What success have people had with Dr. P, or Chinese herbal medicine for thyroid and adrenal disorders?

My thyroid tests are normal and I have had a ME/CFS diagnosis for ten years.

[tulula59]

I have tried nutri centre adrenal complex and the thyroid complex to no avail if that is considered herbal.

Did also see an acupunturist at one time who recommended a Chinese preparation to 'aid' my symptoms but I think I was too far down the line for this to really help. It did include licquroice which is said to support the adrenals.

At the end of the day I have found removing gluten, cutting right back on all sugars (in high fructose fruits), good probiotics, water, no caffiene/alcohol of any sort and good supplements of selimium, vit C, B12 and D3 have helped me a little to feel a bit more stable.

But maybe these are simply things that we should all do regardless of any underlying health problem.

I can't say that anything else has acutally removed or cured the problem but it has made some aspects of it more berable.

Gilly

[Hidden in reply to tulula59]

Wow, that was a pretty prompt response, thank you. I have adopted good nutrition like you, but I after cautiously trying supplements like adrenal complex from the Nutri Centre (also to no avail) I have decided to try and focus on getting professional help from an alternative practitioner. The problem is that it is such a 'hit and miss' situation. I have been visiting this forum recently and finding it helpful to think things through. There is no way my regular GP will take my thyroid tests further - a good bloke but pretty orthodox.

[tulula59 in reply to Hidden]

Always a bit of a downer when the GP is fixated with protocol!

I was diagnosed with CFS 12 years ago and improved very gradually then 5 years ago was hit with 'something' that was diagnosed as Fibro!

Having read myself to death over the last 5 years I do beleive that it could all be attributed to thyroid ups and downs.

My CFS consultant did put it in writing that it was a hypothalomus/pituitary axis dysfunction which to me leads perfectly well onto a thyroid issue but this was never examined at the time.

Check out this recent piece of research:

'Inadequate Thyroid Hormone Regulation as the Main

Mechanism of Fibromyalgia: A Review of the Evidence'

its really interesting.

Dr Sarah Myhill in Wales does a huge amount of work on CFS and has some very interesting ways of looking at it too. But for me it has to have some underlying cause even though the symptoms are diagnosed as 'no known cause' in most cases. I beleive they just dont look far enough.

I'm beginning to think myself that if we can't get the right help via the NHS then private anything is worth a shot.

[katherine107 in reply to tulula59]

I went to see Dr pea tfield and started nutri adrenal complex (8 a day) and don't feel any better at all.

[selddit in reply to katherine107]

Oh dear - about to go to see Dr P as the "last chance saloon" Have tried endless so called cures for ME and 4 years down the line feel worse than ever!

[katherine107 in reply to selddit]

i feel worse than ever as well, have fibromyalgia and me as well. i was desperate to get help , that is why i went to see dr p. my gp just says my blood tests are normal. i do take 30mcg of t3 as well as thyroxine but just never feel well. you may get help from dr p. keep me informed.

[selddit in reply to katherine107]

I have a glandular infection at the moment as well which does not help - has anyone tried the Buteyko breathing method - I did it for a year but to no avail although of course they insist it can cure just about everything!

[Hidden in reply to katherine107]

Thanks Katherine, I am sure many people posting here have been ill for a long time without those issues being resolved - it seems like lots of us have made inroads and got small changes, but it's natural to want recovery with a capital 'R'

Whatever new results I get I will be sure to share with people here

[Hidden]

Hi

Just wanted to say that this is 2 questions really..

Also, please post your latest thyroid bloods with ranges.

Thanks

Louise

x

[Hidden]

Thanks Louise - I can resubmit them separately, or people would be welcome to comment on either?

My thyroid tests as they are written on my record (I don't understand, them but the GP says they are well within normal range)

29/05/12 Serum free t4 (pmol/L) 14.3

TSH level(miu//L) 1.68

Serum free triodothyyronine (pmol/L) 3.1 (-)

I tick every box for thyroid issues except the tests, but the GP and the hospital say it is just ME/CFS and I need to concentrate on management. But it is years of illness now and I feel I have to try again to get a better treatment response,

Best wishes

[Maddie in reply to Hidden]

It would be useful to get a more up to date reading for blood tests and also the reference ranges are important. See if you can get an up to date test, it is nearly a year since you had these results.

