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From which I take these two quotes:
It is known that statins can, rarely, cause substantial muscle damage (ie, myopathy [approximately one extra case per 10 000 person-years]; or, in a more severe form, rhabdomyolysis [approximately 2–3 cases per 100 000 person-years]) as indicated by muscle symptoms accompanied by biochemical changes (eg, multi-fold rises in creatine kinase).
That is, there is a known and accepted possibility of serious injury - albeit statistically rare.
Furthermore, data were not consistently available on whether muscle events led to the discontinuation of allocated treatment (and thus planned on-treatment analyses for rare events were not possible), and there was no reliable information on some relevant comorbid conditions (such as hypothyroidism) or concomitant medications that might affect the risk of having symptoms.
Without that information, can it be safe to prescribe to people who are hypothyroid?
We obviously have the continuing issue about diagnosis of hyperthyroidism (often TSH-only, and only when well over top of reference interval). And what happens if someone on statins becomes hypothyroid?
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helvella
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That ‘furthermore data were not consistently available’ should read… ‘nobody bothered to check’ argh the inequality in health research is baffling. I’d definitely be statin wary based on the last few discussion threads I’ve seen on it. 🦋💚🦋
Based on my dealings with doctors throughout life, I would never take statins even if the risk of muscle problems was small. If I developed muscle pain I would expect to be disbelieved and would automatically be assumed to be attention seeking or drug seeking or both. Under those circumstances it makes absolutely no sense for me to take statins if any associated problems end up being dismissed with me being gaslighted.
I feel exactly the same as you! A few years ago, I made it very clear to my GP, during a conversation not related to statins, that I would never take statins. It worked because she nor any other GP have told me I should take statins as I was getting older. Perhaps she had made notes in my records regarding my decision… who knows!
Benefits of cholesterol-lowering drug taken by 8 million people in UK outweigh low risk of side-effects, study finds
That might be all well and good, IF high cholesterol was any sort of a problem. Which I don't believe it is. Big Pharma have concocted the cholesterol threat from A to Z, just to sell their drugs.
Of course they do it’s mental illness that’s the problem if symptoms persist they are suddenly all in their head nothing an antidepressant wouldn’t help…grrr
Some years ago I had a (very) short stint on statins (simvastatin) and after a few days I could barely walk from the campsite we were on t the bus stop across the road when previously I’d been able to walk right into town. I also found I was feeling very depressed, I just wanted to curl up in a ball in the corner of our camper.
Up until then I knew absolutely nothing about statins or about possible side effects so I wasn’t influenced by anything I had read or heard. Once I dug around I found that there was a,so a link between statins and depression.
Hmmm reminds me a bit of the ciprofloxacin debate. For years they said the risk of tendon ruptures, cardiac issues, and other stuff was low low low lowwww and now the floxacins have black box warnings in the U.S. originalText This notice is from 2008. I fear it's not the same outside the US. Just a few years ago (in Belgium) my gastro wanted to give me cipro for SIBO. For SIBO! ffs.
How long until statins get black box warnings lol.
Hubby was put on them (statins) and he had terrible leg swelling and muscle weakness. He didn't stay on them for long. I keep trying to get him on thyroid meds (his labs looks hypo and it's in the family) but for gooddness sake that man is more stubborn than me!
I didn't care about the physical side of cipro - but the head side. I seemed to be fine for a while then felt mentally odd - luckily at the end of the course.
GP put it on my records the moment I mentioned it.
Holy sh*t. The list has gotten much longer since i last looked. Thanks
I remember once reading these antibiotics were intended for anthrax and resistant strains and such, not for casual use for things like UTIs and respiratory infections. I would say Unbelievable but i'm no longer suprised by malpractice and deceitful pharma practices.
Haven’t ever taken it but the list of side effects is horrendous and it’s not just ‘minor’ problems. It really does look like it could kill more people than it cures.
I wouldn’t take them because they might make fewer people die of heart attacks but more die of strokes if they take them, so what’s the point unless you think a stroke is preferable to a heart attack as a way to die - at least a heart attack is fast! - whilst big pharma rake in the spondoolies by just swapping one problem for another and dressing it up as a vital life saver. They are nothing but a great big con and I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. Imagine even at those odds dishing out a useless medicine that will even seriously hurt some users via side effects. It’s criminal but they’ll get away with it unless enough of us simply say no we don’t want this stuff. But big pharma and their lies are hard to fight.
