Hi, I didn't know this community existed! as the title suggests, I am looking for answers to a worsening lack of sleep. I would like to gain knowledge plus I also hope to find solutions that may help others, as I have started researching and trying those supplements that are promoted as helping with sleeplessness.
I am trying to find supplements to help wit... - Sleep Matters
I am trying to find supplements to help with worsening insomnia.
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Jenny583
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Supplements can be a complicated issue as it depends in part on your diet and there is a lot of misleading information floating around.
Hi Metabobbly, Thank you for your response. Yes, that is true, I have been there, it's all trial & error isn't it?
I hope to learn though!
I wouldn't say it is trial and error. However, it is is really quite complicated and a lot of the sources on the internet are wrong.
For any one individual there are things that can be tried, but it will vary from person to person. For example you need to make sure you take enough Vitamin D (in the form of D3 ideally as capsules), but if you are obese you need more than if you are not. I don't think there is any doubt, however, about needing Vitamin D supplements unless you wander around substantially unclothed in the sun most of the day in the summer.
I would always start with making sure you have some extra Vitamin D (at least 1000iu per day, I take 3000) and also some Magnesium (either in the form of malate or glycinate, citrate may be ok, but too much citrate may harm your sleep).
Also take Vitamin D in the morning because it needs to metabolise into 25OHD to help with sleep (inter alia).
The other thing is to work out what your sleep problem is. I also recommend measuring sleep with something objective such as a fitbit or apple watch. They may not be perfectly accurate, but they help to provide some records.
If you want some other suggestions it would help to know roughly your age, BMI and what your sleep problem is.
Thank you Metabobbly! vitamin D lack was originally the cause of my insomnia many years ago. But I had to wait till I developed secondary hyperparathyroidism B4 I could persuade GP to allow me a blood test, & even then it took a friend who had had (primary) hyperparathyroidism to scare GP into allowing the test. The GP prescribed a maintenance dose of calcium carbonate/vitD, (calcichew) the newly arrived (English) endocrinologist GP sent me to told me off saying that I should not be taking calcium carbonate for the hypocalcemia & after looking on the internet he advised me to sunbathe nude all year round! & also to buy a special orange juice from a specific supermarket (sainsbury's) that we don't have here. He then issued me with a script for something (it was in latin) to take to hospital. When I got home & opened the bag I found Calcichew! I realise now that the script was probably for vitamin D3, & perhaps magnesium? I now know they only prescribe calcium carbonate here, it's cheap.
I should have done some research, (especially with all the bone problems revealed from the scans) but I didn't realise that we osteoporosis sufferers have to diagnose, research & treat our own electrolyte imbalances with internet supplements. + I was new to internet & very mentally impaired, not to mention naive. Then I found the calcichew made me feel worse, & my calcium was still under range, so I stopped taking it. I never had another parathyroid test till a few months ago, (via endo), but with advice from H.U forum I started buying high dose vit D3 which I take AM.
I think the insomnia I had in 2010/11 was mainly from hypomagnesemia (I had all the symptoms) as well as hypocalcemia (all the symptoms of that too). So I spent £1000s on beds, mattresses, heat lamps, painkillers etc. I also spent £1000s on GP's they are very pricy here, & only prescribe antidepressants, proton pump inhibitors, cetirizine, calcium carbonate & propranolol. When my back really started to hurt about 20 years ago I had to pay about £25 per inch of spine, only for my GP to say oops, "I can't treat you you are under 50 yo". She then told me that I had dementia, & again when she tried to fix an appointment with the memory clinic, she said 20 years too young.
Then the clinic humored the GP by pretending to test memory, but they tested my IQ instead. I told them that IQ was down by 1/3, but they called me a liar. I asked why, they said we didn't test you back then.
Thanks for the tips. I can't afford the fitbit, but I know exactly how little sleep I get. I bought magnesium L Threonate from ebay last month, but I don't know if it's kosher as it is tablets not capsules & does not have the magtein patent logo.
I should also point out that I have longstanding hypothyroidism, for which I have to buy a sort of NDT for over the internet, but it is very pricy & I have to take a huge dose. I got the results back from an overseas finger prick test lab last night. having upped dose a little T4 is still very low.
