Sleep advice please - bit long, sorry!

[kt_11]

Is there anyone here who has managed to ‘teach’ their baby to fall asleep in their cot for naps or bedtime? If so, how did you do it?! I know there are loads of so-called experts out there but I just want some advice from real people who have been through it.

My baby boy is 16 weeks old. Breastfed. He sleeps reasonably well at night, waking once or twice at the moment. I don’t feel he gets enough night sleep so am gradually moving bedtime forward (currently about 8:30pm).

He will only go to sleep with motion, so either in the pram or car, in the carrier or if I bounce him on a gym ball. I understand from various sources this is not a helpful sleep association but he just does not sleep otherwise & gets really irritable.

Unfortunately as a result I’m exhausted and don’t get a minute to do anything as when he’s asleep during the day I’m either walking, driving or bouncing him. He will often sleep after a feed but only on me, and I’ve stopped feeding him to sleep at night (he gets fed and then woken again for nappy change etc before bed).

I’ve tried watching for signs that he’s tired before putting him down, I’ve tried putting him down after a certain time despite not yet seeing tired cues, white noise & lullabies. I’ve also tried bouncing him til he’s drowsy but not asleep and put him down then. Even when I’ve left him for ages (not crying but not sleeping either) he still just lies there awake then eventually will get agitated due to being tired. If he does cry, I’ve tried settling him by shushing and patting in the cot and also picking up & putting down (though admittedly not for long as he just gets worse). I’m not happy to leave him ‘crying it out’, he’s only little.

He is swaddled at night but I’ve been reluctant to swaddle him 3x a day as well as night when actually I’d rather be weaning off that soon (he’s starting to roll over). He won’t take a dummy and although he puts his thumb and fingers in his mouth, it doesn’t seem to help him settle and sometimes seems to make it worse, irritating him.

I’ve found myself getting really quite angry over the last few weeks and seem to end up in tears at least once a day. I know that he can sense my anger which makes me feel terrible as it’s not his fault but I just want a bit of time at home with him asleep so I can cook meals to freeze or even have a few minutes rest. Anyone been through similar? x

[Hidden]

I think it’s down to your baby my first was a nightmare cried a lot at night hated being put down to sleep would wake she was breastfed as soon as I started bottle feeding she settled much better think she was hungry, but my 2nd she just went off herself I did swaddle her and she had a blankie no dummy she was great & bottle fed I could face breastfeeding through the night again as I had a toddler aswel

[kt_11 in reply to Hidden]

I do suspect that generally is the case. It's just so hard for first time mums as there are so many 'experts' out there writing books and websites, letting you know that pretty much everything you do is "making a rod for your own back" and if you use any way of getting them to sleep other than just putting them in the cot drowsy but awake and having them blissfully drift off, they'll never learn to sleep! My mum says I never slept either yet here I am at the age of 34 managing ok without having to be rocked to sleep so I must've learned at some point!

I've not really had the option of bottle feeding as he wouldn't take a bottle, even of expressed milk. I think I've made a small breakthrough with that these last couple of weeks so at least it's becoming more of an option if I need it. Part of me feels I've got to 4 months without supplementing now though so I might as well carry on without messing about starting him on formula and see what he's like when he starts weaning. My main focus of getting him to have a bottle of breastmilk was so I could actually have a bit of time to myself so that might help me feel less stressed even if it doesn't directly affect his sleep.

Thanks for your reply hun. I know you've had a rubbish time recently so it's appreciated that you're offering help to others like myself. Hope you're doing ok x

[Amanda86]

I’m in a similar situation, my little boy will be 16 weeks on Monday. He still doesn’t sleep well through the night, at best he’s up 3 times, at worst he’s up every 2 hours (he’s bottle fed).

He will only nap during the day on me, if I lay him down he wakes instantly and cries!

I haven’t tried any techniques yet only because I’m so tired by night time that I don’t have the energy to do it (he’s up for the day from between 5-6am every day).

