This is not a medical question but I would love to hear your views. Should attacks on the Homeless be considered a Hate Crime?

[Blearyeyed]

This post is not a medical question, on pain, PMRGCA , or specific illness and medication but I do think it is an important issue to us all , relative to the side effects of Ill health and hope I you will read it and give me your views.

I am sitting in the UK watching Politics Live and one of today's questions of debate is ,

" Should attacks on the Homeless be considered a Hate Crime?"

Personally, I am surprised that they already aren't!

Worldwide, throughout history , the Homeless and the Disabled ( often the two conditions occur together) , have been treated with disgust and hate.

In my opinion, the treatment of these two groups could historically , and currently , be considered as the first groups that ever experienced Crimes of Hate.

Long before any of the religious , gender, ethnicity or sexuality issues arose in communities around the world the Homeless and the Disabled were being treated with hate and abused, with contempt and prejudice.

Often it was a double whammy , your disability caused you to be without work or shunned by family and society and that made you homeless, or long term Homelessness caused you ill health and violence caused your disability.

Exactly , how many centuries ( or millenia!!) do the Homeless have to have rocks ( and other horrible things) thrown at them, be verbally and physically abused, and shunned and ignored before the are officially recognised as a group suffering from Hate Crime!!

Any longer is too long for me , a call for Homeless and Disabled Hate Crime Laws worldwide seems urgent and essential to me.

But I would love to hear the thoughts of the people in our community and the site wide on this issue, and look forward to your replies.

Because , let's face it , many of the illnesses on this site could cause the slippery step from unemployment to homelessness for many without the right support, with Homeless people we should all be thinking , there but by the Grace of God ( or Fate) go I!

Looking forward to hearing your opinions

[PMRpro Ambassador]

Like you, I didn't realise it wasn't.

But is it a change in definition we are looking at? There has been an article on Sky News today about hate crime - and I caught the bit "... or is perceived by the recipient to be ...". Methinks that there lies a potential minefield. Someone could say something that another finds offensive or feels targetted by and make a complaint.

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Oh , thanks for getting the ball rolling.

Yes , the debate seems to have been based on a news article and speech made by a Senior Police Officer.

In it she implied that changes to the Hate Crime category could cause them lots more work.

That she would prefer to concentrate her resources on what she considered to be " real" crimes , like burglary , theft etc. And if more categories were added into the Hate Crime category, including the Homeless , although it would cause too much work on things that could just be considered as things that were just offensive based on personal judgement.

The standard definition of a hate crime is a verbal or physical attack based purely on malice and violent , physical prejudice with no gain for the attacker or provocation. Like the difference between racialism and racist hate crime.

That's why I think crimes of an openly physical or verbal nature on the Homeless or Disabled are " proper" Hate Crimes. They totally stem from prejudice and are acted on with malice with no personal gain for that attackers and are unprovoked by the victims.

The homeless are constantly being verbally abused, beaten, urinated on and hit with things or treated with insult and prejudice because they are homeless . The mentally and physically disabled also physically attacked and verbally abused from malice.

Like with racial , sexuality or religious prejudices , these do seem to be two groups to me whose experience of crime goes beyond ignorance and prejudice offenses based on an individuals view of something offensive into the realms of something we would all consider to be an hateful act and a "real" crime.

Thank you so much for taking part in the debate , it has definitely given me some food for thought today and reminded me that things could be worse. Imagine suffering with GCA and having to live on the street!!

[scats in reply to Blearyeyed]

I thought education was supposed to stop this kind of narrow minded bigotry.

I found that in some cases minds I fought all day at school to open were firmly shut again when they got home. We can only keep on trying.

[Blearyeyed in reply to scats]

I think it is an unfortunate state in the world we live in today that unless attacks on certain groups like the Homeless and Disabled are classed as " Hate Crimes" with the more prohibitive legal sentences and fines involved in it that many people will not consider thinking that what they are doing is wrong.

[Primarose in reply to scats]

I quite agree scats but we must, in the first instance put the blame on the parents.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Primarose]

Often it is the children trying to change the parents and other family members hateful behaviour because they have listened to people like the lovely scats!

Peer pressure doesn't help either , that were the awareness that you acts are taken seriously by police matter I suppose. It's often the thought that they could get in serious trouble for doing something that stops people joining in with their mates, old or young , and even actively makes them brave enough to persuade their friends not to do things in the first place.

But it is a shame you need to scare people into doing the right thing.

