Here is a very recent article from Newcastle-on-Tyne medics about the elderly person, subclinical (so-called) hypothyroidism and the need to be severe as to the meaning and implication of TSH when it come to a decision to treat. This is a supreme example of categorising patients into classes which are then treated as if they were all identical robots that respond all the same to the same TSH values. Truly, the medical establishment simply can't get its head around the idea of patient individuality regarding diagnosis and treatment, rather pushing age groups into amorphous classes, in each of which individuals are treated according to a rigid plan. This is the huge hurdle medics have to get over but are failing miserably in this, to understand the implications of what they think and do in this respect. I regret that the siren call of exact biochemistry has misled thyroid medics to think they are scientists whose medical art is secondary.
They will always miss the point, I am sad to say. Thanks for posting this. My 86 year old mother has been subclinically hypo for 10 years and only now have they treated her. In the meantime she has developed all sorts of thyroid related cardiac problems. We have tried in numerous occasions to get her help with no result (she lives in the US). As I said the other day, shameful. They think the 25 mcg of Synthroid they will give her will cause her problems. The problems have already happened - too little too late, and she suffered in the meantime. 😢
Until the results of such RCTs are available to guide clinical management international guidelines should be followed that advocate a conservative policy in the management of mild subclinical hypothyroidism in older individuals.
If they have not got the evidence (implicitly the case as they call for RCTs), then any approach whatsoever requires consideration of the case in front of them and not some blanket guidelines that were generated without evidence. Lack of evidence is not evidence that a conservative piolicy should be advocated - it is what it is, LACK of evidence.
Quoting "Vincent":
They would not listen, they're not listening still
Thanks for the link. The medics simply DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN because it suits them. Am sure they would treat themselves adequately if they had hypothyroidism. Something is seriously wrong with doctors who are unwilling to help patients when so little would help people to function better and have a better quality of life. It looks like they want to keep patients in ill health. What can their motivation be in doing so? Letting older patients die prematurely so that it will be cheaper for the NHS? Cynicism on my part? Perhaps not ...
Yes, it's a presumption that doing nothing will do least harm, whereas it's equally likely that doing nothing will indeed promote increased harm. It's a very odd equation:
"In a situation where we are in limbo: hang on to nurse, for fear of meeting something worse". Doing nothing is a refusal to accept responsibility.
Totally agree with you Diogenes. “Doing nothing is a refusal to accept responsibility “! True.
Doctors do not want to accept any form of responsibility.... Doctors are not doctors anymore, taking the easier decision rather than deciding what might help the patients lead a better quality of life. We’ doomed!
I've noticed this assumption in a few other papers, and in stories of patient experience on the forum.
Doctors have the idea that withdrawing or denying a medicine is not them doing harm, even if the patient becomes very sick as a result. For example stopping someone's T3, or the terrible practice we often hear on the forum of a doctor asking a long term thyroid hormone patient to give up all hormone so they can "see what their levels are".
I think the word "treat" has been subverted by the food industry to mean "sugar laden" with the medical meaning now including removal of treatment (de-prescribing). Untreating, if you will.
Absolutely!! Getting old especially when having complex medical issues is so frightening. One feels alone fighting battles all the time when we feel so vulnerable at the time and having little energy to fight for the right to treatment.
Many are afraid to consider their future as endocrinologists without being able to put us all in boxes before relying on what appears to be their safety blanket of TSH. Is it basically the easy way out when clinical evaluation skills are weak?
I gave an endo a copy of the excellent paper ( Time for a reassessment of the treatment of hypothyroidism) produced by you and your colleagues . He had been ranting on about my suppressed TSH etc - I self med with a high dose of T3 which he didn't understand.
Funny, he never mentioned TSH to me after that!
Will it change his diagnostic/ medication approach? I doubt it.
He left me to do my own thing I.e. "maintain the status quo"
Diogenes, I think you are being far too kind in the way you have worded your post. For example, "the medical establishment simply can't get its head around the idea of patient individuality" I am quite sure the word 'can't' should be replaced by 'won't'.
And "the huge hurdle medics have to get over but are failing miserably in this". Yes, they are failing, but that's because they flatly refuse to even try.
