was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid/hashimotos over 3 years ago. I was prescribed Levothyroxine by my GP. I continued to put more weight on, it caused swollen ankles, water retention, itching etc.
A year later I switched to ndt & lost 2.5 stone. After being on ndt for a few months, I started putting weight on & my symptoms started returning. I suspected reverse T3.
I then switched to cytomel only. I experimented with different doses. Eventually I settled at 50mcg a day. I was doing really well on this dose until the suppliers I ordered from stopped manufacturing it for a few months.
I started taking it again 2 weeks ago. I take 75mcg in one dose in the morning. I’m putting a pound on nearly every day. Should I keep increasing slowly ? I know this sounds a bit silly but I really believe when my levels are right, my weight should stabilise which it isn’t at the moment.
I go to the gym 4-5 x a week too. I do a mixture of classes cardio & weights but I can’t lose a single pound. Any advice please
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Hippyhappy234
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I have gained a lot of weight on NDT. In the past year, I have gained +/- 25 kilograms. I gained more than 10 kgs while on high doses of cortisone for six weeks in Sept-Oct '18, but the weight gain has continued ever since and no amount of NDT seems to make any difference...quite on the contrary. The other day, I found this article by Barbara S. Lougheed who went back on T4 and only takes a tiny amount of NDT with it:
It makes sense to me...I have been diagnosed with insulin resistance, been offered Metformin (Glucophage) and also Saxenda, but I prefer to try natural alternatives first (Berberine, Gymnema Sylvestre). But one thing is certain: during the time I've been on high doses (as much as 5-6 grains daily) of NDT, I have managed to put on an incredible amount of weight. So, to me, T3 is no wonder drug, and I am beginning to suspect it has messed my metabolism up more than anything...
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I should add that my latest labs showed FT3 levels out of range 12h after latest dose (at the time on 4 grains daily):
FT3 5.5 (ref 1.7-3.7)
FT4 1.1 (ref 0.7-1.5)
TSH <0.01 (ref 0.2-4.4)
Although technically hyperthyroid (suppressed TSH, out-of-range FT3 levels) I gained weight and still am.
Because you take NDT within it is T4 which converts to T3 and also contains T3 too. So cannot be compared with T4 alone.
Blood tests were introduced along with levothyroxine alone. Therefore if we add T3 or take NDT the results don't correlate. It is all about how 'we', the patient feels, which is the best guide. Maybe this link will be helpful and the doctor who posted it would never prescribe levo and he only took one blood test for the initial diagnosis and thereafter small increments of thyroid hormones were added very gradually till all symptoms were resolved. Of course, vitamins/minerals also need to be optimal.
Some people have something called 'thyroid hormone resistance' in that case T3 alone would be prescribed in higher doses than normal in order to saturate the T3 receptor cell. We mustn't think we are Resistant when maybe we're not. Dr Lowe was also a scientist as well as a Researcher.
If you aren't optimally dosed with thyroid hormones, when you exercise i.e.
classes cardio & weights
you may actually be reducing your dose unwittingly which may mean gaining weight.
RT3 isn't problematic and this is an excerpt. I don't have the link:-
"This is an excerpt:
"Dr. Lowe: Some readers will not be familiar with reverse-T3, and I know from experience that many others harbor misconceptions about the molecule. Because of this, I have summarized in the box below what we know about reverse-T3. I've answered your question below the summary.
Conversion of T4 to T3 and Reverse-T3:
A Summary
The thyroid gland secretes mostly T4 and very little T3. Most of the T3 that drives cell metabolism is produced by action of the enzyme named 5'-deiodinase, which converts T4 to T3. (We pronounce the "5'-" as "five-prime.")
Without this conversion of T4 to T3, cells have too little T3 to maintain normal metabolism; metabolism then slows down. T3, therefore, is the metabolically active thyroid hormone. For the most part, T4 is metabolically inactive. T4 "drives" metabolism only after the deiodinase enzyme converts it to T3.
Another enzyme called 5-deiodinase continually converts some T4 to reverse-T3. Reverse-T3 does not stimulate metabolism. It is produced as a way to help clear some T4 from the body.
Under normal conditions, cells continually convert about 40% of T4 to T3. They convert about 60% of T4 to reverse-T3. Hour-by-hour, conversion of T4 continues with slight shifts in the percentage of T4 converted to T3 and reverse-T3. Under normal conditions, the body eliminates reverse-T3 rapidly. Other enzymes quickly convert reverse-T3 to T2 and T2 to T1, and the body eliminates these molecules within roughly 24-hours. (The process of deiodination in the body is a bit more complicated than I can explain in this short summary.) The point is that the process of deiodination is dynamic and constantly changing, depending on the body's needs."