[Primarose]

I think that the term "hate crime" has been stereotyped to suit practically anything related to people who are targeted because they don't quite fit in with some of scum walking the streets, and anyone who attacks a homeless person is scum in my books.

My daughter has seen homeless folk being spat at and kicked while out for the evening. I have not witnessed any attacks myself.

I don't call it hate crime, it is a criminal offence and the offenders should be prosecuted accordingly.

The term "hate crime" is used far too loosely and has no real credibility IMHO.

e.g If I told my neighbour that her new hair do looked hideous she could say that that is hate. It has got all out of proportion now.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Primarose]

You have just given a perfect example of the difference between something that someone could take as offensive but is not a "Hate" offense , like insulting someone's hairdo.

And something that is an assault crime based on prejudice like spitting at and verbally insulting people in the street .

I think they want to include the Homeless in the 'Hate Crime" category because like the difference between a racial abuse and a racial hate crime , Homeless people and the Disabled suffer repetitive attacks based not just on prejudice or opinion but on hate by the same groups which can , and often do , escalate into physical violence and assault because the initial encounters are given no priority without a "hate" tag when they are reported.

The law can't fob of the justifiable complaints of vulnerable groups in society , and put their complaints at the back of list if there are rules there to make them take their complaints seriously.

Pretty sure you can still insult your neighbours do , bad dress sense or opinions without imprisonment . At least I hope so, or I would be in trouble!!

Thank you so much for answering.

[Primarose in reply to Blearyeyed]

That was my point, there needs to be a more precise categorization of the "term, hate crime.

I don't think that there are enough Police to handle these situations. Unless there is a murder or a ton of heroin involved they don't want to know.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Primarose]

Yes

I think that was the reason they were considering redoing the Hate Crime categories in the first place.

They don't just want to add yet more groups into the equation , but also properly define what is classed as a "Hate Crime" on these groups.

To create more balance but also to stop the confusion between what is an act of prejudice and what is a "Hate Crime" .

With the right criteria for what is a " Hate Crime" means many more vulnerable groups could be included in groups that could be victims of Hate Crime, but the burden of work would be the same because the police could tell people from all affected groups if an offense had happened to them without spending as much time time trying establish if it was a crime , like they do now.

Feel like the Senior Police Officer was just giving a preemptive strike against the changes and frightening people against it with the idea that their burglaries would not be investigated. When with a bit of thought she could have actually got involved in making the changes and improving things for everyone , including the Police.

Ooh thanks for the debate , it does make me feel better when I can distract myself from the pain and keep my brain working . xx

[scats in reply to Primarose]

It shouldn't need to be a police matter. We are all human we should have a culture that cares and supports.

It seems TV documentries can be influential at the moment, both the problems with plastics and cheap fashion have reached the public's conscience after programmes.

Now we need one on empathy and caring, but would the right people watch?

[Blearyeyed in reply to scats]

I agree TV seems to help in lots of campaigns about helping awareness in improving public behaviour .

It is just unfortunate the things like abuse against the Homeless and Disabled always get pigeon holes into current affairs or news programmes late at night which only get watched by the people who care anyway. Or get championed by older celebrities and politicians so young people don't watch them.

These issues of changing awareness for vulnerable groups need some more mainstream programming , with funky young or popular celebrities in primetime and need to be shown in Social Education ( whatever it's called now!) classes at school if we want some real change.

Don't forget this is a world wide issue too, the Homeless and Disabled get treated far worse in many Developing and Eastern/ East European Countries than they do here. Those countries definitely need to recognise the level of not just prejudice but violence and hate they happens for the Homeless in their societies ( often the prejudice is at a political, cultural level too) .

A worldwide classification of vulnerable groups and detailed definition of Hate Crime for all could help hit the message home to make people change.

[scats in reply to Blearyeyed]

Perhaps we're deluding ourselves. Perhaps we are not naturally a caring race. Perhaps to ensure the survival of your group you must fight to remove anyone different. Perhaps it's inbred over years of evolution.

Many animal species remove the runt and any disabled members, quite ruthlessly, to ensure survival of the group.

Evolution is ongoing with luck we will get past this stage.

[Blearyeyed in reply to scats]

Don't despair my friend!

Yes many species ditch the runts and push out others for survival .

But lots are really caring and create positive communities, like penguins.

Recent archaeology proved that Neanderthals actually cared for their aged in their communities , so we can't even put it down to evolution.

Civilisation, or sometimes lack of it.

