Anyone have experience with bovine NDT?

[Jodypody]

Just that really. I’ve switched from Thai to Thyro Active 2 which I assume is the old Metative 2 ? I’ve started low so not feeling good with lots of digestive issues but at least I’m sleeping

[helvella Administrator]

There are several products called Thyro Active (confusingly). With or without numbers, hyphens, spaces, or whatever in their names!

Which one do you mean?

I don't quite understand why you think it might be the old Metavive 2?

[Jodypody in reply to helvella]

It’s the regenerative nutrition one. I was hazarding a guess

[SeasideSusie Remembering]

Jodypody

ThyroActive is not Metavive. Metavive hasn't changed their name and is still produced by the same people as before. ThyroActive is produced by different people. Both are thyroid glandulars and Metavive doesn't declare any thyroid hormone content.

[neckmed1 in reply to SeasideSusie]

Also Metavive 11 &1 are porcine, Metavive111 &1V are bovine

[SeasideSusie Remembering in reply to neckmed1]

neckmed1

Yes I know that, but that's nothing to do with the OP's question and Metavive isn't ThyroActive.

[Jodypody in reply to SeasideSusie]

Ah right I see yes this has specific T3 and T4 quoted ratios

[Micky7]

I.am taking thyrovanz from US, now.I do feel ok on 100 mcg( it is bovine)

[Jodypody in reply to Micky7]

Oh hi Micky it’s quite expensive isn’t it but I’ll have a look

[reliablerebel]

Well I hope thyroactive2 is better than thyroactive1 was - several of us tried it with disastrous results. So much so they gave us a refund. But that was porcine not bovine, and they have reformulated it since. I hope it works for you. Out of interest why did you decided to swap from porcine to bovine - were you not happy on the thai?

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

I prefer beef to pork! Honestly I just thought it might be worth a try. WP was really the only one that worked then as you probably know it was reformulated and that turned in to a disaster and then I have had two decent batches of Thai then the last was truly awful and now I can’t get that.

[reliablerebel in reply to Jodypody]

Well I know they reformulated, thats why its called thyroactive2. It might work for you so worth a try. Usually the porcine glandular has a higher T3:T4 ratio ie more T3, than the bovine which has lower T3 and higher T4. But bovine suits some people better if they are more sensitive to T3 content, so its really just trial and error. Did you have bloods done prior to starting the thyroactive to give you a baseline?

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

Ah that’s interesting as low T3 is more my issue. Even based on current nHS guidelines I came in under! I may order the porcine next then. I was overdosed unbeknownst to me as I self medicate and been too busy with work so assumed it was stress. To be honest I’ve lost my way so that’s why I’ve decided to drop right back to 2 grains and go through the crap process of holding off for two weeks instead of rushing in and missing the sweet spot. I’ve probably put on 10lbs in the last couple of weeks already but hey.

[reliablerebel in reply to Jodypody]

I also self medicate, usually do bloods twice a year, but as I have recently switched to metavive I am going to do them every three months until I settle on a dose.

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

Good call. I was going to wait until I felt I was getting closer to normal. I had 2 lots done at the Gp one was by order of endocrine dept the other my GP both didn’t ask for T3 which is useless 😅

[Dorey69]

What’s the difference between porcine and bovine please

[helvella Administrator in reply to Dorey69]

The amounts of T4 and T3 are a little different with bovine having slightly more T4 (as a percentage).

And some people seem to prefer one to the other.

Who knows what other differences there are which affect which people prefer?

[Dorey69 in reply to helvella]

Thanks 😊

[Jodypody in reply to Dorey69]

Porcine is from pigs bovine from cows

[Dorey69 in reply to Jodypody]

Thanks 😊 I knew that. It was the ratio of the strengths between T3-T4.

[Jodypody in reply to Dorey69]

Ah right. Slightly less T3 9.1 instead of 9.7 in porcine. I didn’t notice when I ordered was just so desperate to find an alternative to the dodgy batch of Thai

[Miffie]

I have changed to Thyro-Gold, a bovine some time ago due to supply issues with my regular porcine. I contacted supplier, the widow of the late Dr Lowe. to check the hormone levels before purchasing. A few downsides:-

The cost was grim as I had both hefty postage and customs charges to pay, it comes from USA.

