Possible trigger for autoimmune diseases

[HeronNS]

Just came across this and thought the findings may go some way towards explaining why some vaccinations seem to cause autoimmune responses, like new-onset PMR, in certain individuals. Not so much the substance which triggers the immune response, but adjuvant added to increase such reponse. (A postscript to this is my own experiences during the current pandemic. One was Shingrix vaccine which appears to have helped my version of PMR finally to go into remission. The other was possible aggravation of previously inconsequential heart symptoms by Moderna covid vaccine.)

As far as I know, and read this somewhere a long time ago, the mRNA vaccines do not contain adjuvants. As my long-forgotten source stated, those vaccines are their own adjuvant.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/367...

[Kendrew]

Hi HeronNS,

Like yourself, I too experienced an escalation in intensity and duration of a heart arrhythmia issue following a moderna vaccination.

Just to add, I'm currently having to jump through hoops to access a Pfizer vaccine, despite NHS England informing me that all GP's have information detailing a clinical pathway to follow in order to access an alternative vaccine for patients like myself, who can no longer have Moderna. SO frustrating.

[HeronNS in reply to Kendrew]

I hear you! So far NO vaccines are available in Nova Scotia. I think they are planning to release both flu and covid shots on October 15th, treating covid, unfortunately, as a seasonal illness. And as far as I know only Moderna currently available although both Pfizer and Novavax have been approved. I had Novavax last time (Spring) and was hoping for that again but apparently it will not be purchased for our country at all, although it is reputed to cause fewer side effects and to provide a wider spectrum, longer lasting immune response. People who live near the US border are crossing over there to get Novavax! I plan to have a discussion with my GP, probably when I go for the flu shot, but right now I'll likely wait until Pfizer appears later, which it did last fall. Fortunately my husband, who is more vulnerable than I am, hasn't had any issues with any of the vaccines so I expect he'll get whatever is available first.

[Kendrew in reply to HeronNS]

The annoying thing is, that over here in the UK, the 'clinical pathway' to access Pfizer is so simple. All the gp has to do, is fill in the specific form that authorises some specific pharmacies to resource it. I really shouldn't be finding it so challenging. Thankyou for your response.

[HeronNS in reply to Kendrew]

One does wonder what has happened to health care. The stated reason for not ordering Novavax this time was low uptake last time. The reason the uptake was so low was they made it almost impossible to access it. When we finally got an appointment and our son drove us to the location which, although in our city, would have been 80 minutes each way by bus, the person administering the shot actually asked me if I was sure I wanted Novavax. She said it was not recommended by Health Canada (it had been approved, but apparently that's different). 🙄

On the other hand I could have had Moderna next door, or Pfizer a short ferry ride + easy walk or bus ride away. 🤷

Fingers crossed the bureaucracy wakes up for you!🍀

[Thelmarina in reply to Kendrew]

Mine was Pfizer - I didn’t know it was an issue. The things you learn on this forum!

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Thelmarina]

Never had any issues with Pfizer - out of 8 vaccines, 5 have been Pfizer.

[Swizzly]

I had Covid twice in 2020 and 2021 and then shingles. Not vaccinated for either and now PMR.

[HeronNS in reply to Swizzly]

As stated in my post this may explain some cases of new onset autoimmune conditions in certain individuals post vaccine. Covid itself is also implicated in causing an unfortunately wide range of post-infection conditions. Of course we have no real idea what causes any case of PMR but it seems to be a series of insults to the body, including but not limited to viral infections and/or psychological stress, where eventually the last straw breaks the camel's back!

[MrsMarigold]

Thank you for this link. I think it is important for people to decide whether not the vaccine is for them or which vaccine to accept. The dysautonomia I developed during COVID and after vaccines. And some relatives and friends have developed autoimmune issues whether or not permanent who can say yet? Only to hope it is long Covid and has an ending somewhere.

Some folks seem to believe this is a by gone issue. It is not. Especially when you have grandkids like myself with long covid. I can’t speak for the entire US, but I can speak for much of the Southern area where I live. Not many people (compared to the heady Covid days) are getting the vaccine. Seems the pharmacies are advertising ad nausum for the availability of the vaccine. Last, it is important to note also how differently we react to vaccines as they can make our immune system overreact: I literally slept for a week after my first shingrix injection. My doctor said please do not get the second. Acupuncture years ago I tried as a feel good remedy for the fatigue of my lupus; it put me in bed for a week. Autoimmune disease as we all know is tricky business. And the decision for me NOT to be further vaccinated was difficult and comes with the price of declining invitations sometimes to places I deem risky. I am thankful for any information well researched regarding this issue. MM🌼

[HeronNS in reply to MrsMarigold]

I would never advise people not to get vaccinated. That has to be a choice made by the patient (and competent medical advice), but I thought this article interesting enough to share as we all wonder why we got PMR (or whatever) in the first place.