If we remain penguins in a crowd of gulls we may just sway the tide.

If not, we can be happy in the knowledge that we do the right thing

Thanks so much for joining in , hope you are well .

[scats in reply to Blearyeyed]

Thanks for reminding me about the penguins. More thinking like penguins necessary, and they do walk like they have PMR!

[Blearyeyed in reply to scats]

Oh gosh, so glad , we can still giggle even during a serious debate.

That's why I love this group!

Thanks scats, you made my day.

Just going to waddle penguin style ( like Gangnam style, but less coordinated!!) into the kitchen to make a brew.

Gentle hugs BE xx

[SheffieldJane]

Yes of course it should be regarded as a hate crime!

I spent the last 6 years of my working life in the Law Courts though and was dismayed to see the “ hate” element of a crime negotiated away to obtain a guilty plea in return for a lesser sentence. This was mainly in cases of racial hate, perhaps an assault case that was aggravated by race, became just assault.

I guess it saved time and money.

We still have to press for what is right. Homelessness can happen to anyone, frighteningly easily and you are so vulnerable.

[Hidden in reply to SheffieldJane]

I fought the law & the law won !

[SheffieldJane in reply to Hidden]

Who shot the sheriff?

[Blearyeyed in reply to SheffieldJane]

I don't know , but they didn't shoot the Deputy !

FACT!!!!!

Love it guys !!

[Hidden in reply to SheffieldJane]

Think it was Bob Marley originally! Then Eric Clapton made sure!!

[Blearyeyed in reply to Hidden]

When you say Eric Clapton made sure do you mean it in like giving a double tap to a bad guy in a film just to make sure ?

Whatever , they let that darn Deputy escape and must try harder next time!!

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to SheffieldJane]

One daughter got horribly close and we had to buy her a flat to be sure she'd not end up on the street if she hadn't money for the rent. At least we get it back. And one of our property portfolio is let to a young woman with small children who often struggles to pay the rent in one on time. We look at it in a fairly relaxed manner - she has a guarantor and hasn't missed the rent yet. But I couldn't get stroppy with her about part of the rent being 2 weeks late and chuck her out. Fingers crossed it goes well.

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

So you know the difficulties from many sides of the debate.

I know in many countries in the world whole families are sleeping on the street.

The idea of children either our own grown up ones , or little ones , sleeping rough and then being treated horribly by passersby should be enough to have poor treatment of the homeless categorised as a 'Hate Crime' .

I think I will have to start thinking about Scats penguin walk again .

And I am definitely going to do my bit after really thinking on this issue for the Homeless this year as my Christmas donation. If I cannot donate my time as I used to I will definitely be supporting Shelter and The Salvation Army in the UK they do an amazing job at such a hard time of year for many .

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

Not sure about where you live - but by November all the helper places are filled for helping at the xmas meals in Edinburgh! Some book in the year before. Which does give one hope

[SheffieldJane in reply to PMRpro]

It is really not hard to imagine. They are just people like you and me who have had bad luck. There is something truly nasty in the air. I am sure we were kinder in the 70’s, nobody seems to give a stuff about others now. We have no decent leaders in the world.

[karools16 in reply to PMRpro]

3 years ago, my private landlady made me homeless, when my rent was late..I paid half, then the rest, but not good enough for her. She gave me notice and increased the rent by almost £100. I didn't have to sleep rough. Moved in with my soon-to-be 100 year lady, for 2 months, until the Housing Trust put me where I am now.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to karools16]

That is horrible - and just greedy. She obviously decided she wasn't getting enough rent but you can't put it up without a good justification. So she did it as soon as she had an excuse.

You were lucky though - and I hope your housing trust house is good value for money.

[karools16 in reply to PMRpro]

I am now in Sheltered Housing. Sheltered from???? No warden, alarms taken away, so have to get and pay privately, nag to get communal cleaning. My bungalow is very nice, but no privacy.Open door and everyone knows. I don't like living this way.No pets allowed. Communal garden. Am only 1 in our block of 7 interested in gardening. Still, I am VERY grateful that I have gas heating, whereas, previously, it was horrible storage.Yes, it is good value.The strange thing is;since I left, she hasn't been able to keep tenants...all have left! Now, it's said that the landlady's Mother is coming to live there, with all mod cons/renovations being made. Hmmmmm.....

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to karools16]

Hmmmm indeed...

[Blearyeyed in reply to karools16]

Are you alright now?

[karools16 in reply to Blearyeyed]

Yes thanks. See reply to PMRpro.