I found I needed to add T3.

They are capsules so very hard to tweak dose as we can with a tablet. I will g ack to porcine at the first opportunity once I am further through my supply and Thai porcine is hopefully once more on the market.

My personal experience but we are all very different, my thyroid was destroyed over sixty years ago so I was a pertinent NDT prescription for many years.

[Jodypody in reply to Miffie]

I’ve ordered their porcine option as it’s fairly inexpensive at£20 for a couple of months supply. In the meantime I’ve increased to 2.5 grains (ish as I’m splitting a powder capsule in half) hopefully today I won’t have to wear a ton of layers with the heating on!!

[Miffie]

Not sure what you’ve ordered a porcine version of, not Thyro-Gold as it doesn’t exist. Plus with them one capsules is not one grain. I hope you know what you have ordered and exactly what it contains.

Good luck

[Jodypody in reply to Miffie]

Porcine of thyro active

[reliablerebel]

confused here Jodypody, yesterday you said you had ordered bovine?

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

Hi sorry I’m on bovine and not sure it’s the best option so I’ve gone ahead and ordered the porcine version too just to be sure

[reliablerebel in reply to Jodypody]

Ok I understand now. Keep an eye on your resting heart rate. A good indication of over and under medication

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

Unfortunately I can’t go by this as I suffer from anxiety

[reliablerebel in reply to Jodypody]

Your resting heart rate is what is measured. My fitbit does this for me - its like an average over the day for resting heart rate. It is definitely worth looking in to. I wish I knew about this a long time ago. Your rhr changes day by day, but there is a definite trend up or down if you are over or undermedicated. A lot of people do not know that this is a tool you can use. I don't think there is any way for me to attach a photo to show what I mean

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

I’ll pick one up. My blood pressure went through the roof recently on my Thai meds which is why I changed I am on HrT now but have never had a blood pressure issue due to my lifestyle (exercising most days of the week, good diet) I do however run a company that’s been affected by Covid and I had Covid in March so I’m guessing long Covid is also at play. I’m also in an unhappy place but have children to consider so I just stay unhappy for their sake. I didn’t realise that had a really negative effect on BP.

[reliablerebel in reply to Jodypody]

sound like you have got a lot on your plate. One piece of advice from personal experience, stay on one ndt until you know it works (or if it doesn't) - swapping brands and doses is confusing for you, but double confusing for the body, it relies on a constant stable level of T3 - whether that is from ndt, synthetic T4, T3 or just your body's own T4 converting to T3. It takes about six weeks to stabilise your levels on each dose change, so wait six weeks to test - unless of course you think you are very undermedicated. Testing is expensive here in Ireland so I try to keep it to a minimum. Its only in the last year that I learned the trick of using my resting heart rate. This is not the same as blood pressure, just in case you think (reading your previous comment) that that is what I meant. I have learned so much from this forum over the years, and although I have had a bumpy ride this summer, first by trying Thyroactive which appeared to contain zero hormone - then swapping onto metavive11 and managing to overmedicate myself, consider myself lucky to be reasonably stable on dose and lack of symptoms. Interesting to see that they now state amounts of T3/T4 in both porcine and bovine Thyroactive2 - usually for a glanduar (which this is and metavive is also) they don't do this. Hopefully the reformulation is an improvement on its predecessor.

[Jodypody in reply to reliablerebel]

I agree. I was ok on Thai NDT for a couple of years then it became scarce. I managed to find a kind person who sold me her supply as it hadn’t agreed with her but I think it was a dodgy batch as I had all sorts of issues with it I could never get the dose right and ended up overdosed. I was recommended Thuroactive but thought it might be worth trying the bovine version. Since found out the bovine had less T3 which isn’t ideal for me. Knowing Brexit is on its way I’ve ordered porcine just so I have a decent stock. I’ll wait till I finish this batch of bovine (I’m only 3 weeks in) I couldn’t tolerate 6 weeks of clearly being under medicated though I find it intolerable. I’ve put about 10lbs on in 2 weeks and keep waking having panic attacks plus being permanently cold when everyone else is warm

[Dorey69 in reply to reliablerebel]

Hi. Sorry to bother you, how do you know your over medicated on metavive ll plz, I worked my way up to one full capsule a day. The 80mg one. I felt great at first. A lot better than I did. But I’m just getting over Covid and still suffering side effects etc. But my heart is always racing but that’s one of the side effects from Covid,

But still having gut issues from Covid and high TSH.