He has reflux and colic and apparently these can often make babies unsettled in terms of sleeping etc, so could ce that in his case.

Sorry, bit of a pointless reply as I’ve no helpful advice but just wanted to let you know I know how your feeling! 😖 xxx

[kt_11 in reply to Amanda86]

Aww sorry to hear you're in a similar situation. To be honest it sounds like you have it a bit worse than me so I really feel for you. Sometimes I do let him nap on me after he's fed, just so I know he'll get a bit of sleep, other times I use things like the sling or pram but that's exhausting when you have to do it 3 or 4 times a day to get him to sleep. Tonight I went for a 45 minute walk with the pram and he just laid there awake the whole time! I wouldn't mind but he just gets so irritable when he's over-tired. He's so alert that I think he gets over stimulated very easily and quickly.

Does your little boy settle in a sling or carrier? Sometimes the reflux babies do I think. I use it to bounce him on the ball sometimes as it enables me to keep a better posture and it's easier on my upper back than holding him. Obviously once he's asleep I have to just keep bouncing on the ball or go for a walk, as taking him out of it will wake him.

I have questioned before whether my boy has had reflux but I've never been convinced it's enough to warrant medicating him (intermittent symptoms, no issues with lying flat amongst other things). I spoke to the doctor who prescribed Gaviscon but I never gave it to him in the end as you're supposed to give it mid-feed (not easy when fully breastfed & won't take a bottle) and I felt that would cause him more distress than any symptoms he may have had. I thought about going back and asking to trial ranitidine instead but again I've never felt it's bad enough so I hope that decision I made in his best interests hasn't caused him any unnecessary discomfort.

Sounds like you're doing a great job with your little man so keep going and make sure you get support when you need it. That's one thing I've not been good at doing and I think it's caught up on me now and contributed to the frustration I've felt. I'm sure you'll know that feeling of how wanted and loved our little babies are, particularly after IVF and I've felt so guilty for feeling stressed and angry with myself and my gorgeous little boy. I know if I was speaking to another mum in the same situation I'd be telling them they're doing a great job but it's so easy to be tough on yourself when you're so sleep deprived xx

[Amanda86 in reply to kt_11]

I haven’t actually tried a sling or carrier, I do have a slight so do need to try. It’s very odd because at night he settles fine in his crib, apart from being up a lot sometimes he will go back down in crib, from 4am he won’t for some reason (although I have a book that says overnight wind buildup peaks between 4-7am) so could be that. However, during the day he just won’t have it lol. I have read they sometimes just like to be with you to feel secure etc. I’ve basically just accepted this is how he is, it’s a bit of a pain but I am hoping in the next month or so when napping becomes less frequent and more routined then hopefully it’ll be easier.

If you baby seems to manage his reflux without medication then I would definitely stick to not medicating, we use ranintadine which has been brilliant but before being on that he would scream when laid down, so his symptoms wouldn’t have been manageable without medication. We used gaviscon at first, which was great and as he’s bottle fed easy for me to give but he fed too often so it became ineffective. I think your baby would let you know if he was in discomfort so try not to worry 🙂

I know what you mean, I hate when I feel frustrated but as you say sleep deprivation on top of an unsettled baby is extremely difficult. Only people who’ve had sleep deprivation along with an unsettled baby will truly understand, when I speak to people who have babies who sleep well always, alone and have done from day dot they come out with things like your not feeding him enough, that’s why he doesn’t sleep or your holding him too much that’s why he won’t lay in crib during day- absolute nonsense!! They just don’t understand. We’re first time mums and I think we’re doing really well, so I now just go with the flow! The only routine I stick with is bed time at the moment, naps during the day at the moment are still just whenever he needs them and I think at this young age that’s probably normal?!

A few friends have told me that their babies found their own sort of routine around 5/6 months in terms of day time napping etc so that’s what I’m hoping for. I know some people say you want a routine as early as possibly but they go through so much (teething, learning new skills, sleep regression) their routine is constantly thrown off with these things anyway, as I say we do stick to the same bedtime routine but it was my little boy who chose his time, he just started to fall asleep around 7.30-8pm each evening so that’s what I stick with now.