[Blearyeyed in reply to karools16]

Did you already suffer with PMR or GCA before all of that happened?

How do you think it affected your health?

I am so sorry you went through such a stressful time.

At least , even though I can see your housing situation is still not ideal you are trying to see the best of it and keep your spirits up.

Please take care and keep warm .

[karools16 in reply to Blearyeyed]

Yes, GCA 13 YEARS, AND NOW ADDISON'S. i CAN'T REALLY SAY IF/HOW IT AFFECTED MY HEALTH. It was an ongoing battle between landlady, estate agent and myself to get things done/repaired .I loved living in a village, and I had a lovely garden. When you live alone, you just get on with things, and I do.Thanks.

[Blearyeyed in reply to karools16]

We'll take care and enjoy life as much as you can.

I live in a village and I know , although lovely, since being ill living in a village has made coping alot harder.

It is harder to travel to health care providers or get the support you need locally.

No easy access to what you need or regular transport puts more of a toll on you when you need to do some of the simplest things like going to appointments or doing the shopping .

And it can be more isolating.

That's why I love this site and the people in this group , as well as advice, they make dealing with day to day alot easier.

[karools16 in reply to Blearyeyed]

Absolutely!

[Hidden]

Ohhhhhh boy, be careful, Blearyeyed! You'll get told off for starting a non PMR/GCA discussion! There are a few people here that believe this site should be restricted to ONLY PMR/GCA discussions. ...but carry on, I'm interested to see where this goes! 😉

[Blearyeyed in reply to Hidden]

I think it is ok , PMRpro joined in first .

Plus in a way this is a PMR/GCA issue because often it is the side effects of health issues like chronic pain related illnesses that can cause people to suffer from homelessness and mental health issues.

Who knows if one of the people you walk by shouting out , homeless and in pain , somewhere in the world, didn't end up on the streets because undiagnosed PMR etc. caused them to loose their job and home.

And imagine the agony of having our illnesses and having to cope with it on the streets with no medical support.

Bet it is happening everywhere , even in developed Countries like the UK or US and Canada etc. , makes me feel even more conscious of how lucky I am really.

Thanks for joining in, hope you are well.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

I have nothing official to do with the site - I am a patient too. We've had a few threads that never mentioned PMR!

[Hidden in reply to PMRpro]

Yes... but some people get told off for doing so. They'd never tell you off PMRpro! 😨

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Hidden]

Maybe not in public - but I have had such conversations. I'm sure you can imagine the response they got...

Though to be fair, I wasn't blocked.

[Hidden in reply to PMRpro]

🤣🤣🤣. I can!

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Ooh sorry,

Thought you were a patient but also an administrator.

I hoped adding that it wasn't medical in the title would mean people take or leave the post as they wanted.

A bit of brain training , mental exercise , I find that helps distract me from the pain and the PmR/GCA blues from being stuck inside the house.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

I was at one time - until one of the above mentioned conversations. I take the view that no-one has to join in if they don't approve. There is a box to tick to follow - no tick, no follow...

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Lovely,

And so sorry that you don't do administration anymore.

You always bother to check out our posts and give advice when you can .

You watch over us all really well , even without the administrator tag.

I am sure everyone would love to say thank you for looking after us.

Gentle hugs BE xx

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

I unofficially moderate another forum - and I have no hesitation in reporting something that doesn't belong. On both forums I have read every post since I joined (providing I got a notification) and on the other one I had read every post since its inception before I posted! I must be mad - but it is my volunteering bit, can't really get involved in support groups so I do this instead. Keeps me out of mischief since I stopped working...

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Thank you so much for doing it too.

Your way of keeping the Pred Induced Brain Mush at bay too I guess.

And such a great way to do by helping others the way you can.

There is hope for civilisation after all!!

Take care and keep, keeping us all safe.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

Certainly does - earlier today I was "accused" (in the nicest possible way by a longtermer) of writing "War and Peace" in response to a question on the other forum. Someone who didn't know me asked if I was out of breath after one reply last week!

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

If you have to write War and Peace to help bring Peace to someone's mind it's worth waging war on your keyboard.

[yogabonnie in reply to PMRpro]

hahaha

[Hidden in reply to Blearyeyed]

Please don't get me wrong... I have no issue with your post and find the topic quite interesting! ✌🏻

[Blearyeyed in reply to Hidden]

Didn't think you minded the post at all. I know you love subjects of all sorts in your rants page.