I don’t understand the grain thing. 😌

[reliablerebel in reply to Dorey69]

Firstly, the grain thing refers to ndt - for some reason the regular size capsule/tablet of most of the ndt's was about 60mg, but was always referred to as a grain. Which was fine, we all knew where we were. The problem is that now there is so little ndt available that most of us have now had to swap on to synthetic T4, synthetic T3 (or a combination of both) or, as in my case, a thyroid glandular like metavive. The difference between ndt and a glandular is a bit vague, but with ndt it is sold as a medication and publishes the amounts of T4 and T3 in each grain. But "glandulars" are sold as supplements to get around licencing rules. So they cannot publish amounts of hormones as then they would have to be licenced as medication. Glandulars are also not allowed to advertise that they can treat a condition, only "supplement the thyroid". The 80mg metavive11 capsule only contains 30mg of thyroid powder/extract - the other 50mg is added nucleotides, again, to help with marketing metavive as a supplement, and not a medication. But of that 30mg, we do not know what the hormone content is. Which makes converting from grains of ndt to mg of metavive a very tricky and unscientific business. However, having been led to believe that glandulars are MUCH weaker than ndt, many of us have ended up overmedicated on metavive. But that's easier to fix than taking some of the newer ndt's on the market that were worse than useless. If you are overmedicated you can stop for a couple of days, then start back on a reduced dosage. You are probably able to tell you are overmedicated more easily (and quickly) than being undermedicated. Sometimes undermedication can be felt, but often it is a blood test or weight gain or return of symptoms that provides the evidence.Symptoms of overmedication can be insomnie, anxiety, increased heart rate, skin sensitivities, GI issues, And more that I don't know of. I have a fitbit which measures my resting heart rate. This changes daily, but you can see a trend. If its dropping you are undermedicated, if it is rising you could be overmedicated, or if you are only starting on metavive it might just mean it is working.

I suffered from bad insomnia, raised rhr, my scalp was very sensitive in that I thought things were crawling in my hair, and my knicker elastic started to bother me. It took me a week or so to connect the dots, and all was resolved by dropping the dose.

You say your TSH is high, that means you are undermedicated. What were you on before metavive? Covid must be a shocker, and I am sure it makes medicating for underactive more tricky.

Sorry for the essay!! Hope some of it was informative x

[helvella Administrator in reply to reliablerebel]

Firstly, the grain thing refers to ndt - for some reason the regular size capsule/tablet of most of the ndt's was about 60mg, but was always referred to as a grain

I think it is the other way round!

Desiccated thyroid products were originally produced in doses based on grains.

Then the whole pharmaceutical industry moved substantially over to "metric" or "SI" units. In doing so, some chose to round up a tiny bit and treat one grain as 65 milligrams. Others chose to round down to a nice simple number, 60 milligrams.

More detail in my document:

helvella – Micrograms, Milligrams and Grams

dropbox.com/s/h63dzfr9o4jr8...

(Not quite finished - I am still editing little bits. But substantially as intended.)

[reliablerebel in reply to helvella]

That is what I thought I said, but obviously not eloquently enough to be understood - thanks for clarifying x

[Dorey69 in reply to reliablerebel]

Hi. Thanks for explaining it. My TSH was high 39, before I started metavive. But couldn’t take the levo from the GP. So because I’m having to many bad symptoms I decided to buy it to see if it helps, after a few weeks I felt better than I did. Energy increased etc. But then Covid hit 😢 so still recovering really. So I’m not sure if my symptoms are thyroid again or the long Covid effects.

I appreciate the advice and tips as it’s very confusing to a lot of us. But trying to get healthy or feel better than I did.

[reliablerebel in reply to Dorey69]

How long are you on the metavive? If you have been stable on a dose for 6 weeks or more I would do blood tests to see where you are at. That should tell you if your tsh is dropping and whether you are under or overmedicated.

[real_mission]

I tried the bovine thyroid active one, my TSH skyrocketed. Blood tests show there's little or no T4 in it