I took statins until due to shoulder pain I could no longer reach to brush my hair, fasten my bra, couldn't push up on my arms to get out of the bath. Gp insists it wasn't the statins. Strange how I got full use back after stopping them.
You'll probably find that they've written in your records about the whole thing being psychsomatic, along with so many other things with thyroid disease! Grrrrr
I tried to use statins many years ago. I tried on 3 occasions with a about a month between . Each times on the dose my aches became such that I just had to stop
I was trying to ‘please ‘ the doctor and didn’t realise this was a problem that was becoming known about .
My husband was prescribed Simvastatin some years ago and, not only did they cause him serious muscle weakness, but it also led to him developing Type 2 diabetes! That has been very successfully treated with diet and Metformin (which he has now stopped) and the muscle weakness thankfully cleared up once he stopped the statin. He’s one of these people who believe their doctor but when I showed him some of Malcolm Kendrick’s work on statins (which I found out about on this forum) he stopped them and has felt much better for it.
I used to be one of these people too - I can remember my husband telling me to stop taking the statins and me saying ‘I can’t, the doctor told m to take them’. Absolutely no chance of that happening now. Sad to say but I’ve pretty much lost faith in doctors.
Statins use the same pathway in the body as CoQ10 - cells need CoQ10 for metabolism/energy and should be prescribed with the statin. This could partly explain muscle weakness.
Cholesterol also helps with the production of VitD when the sun's rays reach the skin. In fact taking VitD is as good as a statin when it comes to the anti-inflammatory effect ! Once mentioned by Dr Sarah Myhill !
Blocking anything in the body that is naturally produced for a reason seems a bad idea to me 😢
At one point, I was advised to take statins. Despite having "low cholesterol" and very acceptable triglycerides. (Simply having a touch of atrial fibrillation. )
I couldn't understand the logic then. I still don't.
Was also offered a betablocker but if they couldn't explain the statin, I didn't have much faith in the betablocker either.
Helvella, I was put on stations in 2016 not because I had high cholesterol, but to bring up my good cholesterol. I don't know if it worked as I moved area, and the GP I have now doesn't do anything. I have been hypothyroid since 2008, but my recent blood tests said my TSH was 2.5 and my T4 was 14.5. I checked it out and the chart said that was a reading for hyperthyroidism. But the surgery have said nothing about it, so I am very confused. Plus being on stations, ( I took myself off 3years ago) has left me with extremely painful muscles. I am reluctant to take anything offered by the GP. I don't trust them anymore.
Hello there, I feel for you. Without going into details I recently lost a fifth of my weight but was still on the same levels of meds. When I finally managed to get the appropriate blood test it showed I was very hyper not hypothyroid. The doctor immediately halved my medication. I looked up hyperthyroidism as I had never been hyper before and realized I'd been suffering from some of the effects of a thyroid storm which could have killed me. Scary. I know some doctors can be verbal bullies and they are only as good as the information they are given but I do urge you to be brave and get back to your doctor.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm a bit puzzled, not that I know much about thyroid, only what I read on this wonderful web page. Are you still taking Levothyroxine although you are now hyper. What I've read about my levels is that they represent being hyper. My GP is as useful as a chocolate lifeguard. He treats me with sighs and sustain. I've stopped my Levothyroxine as I just don't know what to do. I know for sure if I went to him he would say that is okay. So why bother. I have been on liquid for about 18 months, he told me off hand to take 10ml. That is equivalent to 200mg of Levothyroxine, far too much for my weight. I worked it out how much to take myself. I have felt unwell for the last 3and a half years, and during that time I had to look after my husband who had Alzheimer's. I was on my knees, I couldn't keep awake. I think I have been just run right down. Plus my destroying and bit d were both half way through the bottom level. But my GP would not give me anything. He said my haemoglobin was ok, and that I wasn't anaemia on that basis. But when I went to that surgery I was on Ferrus funerary. So he reluctantly gave me some, but just one tablet a day. I don't know what that will do.
I have found that GP's don't care.My GP reduced my meds ( following guidelines!).I kept thinking he would see from my blood results that he had got it wrong, but after 3 months of hell and not listening to me, I demanded to see an endocrinologist.
I have increased my dosage myself and I have an appointment with the endocrinologist next month.
My last blood test was in June, ... it showed TSH 0.1 & free T4 16.9.
I haven't a clue what those figures mean, and that's the only figures I have .