Realised you were just making me aware that some people only like to have medical issues raised.

Said it was not medical in the title so people could take it or leave it as the liked.

Hope , others like me , found it useful as a way to distract themselves from the PMR/GCA and the blues of being stuck indoors. A bit of mental therapy!

Love that you worried for me . XX

[scats in reply to Hidden]

Best avoid politics and religion I think!

[Hidden in reply to scats]

just blows my mind that some subjects are acceptable and others are not... because it's soooo subjective; if you ask 10 people, what's acceptable, you'll get 10 differnt answers! 🤷🏻‍♀️

[scats in reply to Hidden]

Totally agree but that's how we upset people before.

[Patience47 in reply to Hidden]

Exactly

[yogabonnie in reply to Hidden]

that's just me I suspect!! ha.

[Hidden in reply to yogabonnie]

🤣🤣🤣🤣 As my Mom used to say, "Your like trouble... looking for a place to happen!"

[Blearyeyed in reply to Hidden]

She must have known me too!!

Hope you had a good day today my chum!

[Hidden in reply to Blearyeyed]

👍🏻 She knew everyone and had "their number!" Funny thing was, she was usually right!!! 😳

[Blearyeyed]

Perhaps you would get more convictions of assault or willingness by the CPS to go for convictions for crimes on other vulnerable groups like the Homeless if they know they have more chance of a guilty plea ( via negotiations) if those groups do get " Hate Crime" status like racial and religious groups. Stronger legal standing for all!!

Thanks for joining in . Hope you are feeling well.

[SheffieldJane]

Hate adds hugely to a sentence. This ghastly victimisation of homeless people needs to be shamed out of existence.

[Blearyeyed in reply to SheffieldJane]

Especially as many of them could have serious health issues too . Often a big factor in their homelessness.

Thanks for your input from the side of professional experience it is interesting to see how categories help to cement convictions.

Have a great evening

[Grants148]

Of course any abuse of those less fortunate than ourselves should be treated as a hate crime,we are ,or used to be a Christian country ,with Christian values and thank goodness there are organisations and charities that give help and compassion to the homeless and to people with disabilities,long may it continue.

[Patience47 in reply to Grants148]

Who decides what is a hate crime???

[Blearyeyed in reply to Patience47]

They have a Commission at the moment looking into , collecting information from all different agencies and official bodies to make the decisions on what will constitute a "hate crime" and which groups should be included as people who get attacked not just from prejudice but from hate.

Members of the public can contact the commission to add their views too.

[Rimmy]

Thanks Blearyeyed

- the relationship between 'disability' health and homelessness should really be obvious to anyone who has thought about this 'subject' - let alone experienced it !! OZ is no different we have our share of people who seem to have no idea that their 'good fortune' isn't necessarily anything they have 'earned' or 'deserved' or a result of any perceived personal 'superior' attributes. I think any dislike, disdain or at worst 'hatred' basically stems from the cultivation of this individualism which mediates capitalism - the idea that those who 'succeed' are intrinsically 'better' than those who end up at the 'bottom' of the social hierarchy - and no surprises that globally women, people with a disability and multifarious 'disadvantaged' and 'disempowered' people are found there. The cultivation of 'hate' is one way of enabling the wealthier and more powerful to attribute the circumstances of these people to some failure of character or behaviour - to assume they are just 'bad' or 'hopeless' or 'lazy' people. The arrogance, egoism and total lack of empathy is shocking and just highlights how a lack of understanding and education about the social and political contexts which result in homelessness and exclusion really operate. The question of criminalising this behaviour is therefore very important - even if it just initially encourages people to think much harder about it and their own behaviour.

As far as I am concerned this subject is very relevant for this forum - after all here we must surely share a realisation of what it is to have one or more 'disabling' condition(s) which might all too easily tip many of us into situations we might never have anticipated ... let alone being older which is itself a 'category' or characteristic not generally regarded (western societies at least) as at all desirable.

Best wishes to all

Rimmy

[Blearyeyed in reply to Rimmy]

Well put my friend.

And glad to here the view from the other side of the world.

Hugs for the day.

[Mks9558]

It is so true though- the slippery slope the lack of health care could put one on- or the effects of a super high dose of Meds. Even in developed countries- the struggle of health care in the US for millions is not lost on many this election season.

This forum does wonders to help people cope... I think a discussion on how to stop the downward slope is warranted!

And if any had advice for me on getting through the next two weeks on 80 mgs of Prednisone I am all ears- even though they are ringing loudly...