Also, it is important to get the following tested as well;

Serum ferritin

Serum iron

Folate

B12

Vitamin D

Without the ranges it is difficult to see where you are in the range, for example your serum free triodothyronine could be low but without the range it is not easy to comment. This reading is for T3 and if it is low you will feel ill.

It would be useful to know if you have been tested for thyroid antibodies and also useful to know what thyroxine dose you are taking.

I had CFS for many years but have managed a reasonable level of recovery. I had low T3 which could not be improved with Thyroxine medication and also very low iron levels - Maddie

[Hidden in reply to Maddie]

Thanks Maddie, this is really helpful and something I can take back to my GP - a reason to test again and to test specifically, also for vitamin and mineral levels

[Maddie in reply to Hidden]

This link to the Thyroid UK website for info on 'The role of Vitamins' may be useful;

thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/treatm...

Have you seen Dr Myhill's booklet about CFS? Let me know if not and I can send you the web address, it's a free booklet - Maddie

[Hidden in reply to Maddie]

Thanks Maddie - I have seen Dr Myhill's booklet thank you, but I had not seen the link to the 'role of vitamins' - all good thanks.

The postings have been very helpful altogether - even just to help keep depression from the door!

[Hidden in reply to Maddie]

Hi Maddie, I am sorry for coming back to you again, but I wondered how you have managed to recover somewhat and whether anything in particular helped? If you could not be helped by Thyroxine, were you able to take other medications or herbs?

[Maddie in reply to Hidden]

Hi Townie - When I was very low and suffering with CFS and Hashimotos/underactive thyroid I discovered that I had very low BP and postural hypotension (BP falls when I stand up). Also, I discovered, when I started to request a print out of blood results, that I had low haemoglobin and low haematocrit. I also had a diagnosis of fybromyalgia and GORD - Gastro-oesophageal reflux disease and IBS.

As I had been losing hair I went to see a trichologist who told me that I had male pattern baldness mainly caused by my very low serum ferritin. He advised me that it needs to be approximately 80/90 for hair health.

I went to my GP but he would not treat me as my ferritin level was inside the reference range. It was difficult to get my level up and took around 18 months. I ended up taking Ferrograd modified-release tablets. I took one every other day and they made my constipaton a lot worse. I managed this with various laxatives.

I think that my stomach acid had been low and this has improved due to my higher ferritin level. My BP is now ok and does not drop to the very low levels that it used to.

I have also had a 24 hour heart monitor which showed that I had eptopic beats and bradycardia. These were regarded as normal. I no longer seen to experience these problems.

After I had been diagnosed my GP kept me on 50mcg of thyroxine for two and a half years. I did not know that this was a starter dose and when I mentioned that I felt worse taking the thyroxine my GP assured me that I needed to keep taking it.

I then went to see Dr P who advised Armour which I took for 18 months. At first the one grain I had been told to take sent me overactive and I was then advised to use adrenal support.

The down side of taking armour was that it caused chest pains even when I split the dose. It did stop all the stiffness in my joints and lifted the brain fog. My BP improved and I no longer had dizzy spells.

Next I asked my GP if he could prescribe armour on an NHS script. He made enquiries but he could not do this for me. He did speak to an endocrinologist who told him to refer me to him for a consultation.

When I saw him he said that I should start taking thyroxine again and gradually build up the dose over a period of months. I agreed to do this. He tested my Total T3 levels and they were below the range.

As the increase in thyroxine was not removing all my symptoms he offered me a trial of T3 with a reduced dose of thyroxine. I introduced the T3 gradually and many symptoms improved.

I have also seen a private doctor in Bolton about my CFS and have had a long course of antibiotics. He also recommended Methyl B12.

I have been taking Vit D3, iron, B12, Vit C, omega 3, selenium, copper and zinc, and Adreset - adrenal support formula

I discovered that my local hospital in Salford had a CFS clinic and I now attend this clinic. The consultant recommended a pituitary function test as I have had a head injury in the past, the result was normal function. I've also had the short synacthen test, again normal. Adrenal saliva test shows low cortisol in the day and high at night.

As I have had a suppressed TSH for a few years my consultant wanted me to have a DEXA scan which showed osteopenia. Another scan 18 months later showed more bone loss nearly into the osteoporosis range.