All this, in my opinion, is no longer about inability to understand or learn, if indeed it ever has been. It's all part of a battle between the medical profession and thyroid patients that's been going on for many years. And the medical profession are absolutely adamant that thyroid patients will never, ever win this battle, on principle, regardless of the reality of science/research etc. No way can we patients ever be allowed to be able to say "we told you so'.
Had an asthma check this time last year. My peak flows were always around 380- 400, occasionally slightly higher.
New asthma nurse wanted higher. Insisted I change how I use my inhaler and spacer. Her idea was in and out in and out multiple times. Shallow breaths. I had been exhaling completely, inhaling until my lungs expanded, holding my breath with my lips closed then repeating - as I was shown years ago.
The nurse’s ‘new’ way made me hyperventilate. Patient individuality was obviously not on that asthma nurse’s agenda.
Then I looked up Dr Google and discovered from a chart that for my height and age that I was actually above the curve.
Why oh why potentially mess someone up for no reason at all - I only ever use my preventer - not the blue one for emergencies, although I carry it ‘in case’ - other than I imagine I didn’t ‘fit’ in with what she had in mind.
This year went much better - totally new person, a pharmacist - I confessed I had gone back to taking my inhaler my own way and why - no problem as I know how to breath and she was well pleased with what I was doing and said that 400 was very good. I felt last year that anyone not as confident as I am could have been totally demoralised.
Last year the practice nurse insisted I ditched my inhalers for a metered dose thingy which was supposedly much better. What she failed to notice or tell me was that I had a counter indication and should not have even been taking the new medication at all. As you say, we’ve all been put in boxes..usually the wrong ones.
That nurse has no idea how to take an inhaler - and what she is recommending is totally incorrect and not recommended by the manufacturer. I know I should not be surprised, but I can’t help myself ...
Indeed, standing up for self doesn't always come easy to some people - potentially cowed by medics - yet in the long run, this worsens things for all. Perhaps lessons in school to... yeah, that's going to happen
Thanks for the link. It seems they don’t really want older people to achieve a better quality of life... A cull to reduce costs to NHS or simply they aren’t prepared to review their outdated opinions because it would create too much work for them? I really don’t understand such unwillingness on their part to help patients.
I agree about older people - the NHS seem to be rationing hip replacements and cataract operations at the moment so where’s the quality of life for those mostly elderly patients?
Yet when it comes to very sick people living lives they no longer want to tolerate because they know they are heading for a horrible death ‘they’ will not allow euthanasia and so we hear regularly of poor people heading off to Switzerland when they would rather spend more time at home with their relatives but need to go while they are still able to say that they want to end their lives but not criminalise their relatives.
To me, it’s a weird world, they won’t allow some very sick people to die a peaceful death at a time of their own choice but at the same time they don’t want to spend money that will give others a decent quality of life.
Plus the NHS spend money on treating alcoholics and drug addicts who too often go back to their previous ways. So where’s the common sense and fairness in this?
Their needs are far too complex for an NHS quick fix, but they should still be given help! There are often - or perhaps always - dreadful reasons for people resorting to drugs to blot out things that are too painful to face and which they did nothing to deserve. Better designed programmes have had some success. We will always be hypothyroid and without help will revert to that state - is not there a parallel there? Where could this line of reasoning end. Why bother to treat any one at all just let the superfit prevail - that would be cheap and easy!
I wasn’t offended honest - just felt that even though many drug abusers revert to destructive habits they should not be written off. I’d agree that paying for inappropriate treatment with very poor success rates should be questioned and other approaches sought.
Old people simply don’t matter to them we are just a nuisance and best left to rot. It is a rubbish society with such awful attitudes and it is getting worse. They infantilise us but unlike a child consider us to have no potential left.
Agree with everything you have said. The way of the medical profession now seems to be just a money making business. They use elderly people as easy targets and can quickly insist they have other conditions like dementia etc (means a nice drug given for that so money to be made!) - they know elderly people are of the generation who tend to believe anything a Dr says because they are 'respected' members of society . . . . . many elderly are also scared into other procedures like 'treatments' for shingles and flu. This further causes other medical problems and more toxicity but so long as they keep focussing on everything but thyroid treatment eh! There is no fairness in NHS treatment anymore, they have another agenda and it isnt to help people improve their health.