[Blearyeyed in reply to Mks9558]

Thank you for the view from across the pond.

Good luck with the large doseage , keep an eye on your side effects , have lots of water, rest when you need to without feeling guilty for doing it.

Sometimes if he gently move your head to your shoulder and leave it there for a minute the ringing subsides.

You can do that lying down if it is too hard on your neck to stay that way , sometimes putting some light pressure on your ear and the side of your head with your hand for a while calms it alittle.

No quick moves , turn your head slower and if you want to look behind you turn from the waist or your full body , quick moves , increase buzzing and dizziness.

Gently rotate joints to reduce pain and have little walk each hour in the house to keep circulation going when you have fatigue.

Don't overdo it in exercise terms , make the family take up the burden of domestic tasks.

Try getting up out of chairs or first thing in the morning slower ( move gradually from pillow to sitting back , sitting up on bed, at side of bed then up) after a drink of water, reduces the buzzing as well as dizziness.

Try sleeping with your back and head more raised.

[Patience47]

One should be punished for the crime ...not the motive. Hate crimes = more PC.

[Blearyeyed]

I agree that PC has gone mad in certain parts of society , and PC often annoys me too.

I sometimes think PC is often used to hide the troubles going on and the things that really need to be addressed get brushed under the carpet because people pretend to do something using PC language.

It's actually things like Crimes on the vulnerable because of Hate that got brushed aside by people using PC language to try and prove they had done something to help.

I think the point of a hate crime is that it was an act unprovoked by the victim totally motivated by Hate and malice based on prejudice and also used to encourage others to do and feel the same.

Like people who go from beginning to insult or throw rubbish at someone or graffiti someone home or car because of who they are is an offense of prejudice.

It rises to a Hate Crime if the person repetitively treats a victim with abusive or violent behaviour based on their violent feelings of prejudice alone or from extreme malice, encourages others to join in with that behaviour , causes someone actual bodily harm only because of their prejudices .

Like people who regularly seek out Homeless people to attack verbally and physically them for fun, or cause them severe physical harm because they don't like them for what they are . It also includes the wanton destruction of that person's property or home if not just thinking of a person in the Homeless category. The Long term sick , Elderly and Disabled often suffer this form of attack.

There are many crimes already were the motive means a higher sentence for the same act , like the difference between Murder and Manslaughter .

Have a great day and thanks for joining in

[piglette in reply to Blearyeyed]

Some Professor at Oxford complained to the police that Amber Rudd’s addressing parliament about immigrants was a Hate crime, it turned out he had not even listened to the speech. Probably read about it in the Daily Mail! I think it is people like that who have caused the problem we have. They waste police time and trivialise the meaning of hate crimes.

[Blearyeyed in reply to piglette]

Unfortunately the people in Media and Politics on any level throwing around the term Hate Crime for their own gains is often what makes us in the General Public shy away from changes to the actual system and making things safer for the vulnerable.

Divide and conquer isn't it.

There is a big difference between prejudice and Hate Crime.

Unfortunately, many groups do have to suffer both.

I think any change that recognises that and helps us and the authorities to do something about it can only be for the good of us all in the long run.

Thanks for joining in and take care.

[Hellyowl]

Thank you for raising this. Myself and my OH have worked in homelessness, we are all frighteningly close to the street, a small financial loss is all that many people need to suffer. Hate crime needs sorting, but generally I think any one in a more powerful situation inflicting emotional or physical injury relating to things the other can't really change, race, belief, poverty gender is hate. The homeless come in for a lot of hate. Smile and say hello as you pass them, even if you don't believe in giving or can't afford it. Just an acknowledgement they are human can be important. You never know they might have a chronic illness too.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Hellyowl]

Great advice and thanks for your hard work over the years.

Take care

[Linda369]

Most definitely. A lot of these unfortunate people have issues that have left them in this terrible state to begin with. What right has somebody more fortunate than them to look down on them and judge them. Let alone abuse them. Try trading places with them and they might realise how hard their lives are. Anybody found abusing homeless people should be jailed!

[PMRpro Ambassador]

It is said that some phenomenal proportion of the population is just two months from being on the street - serious illness that stopped them working would mean they couldn't pay their rent or mortgage...

Many people are losing a roof over their heads simply because of the delays involved in the roll-out of universal benefit - I see the advantages of it, but if you are already on benefit of some sort, why on earth do you not just roll over to UB from one month to the next? You shouldn't have to wait. Few landlords are as kind as we are.

