After trying T4 and T3 only. I have been taking Compounded Pigs thyroid in the following increments:
7/9/18 90mg
29/9/18 102mg
19/10/18 120mg
My results as at 8/11/18 as follows:
TSH 0.14 ( 0.3-4.0) COULD I BE LOWER?
T4 10.6 ( 9.0-19.0) IS THIS TOO LOW?
T3 7.8 ( 2.6-6.0) IS THIS TOO HIGH?
It took some time, tweaking and patience but I am slowly moving towards good health. I was surprised to see my results though. I have learnt from you that it's about how you feel. I feel sooo much better energy wise. However, brain fog still accumulates at times and I still have some muscle weakness and that awful shaking inside feeling.
I have been on 120mgs for 4 weeks. Do I need a further tweak?
I have also been using Holy Basil for high cortisol during the day with much success.
Thanks as always.
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Sally56
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Is it prescribed as "thyroid extract"? That's what I get and what I understand as NDT, so outside of Australian contexts I just say NDT. It's desiccated porcine thyroid usually, which is put into appropriate doses by our compounding pharmacies here.
We have seen the whole spectrum of compounding pharmacists claiming to produce products only out of desiccated thyroid powder (Thyroid USP) to it being simply synthetic in the same ratio. At one level, OK, but not if the patient doesn't get clearly informed.
If someone take's NDT and feeling well with relief of all symptoms they're on the correct dose. If still having some symptoms, you can increase the dose by 1/4 tablet every 2 weeks until you feel well. Always take note of temp and pulse and if either goes too high, drop to previous dose.
One of our Advisers only took one blood test - for the initital diagnosis, afterwards relief of symptoms were the priority and I shall give you some of his links:-
Sally56 I don't know whether your meds being individually compounded is simply the porcine thyroid being dessiccated and made into tablet form in the normal way of NDTs, or whether it's hormonal content is in anyway manipulated to alter the ratio of T4:T3 (I can't see the purpose of individual compounding otherwise). But assuming it's provided in the same ratio as it existed in the pig, then it may be the case that that ratio, differing as it does from humans', isn't perfect for you, and hence why you have the extremes of T3/T4. It's to be expected that FT4 will be lowered when adding in T3 either directly or in NDT; but if you were to reduce your dose in order to bring your FT3 within range, it's likely your FT4 will drop lower. That can be fine for some, who tend to react more directly to T3, but won't be fine for others. If it's a problem for you, you could manipulate the ratios of T3:T4 by adding in some synthetic T4.
My understanding, (I live in Aus and get my NDT from a compounding pharmacy) is that it is usually porcine thyroid, Armour I believe. It is the ingredient in Armour, not armour tablets as such and the pharmacist doses it up accordingly.
Hidden I'm not sure I understand what you've written. Are you saying that all Australian compounders of desiccated thyroid gland use as their active ingredient, a product sourced from the makers of Armour?
I rather think so, yes. I have been told there is only one supplier to all compounding pharmacies in the country, and separately that it is the Armour active ingredient. Now whether that just means "NDT" rather than specifically Armour, I can't say. But they get NDT powder, and measure it out for individual people. I take one 1.75 grain capsule and one 0.66 grain capsule daily, which are awkward doses if I had to get them from a tablet!
• in reply to
Yes, I've just found something that states it's the same powder as Armour.
Ah that's interesting, thank you for clarifying. So, capsules rather than tablets - do they also contain inactive bulking excipients and if so are you able to chose your own preferred ingredients?
Yes, and I have heard of people requesting specific ingredients. I've never had an issue with the fillers used so it's not something I've pursued, myself. If it isn't broken and all that. Capsules are great as the dose can really be fine tuned.
One factor is that some variations will be ironed out by creating dessicated thyroid powder from thousands of pigs' thyroids at a time. So even if some of the pigs were hyperthyroid or hypothyroid the dessicated thyroid powder can still be used.
What I find funny is that, based on some conversations reported on this forum, some doctors clearly believe that companies making NDT take the thyroid from one pig, make NDT, then move on to the next pig, make some more NDT etc, thus creating lots of variability in the potency of the resulting NDT.
I think the resulting dessicated powder is tested and synthetic T4 or T3 is added to make the desired potency.
One comment I just wanted to make regarding your high Free T3... If T3 levels are too high then that may cause brain fog.
A test I did earlier this year showed levels of Free T3 that were over the reference range. I was convinced I was under-medicated not over-medicated because of the brain fog, but reluctantly I reduced my T3. I fully expected to suffer dreadful hypothyroid symptoms again. But hey presto! My brain fog reduced.
Personally I would not be happy with an over range T3 especially as you are having some shaking which could be a symptom of overmedication. Too high T3 could put you at risk of osteoporosis or heart problems.
As another poster has said I would reduce and monitor how you feel. Perhaps considering adding in some synthetic T4 as your T4 is very low and see how you feel then. From reading other posts some people seem to feel better with higher T4 but some people feel better on T3 only and a very low T4.
I am not a medical professional and the above is from reading of posts in this forum and my own research.