I fully intend to get my Autumn booster when it's available, but only if I can avoid Moderna. Other people have had the opposite experience, where Pfizer has caused a problem and Moderna has been fine, but the vast majority of people don't have anything beyond the usual 24 hour aches and pains, and most of the time not much of that.

Shingrix knocked me out for almost exactly 24 hours, starting a few hours after the shot. The second vaccination about six months later had a similar but shorter effect.

I should add that although I've had every covid vaccine available I still decline invitations to indoor gatherings, especially now that hardly anyone wears a mask. My biggest risk in fact is getting together with family, Consistently wearing an N95 or equivalent mask, fitted as closely as possible, is probably the single best thing any of us can do to avoid infection - from any airborne disease, not just SARS2!

[AtopicGuy]

Our immune systems are always working hard, repairing damage, fighting infections, and responding to vaccinations. It's really no surprise that they sometimes go wrong; nor that they often later correct themselves. It's tempting to think every instance of autoimmunity can be blamed on a particular challenge, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I am reminded of the huge controversy in the USA some years ago about mercury-based preservatives being used in vaccines. A very vocal lobby group emerged, claiming that rising rates of autism could be attributed to the mercury. Scientists had lots of proof it was not the case, but the battle became political any way. The uptake of vaccinations reduced, so the mercury was removed. No change in the rate of autism has followed.

Adjuvants are added to many vaccines to increase their effectiveness. They are designed to cause a little inflammation, to ensure the immune system is fooled into thinking the body is genuinely under attack when it is not. They get a lot of blame for side effects, but they're only doing their job. Those vaccines that don't need an adjuvant fully stimulate the immune system without one. Otherwise there would be no point.

Note that the referenced article uses a very broad definition of the word 'adjuvant': "Such environmental immune stimulators, or adjuvants, include among others: aluminium salts as in vaccines, various medical implants, as well as various infectious agents." So, basically, they are calling anything that may be suspected of prompting autoimmunity (including viruses and bacteria) "adjuvants". It is not putting all the focus on vaccines. Exposure to pollution or workplace chemicals springs to mind. The recent paper linking GCA to PM10s in the air is an example.

[HeronNS in reply to AtopicGuy]

Just thought this article interesting to add to our already long list of possible "last straws" which break the camel's back and lead to an ailment like PMR.

[AtopicGuy in reply to HeronNS]

It is interesting because of its unusual approach. For example, it mentions medical implants, including silicon ones. It is well known that they can induce chronic inflammation in some patients, presumably because the body eventually recognises the silicon as foreign and rejects it. The activation of the immune system is against the silicon, but can spill over into autoimmunity. The paper refers to the silicon as an "adjuvant", despite the fact it is designed not to cause inflammation.

[HeronNS in reply to AtopicGuy]

Makes it even more alarming that there are tens of thousands of poorly tested chemicals used in manufacturing all sorts of things we use daily. Amazing we, and other living beings, survive at all! Life seems endlessly adaptable.

[AtopicGuy in reply to HeronNS]

Indeed. Evolution has equipped us to deal with toxins, up to a point. Natural background radioactivity has always been with us, and produces many of the mutations that natural selection depends on. Insect bites, stings and snake venoms are obvious challenges. Then there's all the poisons that plants make to deter animals from eating them (unless they want us to spread their pollen or seeds in the process, of course). There are strands of our immune systems to deal with them all, and some of these strands are the ones that go wrong and cause autoimmunity; it's a balancing act.

[Jbobby]

interesting…. Are you saying that the Shingrix vax actually acted positively in your case by pushing PMR into remission? I suspect my PMR/GCA was triggered by 2 Astra Zeneca vaxes but can’t be sure of course. Dyou think that possible?

[HeronNS in reply to Jbobby]

It certainly didn't hurt. In early 2021 I had a major flare, I'd say the first real flare I'd had, other little setbacks being due to too low dosage. I was having a lot of trouble getting back down to my previously very low dose. After Shingrix late that year (second the following year) it seemed possible to taper steadily, albeit extremely slowly, again. That being said, it still took two more years to come completely off pred, but I was being particularly careful having unsuccessfully tried zero a few years earlier.

And yes, I believe that any vaccine could be a trigger, it all depends on the person and their own unique reaction to any vaccine. It doesn't seem possible to generalize about this.

[Jbobby in reply to HeronNS]

Thanks so much. V interesting. And thanks also to PMRpro. . Yes, I guess the triggers can be/are usually multiple and might include any vax….

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Jbobby]

ANY vaccine can irritate the immune system and send it into a tail spin - but most PMR/GCA patients can't identify a specific trigger - it may have been illness, injury, severe emotional, mental or physical stress, exposure to chemicals or environmental events. It is rarely one single thing either - it is an accumulation of things over years that stress the immune system until something is the straw that breaks the camels back and bang - it goes nuts.

[Jbobby in reply to PMRpro]

Thanks v much PMRpro. That makes sense.