I wanted to give the mag threonate a chance B4 I try mag glycinate, have been taking the threonate about a week now.
I don't know what my BMI is, but I put on a lot of weight 2.5 stone, when Dr's blackmailed me into messing around with doses of the metavive & T3, & now my thyroid axis point has reset & TSH feed back loop appears to have killed itself!
I am 63. BTW I have very dry skin which itches & comes off if I expose it to sun.
There are lots of different types of Mg Threonate. I moved back to Malate for magnesium about a week ago as I decided Threonate was encouraging my neurons to be more active.
I have not myself tried Glycinate, but it should be OK.
Bone problems would imply not just Vitamin D, but also K2. (not K1)
I hadn't tried Mg Threonate B4, but it's claimed to enter the blood brain barrier. Since starting it 2 weeks ago I have not needed to use the magnesium oil in the middle of the night for the neuropathy. My brain is far worse than ever though, but that could be the worsening depression, hoping the Glycinate will help with that.
Have been taking K2 along with D3 for years, after I started taking it I no longer bled like a stuck pig!
in reply to Metabobbly
Use CBT-i therapy. It is the best for curing insomnia and relearning to sleep again
Metabobbly in reply to
CBT is always something to try, but it may not be a total solution.
in reply to Metabobbly
But then again it may be. It's the #1proven method of retraining you to sleep. sleepfoundation.org/insomni...
Metabobbly in reply to
If you don't try it you won't know. I see clear signs of other metabolic issues being important as well.
in reply to Metabobbly
Sleep deficiencies associated with insufficient sleep schedules, insomnia with short sleep duration, sleep apnea, narcolepsy, circadian misalignment, shift work, night eating syndrome, and sleep-related eating disorder may all contribute to metabolic dysregulation. I have none of these. I have what's basically psychophysiological insomnia meaning I began by missing a few nights' sleep and my anxiety about sleep kept increasing. I get anxious and panic a few hours close to bedtime. It's basically a learned condition. My therapist said this sleep is related to my anxiety and visa-versa. Good luck with any of your metabolic issues. Have you seen anyone to diagnose these and help you? I wish you luck
I'd like to help you but I'm in the same place. I've had insomnia for 6 years. I finally got a therapist for teletherapy. He's going to help me with sleep therapy CBT-iFind someone who does it. You do something called sleep restriction
Jenny583 in reply to
I wish you all the best with the CBT provider. Sounds like a good plan. If you can't find a provider - could you DIY? I'll look up "sleep restriction".
in reply to Jenny583
I've taken sleep meds and looked up every other way including meditation and herbs and supplements. I'm surprised people talk about anxiety and insomnia symptoms but not this sleep therapy. I'm glad you're looking it up. It's not a long therapy and is the first therapy of choice for chronic insomnia. Looking for causes of chronic insomnia didn't help either. CBT-i works for chronic insomnia. I'm tired of looking up symptoms and causes of anxiety too. Knowing symptoms doesn't help work on the problem.
Jenny583 in reply to
You are so right! clever girl.
in reply to Jenny583
I think it's much more effective if you have guidance from a professional. It's not easy to find someone who does this. One psychologist told me it would take 6-8 weekly sessions. The problem is most of them don't accept insurance. I think mental health issues should be covered just like physical illness. I barely slept last night and feel like an anxious zombie today. I feel awful
Jenny583 in reply to
I feel for you! There are few things worse than being zombified from lack of sleep. It is used as a means of torture after all!I had problems with internet connection, so couldn't look into sleep restriction till now, but I had already 'instinctively' decided to try it & only now managed to look into it, & lo! I had reinvented it. It's nothing new though. It does take discipline & I get what you say about needing a professional to work with. I think it comes down to the need for support more than anything, which we need a lot of when we are depressed & anxious.
You are in 1 of the worst places (usa) when it comes to insurance cover. There's no $$$'s for big pharma & big insurance for mental health, they seem to prefer driving patients round the bend & then using big bucks drugs. so are there any peer support groups where you are?
I hope & pray that you get there. Meanwhile someone on this forum has reminded me about my infrared lamps, so I'll dig them out & see if they still work! If they do I'll clear out a room & be the guinea pig for sleep restriction & infrared therapy.
in reply to Jenny583
The therapists who do this are thoroughly trained in sleep disorders like chronic insomnia. you can look for one here. cbti.directory/index.php/se...