Yes, I find myself regularly saying that, way back, doctors knew that they had a privileged role in society and [many] acted accordingly in response to that, in the knowledge that a lot of their patients had little in the way of education. Now there are so many snotty, arrogant gits who seem to think? they're doing us a favour by turning up to work, paid for from the public purse. Gone are the days of honour and integrity - sad times. Worse than that, some patients in these times are as qualified as some docs, just in different fields. SMH.
I just know that I recall my Czechoslovakian/Hungarian? GP - from 0 - 18 y/o was amazing - maybe because he was foreign! I do think some had a more mild mannered attitude and demeanour compared to some of the bullish, hawkish horrors of today? Maybe I got lucky back then... now, eek!
Sadly arrogance is encouraged in medical schools in this country! Not that some medics need encouragement in that domain.
They were used to patients thinking “they know best”... Those times have gone (well nearly because some people still think that way) and patients are educated and aware plus the internet has been very useful. Doctors are still trying to hang on the belief patients respect them- whether they deserve it or not- and that they can fob off, ignore and/or push patients - especially older patients - into having treatments they don’t need or deny them treatments they need.
It’s high time doctors accept those days are gone! Patients will not be manipulated anymore and expect to be heard!
If it wasn't the lives of people, I'd say they're more to be pitied than scorned... so of course I don't!! I respond line by line to whoever it is when there are inaccuracies about me as an individual, or when they're just talking out of their... Not saying that this helps too much but I will not take garbage from these beggars... whole family of errors and a 'Family Health Tree of Horror'. Being mealy mouthed wouldn't help either, so speaking out is, for me, still worth doing; may not get me the health care I [now desperately] need, but at least I'm not walking around angry and livid... I say we all need to get it off our chests - calmly and in a reasoned way. xox
Your last sentence is spot on. Medical training curriculums is now all about what drug to prescribe for what symptom regardless of cause or even trying to find the cause. This can only result in Polypharmacy which results in deterioration of health, rather than improvement. Most drugs have toxic fillers in, cause a multitude of side effects, vitamin & mineral depletion which then means that our body deteriorates further. (Take for example the thyroid drug Levothyroxine . . . . in one brand there is Mannitol, an artificial sweetener. Why put that in a drug that is swallowed whole with water? When people learn the damage these things cause, they quickly cotton on, we really didnt have to become such a sick nation of people, there is another Agenda). )Too many times, people find Drs just spout the party line now and have become readers of bits of paper from labs whilst dismissing the patients symptoms. They set ranges so wide that ill people fall within 'normal ranges' so they can then blame everything on anxiety and depression which conveniently there is no test for. Whatever happened to learning about how the body works, there is more information in a beginners book about how the body works than Drs seem to know these days. The training now is all about drugs . . . . . remind me which drug cures a problem, I cant remember now . . . . oh thats right there aren't any.
Too right! Doctors' duties as existed in the past are non-existent. As you said, they've become puppets to Big Pharma companies. The more drugs - often unnnecessary - they push onto patients, the more bonuses and freebies they receive from companies. No need to establish an accurate diagnosis, just give parients more drugs that will eventually make them more ill, hence more drugs will be prescribed. It's abysmal and we are caught in this lack of care and ability of doctors to make an accurate diagnosis.
We have to be on our toes all the time when we often feel so ill and vulnerable. Patients who do research are a dreadful nuisance to doctors, naturally, because we're challenging them in making an effort to find out the real cause(s) and give us an adequate treatment. This is most worrying. What will happen in the future? I believe people's lifespan will be reduced because of such bad practice. It is already.
You sound like you have been on the receiving end of such treatment. I know i have been and if i hadnt woken up and learnt the truth after accessing medical records, I would be dead now. Sadly this is a common story. We are on our own if we want to have good health.
Indeed I have been and still on-going. Doing research, asking questions/challenging the crap they come out with.... requesting tests and referals.... It's exhausting. They expect us to give up and go and die in a corner, quietly, and not bother them. I believe my name is written in red, at the surgery, followed by an exlamation mark.