I now take the natural dessicated thyroxine Thyroid S, just one grain per day. My endo wants to see an increase in my TSH range so that it is no longer suppressed.

i have recently had a test for coeliac disease that was negative. I did eat gluten for a few weeks before the test and I'm now trying to be gluten free. I've joined Coeliac UK, membership is free until the end of April.

I am consulting with a hormone specialist on a private basis and using Natural Progesterone Cream and Phytoesrogen Cream to help with the bone loss.

I suffer a lot with insomnia which my CFS consultant has recently diagnosed as Sleep Phase Shift Disorder. Last year I asked my GP if he could refer me to a sleep clinic but he refused. I have suffered with insomnia for years and have not had any help from my GP. When I showed him the letter from the consultant and her diagnosis he immediately referred me to the sleep clinic.

Everything has been an uphill struggle as is the case with most of us suffering with undiagnosed/undertreated thyroid disease.

I find it important to keep control of blood sugar levels and use the Intermittent fasting diet. I've managed to reduce the bulge that was developing around my middle.

I've had my amalgam fillings removed in the past by a dentist specialising in amalgam removal and also had two root fillings removed. These had caused bone erosion due to there being a chronic infection.

I also see Dr S in Birmingham.

I use a Reverse Osmosis water filter for my drinking water and do not smoke or drink alcohol. Staying hydrated is important.

I avoid the use of chemicals around the house as these can make me feel unwell. If I'm in the car I open the window as fumes build up from the chemicals used in the carpets and upholstery.

I do not use perfume and keep my home ventilated, mainly by opening windows. I use a dehumidifier that removes mold spores from the air.

Hope this is useful - Maddie

[Hidden in reply to Maddie]

Hello again Maddie, thanks for your very generous response here. I do find it useful to look at where CFS and thyroid/adrenal issues cross over - especially in terms of how you describe what works for you and how you have gone about being your own best detective and advocate.

It is going to be important for me to establish where I am on the thyroid function map currently - as I still don't have evidence that the issues are definitely thyroid-related, outside of my hypothyroid-like symptoms. This time I will also ask for the clinic range when I pick up my results. Alongside thyroid-type symptoms, I also have hair loss, which I find very upsetting, to my eyebrows and hairline, as well as overall density of hair.

In terms of finding a treatment response that works for me, and takes account of all issues, whether they are CFS related or 'thyroid/adrenal', I know I need a re-evaluation that helps me go forward with some concrete information in hand - not just my own guesswork.

One of the difficulties is I go to my doctor ( an approachable and rational individual) and it's a bit like he gives a yes or a no to my requests for evaluation of B12, Vitamin D etc. Like the hospital and the chronic fatigue clinic, he would clearly prefer me to 'bite the CFS bullet' and settle into simply managing the symptoms with pacing and exercise, and the ever-increasing antidepressants. But I see from being on this site, that it is important for me to develop my communication skills and develop a better dialogue, asking him to justify his refusals and treatment responses to the issues I am bringing, and see if I can get a better dialogue going.

Thanks for taking so much time to answer my question Maddie - I am finding the forum really reassuring, especially when I feel very low, due to symptoms intensifying and flaring.

[Glynisrose]

I am always shocked when people suggest using Chinese herbalists, do they realise that they are supporting the murder of rare animals when they go to them? Or do they think that because their medicine does not contain animal parts its OK?

[poing]

Dr P sounds like a lovely caring person, but his treatment protocols seem to centre around the use of adrenal and thyroid glandulars. There seem to be quite a number of people that are really helped, but also a number that find them too stimulating and don't do well at all. I am not sure that adrenal glandulars are the right thing for everyone, and the one situation that I think they might be actually harmful rather than helpful for is CFS. A person feels better for a while but then they crash. Low adrenal function and the slow metabolism from CFS have a lot of the same symptoms as hypothyroidism. Although some cases of CFS are undiagnosed hypothyrodism, in my opinion not all of them are. In my case my thyroid hormone levels are right the top of their ranges, so there's no room for doubt about what's going on there, but I'm still freaking cold nearly all the time.

[Hidden]

Thanks Poing - I am currently concerned not to start on any supplement or support unadvised and uninformed, because of the lack of success previously, and I am hoping to get an adrenal stress index test to get a better picture.In my case I had mono years ago, and the hospital consultant wanted to link this the later development of ME/CFS to that, so I think I do need to tread carefully.