You’re doing an amazing job, try not to stress too much. I know it’s hard but a few people reminded me it won’t last forever, they also will be older before we know it and not wanting to cuddle us anymore so I’m just trying to enjoy all the cuddles I can get just now 🤗

Xxx

[Amanda86 in reply to kt_11]

P.s I also believe babies can take after Mum or Dad how they were as babies. My partner was a good baby, sleeping all night from a young age, having to be woken for bottles etc. I wasn’t so good, had to be help to nap, suffered with reflux and colic, I wouldn’t settle in a crib and my mum co-slept with me - looks like I’ve had a mini me 😂 xxx

[embiemomma]

i do thinks there's an element of different babies... But at 16 weeks we started a routine with our little boy, bath, boob and bed - in cot from about 6:30. Started doing the same with naps, minus the bath. Kept it dark and quiet pre nap and bed time. And persisted. That's the key... Babies thrive on routine. It took a while, with regressions and tears (from both of us) and i never let him cry more than a minute or two. But it worked. He breastfed up until recently and is almost 18 months old. I can't remember what age exactly, but he now sleeps 11-12 hours solid at night and 2-3 hours nap in the day, in his cot, no problems. We've always stuck with the same routine, just adjusted the times and now he has cows milk not mine. He also has a couple of books before bed, we tried this when we first started the routine but he was a bit too young I think. He used to be rocked to sleep too, car, pram, in arms... I think there's an age where they just don't 'need' that anymore, but just find a routine and stick with it, even through regressions. It's worth it i promise!! Xx

[kt_11 in reply to embiemomma]

Thanks very much for your input. We have been doing a routine at night for a few weeks so maybe eventually that will pay off. It's not dissimilar to yours but he suffers with wind so unlike you I tend to feed him before his bath. He doesn't really relax with the bath (he finds it a bit too much fun I think!) so I take him to the bedroom and we have a bit of quiet time where I talk or sing to him. I've tried books but again he just seems to get excited by them rather than ready for bed so I've left that til he's a bit older! He then gets swaddled which he likes but I'm worried about how to wean him off that as well.

At the moment the routine still then involves rocking him to sleep but I'm trying to create associations like the lullabies or white noise each time whilst I'm doing it, and gently saying the same things to him in the hope that he might be able to replace the rocking with these other things which can be done whilst he's in the cot. I try to get him up at the same time each day and if he wakes before that I go to him so he knows I'm there but then put him back in his cot with his mobile going until the time I want him to get up (if he cried or I felt he was hungry I would pick him up but he tends to just 'talk' to the toys on his mobile!)

Do you think I just need to be a bit better at doing the same for his naps? I've been wanting to start weaning the swaddle at night so don't really want to add it in during the day but maybe I need to for a short time to get him comfortable with napping. The other day I did manage to put him down in the cot to nap (unswaddled). I put him down with the white noise on and briefly left the room. I came back and he was asleep! I actually nearly cried with joy but it hasn't happened again since despite my efforts! x

[embiemomma in reply to kt_11]

you sound like you're doing the right things... I think it's just consistency until he gets the routine. The only things I'd say is... I was always advised by midwife and health visitor not to feed before his bath (maybe that's not helping with wind?) imagine having a bath yourself after a big meal? And with his naps, I'd do the same routine (minus the bath obviously!) but he'd be in his day clothes not baby grow (still in a sleep sack) he had a love to dream swaddle bag when he was little, but I think we switched to a normal gro bag when he was about 4/5 months. Try and unswaddle around the time he loses his startle reflex otherwise you might be in for a battle later! As for getting excited at sleep times, we just kept upstairs dark and quiet, he had his bath in candlelight! And then I'd feed him in the dark before a cuddle and putting him down. Have you tried a baby oil massage after his bath to try and relax him? Also i swear the lavender baby bath stuff works for mine! p.s are you a nurse? People in healthcare always worry about everything! 😂 I'm a nurse so i know!! Xxx