Jenny583 in reply to
That's great news for those in the USA. However I don't live in the USA. There are no services of any kind where I live. We have to DIY everything!
Billions of supplements exist. It depends on the cause. Quite often something not promoted for sleep ends up helping sleep because it improves the underlying cause.
You have to look at the big picture to know where to start. All your symptoms day and night including the teeny tiny stuff like you get a bit more tired in the afternoon than you used to or you tend to feel hungry more frequently. Maybe your allergies have gotten worse or you don't handle cold weather as well as you used to. Maybe you aren't getting as much sunlight or have become less active.
You need a starting point because the list of things that could possibly improve insomnia really is endless. I have probably taken 100s of supplements in an attempt to treat the possible causes of insomnia and I am not exaggerating. I am currently taking over a dozen supplements that out of all that have proven helpful for me so far.
Thanks kalista0, Ha, I wouldn't know where to start! I shot myself in the foot by ordering loads of supplements last month, & ended up worse! now I need to eliminate them 1 x1, to see if some additive is the culprit. One suspect supplement is high strength 5-HTP complex with lemon balm. I took 1 last week, no I take 1/3, I will skip tonights dose & see if anything changes.
I have been too tired to do much. I had exercise intolerance, now it seems to be fatigue & apathy more than anything.
For the last few months I have been really hungry day & night, especially in the morning.
Nightmares wake me up, bladder wakes me up, itching kept me awake last night. I took a zopiclone at 2 am, & dug out some CBD balm, the balm sorted the itching. I get 3-4 hours on average.
last year I was taking Tiromel (T3) along with metavive, I was able to do some chores every day, I could think, talk, walk & was asleep before 10pm, only woke once during night. No constipation waking me. But then Endocrinologist who had already dismissed me found out I had private tests, & told me to stop taking the T3. I have central hypothyroidism. I believe from the experience with T3 that I have brain hypothyroidism. I also have low cortisol, so most likely HPA/T axis dysfunction?
I have been exposed to all kinds of toxins, mainly insecticide, fluoride & plastics. Dr's told me they would test pituitary etc. But they didn't, instead they sent letter to me & GP claiming that I had the tests, I hadn't. I tricked the endo into printing out the tests I did have, then I copied it. None of the tests were relevant, they were just liver, kidney tests etc with some innapropriate fertility tests thrown in, I'm 63!
From that & the various experiences, & noting what helped & didn't help over the years, along with the refusal of Dr's to share medical history, & even to lie to me I have come to the conclusion that I am totally dependant on the H U forum. Thank you.
Hi,
Lemon balm can interfere with thyroid hormones.
Oh dear, I was afraid of that. The bottle says 10mg lemon balm. I split the pill into 3. I hope 3mg won't hurt.
Bad news.... you managed to hit the jackpot for insomnia causes. HPA axis and fatigue issues are one of the hardest combinations of problems to solve and often creep up on you with no definitive symptom to point at when talking to medical professionals. Few doctors take it seriously, don't know what tests to run, there aren't recognized tests for some of the issues involved, and few know what treatments to recommend because it takes a complex approach based around overall energy production, toxin removal, and restoring sleep triggers that have been lost as the body fails to make some of the hormones, neurotransmitters, and other things it needs. Thyroid, cortisol, and reproductive hormones all contribute to sleep quality or problems. Not needing to pee at night is also the result of a change in a diuretic hormone. Not making several needed hormones probably means you aren't making many other things. Daytime fatigue increases the odds of that.
Over the years along with my insomnia I kept gaining all sorts of vague health issues that weren't quite enough for doctors to diagnose as anything but were causing all sorts of problems. Mainly fatigue, brain fog, this overall discomfort that wasn't quite pain, constantly hungry but most food made me sick. I also had severe cold intolerance but my tsh level was always normal so they refused to test thyroid further. I felt like I should be laying in a hospital bed while people struggled to keep me alive and yet no one was finding anything wrong. I was just getting myself marked down as having panic attacks or hypochondria and sent back to the psychiatrist.