The above was by Dr John Lowe who was an Adviser to TUK before his untimely death.
Thanks for posting this, Shaws, very interesting info indeed!
There are a few US alternative practitioners (DO Westin Childs is the one that comes to mind right now) advocating the use of T3 (added to a reduced dose of NDT) to "clear" the body of excess rT3. I tried this approach (self-diagnosing and self-medicating, I might add) and felt HORRIBLE...absolutely awful. I would not recommend this approach to anyone!!!
What I am trying to say is that some proponents of NDT/T3 seem to consider rT3 a huge problem, and I think it's important not to make the same mistake I did and just assume you have an rT3 dominance problem...what Dr. Lowe said makes a lot of sense to me.
Doctor Lowe was an expert on T3 as he found through his research as a young man and his desire to restore people to good health rather than wallowing in clinical symptoms with people being given other prescriptions for the symptoms rather than a decent dose of thyroid hormones. He'd never prescribe levo as he stated it was through corruption/payments to doctors endocrinologist that it became the No.1 prescription and made millions of $ for Big Pharma plus the 'extras' for remaining symptoms. Thankfully we can still source NDTs.
But didn't Dr. Lowe advocate the use of T3 only; I seem to recall he took T3 only himself in very high doses (+/- 150 mcg of T3)...? But I know he formulated Thyrogold for people who could not get NDT prescribed so maybe he would work with NDT as well? Anyway, it's a shame he is no longer with us.
Just wanted to add “Dr” Westin Childs is a con artist. He is not who he says he is. So if his recommendation does not pan out then it does not surprise me.
Very interesting, thanks for your input! I have been having my doubts, especially since he is promoting his own supplements...I always distrust ‘doctors’ like that...!
Lol. They are not even his supplements. He didn’t formulate any of them. He claims he did, although has recently changed the wording on his website to he “curates” them. They are Xymogen labs supplements with his label on them. Very untrustworthy.
Another reason not to self-treat the way I did with extra T3 added to NDT...it seems I more or less poisoned myself with an overdose of thyroid hormone, mainly T3.
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@Shaws You have saved me from some possible research. I have read Stop the Thyroid Madness book (STTM) and Janie (author) has an incredible Facebook group and Yahoo Group with wonderful support but they also advocate treating reverse T3 first before NDT or reducing your NDT to 1.5grains and starting T3. I also /scanned/read Paul Robinson's books recoveringwitht3.com/. My next read was going to be Google to find doctors like Dr. Lowe. I always like to research both sides before starting a protocol or treatment. I am sorry that T3 did not work for you. Are you just taking NDT now?
There are still some doctors who treat the 'patients' and not a blood test. This is another doctor and it isn't surprising that he can take no more patients.
I take NDT only now. I developed horrible hyper symptoms on NDT + T3. Maybe I did not have an rT3 problem to begin with (assuming there is such a thing as rT3 dominance; according to Dr. Christianson's article, there isn't...).
Lately, I have been considering various options: going back on T4 only (which I'd hesitate to do as I spent ten years on it and never got symptom-free) or lower NDT and take mainly T4 and a little NDT. But I imagine that finding the right balance between the two would require quite a lot of time and patience...!
I did well on quite high doses of NDT (Thyroid-S) for years, and always took the whole dose in the morning without problems. I also managed to lose weight for the first time in over a decade.
But lately, I have been wondering if NDT contains too much T3 for me, and not enough T4...I have been hesitant to add T4 to NDT so far because of the fear of developing rT3 dominance. But there does not seem to be consensus among doctors that rT3 dominance exists, let alone is a problem...!
One option could be multi dosing NDT to see if I feel better when taking smaller doses of T3 at a time.
I am currently considering all my options.
I tend to get this slightly schizophrenic feeling when reading various thyroid blogs. US doctor of osteopathy Dr. Childs (restartmed.com) claims that insulin resistance increases the need for T3. Another blog by Barbara S. Lougheed (tiredthyroid.com, who is not a doctor but a patient who needs mostly T4 and only a tiny amount of NDT) claims that T3 increases the risk of insulin resistance. I don't know whom or what to believe?!?!?