[embiemomma in reply to embiemomma]

also... I forgot to say. Mine did have wind up to about 4 months, he'd have infacol before every feed. He was a guzzler (still is!!) and he had hiccups all the time too, still does occasionally. And it didn't work straight away, i can't remember exactly, but definitely a few weeks. I just persisted because i knew it would be better long term. Xxx

[kt_11 in reply to embiemomma]

Thanks for the reassurance. Oh I didn’t know that about the bath. I only ever have a shower myself so can’t really imagine what it’s like to have a bath after a meal 😂 Might have to change that back then. It was just so he wasn’t going straight to bed on a full stomach cos he does guzzle as well! Will just have to burp him really well or maybe get the infacol out, or we can try a massage (we’ve done baby massage classes so know what to do).

That’s what I was thinking about the swaddle. I think the reflex is definitely reducing but still there a little. He seems so comfortable in it yet when I try him without it the first thing he does is bring his hands to his face, as if trying to soothe himself but he just rubs his face and shoves his hand in his mouth quite hard and gets wound up.

And no I’m not a nurse but I do work in healthcare (neuro physio). You’re probably right about the worrying, although I think a lot of it’s in my nature to be anxious as well! 😊 xx

[Hidden]

My friends a foster carer and she get babies all the time and she’s really good with routine and she has a Ewan the dream sheep it turns on when baby wakes with white noise she swears by it.

[kt_11 in reply to Hidden]

I've got Ollie the Owl (much the same as Ewan!) Unfortunately I keep forgetting until bedtime that the batteries have run out and you need a screwdriver to take the panel off and replace them. Need to sort that out during the day when I'm not trying to get a baby to sleep!

[Hidden in reply to kt_11]

Lol

[Hidden]

I’m sort of in the same situation as well. My little girl is six months and will not go for a nap without falling asleep on me first. Night time isn’t too bad. We had cracked it but then had to move her into her own room and now she doesn’t settle well alone. I’ve dug the Ollie the owl out we were given and trying to work on it. She starts nursery maybe in Nov and I really need to get this sorted so she can nap anywhere x

[kt_11 in reply to Hidden]

Good luck! Sounds similar. I know things can change but night-time, although variable, isn’t too bad (once asleep he will sleep for anything from 3 to 7 hours and I have no idea what makes the difference). He goes back to sleep relatively easily after a night feed though so I feel I can manage that.

Although I obviously don’t want other people struggling it is a bit reassuring that others are in the same position and it’s not just that I’m doing things ‘wrong’! Let me know if you find a good solution! 😊 x

[Hidden in reply to kt_11]

I always found night time not too bad. She would always go straight to sleep after a feed when she was little. She then slept through from about 4 months. It’s just the day time I struggle with. If she wasn’t going to nursery I wouldn’t worry so much as I love the cuddles but it’s not like they can do that to help her sleep 😂. I try to start some sort of way to get her to sleep but then the next day we could be out at nap time so then it goes out the window.

Hope we all find a solution! X

[Hidden]

Its totally normal! My son is 9 months and breastfed, never had formula, he only napped on me for months, and we co sleep at night. He still naps on me most of the time, but will go down in his cot for other people, breastfed babies tend to associate mothers with their milkies which provide comfort as well as food, so its very common for the mum to struggle getting the baby to sleep independently.

Its only been the last month or so that daddy has been able to get him to sleep at night, i do the last feed downstairs and daddy takes him up, does the bedtime routine and rocks him to sleep, he generally stays down in his cot for 40 minutes to an hour before waking, and then daddy goes up to comfort him and he is down for about the same amount of time, the next time he stirs i go up to feed him.

As i mentioned, we co sleep which has quite honestly saved my sanity, baby sleeps in line with my breast and this allows him to latch on and off as he needs during the night. He generally does around 12 hours at night with 2-4 dream feeds. This means i am well rested and much more able to cope during the day.