With the help of an integrative health doctor and many $1,000s out of pocket I sorted out many of my problems processing the foods I ate, improved my thyroid function, and likely stopped the start of some serious HPA axis dysfunction. At one point I was barely managing to drag myself out of bed to my desk where I laid my head down on my closed laptop and considered it an accomplishment. For the past few days I have been working my way across the house steam cleaning the wood floors and scrubbed the entire inside of the fridge. It's not the hiking 10miles in a day and then doing martial arts classes I could do without a second thought 10 years ago and I have nights I don't get as much sleep as I need but it's a major difference from feeling like I'm dying and having no sleep schedule to speak of.
First make sure to take 1 supplement at a time for at least several days and if it isn't a very basic nutrient like a common vitamin or mineral then preferably 1-2 weeks before adding another. Otherwise even if it works you will have no idea what worked. It makes it hard to figure out what to keep taking long term as well as what else might be useful if you don't know what out of the mix is helping. If your health is unstable or you have a tendency for random reactions it is best to try 1/2-1/4th a dose if it can be divided for a couple days first to check for a strong reaction. Quite commonly something helpful is just too much for your body to handle at the dosing recommended for a typical person until you at least partially correct the problem.
Sublingual forms are nearly always more effective because they bypass destruction by stomach acid, avoid any absorption issues in the gi tract, and don't get sent as directly to the liver where they may be broken down into less useful metabolites. Liposomal bound forms tend to have improved absorption and survival of stomach acid if you do decide to try a swallowed oral form.
Absolutely add b vitamins. Preferably the methyl forms. So methylcobalamin for b12 rather than cyanocobalamin and methylfolate rather than folic acid. A single b complex is simplest and works for most but a few people find they are sensitive to 1 b vitamin out of the group. Usually b12 is the highest risk for side effects including temporarily worsening insomnia but I find b1 or thiamine does that for me so I split my b vitamins into a sublingual methylb12 and methylfolate tablet, lipothiamine taken only once a week, and the rest are included in other things rather than being able to take a single pill of a b complex.
If methylfolate and methylb12 turn out to be helpful then you may want to look at tmg betaine powder. It's another methyl donor that helps with processing nutrients and producing energy. However, excessive addition of methyl compounds can cause fatigue if the body can't take in the nutrients needed to support the sudden increase in protein and fat usage. If you get a boost of energy and then a crash after a few days or weeks of feeling better and sleeping better then you probably went excessive on the methyl bound vitamins and should reduce dosage or only take them a certain number of days out of a week rather than every day.
I'd add some vit d with k included even if you get sun exposure every day. It's extremely important for so many things and relatively hard to overdose. Without a blood test showing a deficiency I would start around 500-1,000iu per day and not go over 5,000iu without consulting a doctor. 10,000iu is often used with actual deficiencies or under doctor supervision and it has minimal risk but macrodosing single nutrients can cause problems. Excessive amounts of fat soluable (vit A, D, E) instead of water soluable (b vitamins) vitamins has a higher risk for problems. Vit d can also cause temporary negative effects if started too high so start low. SBR Nutrition vit d3+k2 liquid doubled my vit d test values without having increased sunlight exposure and it has a nice minty taste. (if you like mint)
You might want to try sublingual or liposomal glutathione. It is an antioxidant made by the body that also contributes to many other things from protein processing to some functions of the immune system. Not at all the same as adding plant antioxidants. It will likely help with the heavy metals and problems processing nutrients that often accompanies the HPA axis dysfunction, general fatigue, and insomnia combo of problems.
A mineral mix would be a good idea. You don't need high dosing to get benefits from most minerals unless a test shows a serious deficiency. A basic liquid or powder mix with only a few mg each of zinc, manganese, selenium, and potassium at minimum is enough. Some will contain calcium, boron, silica, and others that are not as important but may be helpful and shouldn't be harmful. You may want to avoid any with copper. Mixes that also contain electrolyte salts may make you too thirsty but otherwise are fine. Iodine, molybdenum, and magnesium are also good things to make sure you are getting some of but molybdenum is rarely included and iodine and magnesium usually require higher dosages to be truly useful.