NDT comes from compounding pharmacies in Australia. It's the same as Armour, as far as a I know, except that we can get a very fine control in dose as the compounding pharmacist makes it up individually in capsules.
It came up recently in on this forum, that actually the amounts are manipulated by adding additional synthetic hormones to get the precise amounts. I'm sorry, I don't recall who started the thread or what the detail was.
Ah well, who knows. I'll see if I can find the thread. Some people were horrified by the possible addition of synthetics, it didn't bother me overly as I've taken a combination in the past and it seems a pragmatic solution. I will see I can find the thread.
LOL. I think it's probably true that most patients in general take levo and get on with it. I'm not convinced they're all 100% well though. I'm not bothered as I've been quite well on NDT, so it is working for me. I've also taken a combo of NDT and levo, so I'm not philosophically opposed to it.
A nice robust conversation about my referral to PIGS THYROID. On the label is says Thyroid Tissue Extract 120mg. My Endo calls it Pigs thyroid. It is compounded to the individual need of the patient.
I had a TT in Feb2017 and have used Levo and T3 only, which did not work out for me. But NDT is helping me regain my health again.
ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS: I took my meds at 5.30am and had the test at 9.30am. I erred due to work circumstances. My Endo told me to do the test at 2.30pm and I know the forum here endorse taking the morning meds after the test. So maybe the T3 was not accurately indicative of my levels. I shall do a other test next week.
MY T4 is low and my TSH could be suppressed more. I am confused about whether the shaking inside (which I've had since Feb 2017) is T3. T3 was bad for me, (I ended up in hospital, sad because before the crash I felt invincible on T3. I have had to mend my adrenals, by having regular saliva tests and using Holy Basil. I did try cortisone for a month but I was too sick to know if it helped.
Should my TSH be suppressed further? I am confused as to whether I am under or over medicated. I feel good, except for the fog, weakness and shaking thing. Honestly even with these remaining symptoms, I'm the best I've felt in ages.
I shall raise 15mgs (small safe dose) if this helps, I'll keep going higher every 2 weeks until I have no symptoms.
I shall have another test next week and not take my meds beforehand.
Thanks to everyone who advised me. I would be lost without your generous support.
Hi Sally I was interested to read your post... I take 50mg of Levothyroxin and wondered if you took this before compounded pigs thyroid. I would love to change to a more natural source... did you have an understanding doctor who monitors the results. Also what is Holy Basil? It sounds interesting. I have B12 injections... do you know if all this is compatible. Where do you get Pigs Thyroid from ?
In Australia, pigs' thyroid (usually called thyroid extract here, but is NDT (natural desiccated thyroid) - armour is the common American brand name) is a prescription medication. Any doctor can prescribe it, or at least I have only ever had mine prescribed by GPs (two) as a private prescription. Then the prescription goes to a compounding pharmacy to make up appropriate doses.
I broached the prospect of trying a more natural treatment than Levothyroxine but my doctor wasn’t interested. I have thought about going it alone but am obviously nervous about doing so.
I'm not sure that I consider it all that natural, really. It starts out as natural, I guess, but then fillers etc are added. That said, I feel better on it, but I suspect that is because it has T3, rather than being natural, as such. There's a thought that I'm a poor converter from T4 to T3 (high out of range RT3) so the T3 is likely helpful for me. Are you feeling okay? Did your doctor suggest anything else?
One of the things I recall reading on here is that NDT contains T!,T2,T3 and T4 and therefore mimics the human thyroid gland. Don't know where I heard that.
Yes, that's true, though the quantities are different between pig and human - pigs have more T3 and less T4. Also I read somewhere that the T1 and T2 might not be enough to make a difference but that this sentence with a grain of salt because I can't remember any details, or even if that is correct!!! I have had a huge improvement on NDT, myself, but I suspect that for me it is the added T3 that has made the difference.
Yes I am certainly a proponent of NDT now! It's certainly not one size fits all, but it's working for me. I am still mucking around with doses and times. The T3 for me, has to be taken early, usually around 5-6am then I awake at 7am with energy. NICE!
Sorry for the belated reply. I'm in Australia. I have it compounded to the strength I need.
Yes I did try Levo and discovered I was a poor converter from T4 to T3. I was then given T3 which was amazing until I crashed adrenally. I got quite ill (hospital) and my Endo and Adrenals Professor decided on NDT and some other adrenal drugs. I have an Adrenal Disorder called Primary Aldosteronism Hyperplasia and also have no thyroid, so I tread very carefully. It has taken a while to increase to this almost optimal amount.
Pis thyroid was of course used prior to the Pharmacuetical Company's patenting Levo. It works very well for me.
I got the name of my Endo from this forum's home page. Not sure where you live but I'd take a look to see if there is anyone nearby.
Holy Basil is a herb, I was recommended here to help with high cortisol. It definitely worked for me. But I did a private saliva test to find out where my cortisol was. That's always an option, but I'd get a good Endo first. It's a difficult journey, I felt insurmountable at times, but this forum gave me the support and advice I needed. Keep posting.
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