures all ills and all cancers, I would run not walk away. That is the definition of snake oil. You want to get high. Sure go ahead, but it would be unwise to rationalize it as a beneficial treatment for your prostate cancer.

[Bluebird11 in reply to cesanon]

With all due respect, I do not think that Dr. Myers is an expert in the field of cannabis and PCa. When on this journey, we begin to realize how different each of us is in terms of reactions to anything we are using.

I'm not saying cannabis cures. I am venturing to say, we do believe it has helped us.

With that being said, it becomes an experiment. Decisions about strains, ratios, dosage, transport- then making sure it is clean with no pesticides.

Dosing is important with any meds we are taking including pharma meds. Often it's the smaller dosing in longer term use, along with taking off short periods of time.

Then again, if someone is acute, the large zap of medication can work, and then again, be too much for kidneys an liver to process... (I'm talking pharma drugs).

I do believe a lot of experimenting needs to be done along with a 'felt sense' of is this right for me. This gets clouded when fear is present.

We along the way have found we needed grounding posts, things we believe in, finding our limits and how we want to live...

I'm experimenting right now as a guinea pig for a cbd/cbn sublingual cannabis for sleep and pain. I know at this point I do feel drowsy with it. It takes a lot to do these experiments and it takes some financial resources.

If we can do these things.. we certainly are worth it..

genie

[cesanon in reply to Bluebird11]

"I do not think that Dr. Myers is an expert in the field of cannabis and PCa."

LOLOLOLOLOLOL..... Listen to yourself.

So you are going to become such an expert by conducting a 1 subject clinical trial?

Are you doing your own statistical work, or are you using a third party statistician (part of the "we" you refer to)? Or are you just going commando?

You are aware of course that CDB metabolism uses a major liver cyp pathway. How do you propose to test and adjust for its interaction with other medications through that cyp pathway?

And have you given any consideration to the "Dunning–Kruger effect"? I am highly confident that the "Dunning–Kruger effect" is going to contaminate the results of your testing. See:

google.com/search?q=%22Dunn...

[Bluebird11 in reply to cesanon]

It was not my intention for my post to upset anyone. What I was responding to ONLY about was Dr. Myers and his impressions of CBD and PCa. That's it. All the other writing I did was to share our experience with this journey and how hard it's been for us to determine what was right for us. This is why I wrote that I am experimenting with it. (my experimentation is not a clinical trial- that may be the misunderstanding.) I am doing this for my husband. I don't intent and never have intended to be an expert or advise anyone to do anything about cannabis, or even any other drug. I've known at least 50 people personally who didn't live, which showed me so many variables to cancer.

All of the drugs given by prescription are not tested with every other drug on the market. There are so many variables and interactions, it becomes difficult for the best people dedicated to this work.

I had a sister in law just die from heart failure. She was taking a multitude of drugs for various reasons, and some collided ... many slowed down the heart. The world of pharma is wrought with dosing and interaction problems. I feel for the docs since this is not easy to determine how anyone will react.

Why would you be so aggressive to me when my post was mostly letting people know, if they wanted to enter the cannabis world, they would also have to not just take CBD or whatever, there would be a lot more to it. I was being quite prudent explaining our experience.

We are all in this ...

When I said with all due respect it was because I was questioning Dr. Myers advice or knowledge with cannabis. Cannabis is quite a touchy subject with a lot of people. There is a long way to go with it.

My attempt speaking about cannabis is mostly about how in the dark we were, and the learning curve we needed even to attempt to take it. I am a payback person, so when the subject comes up, I try to share our experiences and present a broad look at it. We never dive into anything unless we look at risk/reward.

I'm never an advocate for ANY protocol for anyone dealing with PCa. I've learned over these dozen years that everyone is different and responds differently, take different risks, some want to stay strictly conventional, while others strictly alternative and everything in between. I do believe if one can keep the body strong, using the tried and true nature's healers like water, exercise, nature, reduce stress, alive foods- can't hurt and often help even if it's just to feel better.

When we are all trying to share our thoughts and experiences, I do not appreciate you ridiculing me by your LOL and listen to yourself.

I've been in these groups for over 10 years. I've made great friends. I've never been rude. I've learned about life from this disease and I've learned that we are all experimenting. Sometimes a big part of trying to stay alive, to have quality of life means protecting oneself and doing our own research. I am that for my husband.

[cesanon in reply to Bluebird11]

You didn't upset me. LOL

A lot of people look for excuses to engage in irrational, self destructive risky behavior when (a) they are young, and (b) they have cancer. See generally: quackwatch.org/00AboutQuack...

When you post messages that encourage people to disregard medical science and engage in self-medication or self-treatment, it's not about you, it's about others whom you encourage to mimic you. Not unlike social media accounts encouraging children to engage in suicide.

"I do not think that Dr. Myers is an expert in the field of cannabis and PCa." There is no one who is an expert in the field of cannabis and PCa. But the assumption in your post was that you are. That is what the LOL was about.

"Sometimes a big part of trying to stay alive, to have quality of life means protecting oneself and doing our own research." Uninformed research or self-medication can be very very dangerous and even life-threatening.