Thank god I see ones who appreciate that I keep myself informed s about my condition and really do seem to want to work in partnership with me perhaps all is not lost yet!
My lovely first doctor a kindly old Scot who wore half moon glasses and was adored by his patients, told me prior to antibiotics it was terrible being a doctor, they ushered in a miraculous era and doctors were able to help so many more of their patients where before they could do nothing against so many infections. It is all a moving target - more advances but more complication and costs. Hard to say if or when it was better. The principles of the NHS seem lost now so on that count it is not an improvement in my opinion.
I imagine treatment for hypothyroidism was better before the 60’s prior to reliance on TSH testing and T4 monotherapy when if you felt well on the medication you were deemed properly dosed. Not the pish we get now: labelled as difficult, barriers or even nutters, when the medication proves ineffective in relieving symptoms!
I read and enjoyed AJ Cronin's books back in the dark ages when I was a student!. Recently I watched a video in which Dr Toft referred to The Citadel and the influence it had on him.
My old, long gone copy has now been replaced by one that I managed to find a few weeks ago. I'm about to read it again!
So disappointing. At 65 years old, I fear that I am doomed to have to fight the medical profession and keep a tight control of my medication until the day I die (which I believe will be a whole lot later than if they had their way - and I have things to do with my life!!!!!)
Indeed, I have to fight all the time. Am writing letters to GP very often stating what needs to be done. She was not prepared to do anything to help me! An utter disgrace.
Ditto . . . . I am one who has to buy my own hormones that actually work rather than theirs that have me bedbound. All they do for me is an annual test where they promptly decide that i have now gone hyper because of supressed TSH and suggest Carbimazole . . . . . i give up. It is one of those situations where ego rules and most Drs think patients know nothing and they themselves know best! Whats more the subject is not up for discussion. Next please!
This makes me sick. "It is reasonable to aim for a higher TSH target in treated older hypothyroid patients as their thyroid hormone requirements may [my emphasis] be lower." They don't know, but they're going to push their selfish and poorly-educated opinions. Despite going on to say that "people over 65 years of age are spending more time in ill-health," they have no inclination to do anything to ameliorate patients' suffering.
I read a paper about people with huge longevity having higher TSH readings to the norm. But when you look at the actual values mentioned not one of the nonogenerians - sorry it I got that wrong it appears to be the nonogenerians offspring vs their partners, studied has values over 5 on the graphs, on the 24hr TSH tracking a value over 4 is not reached in the offspring but the values are higher than the partners but the difference is only quite marginal, not anything crazy like 10! It has been extrapolated from this that being hypothyroid leads to greater longevity which sounds like complete 💩 to me. Not sure if this study is scientifically rigorous would be interesting to know from the scientific boffins on here like diogenes if it means anything at all, but I shall put a link to it. Also we need much lower TSH values than the norm to get the extra T3 we can no longer make no longer make or just take it in addition to T4. Personally I have no desire to live to 90 if it means suffering symptoms of hypothyroidism - gone there, done that and I never ever want to visit that hideous place ever again - I am happy to die long before hitting 90 if it means experiencing a good quality of life. Stuff mimicking a naked mole rat!
The group put forward several ideas as to why this TSH elevation (which wasn't very big and didn't leave the healthy reference range in any cases, long-lived ones or their offspring) could occur. Sitting down and thinking about it, the aged ones would of course have married. It's very unlikely that both parents each could have had the long-lived TSH tendency. So the fact that the offspring also had this tendency means that it is genetically dominant over the normal response. Given that, you cannot then extrapolate to everyone else who doesn't possess this genetic factor but has slightly elevated TSH. By this I mean you can't then say that all old people with slightly elevated TSH are OK with that, because not all old people will have this tendency, but are merely lucky in having a better outcome of not yet having morbid diseases (heart etc). Other old people will be less lucky and suffer significant nonthyroidal illnesses which could slightly elevate their TSH whilst they have the problem. It all comes down to dealing with the individual in front of you, not through group-based decisions, but as a person whose unique presentation and history requires unique response.