If you don't get a supplement that already includes iodine then Lugol's iodine is one of the best options. Iodine can help with minor thyroid problems and I no longer see a need for the t4 and t3 replacement I was on for a year. Usually 1-2 drops per day long term is all it usually takes to see benefits if it's going to help. Some will initially start higher to increase levels in their body faster before lowering the dose for long term. Others have to start as low as 1/2 a drop to avoid side effects until the body adjusts and then raise it.
All of these except magnesium can easily be added to water or any liquid and drank throughout the day or some squirt the liquid forms directly in their mouth depending on taste preferences. Liquid or powder multiminerals are both better for absorption and reduces the pile of pills you could otherwise end up with.
Magnesium glycinate is always a good idea with sleep disorders but a mix of magnesium forms can be more useful for such a mix of problems. Magnesium threonate, malate, and orotate are popular for their other benefits. Citrate and oxide are mostly only useful when you also have GI problems that benefit from a laxative. I would recommend at least glycinate and threonate. They may help you sleep immediately after taking or they may give you an energy boost that initially keeps you awake but improves sleep later. Adjust when you take them based on your reaction.
Omega 3 fatty acids are a good energy and anti inflammation source as well as having numerous other benefits including some definite, if poorly understood, effects on brain function. You need around 2,000mg of actual omega 3s (not just 2,000mg of fish oil) for benefits. Some higher absorbency oils from krill or green mussels may be useful with less but it's hard to find solid data on that.
Zeolite is a common mineral that is a lot like activated charcoal/carbon. It absorbs chemicals, heavy metals, and other compounds but it has a greater range of possible effects than charcoal. While looking for things with similar effects to antioxidants like glutathione I decided to try this more mechanical approach. 1 scoop of Zeo Health zeolite powder a day helps reduce the shortness of breathe I was experiencing with even very mild activity and improves my overall feeling of wellness. Being active and alert during the day and feeling more comfortable helps sleep at night. I tested negative for heavy metals but I think my body has had trouble dealing with the waste products of nutrient use. For example lactic acid production. Part of the reason you breathe heavier during exercise is that the body uses the gas exchange to also get rid of some byproducts like lactic acid. When the body isn't dealing with these things well it takes far less activity to trigger shortness of breath. It also often comes with constant low level fatigue, increased muscle aches or cramps, brain fog, and interrupted sleep cycles. Zeolite potentially absorbs waste products and heavy metals.
selfhacked.com/blog/zeolite...
Mineral and salt supplements can be a source of heavy metals contamination. Be certain to buy high quality brands and it's ideal if they display the testing done for heavy metals on their website or listing for sites like amazon. Don't be afraid to ask for that proof. Especially when dealing with products that are directly mined from the earth or collected from the oceans.
For other supplements that are not basic vitamins/minerals but useful you can also try coq10 preferably with pqq and sublingual atp for mitochondrial dysfunction and energy production.
When the body is stressed by other things it can succumb to mild yeast infection or other disturbances of the normal microbiome. It has the potential to turn one problem into 3. There's a very common candida herbal mix out there that almost every company that sells herbals has the same version of because it's proven so effective. It's a shorter term (couple months) supplement to get the body's microbiome back in balance. For a more serious immune system booster Samsara Tick Immune Support is aimed at lyme disease suffers who are having trouble recovering but it can have benefits for problems related to weakened or malfunctioning immune systems from physical stress in the body. Odds of negative side effects are high with that last one but I found it quite useful to take one bottle worth even after negative lyme tests. Probiotics and prebiotics can also be a good idea. Especially live, liquid probiotics instead of freeze dried capsules. I periodically use EM-1.
hsph.harvard.edu/nutritions...
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
I also suggest a few minor diet additions to help support the use of those vitamin/mineral supplements and provide the body the basics it needs for creating all those important things you appear to potentially be low in. You need lots of good quality proteins and fats for b vitamins and minerals to turn into hormones and neurotransmitters. A good whey or pea protein based shake, peanut butter, or yogurt are good protein additions. For fats virgin coconut oil or avocado oil are the best. You can get both as powder if you want the convenience of mixing in cold drinks.