You are right, they don't listen. I have asked for a different GP, but no-one is listening to that either. I am going to refuse to see him. I very rarely go. It's always to do with my thyroid. I also have Pernicious anaemia, and he is always trying to cut my injections. But I have said no. He did cut them a few years ago and I was very ill. He's an idiot. When I try and talk to him about thyroid or pernicious anaemia, he looks blank. I don't think he has a clue. And I would never trust his judgement again. Because Omeprazole upsets my stomach, I refused it. And he tried to give me some other stomach medicine, I refused that as well.
I trust my own judgement. And self medicate where I can.
I'm not in a position to diagnose, nor is anyone else on this site. I am, however, hearing what stress you have been under. My own experience of having been a carer is that quite apart from the physical efforts involved, and in your case presumably the mental stress, the sheer weight of responsibility for another's life is exhausting. It wasn't until I finished being a carer that I realized just how exhausting it had been.Have you come across Dr Gabor Maté on You Tube? He is talking about stress/trauma and the effects it has on our health including things like thyroid. It may help you understand what is going on.
I don't know what Ferrus Funerary is but it sounds like an iron containing product. My understanding is that after the menopause we shouldn't be taking extra iron. Check it out with your pharmacist.
I am now on 50µg i.e. half of what I was taking of levothyrox. I'm leaving things for a little while before checking whether that level is OK but it will only be whether the levels of T3 T4 are within normal range, not how effective it will be.
Be kind and gentle on yourself, nice regular, nourishing meals and plenty of them so you don't fear going short and only eat what you need. Love yourself for the wonderful and courageous woman you are. I've learnt it's not selfish to put yourself first. This is your time for you.
I get pushed statins every phone call/review and when I refuse it's like I'm being scolded for not taking them. One GP actually prescribed them, against my wishes, and they were with my Levo when I picked up my prescription! Went straight in the bin.
The last antibiotic I was prescribed - Nitrofurantoin - was toxic for me and caused an allergic reaction, the worst I've ever had. I had a terrible headache, nausea, dizziness, and felt doped as if I'd been popped a sleeping pill. I then woke up covered in a severe, burning rash all over my body. Couldn't get an emergency appointment for the surgery. Told them I was in pain/what have you done to me?/would you like to see the photos I've taken of this inflamed body rash? but they couldn't squeeze me in and told me to call the pharmacy for advice. Ended up with antihistamine tablets and cream to settle down the toxic effects of the antibiotic (which it did) but had it not worked, I would have probably had to go to A&E - which would've resulted in my having to wait several weeks in the waiting room.
It would be so nice to get a pleasant, encouraging, positive phone review from a GP without the phrase: you really should be taking statins
From my experience statins did in fact kill my muscles and joints but maybe it’s possible that statins irritated my psoriatic arthritis either way It was too much added pain for me to continue with them.
This 'study' came out of Oxford University ................what's the betting on Prof Rory Collins being behind this? I don't think it's as much to with 'nobody bothered to check' Regenallotment as they refuse to make the data available.
Obviously there is a renewed push for statins. I wonder whether this is yet another "research" where they have sifted and sifted until the results were what they wanted. Years and years back my doctor lowered my dose of Synthroid and then, because my cholesterol went up (shocker!), put me on statins. I had muscle pain in muscles I did not even know I had. I was hurting from head to toe, literally. I would rather give birth to ten more children than go through that ever again. I talked to my uncle who also had high cholesterol and he told me he went through the same pain. Apparently he threw the box at the doctor and said, "You can eat this sh*t yourself." He lived happily ever after to the ripe old age of 96 with his high cholesterol and no statins. So, here you go, there can be muscle pain and muscle loss with statins with or without thyroid issues. I have no idea how such a bold statement can be made and what, the heck, do they mean by "commonly". In any case, this offers yet another opportunity for doctors to prescribe antidepressants and gaslight unsuspecting patients.
I was also given Statins,not for hight cholesterol but to bring up the good cholesterol. All I got was agony in my muscles, and I still have it. I said to my neighbour today that I think these drug companies are testing out drugs on the general public to make sure they are safe for the so called elite. Not that I am cynical or anything.
These drug companies have ruined the world. Putting poison on our crops. Then giving us poison to combat the food that has been poisoned.!!! Forgot to say well done your uncle.
My uncle was quite the character. He didn't take any bs from anybody and he did not like doctors (based on his experience, I assume). His motto was, "If you want to live a long and healthy life, stay away from doctors." It seemed to have worked for him because he was fairly healthy (he was blind in his old age, which did not stop him from chopping wood) and active to the end and passed away in his sleep.