[poing in reply to Hidden]

I'm in the same boat. I haven't found a specialist of any sort that I really trust and who is prepared to think about how things fit together in my particular situation. You know the saying "to a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". That's how most medical professionals - both conventional and alternative - seem to work. They all have their speciality and tend to be slightly blinkered about stuff ouside their field. I'm doing the best that I can by myself and gradually learning to trust my own judgement. However I would still like to find the right specialist for my particular problem, someone I could really trust. Unfortunately, trust doesn't come easy to me anymore because of the mistakes my doctors have made.

[puncturedbicycle]

I tried acupuncture and a diet recommended by a GP who also practices Chinese medicine. The diet guidelines are pretty straightforward, mainly fresh, cooked foods, regular meals, no sweet or fatty foods, lots of root veg It's hard to quantify the results as my TSH did go down, but of course it will fluctuate anyway over time so there's no way to tie that to the treatment specifically. On the whole it just delayed taking up the real work of trying to get my thyroid sorted out, and I foolishly resisted taking thyroxine during this time.

On the positive side, I looked a lot better. My skin was a much better colour - I had been very grey before I began the treatment. You can't argue with a good diet. I have found acupuncture very helpful for a number of problems but this was not one of them.

[puncturedbicycle in reply to puncturedbicycle]

PS. I've also been on a number of adrenal supplements (not the Nutri products) incl a recent one which has licorice in it and they mostly haven't had any real effect, except the newest supplement made my heart pound and I had to reduce the dose. Have you had the recommended tests for vitamins, etc? I was very low in vitamin D. Having enough vitamin D and enough thyroxine has given me maybe a 10-20% improvement in symptoms but my energy is still very low.

[Hidden]

Thanks punctured bicycle, I am finding the postings here very helpful, as there is very good practical advice with which I can approach my regular GP - I have had lots of tests for vitamins etc and have had iron deficiency sometimes. But as Maddie pointed out - I have had no recent thyroid tests, so that, and a screen for Vitamin D and B vitamins, iron etc, is going to be helpful.

[JemBron]

Anybody not sure about the adrenal support in the form of bovine supplements...might like to look at AD206 - which was posted here some time ago and I have been on. Works much better for me than the Nutri Adrenal - which I found too stimulating.

[Hidden]

Thanks Celora, I just had a quick search here using the supplement name, and this certainly widens my choice a bit, especially from the point of moving cautiously and getting as much information as possible.

[poing]

No, it's not that otherwise I wouldn't have been okay for the first 35 years of my life and I don't have ALL the typical hypo symptoms either (I've been losing weight for instance, not putting it on). It's a tendency towards mineral deficiencies and a dodgy digestive system... did iron, magnesium... still a few more to sort out. But I appreciate your comments all the same.

[poing]

My thyroid function seems unchanged... same TSH for many, many years (it gets tested whenever I tell the doc that I'm cold).

My digestive system, on the other hand, has nosedived, and when that happened I started to get deficiencies. You're right that low stomach acid cause mineral deficiencies... it's a vicous cycle that's hard to break. Under the care of a gastro. Probably have IBD... but no diagnosis.

[poing]

I don't need more hormones, I need to be able to use the ones that i have.... taking more would put me in a very precarious place because it would be too easy to go hyper. I went hyper on 10mg of iron supplements at one point, and that was really not fun. That was when I was chronically low on iron from years and years of heavy periods, so iron absorbtion was upregulated.

Iron is fixed as best it can be for now, but the chronic low zinc and copper are not fixed... both of those affect thermogeneration and metabolic function. Zinc is needed for stomach acid, bicarb production in the intestines and liver function, copper needed for COX enzyme in mitochondria - I think that's where the feeling cold comes from - as well as proper iron transport... (can't improve iron levels without it).

As you point out, without zinc you can't make stomach acid and absorb minerals, including zinc, so I'm stuck in a bit of vicious cycle.

It sometimes seems like my thyroid and adrenals are the only bits that actually work...

[kiltis]

I have regular acupuncture and take a Chinese herbal mix to help with adrenal/thyroid and poor digestion. I think it makes a difference but it's just a part of my 'treatment'. I'm also trying T3 now after being on Nature-Throid.

I used to suffer from insomnia due to high cortisol in the evening. I found that 1g of Melatonin worked really well for me. I took it 1 hour before bedtime.