Very interesting and thank you for your response demonstrating the flawed logic. It is interesting that their TSH was still pretty low - so much for TSH of 10 being the magic commence treatment number and I presume keeping it just under 10 being fine for old codgers like me!
BTW the Cambridge Dictionary describes a boffin as:
a scientist who is considered to know a lot about science and not to be interested in other things:
I'm afraid that doesn't fit me. Gardening, Donald Trump, Brexit, bemoaning the low quality of today's UK politicians, Wine, annoying other experts, classical music, esp JSB, are but a few of my many talents.
Ah JSB - my mother’s favourite she never forgave my dad for referring to it as toothbrush music whilst he did mock brushing of his teeth to all the arpeggios or whatever the correct term is for them. She said it ruined it for her and I can quite see why! I’m a bit of a Steve Reich nut myself.
Thank you for putting me straight about the meaning of boffin I never knew it was excellent attained in the area of scientific knowledge to the exclusion of all else. I did not have you down as a thyroid nerd thinking of nothing else but all matters pertaining to TSH - so my apologies for the misnomer. As for gardening I am an obsessive toiling as one by day and on my allotment every hour I can spare otherwise and I have never once been bored for even a second. As for the RHS 3 diploma - best thing I ever studied bar RHS 2! The botany has been helpful in understanding active transport in the body too, often mentioned in all those impenetrable thyroid papers I diligently plough through.
Brexit and Trump make my blood boil, they are interesting I agree but I’m happier sketching my dogs - I love art.
As the NICE draft says (and suspect the final doc will say!) 50% of SCH ‘might’ right itself, (was it within 6 months) Hence saying not to treat. Seem to be unable to see that the ‘might’ indicated that it might not. Plus the other 50% then won’t. I suspect most SCH is just early stages of Hypo. Would treating it not stop it deteriorating further, do they know what damage non-treatment leads to? I wonder how the decades of non, then poor thyroid treatment, further damaged my thyroid and adrenal function.
Trouble is by ignoring SCH as they do they are causing further health issues. Maybe that is what they want, especially with the older generations....population control, pension deficit control?? Maybe this is what that (C) Hunt meant when he tweeted that he wanted old people to die with dignity?
You just do an Osborne and steal their pensions by upping the retirement age and hope they work themselves to death in the meantime - that’s if they can find any work of course. I heard in Germany they have reduced retirement age as it proved uneconomic to have an aging population working till they drop. Pity men were not given the chance to retire at 60 to equalise things here.
Yes agrees. It is ill disguised theft. But seems governments above the law. I remember asking the question as to where are the jobs coming from to keep people in work till they are 67/8, whatever it is now, when there was not enough jobs at the time. And no doubt there will be no pension age at all by the time our children get there.
Not to mention the fact that with people being made more ill with poor symptom creating and treating, health care that more and more of us will die of so much younger. Population control.
I recall the late 70’s early 80’s, finishing school, all the talk about how women could have it all...the career, home, family etc. What they didn’t tell you was that yes, you could have all this, BUT, unless the attitude to women in general changed, unless they had a thoroughly ‘modern’ partner in tow, their health and mental state was likely to suffer. Then in the 80’s they were saying that the 90’s would be the decade of getting women back to work, how they were doing to ‘help’ them following childbirth. I had my kids in the 90’s. I asked to work part time, was told I’d have to do at least 4 days. (Yet a couple of months later, another girl who was the main breadwinner in her family, was allowed to go 3 days?? My hubby and a better paying job than I) Not much help reducing by a day. The ‘help' offered was a paltry sum towards nursery fees, but only for the term(s) following the Childs 4th birthday? So If your child was born Sept to Dec - you got two terms worth of help for childcare fees. If your child was born Jan to Easter, you got one terms worth of help, if your child was born after Easter they got no help. That was the extent of it. NO one got the ‘full’ benefit. Some got a little some got none. LIP SERVICE
Of course getting a nursery place to start with was no easy fete. Even though I had a reasonable job, when I had my second child I would have been working solely to pay for nursery fees. Plus thanks to Maggie T and Norman T telling people to get on their bikes and go find work, meant more and more people travelling longer and further for jobs. Hubby worked long hours at the time, out form 5.30 am to 7pm which meant everything left to me. Strangely enough it was around this time they started treating me for Hypo. At least a decade late!