I think T3 can increase blood sugar, but I haven't seen any studies that say it increases insulin resistance. If you eat low carb that shouldn't be a problem
@thecat68 First, I am with you on the schizophrenic feeling reading various sites. Have you ever explored the fillers in various NDT, T3, and thyroid supplements? I belong to a Yahoo group with about 25,000 users and have seen this subject brought up many times. The name of the group is "Natural Thyroid Hormone Users." The links below which are updated have the ingredients and fillers of NDT, T3, and OTC. I am terrified to even think about this subject because I take so many supplements that have various fillers especially (microcrystalline cellulose) and that I could be making myself sicker! I did start to research fillers about a year ago and came across a study from 2017 in regard to microcrystalline cellulose. WHO and the European commission feel that it is safe for consumption but most of the studies were less than a year and I could not find any studies on how safe MC is if you have leaky gut. I do not want to get off topic but there are folks out there who have problems with these fillers in NDT.
T4 is inactive. It has to convert to T3 - Active hormone. Dr Lowe would never suggest splitting doses. He said the purpose of T3 is to saturate all of the millions of T3 receptor cells and then its work begins by 'sending out waves' for between one to three days. I can vouch for it lasting longer than one day when I've had to miss a dose for one reason or another.
What is interesting is the other article by Dr. Dommisse(?), posted by you I think, where is says NDT/T3 must be taken in split doses as T3 only has a half-life of 8-12 hours. Again that slightly schizophrenic feeling because two doctors prescribing T3 contradict each other...! I seem to recall Dr. Lowe claimed T3 should be taken once daily so it could saturate the cells...?
What I like about Dr. Dommises’s article (sorry, cannot seem to find it right now) is that it says good levels of T4 are also important when taking T3. I know that is not true for everyone, but I have never agreed with the statement ‘as long as your T3 levels are good T4 doesn’t matter’.
Different doctors have different ideas. One of our Advisers (now deceased) was a researcher as well as scientist. I know some doctors have different views but Dr Lowe was an 'expert' on T3 and he stated that it had to be taken in one daily dose so that the T3 'saturated' all of the T3 receptor cells and it then sent out 'waves' for between one to three days.
I’m interested in this too! Cytomel made me ravenously hungry, so I gained on it as well. Haven’t tried NDT yet, but had been on 50 mcg Levothyroxine and 20 mcg Cytomel. Dropped the Cytomel as an experiment to see if it was causing my ravenous appetite and it helped a lot. I know that’s not the experience of most though—seems many more feel better and LOSE weight on T3! The individuality of our bodies just fascinates me! There are a few posts out there on T3 increasing appetite (and weight) for some, so I guess it is a real side effect for a few of us!
Ha! Doctors crack me up sometimes. Even the official Cytomel insert warns of “increased appetite,” which I assume would naturally lead to weight gain in some (like us!). We’re not crazy—just maybe outliers.
I must admit if anyone is gaining when thyroid hormones are supposed to raise our metabolism it must be so frustrating to say the least. I don't take a particularly high dose.
Well, the more I read about endocrinology, the more I think a holistic approach is required to balance out all hormones and their interactions - and reference ranges do not help, sometimes I think focusing on one hormone and ignoring the others is a bit like trying to fix a leaking roof by moving tiles from one side to another...
Dr Lowe only took one blood test for the initial diagnosis and thereafter all concentration was relieving symptoms and that vits/minerals were also optimal.
We'd feel much better I think if endos or doctors were concerned about relieving our symptoms rather than adjusting doses according to the TSH
I have most definitely gained lots of weight on T3(NDT). I stopped taking it 48 hrs ago, now feel much less hungry + intense itching all over my body incl scalp all but gone. Will go back on T4 only for a while and see how I feel...I already feel better, no racing heart, clammy skin or agitation. I have no idea how I will feel longterm but, right now, I feel better than I have in a long time after two days off NDT...
NDT is made from animals' thyroid glands and contains all of the hormones a healthy gland would have, i.e. T4, T3, T2, T1 and calcitonin (calcitonin helps bones).
Levothyroxine just makes me very, very unwell. So we are all so different in what improves our health and it is trial and error. Unfortunately we don't get the chance to trial different options.
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I just realised the symptoms of estrogen dominance are weight gain esp in the midsection, bloating, inability to lose weight despite diet and exercise, heat intolerance, swollen, tender breasts, hair loss, and restless sleep. All which I have but attributed to excess T3.
I read that synthetic progesterone suppresses your own progesterone production and leads to estrogen dominance (which dies NOT equal out of range estrogen levels but too much estrogen in relation to
Progesterone).
My weight gain started last summer. Since July ‘18 I have gained 20 kilograms and increased one bra size. Hardly any of my clothes fit anymore. July ‘18 was also when I was put on synthetic progesterone (Duphaston) after two ovarian cysts were discovered.
So I’d advise everyone taking sex hormones (for menopause, birth control...) to consider estrogen dominance if you start putting on a lot of weight rapidly without lifestyle changes and especially if you’ve been doing well on NDT/T3 for years. It seems most women over 35 are estrogen dominant as progesterone levels decline much more rapidly, and could benefit from natural (bioidentical) progesterone supplementation. I will see what happens when I go off the Duphaston.