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

If you look at the system worldwide , especially in Developing Nations , many of the people who are Homeless are because they are shunned for their disabilities.

Many of them , unbelievably , also work full time everyday but don't make enough money to have home , they can only afford to eat and clothe themselves.

In many countries, there are cultural reasons that make the main part of society Hate certain groups and think they deserve to be Homeless . Some people in Developed Countries often look on our Homeless and think the same way too.

So from that perspective , when they see a Homeless person they believe that they deserve to be like that and deserve to be insulted, hated and in turn they don't care if those people get hurt or abused.

In Global terms , Developed Countries , giving Hate Crime recognition to attacks on the Homeless and Disabled starts the domino effect in other countries to be aware that the way they treat people is wrong and needs to change too.

[Yellowbluebell]

I hesitated about commenting on this because I worked in the legal system and am very opionated about what I feel is hate against vulnerable people. I worked for a mental health trust and I saw what the human race in general did to these people. I also witnessed their treatment from so called professionals, doctors and nurses included and have on far too many occasions had to deal with the staff my trust employed in court because of the seriousness of their behaviour, which in some cases caused death. I have also seen how our legal system deals with the mentally ill and homeless and had to go into a woman’s prison because the judge put a seriously mentally ill woman in jail rather than deal with the real problem. She then went on to attack other prisoners and had to be taken to solitary. The guards were unable to help her because of time and other prisoners were bathing her daily and helping her eat. Shes now in a care home suitable for her needs but she shouldn’t have been put in that position at all.

Any treatment of a disadvantaged person, be it mental health, homelessness or race is a hate crime in my opinion. I am also of the opinion that how we bring our children up is important because we pass on our views of the world in general everyday to them. I don’t know how to solve these problems and believe me I have tried for many years but we need our legal system to change and deal with hate crime effectively.

Sorry about the rant but Blearyeyed you just woke up the dragon in me!! Oh and if the powers to be don’t like this topic then hard luck this subject is appropriate in that we could all end up in a similar position to the many homeless and disabled in our community.Debby

[Blearyeyed in reply to Yellowbluebell]

It is really interesting to hear the issues from the side of someone who has worked within the system like you and some others who have joined in the debate.

It definitely seems that it is only by legitimising the offenses against some vulnerable groups under the category of a Hate Crime that it is the only way that many people that work within the system will not push the needs and complaints of these vulnerable groups under the carpet , and address their own prejudices too.

It is such a shame that these groups need to be put under a legal category for their complaints to be seen more seriously and given some priority.

A Hate Crime tag, means the Powers that Be have to listen and make more effort to record a complaint , even if it is not physically investigated.

I don't think most people realise that there is a big difference between reported crimes and those that go on the record , and not all recorded crime is actively investigated , but just kept as evidence to prove that something of a lesser nature has happened before if things escalate.

It actually helps legal services no what to do in a particular case or manage to get a conviction at the right level.

Without written guidelines and acknowledgement that some groups like the Homeless or Disabled can be victims of Hate , and possible professional criticism for not following the guidelines,there reports of abuse will continue to be unrecorded until it is too late.

Thanks so much for your work over the years and adding to the debate.

Hope the chance of a rant hasn't made you feel bad.

[Yellowbluebell in reply to Blearyeyed]

I always enjoy a rant with or without the pred!!! I think that’s why I did the job to be honest!! My problem joining in with the discussion was that I have a definite opinion on this subject from personal experience in the job and I have no tolerance for any other view than it is wrong that we treat these groups of people like a lower form of life.

We as sufferers from this disease know that depression is horrible but luckily we have family and friends supporting us but living with depression whilst on your own is a totally different matter and often leads to all sorts of other problems. Sorry again because I have just had another rant but this subject always makes me mad!! (Or madder than usual) Debby

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Yellowbluebell]

"I have no tolerance for any other view than it is wrong that we treat these groups of people like a lower form of life."

Which - I venture to suggest - is how it should be? There but for the grace of god go we all. And how would any of us feel if we were on the receiving end of such treatment?

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Absolutely!!

[Blearyeyed in reply to Yellowbluebell]

Not a rant , very insightful.

We have all been thinking about how horrible it would be to go through our illness and the side effects without the help and support we have.

Having to cope with it while living on the streets because I'll health made you Homeless , and then be treated with prejudice and Hate is something too hard to comprehend.

I do understand why people have issues with Political Correctness . But I think PC issues and prejudice and Hate issues are two different subjects.