When talking about beneficial proteins to add to the diet collagen peptides are a unique group of very small protein chains required for creating healthy skin, nails, cartilage and all connective tissue throughout the body. They are normally created from the larger protein chains you ingest in your diet. If you have signs of failing to process nutrients into other things you need at a high enough rate then collagen may be among those. We also get worse at producing collagens the older we get. More definitive studies are needed on how helpful collagen supplements are for general aging but reduced collagen in the body contributes to many of the problems we see with aging from skin and hair to joints to overall energy levels. Unless you are targeting a specific problem it's best to try to find a powder that includes a range of all 5 types.
After you solve the low energy, low hormones, and all those potentially related issues doctors don't test for then I would try looking into sleep specific supplements and solutions. It's unlikely the typical suggestions for increasing sedation and relaxation before bed are going to help until you improve your overall health some. From experience it just seems like the body is incapable of recognizing or else reacting to sleep pressure (the signals your body should sleep) when you are already fatigued and worn out all day.
Gosh! I don't know what to say - except thank you! I may have hit the jackpot with diagnosis 😁.Your history sounds eerily similar to yours - except my executive function is shot, & getting worse, & there are no functional Dr's here - even if I could afford them.
Like you I did much research & obtained much advice, especially from thyroid UK.
Unfortunately as I don't live in the UK I was frustrated to find that much of the advice - though excellent, could not be used where I live.
However I did learn to use b vitamins through TUK wizards( 4 years ago) Unfortunately I didn't realise that the biotin I was taking was skewing the results of TFT's which I started at the same time. Even so my FT3 & FT4 levels were in the gutter. A friend told me what TFT's to ask for, while the GP had started to send printouts of results as she could not get me on phone.
I got advice for the friend from Thyroid UK, as a result her hashimoto's meds were renewed. Then she was able to sort her kitchen cupboards & found some old Liothyronines there, she gave me all of them, & I took them for a year B4 I ran out. Then I discovered Metavive. I stopped taking biotin for 3 days B4 test in 2018 & TFT's appeared even lower. I only discovered last year that the biotin is 10MG! if I had omitted the biotin for several weeks then the true TFT's would have shown very hypo. All the tests I have had up till now are invalid. I have invalidated myself, & now it's too late to do anything. the The Dr's here only recognise TSH, & mine has been almost 0 for 3 years now, so they regard me as a self inflicted thyrotoxic hypochondriac. But the 1st printout I received did point to central hypothyroidism.
I was in truth very under range, but could not get medication, just antihistamines.
In 2011 I started with very high BP, & tachycardia after 4 lots of antibiotics in 2010,I had extreme stress & bone pain as well & while I was living on ice cream & ice lollies which I craved. I couldn't lie down or sleep. Lying down set something off. Like you, I had hypothermia & dressed like an eskimo 24/7 with a hat & trapper hat on almost year round! Also I had no desire to breathe, I had to do so consciously.
I noticed that the Dosulopin (which GP had doubled) set off a worsening of symptoms. I stopped taking them. I experienced severe withdrawal. I could not eat. All the prescription drugs made my stomach bleed. PPI's made anaemia worse.
Dr's did not tell me that I had been hypo for years, or that I was malnourished. Instead 1 of them accused me of taking drugs - because I had shingles (again), which they failed to diagnose on previous occasions.
So I have come to the conclusion that I was very run down & allergic to all the drugs. I had repeated episodes of allergic reactions to AD's with even worse withdrawal effects. I eventually started taking responsibility for my health after looking up 'seratonin syndrome' & saw health forums for the 1st time. I saw that all the toxic AD's I had been taking were responsible for the reactions to stopping them, & also crippling me while taking them. I lived on ginger for a long time, I could hold things down a bit then, then I introduced bananas, then kiwi's & eventually tinned sardines, which I craved. So I stopped taking the PPIs, artificial tears & saliva, propranolol, various BP meds anti seizure pills etc.
I then restored my gut dysbiosis using apple cider vinegar, ginger, avocado etc. GP told me I had a "wheat allergy". I went gluten free My craving for ice cream, carbs & ice vanished. Then I ended up with secondary hyperparathroidism, with no calcium or D3 in blood. I have had to abandon the gluten free food. Now I eat yogurt when on special offer. If I wasn't so hungry all the time I would squeeze in tinned sardines at mid day, & just eat eggs & beetroot the rest of the time.
I believe I had candida in 2011, but I dared not tell GP, so I tried gluten free.