That was they help we women got. I’m guessing is more than available now.
Again though, encouraging women into work, but not putting money into creating jobs. Any jobs created all seem to be in London, more and more people travelling. It was never going to work. Same as this raising the retirement age. These governments have created a monster they can no longer control.
I totally agree with you. I never had children and it has been hard enough for me without offspring - how on earth mothers cope with such exhorbitant child care costs and blatant discrimination at work especially as the public sector has been shrunk (not to say they were perfect of course but there was some effort to accommodate working mothers’ needs) plus the career breaks messing up pensions, I really don’t know. It speaks volumes about how backward this country really is, whilst pretending to be enlightened. Small wonder we are going to the dogs - not investing in everyone is asking for trouble and believing the important responsibility of rearing the next generation has zero value says it all.
I’ve always thought that the future of any civilisation or community is in the education and health of it’s population. Get these right and everything else should fit into place. These two areas have been neglected and undermined by one government after another. Both are being used by governments as political punchbags, to boost their popularity stakes, possibly hiding some financial corruption, nothing else. In doing so they move the goalposts back and forth so that the statistics show what they want them to. A bit like the researchers Furface They are not asking the questions because they are more often than not disinterested. Research depends on who is paying and what outcome they are paying for. Have you read Seamus O’Mahony’s Can Medicine be Cured? Worth a read. Don’t agree with his take on the lack of modern environment caused illness, think he is bypassing the poisons in chemicals and radiation that surrounds us all now, but other than that a good account of the flaws of research. Largely pointless, most research ends with a recommendation for further research to collaborate findings, which as we know rarely if ever happens. The set up and procedure to promote and accept research is so corrupt and so engrained into the profession, it is going to take some shift to change it.
How much is pension deficit colouring decisions? Depopulation about sums it up. I’ve said it before, we, thyroidites are easy targets as we will never die from hypothyroidism, rather one of the resulting conditions, our poor thyroid treatment will never be questioned when early death results. And as largely women who can be ignored for the earlier decades of our lives, our symptoms blamed on periods and hormones, and not diagnosed until middle age, - menopause, blame lack of periods and hormones! Not wishing hypo on anyone but we need more men with Hypo to stand up and shout.
BP funding big companies and governments? directing funding directing governments? GSK buying into 23andMe, was that to direct funding away from any thyroid related research or interests? Bearing in mind that 5 months after 23 stopped genotyping the DIO2 gene, GSK announced their buy in. All very suspect in my view.
JGBH Corruption to the core. How do we stop the rot. Rot that has been engrained for centuries.
You pose some very astute questions that only intelligent people would ask so why are the researchers not asking these questions?!!!! Because it isnt about helping people have a better quality of life, it is just about being 'seen to help' whilst not 'actually' helping and indeed, making people sicker. That is what is happening. Depopulation 2030? Healthy People 2020 (not many know what thats about)? Very little these days is what it seems to be. The world has gone mad and those in power have far too much power, no morals, no compassion and can be bought for the right price). Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
There again, what astute remarks you make. We're doomed, it seems. Of course power is what it's all about.... and utter corruption. No moral compass and hardly any compassion. A crazy desperate world.
My wonderful GP is retiring . I asked him if I will get the same support I currently enjoy. He informed me that a colleague, who is older than himself, would be my best bet (possibly)!
The others, all younger, although good doctors ( his opinion) go by numbers and sadly feels they won’t assist with facilitating T3 for me to buy from Germany
, No even counting brexit as a problem,!
What a future to look towards 😢
What is hard to understand about taking a naturally produced hormone and feeling and obviously being so much better?
I don’t understand why these retiring GP’s cannot pass on their patients and routines as they are to a younger GP to continue. Is there no continuance contingencies in place for surgeries? There should be, GP’s come and go, retire more on. There should be handovers, not just dropping patients and their treatments being turned upside down. To me this should be basic procedure?