The Late Great Dr Blanchard advocated T3 BUT in Very Low Dose . His suggestion was 98 percent T4 and 2 percent T3 . For many this makes so much sense . His book *Functional Approach * he explains why patients do so well with very low dose T3 with their T4 dose .
Thank you!! I think this is what works for me so it’s great to read there is someone who advocates this. Just ordered the book and can’t wait to read more about it.
His theories are interesting, but I notice he does not advocate the use of NDT over synthetic T3, so I guess he does not find calcitonin or T2 important. Also, 2,25 mcg of T3 daily would require optimal T4 to T3 conversion, right?
Last year when I finally got the balance of my T4 and T3(Tiromel) right, I lost about 2 stones over about 6 months and felt great. Since then I had a GP alter my T4 dose down and down but eventually saw the right GP who increased my dose (long story short). SUo, I'm now getting the levels of T4 and T3 back up to where they were, but I too am putting on weight, appetite increase and feel itchy. I'm so glad to read about this happening with others (in a good way, you know what I mean!).
I'm getting more bloods done at the surgery on Thursday and will be buying a Medichecks pack too (hopefully they're reduced on Thursday). I get tested for TSH, free T4 and total T3 so I need to get the free T3 done privately so I have a better idea what's going on.
I'm intrigued to read about testing for SHGB - do you think this would help to understand my weight increase and appetite increase? I'm in the dark current about my free T3 levels as GP only does total T3.
I'm so frustrated that I lost weight on the combination a year ago and now am gaining weight and feel uncomfortable.
Well, he got his degree in life sciences in the biology dept of BYU. Not necessarily a “biology” degree. He applied to SFU but did not attend. He started at BYU in 2009 and has since then in the last ten years managed to get a bachelors degree, a doctorate, a medical residency, Osteopathic training from two other facilities and treated over 1000 thyroid patients in his own clinic which he decided to close and has decided to focus on his supplement formulations and online content. That’s a whole lot to accomplish in 10 years for such a young person. (timeline doesn’t add up). He also claims to formulate all of his own supplements on his website but they are actually Xymogen labs supplements. He hasn’t formulated any. As far as his training????? That was a dead end search for me. A lot of the things he claims on videos and in the actually writing on his website conflict. I don’t believe anything he is saying on the vids is new, cutting edge information. You can find it all from Doctors like Kris Kresser. I spoke with Xymogen labs and they spoke with him about claiming their formulations. He has within the last few days changed his wording like I said.
I wish he’d elaborate more on some of the claims he makes, for instance that people with insulin and/or Leptin resistance need more T3 as these conditions create ‘pathways for more reverse T3’ (from his website). If that were true, why don’t more doctors write about this; after all, it’s quite spectacular information...?
Yes I agree. I am suspicious that this information is not even original to him and that he learned it off the internet if you will. I am going to do some cross referencing to see if they can be found via other legitimate websites.
Great, thanks for taking the time! At first, I believed the info on his website to be legit, but then I started wondering when I saw all those pics of patients who lost tons of weight taking T3 and diabetes meds...I hope others will be more careful than I was and not just start self-diagnosising and self-treating solely based on info on his website...! Granted, it’s not his fault I was stupid, but when you’re desperate to lose weight or feel better or whatever, it’s easy to listen to people like him who seem to have all the answers...
I’m sure I will...but there are many charlatans willing to take advantage of sick people so some caution is warranted...I’m especially wary of this ‘just take my supplements and you’ll be fine’ approach...!
Hi there , I suffer with what I call hipothyroidism , 20 years. 🙄 I've taken every mono, combo, NDT, and now T3 only replacement. I can swell up over night and not recognise myself in the mirror next morning. It's so upsetting. I don't weigh myself anymore , if my clothes fit they fit. If not that says it all. The way I manage this fluid/ myx is by having no carbs and absolutely no sugar no alcohol no gluten. This eliminates the fluid right down for me. It is worth it. I eat fatty meats and butter cream plenty of low carb veggies and salads, berries and certain fruits. I eat really well. No caffeine. I will not put any crappy foods near my guts because I'll be a blimp the next day. I get all my vitamins and minerals. I only walk for exercise. I keep my ft3 towards upper end of range. This all helps. One other thing I do that helps my lymphatic system to remove fluids is dry skin brushing. I brush all over my body upwards. I had congestion of my lymphatic system down each side of my torso that was tender and it was very effective at eliminating this. I do it as often as I can.Hope you get a handle on it soon. Xx
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Weight gain on T3
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