I have had to slowly empty freezer though as I can't afford to run it. The supplements cost more than the food! I tried coconut oil but had to give it up, as it was usually rancid when I opened it. I will make notes of your detox diet, but the only water I have is heavily contaminated, it's not just the other toxins - which I can to some extent avoid most years. I may look into water filters though - if I can save up. Meanwhile I may order valerian root & mag glycinate, & see if the mag threanate restores my brain function.
I started taking methyl b12, b6, folate, (phoenix nutrition). I only take them every other day. B4 I was just taking b vits randomly, as I couldn't tolerate them. I stagger all kinds of supplements, a few of some 1 day, a few of another another day. I am too brain damaged & tired to be organised right now. I hope to soon.
Thanks for the links, I will look them up tonight. P S I take collagen & high dose fishoil.
👍
Just for the record, I take half dose zinc, omega 3 fish oil each night. All eight B vits which I stagger over 2 days. Random gulps of CoQ10, Marine collagen, vitamin E, NAC, Taurine, Vitamin C, selenium, Vitamin D3 & K2 spray, MSM, Glucosamine & Chondroitin complex, turmeric, boron. Currently Trialling L citrulline, vitamin B3 nicotinande, L-Lysine, Bamboo. Can't see any others right now, containers full of bulk buy pills & potions!
As far as I am concerned my tests with Selenium did not get positive results. I think you could be careful with Zinc. Personally I take 40mg twice a week. With many things it is possible to go too high as well as be deficient.
Vitamin K2 can be quite helpful for bones, but it can be counterproductive for sleep. There are quite a few different types depending upon how many isoprene residues they are. They are numbered like MK7 or MK4. There are only three types available as supplements MK4, MK7 and MK9, but you can get the other ones in different types of cheese (particularly hard cheese)
They provide extra energy for cells through an electron transport for the mitochondria that means putting up your heart rate and potentially causing you to sleep less. (through more energy in the neurons). This is particularly MK7 and possibly MK9. Watch the impact of cheese, th0ugh.
Ah! I had a mad craving for hard cheese especially Gouda, but very pricy here, when the craving returns I remember to order more K2(7). ATM I use a D3/K2 mouth oil spray, it gives me the freedom to take thyroid glandular 1st thing am.
Yeah, I noticed cheese keeps me awake. I think my neurons are short circuiting, that will be the supplements I expect. nightmares every night now, but sleep up to 5 hrs now. I'm only taking 20mg zinc every other night, (white spots on nails). Thanks for the tip on neurons BTW.
It is quite likely that the longer chain menaquinones will (MK-7 to MK-13) will keep you awake moreso as they provide the facility to produce more ATP.science.sciencemag.org/cont...
I want to be able to take k2 and also sleep adequately so I am currently experimenting with retraining my Melatonin receptors and ideally increasing the level of ketosis in my system whilst also taking k2 (Mk4 Mk7 and Mk9). A lot of the body's systems take more than one day to respond so you cannot be certain immediately what is happening.
Thank you, kaliska0, for going to the trouble of explaining all that you have discovered. You have given me several avenues to follow up on. I also have a tricky combination of thyroid, adrenal, HPA axis, sex hormones, neurotransmitters and now prednisone that I have had to deal with. I had terrible insomnia for over 25 years (am now 75), but now I am sleeping well again--it's like a miracle.
I could write a book, but what may be of interest to others here are the last three pieces to fall into place. 1) In my late fifties I became severely depressed and anxious and found a wholistic psychologist who figured out that I wasn't absorbing minerals and proteins (necessary to make neurotransmitters). I was losing weight and had to eat four meals a day just to hold my own, actually slowly starving to death. My inner voice said your brain just isn't getting what it needs. The doctor told me to take Betaine hydrochloride pills (stomach acid--easily available in a health food store--and cheap) with each meal. Within a week, I felt better, although it took a year for my brain to fully recover. The depression and anxiety went away. About this time I started taking Trazadone to help me sleep and that gave me about 4 hours of sleep a night. Trazadone is an antidepressant that couldn't be used as such because it made people too sleepy. Also cheap. 2) In 2014 I had a knee replacement operation and I couldn't recover my energy. I had a 24 hour cortisol saliva test that showed my cortisol was never high enough in the morning and sagged very low during the night. A functional medicine doctor gave me
hydrocortisone for adrenal deficiency (I had many signs) and I recovered my energy and I really started to sleep better too. Now I was sleeping 6-6 1/2 hours. So going into PMR in 2018 I already had adrenal insufficiency. No Addison's antibodies though. 3) After going on prednisone I slept even a little better, but usually woke up at around 4 am. I decided to experiment with 1/2 mg of prednisone at night. I took
most of my prednisone with breakfast around 9 am, and saved 1/2 mg to take with dinner. Voila! Now sleeping until 6 or 6:30, total 8 hours. I get up once to pee around 4-5 am and then go right back to sleep. The prednisone is a steadier amount of cortisol that lasts through the night, which the hydrocortisone didn't-- it metabolizes faster.