The deterioration in GP training, to avoid any T3 or NDT knowledge, in my view is deliberate. If GP’s are not trained in T3/NDT, as we know they aren’t anymore, they will be less inclined to issue it. Less likely to take the responsibility to go against the CCG. The question being - if so, why go to all that trouble to put GP’s on the back foot? What is so important about T3 that they want to rid it from the market no matter what? Cost is a red herring. There is more to this. More to do with knowledge of benefit. Hence the constant brick walling of all information and thinking that goes against the current anti t3, in any form, regime.
Yes my gp said it is all documented, to continue with care but I don’t feel very hopeful as on a few occasions mentioned to others in the practice and I get to usual rubbish that they spout.
My cholesterol has come down , my diabetes 11 has improved loads.
This being clear proof. Subjectively I can add loads more to that.
I feel I have a quality of life to enjoy now, after a very very long time!!
Why ? I can’t think of any reason . It is always the question in my mind never finding an answer that makes any sense. Apart fr9m the cost, of course.
My personal theory is that cost is a red herring. -something that explains the actions to remove, keeps us all focused in that direction, whilst the real reasons is being buried deep out of view. Benefit. The benefit of T3 was the ‘other’ part of the consultation to remove it from prescribing. i.e the ‘lack of evidence of benefit’ This after it had been systematically withdrawn from patients for at least two years. Removing as much ‘evidence of benefit’ as they could get away with prior to the consultation. From something Sir B Keogh (then NMD) said in one of the board meetings, it sounded like they released the consultation early - probably because there was such an uproar building about it and about T3 in particular. The report from this consultation was reported to the board by Sr Keogh, with false information - he calls t3 levy, at one point and then says it is just an expensive version of T4. Of course he retires out of that position a month later, Powis who took over called it a slight error of language!!! NO retraction no correction ever logged.
They have and continue to falsify info to suit and ignore anyone who says anything else.
In my opinion this was never about cost. It is the Gov/NHS who could have and should have stopped the price hiking. They did not they did not question the prices...why?
Why were the NHS at the Face to Face meetings telling us that it was all about the cost, if it wasn’t for the cost T3 would not be on the list. So why did they not do something about the cost? They were drawing our attention away from the ‘benefit’
We know T3 is vital. We know that low T3 leads to heart conditions, diabetes, mental health issues, infertility etc. As it is needed by almost every part of the body, it is not rocket science to assume that low T3 can impact on many conditions. My thinking is that the BP do not want the benefits of T3 known, they want to treat symptoms, the more the merrier, the more the profit, not eradicate the cause of these symptoms, which good T3 levels might just do.
A second possible favourite theory of mine is the possibility of a ‘cartel’ type set up, developing a combination pill or other T3, wanting all other T3 off the market before it is released so that their's is the only option, bit like what seems to happen in the early 60’s when they were promoting T4 over NDT and trying to sabotage NDT?
My quality of life changed when I got T3, 9 years ago. For the first time in living memory I started to feel human. I was almost 50. The trouble is when you re living with such a condition and no one is helping you you think that is as good as it gets. You get sucked into thinking there is nothing to help. And eventually just accept your lot and plod along. It is deterioration or chance that leads us to realise that there are other options. We trust in our Dr’s. We don’ t realise that they have agendas. TG for the internet and forums and other social media!
They may think they are being 'scientists' but they really aren't - scientists need to understand statistics and they need to understand logic. The basic mistake being made constantly is failing to follow the law of the excluded middle - the first known statement is by Aristotle but it is probably best known in literature through the works of Charles Dodgson - writing as Lewis Caroll - eg Alice in Wonderland and Alice through the looking glass.
The logical mistake is assuming that an average applies to all individuals. It never has done and it never will do. Eg most people with TSH of x are okay, Y has a TSH of x therefore Y is okay.
Some doctors know what they are doing, Y is a doctor so Y knows what they are doing.
on the other hand
Some doctors don't know what they are doing, Y is a doctor so they don't know what they are doing.
None of the three statements above is logically true.
Great explanation! Doctors like to think they are scientists... but they're pseudo scientists. They, in fact, know and undesrtand very little and do not show any desire to change the status quo.
Also real scientists accept that knowledge is only as good as what we know at that point. By putting heads in sand and pretending new knowledge does not exist is not scientific.