I have now heard two "experts" mention casual observation that it appears that cannabis may accelerate the growth or aggressiveness of prostate cancer. The second one made a comment to that effect at the most recent fall 2018 PCRI conference. I approached him after his talk and encouraged him to share notes with Dr. Myers. He was a non-doctor who specializes in non-traditional therapy. His comment is on the public DVDs from the conference. No one is an expert in cannabis and prostate cancer. There are no clinical studies.

If there is a connection between cannabis and the growth of prostate cancer, you would not notice it using your proposed protocol. And make no mistake you are encouraging others to mimic what you are doing.

You may want to focus more on the content of what I said than on how I said it.

The CBD family of compounds are very very powerful drugs. Clearly, there is evidence that they are good for pain relief. So yeah, when I get to hospice I will probably use cannabis.

But if you want to encourage others to use cannabinoids for other than end-of-life pain relief, I would encourage that you accompany your proselytizing with a warning that (a) prostate cancer cells have extra cannabinoid receptors, and (b) that there is some anecdotal commentary that cannabinoids may use those receptors to accelerate the growth of prostate cancer.

And that anyone with prostate cancer may want to hold off from the use of cannabinoids until there is at least one clinical trial on its effect on prostate cancer cells. Until that clinical study is done, there exists no expert on the subject of cannabinoids and prostate cancer, and that would include no exceptions for cannabis enthusiasts with prostate cancer in the family.

[cesanon in reply to efsculpt]

efsculpt, if it is not too much effort, would it be possible for you to post links to those studies that suggest CBD promotes apoptosis in prostate cancer cells?

In a quick online search, I have found contrary suggestions.

"Furthermore, concentration of endocannabinoids, expression level of their receptors, and the enzymes involved in their metabolism frequently are associated with an aggressiveness of cancer. This implies that an overactivation of endocannabinoid system might be protumorigenic and plays an essential role in the development of cancer 20, 21."

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

20. Malfitano A. M., Ciaglia E., Gangemi G., Gazzerro P., Laezza C., and Bifulco M.. 2011. Update on the endocannabinoid system as an anticancer target. Expert Opin Ther Targets. 15:297–308. [PubMed]

21. Sailler S., Schmitz K., Jäger E., Ferreiros N., Wicker S., Zschiebsch K., et al. 2014. Regulation of circulating endocannabinoids associated with cancer and metastases in mice and humans. Oncoscience. 1:272–282. [PubMed]

[Joeym1040]

Tried it but did nothing at all for me that I am aware of. Not sure I was taking the right dose, but dosage info was scant. They gave me a 30 day supply free, but did not read small print. After 14 days they charged me $100 for the next 30 days.

[Beermaker]

I use a vape pen and cartridges here in Florida. I can get good ADCD strain CBD oil and I use it in the pen to help me overcome insomnia and pain. I have read that adding some THC can make it more effective. So I also use some 1:1 CBD to THC. It all works pretty well. Close friends have told me that since I started with those I look much better and have more sparkle in my eyes.

I do not believe that CBD oil, THC oil, or and combo like Rick Simpson Oil is useful for stopping or killing PCa. It just make be feel better and able to perform better. YMMV.

[Bluebird11 in reply to Beermaker]

We liked the ACDC strain also. It's not easy to find though. We haven't used the vape pen yet. I have to look into it. It appears the young people know the vape pen. It's all a continual learning experience. Thanks for sharing that.

[cesanon]

Here is a JAMA article

Labeling Accuracy of Cannabidiol Extracts Sold Online

jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...

"The overlabeling of CBD products in this study is similar in magnitude to levels that triggered warning letters to 14 businesses in 2015-2016 from the US Food and Drug Administration3 (eg, actual CBD content was negligible or less than 1% of the labeled content), suggesting that there is a continued need for federal and state regulatory agencies to take steps to ensure label accuracy of these consumer products."

It doesn't appear that they checked for any contaminants or impurities other than THC, which they did find when they looked for it. (the vendors no doubt consider that to be a feature not a bug LOL)

And coupled with this article should give anyone pause:

At Least 52 People in Utah Were Poisoned by Fake Cannabis Oil

gizmodo.com/at-least-52-peo...

"Thirty-four people also said they had bought their product from a smoke shop, while eight said they had gotten it from a friend. Thirty-five said they bought it for recreational use, while 15 said it was for medicinal use. "

Read both articles before making a decision to trust any your local dispensary or online supplier for prostate cancer medication.

There are a lot of vendors out there who are attracted to this industry, who don't give a sh*t about you. They have a reputation for always being high, while concurrently complaining about their employees always being high and therefore unproductive. This is why many of them fail investor due diligence. It is the first thing they look for before passing on a cannabis industry deal.

In another time and age they would have been selling you peach pit medicine to cure your cancer. And actually believing in their product. LOL

[jls12]

My father tried thc oil. I think by the time he was able to get it, his cancer had spread more. The hospice nurses said that it was a miracle he wasn't in much pain. The hormone treatment wasn't working well anymore. Unfortunately he did pass away last year.

[Bluebird11 in reply to jls12]

My cousin's husband died last year of PCa. His PSA had climbed to 800. I too was surprised he had zero pain. That was a gift. Pain is the game changer in all of this. He was a lucky guy. We were all grateful. He did not use cannabis.

Was your father using cannabis while in hospice? thanks..