[kt_11 in reply to Hidden]

Thanks for your reply. Good to hear all the different variations of “normal” rather than just what some people think we should be doing. I don’t mind him napping on me sometimes - just need him to be able to settle elsewhere as well so I can have a few minutes to do things.

Sounds like co-sleeping works really well for you. Don’t think it’s for me though. I wouldn’t trust my partner to not roll onto him as he moves a lot in his sleep so if I had baby in bed it would definitely require us to have separate beds (not impossible but not necessarily what I want). x

[Asiula87]

Somebody already mentioned that the routine is very important. We started our little on the bed time routine when she was 8 weeks old. It was all fantastic, but she would only fall asleep when breastfed or was giving her a bottle. The day time was all over the place and again, would only fall asleep when breastfed. We tried the 'cry it out' approach once and she would just cry and cry and cry. I couldn't listen to it, so we stopped. Then one day I had to visit my work for the day and my partner was with the baby. He has managed to teach her to fall asleep on her own (he didn't have a choice as he can't breastfeed)! He let her to cry it out, but was there reassure her every few minutes. The first time it took them 40min, but the next two would be only 10-15min to fall asleep. I was so surprised when I got home that I actually thought he was laying! The next day all I had to do was to put the little in the cot and she was gone! He saved me from the stress and tears and now I have beautifully sleeping 1 year old. It's just an idea, but maybe try your partner to teach your baby to go to sleep? Go for a walk and see how it goes! Please, remember that you are an amazing mum to you little one and that you are doing an amazing job!

[kt_11 in reply to Asiula87]

Thanks for your reply and the reassurance. Sometimes hard to feel like you’re doing a good job. I’m sure you’ll know the feeling.

My partner does sometimes put him to bed at night but still needs to rock/bounce him. To be honest he doesn’t even necessarily cry if I put him down awake, just doesn’t sleep. He will cry if he goes down asleep but then wakes.

If I know he’s just tired & definitely can’t be hungry I have tried to just reassure him in the cot rather than picking him up if he cries (so he knows I’m not ignoring his cries) but don’t think I’d be able to do that for 40 minutes! xx

[anna0908]

I remember mine being exactly like that at that age and desperate to get him to sleep in a cot instead of always with me being cuddled! Think you are doing great if he is settling himself at night and my advice is time can make a huge difference! I tried at 16 wks and could not get him to sleep in his cot in the day. I stopped trying for a bit and when I tried again at 5 months, he suddenly took to it like dream! I think he just wasn't ready before. I did start using blackout curtains in his room. The week I cracked it I decided to take him up for each nap when he showed cues. I would hold him ( but not rock) til he got sleepy, then put him down. I planned to pick him up if he wouldn't settle, but stay in the room with him in the dark, so at least he was transitioning to the new routine. Occasionally boobed him to sleep in his room too. However, 9 times out of 10 he didn't need either and got himself to sleep. I can't promise it will work for you, and think sometimes it is just trial and error to see what works for you, but I definitely failed miserable at 16 weeks and needed to wait til he was a little older. It is so hard though as do remember feeling I had no break at all and my boy was clearly tired when he woke up as wasn't getting quality sleep in my arms. Hope you crack it soon. Best wishes xx

[kt_11 in reply to anna0908]

Thanks. This is similar to what I’ve tried and so far it’s only worked once but it’s reassuring that your baby just ‘got it’ when he was ready. I’ve no doubt that he’s going through a very intense phase developmentally at the moment & I do wonder if he’s just too switched on and alert to settle whilst that’s all going on, still needs help getting to sleep at the moment and might relax a bit more when he’s over it. He goes from ok to over-tired & cranky very quickly (like flicking a switch 😂)

I’m not in a rush to lose the cuddles as he’s growing so fast, but it can be exhausting and he’s already quite big, so trying to knock the rocking/bouncing to sleep on the head before it becomes physically too difficult for me! I agree about sleep quality too - can’t help feeling he’d be getting ‘better’ sleep in the cot xx