These researchers and medics are like lemmings heading for the cliff. Already the GP’s role is diminished beyond all recognition. They are box tickers only. Researchers are just puppets to promote the BP projects and profit making. At some point all this has to implode.
We presented easy to understand figures to illustrate the problem, which most laypersons have not difficulty to understand, but they are not bothered or interested.
I think many of the big shots have junior staff write something up and they just put their name on the paper.
By this he meant our papers demonstrate the fallacy of their work, but they ignore it.
There’s something radically wrong with the medical profession! Could it be their egos getting in the way of the thinking process? However, that leaves us without any decent help and support.
Sounds like the government, thinking of the DOH - when JH was in charge, no doubt nothing has changed, but stock response letters, stating the same often out of date info, with a stamped signature?
JGBH Yes egos a major factor. All vying for recognition and prestige -
The new research centre that NHS money has gone into, with the intention that it is the best in the world, is more important that actually helping the population.
Hoermann’s comments sum it up they are not bothered, not interested. Or is it that they they know exactly what they are doing and just don’t want to change the status quo because it pays them to keep it?
Hi Ursula, am afraid the NHS is certainly not the best medical service in the world! The idea of “helping “ everyone is wonderful but doesn’t impart it is the BEST in the world. So another delusion and what a waste of money by NHS England research centre! Amazing how they are always short of money when it comes to looking after patients but there’s always plenty for such fanciful ego-massaging projects! Totally agree with you. Hoerman has seen through this very clearly!
I believe doctors don’t want to make any changes because it would definitely upset the easy status quo... it would mean a huge change in attitude and more intelligent ways of practicing medicine.... they’re not prepared to do that! Why should they? They are already very well paid and sadly they still enjoy too much prestige, so no need to change the good old ways?
I also believe they follow instructions from the government, not in favour of patients especially the older generation and those with complex health problems.
JGBH It is the research centre that they are hoping will be the best n the world not the NHS. Sadly! As you say - rather than offering decent treatment to us. Like May - CBD oil - ok for his company to grow, make and export, whilst not ok for UK citizens to have??? ££££ and prestige what matters to too many!
I do think that Dr’s and Gp’s in particular are losing their grip on their own autonomy and will live to regret it. They are not stranding up for their right to prescribe as they see fit. Giving into NHS/CCG authority, think it is easier, not realising long term impact. They lose their rights! Becoming tick box GP’s that monkeys can probably be trained to do - especially if AI is set up to input thyroid symptoms ....log symptoms....issue test TSH only....=0-10 send patient away/>10 issue T4 only. Done. Go back to input next patient ....
Ursula, agree with you. I often wonder why they are called “doctors “ when in fact they are unable to make a diagnosis. They have become pill pushers: antidepressants , statins etc.
Because I have had to fight for everything for so long I have lost all respect for these people and have become totally cynical. How can one not become so when feeling so alone in trying to get help in order to recover some health and quality of life. x
Yes totally understand JGBH No wonder that so many feel abandoned.
I do have a modicum of sympathy left for GP’s, not sure it will last much longer, but the younger ones are not being properly trained. So could argue not their fault. They don’t have ‘opportunity’ to learn on the job when CCG so controlling and labs can over rule their requests for bloods, but still don’t understand why they can’t see that they are being undermined and held back?
Agree again when you say young medical students are not properly trained, they’re thrown in at the deep end. Unfortunately they’re playing Russian roulette with our lives. I too do wonder why GPs don’t stand up to the CCGs. Mine seems petrified by the local CCG! Not sure what is happening but it’s not a positive attitude and I fear the care of patients will become worse over time.
Does Rudolph know how much we appreciate that a real consultant endocrinologist speaks as he does?
It is obviously very disappointing that those words are needed, but without him and a handful of others, the current state would inevitably continue. With his words, there is at least some hope.
We need more like minded Endos to group together, as we patients are doing, to be heard. There is safety in numbers. If enough stood up and spoke together surely they could not ostracise them all.
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TSH is just the 'opinion' of your Pituitary about your dose ~ but your Pituitary's 'opinion' is a bit warped once you take Thyroid Hormone.