Firstly, thanks to Helvella for posting this. I read a Nocebo comment about statins at least once a week.
Here are my comments.
1. NOCEBO
Sure, Nocebo is a valid concept. If you tell someone that they may experience certain side effects from a medication or treatment, the chances of them experiencing these side effects are greater than if they were not told about it.
However, my point is this - WHY has the medical community latched on this agreed valid concept SOLELY to debunk people who say they have muscle aches from statins?
They don’t wheel out Nocebo for say, Bisoprolol, a BP medication, that can also give you muscle pain.
It seems to me that Nocebo is nowadays totally linked to statins.
2. LIFESTYLE
Surely, should not Lifestyle be the first port of call, for any illness?
No point a doc signing a medication prescription if the patient continues an unhealthy lifestyle.
Should not the patient first be advised to?
- do lots of exercise
- get their BMI down to 21
- no booze or smoking
- vegan diet
- etc
However, this doesn’t happen in the majority of cases. The doc just signs the prescription and sends the patient on their way.
3. STATIN SIDE EFFECT MISINFORMATION
This is a list of statin side effects in the leaflets.
Now, every statin prescriber in the world is aware that Myalgia is the main side effect of statins.
However, the layman is not made aware of this, as all they are told above is that myalgia is just 1 of 11 side effects to look out for.
And, this is total misinformation, as MYALGIA IS THE NUMBER ONE SIDE EFFECT OF STATINS.
As, 90% of statin side effects are Muscle Aches.
4. WHY NOT TOTALLY REMOVE THE MUSCLE ACHE SIDE EFFECT FROM STATINS?
Statins are the Number One prescribed medication in the world. A market worth, I’ve read, anything from 20 to 50 billion £ a year.
So, the finance IS THERE to oblige PHARMA to remove the muscle ache side effect totally.
However, this hasn’t happened. Why not?
Surely, is not safety the key to any medication?
5. EXERCISE IS THE GREATEST RISK FACTOR FOR STATIN MUSCLE ACHES
No medic will tell you that.
They all know that the number one side effect is muscle aches.
And they are all aware that to exercise you need good muscles.
So, why don’t they ally the 2 together and inform the exerciser that they will be at 4 times at greater risk of muscle aches, as evidenced by this landmark study by Sinzinger and O’Grady that showed that only 20% of Athletes tolerated statins, compared to 80% of the general population?
I can tell you about my mother's experience with statins, she was diagnosed with an under active thyroid then went on to have a heart attack, ( I'm sure that was due to under medication as she was put on 50mg T4 and her gp never bothered her again) after the heart attack she was put on statins.
Apart from her arthritis she didn't have any other pain until around 6-7 years on the statins, she noticed as did I she was in a lot of muscle pain, gp prescribed strong painkillers, but she just got worse.
After 20 years on these statins her muscles started to deteriorate to the point she could only walk with an aid.. ( walking frame) then her left foot bended in and she could no longer walk, her gp had no idea what was wrong with her and put her foot into a boot to the rectify the bend, it never worked, eventually we got her to a specialist at Newcastle a lovely Dr, who after muscle tests with pins and electrodes told me my mother now had no muscle tone in her legs and very little in her upper body.
He reluctantly diagnosed motor neurone disease, I watched my mother die within a year of diagnosis, we later found out just before she died a member of the family (distance relative) was in hospital with much the same symptoms as my mother, I went to visit her and found she to had a heart attack many years ago and was put on statins, she actually blamed them as she said she never felt well on them, she had terrible body pain,
I myself got a diagnosis of calcification in the LAD (heart) and right away the specialist wanted to prescribe statins... I told him "no thank you" and the calcification in my heart is due to high blood calcium (primary hyperparathyroidism) but he disagreed, I told him about my mother and distance relative not dying by a heat attack, but of muscle waste🤷♀️.. He totally lost it and told me it was my choice.. But I could at some point have a heart attack, my mum just turned 70 before she died our relative was 67😔😔
I will never take statins , running a guest house for 14+ years and chatting to guests, I can confirm side effects in more the one or two in 10,000, but there you go - I actually talk to people AND listen……….
After a quick trawl through the papers linked in the OP, I must concur with most comments here that statins are to be avoided. For example, the 1st paper has a longer list of conflicts of interest with big pharma than it's conclusion!