Also must mention that I take T4 and time-release T3, estrogen gel and a little progesterone cream, phosphatidylserine for my hippocampus (ruler of the HPA axis),
Effexor (venlafaxine) for depression that returned about 10 years after the first
time, and sometimes some Sam-e. Down to 4.5 mg prednisone and I don't care if
I ever get off it. I feel quite well and have pretty good energy for 75.
Jenny583, a trial of Betaine is easy to do. I use Vitamin Shoppe brand. Just be sure you take it with food. First one with each meal, then two. If you get a burning feeling in your stomach, take a couple of TUMS, and know that you don't need stomach acid.
Hi gaqke10, I did consider Betaine, but by the time I was well enough to search online I found the problems with absorption & dysbiosis had gone. You must be in a big country like maybe USA - I'm guessing. That Dr sounds like a real rare gem!
I am unable to obtain any kind of prescription medication. I found apple cider vinegar as good as betaine, & much cheaper, when I was anaemic I took it with red meat.
Thank you all for the wonderful advice and sorry I am so late in replying, all kinds of hitches prevented me from responding B4 now! 😍
Also I would download the insight timer app. There are lots of sleep medidation tracks to listen to. Search Yoga Nidra for sleep for starters. They all help when your mind is racing
Right, so I have decided to order some Valerian root. But I'm still undecided on whether to order magnesium glycinate or just glycinate. Decisions decisions!
I've used valerian root and magnesium glycinate to help with my sleep.
No more herbs or supplements for me. No more looking up causes and symptoms of insomnia and anxiety. Find a therapist who will use CBT-i. It's the best short term treatment for insomnia and it works. It's important to start acting on it instead of just talking about insomnia
Jenny583 in reply to
I hope you find relief. We don't have therapists where I live.
Hi JennyWhilst you’re searching for your cure, you may wish to try my miracle cure (I tried everything else!) Its called Kirkman sleep aid, I believe it’s from America but I buy it in the uk on the internet without all the taxes. It’s a first generation antihistamine that knocks you out. I can still get up in the night to eg sort out an ill child, then get back off. It has been my miracle cure after over a decade of insomnia.
My GP is excellent, I asked him and he said it is just an antihistamine and fine to take for life. I just have half or third of a tablet. I also have low cortisol and adrenal problems. You probably know around 2am with low cortisol the body will release adrenaline, leaving you wired but tired. That was my problem until I discovered this. I’m not sure where you are but you can get it in Spain, it’s called Dormadina (same active ingredient), but it’s much more expensive buying it there.
Have you thought about LDN, low dose naltrexone?
Good luck-insomnia stinks, I hope you win the battle x
Thank you CC, I am thrilled that you have found the answer to insomnia! I am in channel isles so no options for LDN or anything else - ( health service non existent here)!I will look up Dormadina though. 👍
At the moment I am trying to order NDT from abroad via internet, but with my hypothyroidism, low cortisol, lack of sleep & eye inflammation - I'm making a lot of mistakes.
Right now anxiety is keeping me awake, but once I have the NDT to trial I will be able to make a better assessment of what works for sleep. I'm alternating Mg threonate with Mg glycinate at night, valerian seems to be good, when I remember to take them that is!👍
Beware of Lemon balm if hypothyroid folks! I ordered some 5-HTP & there is 10mg of lemon balm in it 🙄
Do you take Melatonin?
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