As Malcolm Kendrick has previously indicated with supporting evidence, low cholesterol is not good in terms of mortality. In fact, my dad is looking to raise his from a total of only ~3.5!
Thank you for your reply. I am on liquid Levothyroxine. I have been hypo for years. But the latest figures suggest hyper. Not that I know much about it. Thank you again.
Hello, could I ask a couple of things please. Firstly about my husband and then myself. My husband had a TIA a few years back - June 2016 actually. I just looked up my records and it says the GP was treating it as a TIA and gave him aspirin and statins until the appointment would come through from the hospital. It was found he had a small piece of plaque in his neck and so he was given some tablets instead of aspirin (that must have been the Clopidogerel) and was told keep on with the statins, so that is how statins started.
The first type he took gave him muscle aches and so he was changed to another one, which caused no ill effects. Recently though, he has been getting a lot of restless legs during the evening, and shin splints. I thought it might be his low-in-range B12 and I had also had his thyroid checked and when I posted on here I was told it would never get treated by a doctor at that range, we didn't pursue it although I may do yet. He saw a doctor recently, and he has been doing blood tests - D, B12, folate etc. He also said to discontinue the statins for two weeks and if the restless legs stop then stop the statins and if they don't, then start them up again, and get in touch in 4 weeks to report back. The restless legs seem to have gone, but he tells me he has shin splints still.
For myself, I have neuropathy in my feet and some in legs and the neurologist completed a series of tests, including 3 MRI's, one being of my brain. It came back ''very mild small vessel ischaemic disease in the brain' . It was suggested I go on a statin, which of course I was very wary of. I researched a bit and also asked my son, who is an osteopath. He suggested I may want to consider it as my mum had a stroke in her 50's, but I think this was to with her very heavy smoking, which she never cut down on till her death at 71. Well, I did start on the statin in July and it seemed ok, no muscle aches (it is Atorvastatin which was the one my son said to ask for). After a while my sleep became horrendous again (after having improved with levo and T3), just gradually going downhill. I wrote a letter to the doctor to have a talk with her but since then the sleeping has improved again, and I don't think I need to speak with her now.
If I am to continue with this statin, I have read something about CoQ10. I have read it on here and on a Facebook group. Is there a particular strength I should have?
I was thinking HealthUnlocked - I'd never point anyone at facebook - especially as I won't sign up to it! (Not saying there are some excellent forums there - there might well be.)
If you search all of HU (use the search box at top right) for, say Apixaban, you get a lot of hits - across many forums. AF Association. British Heart Foundation. For example:
Thank you, there seem to be a few I could choose from . I love Facebook, that is how I got in touch with my long-lost cousins and they came to my party! It has great information and is not all rubbish, you just have to be careful not to get bogged down in the rubbish! They do have some good groups. I am on many sewing groups and one or two D groups, B12 and others. It is great for keeping in touch with local things too. Probably not convincing you! ha ha.
It isn't the people on facebook, it is the company and what they do. And their unbelievable power.
If they don't like you, they can ban you and you can do nothing about it. (Yes, you can try, but if they say no, you don't have much realistic chance of fighting back.)
Which is bad enough for an individual. Worse when an organisation (whether commercial, charity or whatever else) gets banned and loses everything they invested in facebook. Their customers and members. Their web presence. Their history.
One thing I have noticed about the whole "statins cause muscle pain" issue is that the heart is a muscle, and if muscles are affected by statins then the heart will be too. But doctors and the media never seem to mention this.
And they try to sweep under the carpet that, in at least some cases, the pain doesn't stop, nor the damage repair, when the statins are stopped. And there is no known effective treatment.
That is an awful "sentence" to apply to those who suffer it for the modest benefits of statins for most of us. And still a high rate of side effects.
A bit old (2016) but:
No statistically significant mortality benefit
1 in 217 avoided a nonfatal heart attack (myocardial infarction)
I brought this up with my GP as my levo has worked pretty significantly on my heart symptoms BUT he looked at me as if I was ‘uneducated’ and informed me that the heart was a very different type of muscle. Mmm. It might be more complex or more developed or adapted for its purpose but in the end it IS muscle.
My husband was strongly advised to start statins over 8 years ago. We avoided the advice and opted for a healthier life style, namely resistance training & healthier diet. Post covid my husbands cholesterol appeared unusually high due to illness. We chose to use 500mg Niacin after each meal and 1 teaspoon Amla powder, twice a day. Take a look at info from Dr Greger nutritionfacts.org
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