PC language and behavioural guidelines are too often used by some in authority ( especially in Government or Politics) as loopholes , to hide their true opinions , their personal prejudices and the hidden agendas. If they use the right terms they think it excuses them from inappropriate attitudes or creates the illusion that they are doing something and they care , when they actually do or change very little. Gosh I am in rant mode now!!

Sometimes the people who are the least PC in their use of language in normal conversation , are often the most caring and unprejudiced people around who go out on a limb to help others no matter what their background. They just culturally don't come from a background that PC words or guidelines mattered .

There are a lot of older people who have lived their lives being good to and helping people all around them , and have then been metaphorically slapped in the face for using the wrong language without knowing it , or giving someone a hug or slap on the back without ever meaning to be inappropriate.

You can understand why if they think that terms are being changed again and they don't get told the reasons why , and then Senior Police Officers and certain people in the Media try and put it down using the "PC card" to try and discredit it , that they are suspicious about the changes in Hate Crime or anything else.

Officials , deliberately confusing the two different debates to fuel their own agendas and divide opinion so that we fight each other instead of fighting for what we all want , to make the world a better place for everybody , that's what really unleashes my Inner Dragon.

[Yellowbluebell in reply to Blearyeyed]

I agree. It’s sometimes hard to put things into words but you have nailed it. All I ever wanted at work was for people in our care to feel that they were equal and part of our society but when people are bigoted there isn’t anyway to make them see sense. There are some really good people in the legal and medical system but sometime the bad ones win. We very rarely hear about all the good that’s done.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Yellowbluebell]

I think it's because when people do the right thing just because it is right everyday (and with no hidden agenda or because they want to be seen as helpful) it doesn't get the recognition it deserves . So much good is done , it is just unfortunate that rules have to be created to make some people be as good and considerate as others.

[PMRpro Ambassador]

And then there's this:

theguardian.com/commentisfr...

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Oh gosh,

I am not even going to walk through that door!!!

Wether it's the front with the concierge or the poor peoples entrance at the back !

I will leave you to start the debate on this equally controversial but important issue PMRPro.

Perhaps you could start a post on it?

What I will say is it seems to be the way of the world , it's the same with everything , homes , health care , education , there seems to be one standard for one and another for the rest .

And many of us have suffered from the two door system in health care over the years I am sure.

Hadn't seen that article yet, so thanks for highlighting it , it was eye opening .

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

But it is actually part of the same problem - things that can lead to homelessness...

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

It is , that's true .

There are so many aspects to everything aren't there , it's suprising how much impact things around us have on our way of life.

And how quickly the bad stuff sneeks up on us too.

Although, with this sort of illness , bad doesn't have to sneek , it could run up with a horn and a drum to me at the moment I still couldn't get away fast enough.

Have a great weekend and thanks again

[karools16 in reply to PMRpro]

Interesting article. I am a South African, by birth. Father British. I was a child growing up in the Apartheid years, so know what segregation did to millions.In 1968, a S.African friend and I came to England on a working holiday. At the gates of Buckingham Palace, we were spat on, when someone, in the crowd, noticed the SA badge on my friend's coat. After living in England for 18 years, I am not always 'accepted' by everyone. once they hear the accent.Strange but true.

[Blearyeyed in reply to karools16]

Yes you would have thought we would have learnt the lessons of segregation history and how it impacts on everybodys lives for decades to come by now wouldn't you.

You will always be accepted and cared for here though.

Take care.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

Not just segregation, though I suppost Hitler was also segregationist... An Italian friend has just posted this quote on FB:

"“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

― Hermann Goering"

It has been forgotten...

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Yes,

Most of the dictators used years of segregation and hate propoganda against specific groups in society as a was of playing the "Blame Game" to get power.

That was an interesting choice of quotation from your friend.

Was it to do with a particular topic of debate , or thinking about the war and upcoming Rememberance activities.

It certainly explains why the population go along with the choices of leaders , although I don't know many people who choose to quote someone like Goering anymore without making a particular political point.

Thanks you are keeping my brain going PMRpro , you are like therapy for the brain fog. I have passed on your link from the Guardian to a number of my other friends who are in various debates at the moment. Still astonished , but sadly , not surprised.

Have a great day. Do you feel like your home is about to blow away where you are too?

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

I suspect it may have been relating to part of the current Italian government and the other side of the pond. But in fact, when you are aware and look at developments throughout the world - very apposite ...

[Blearyeyed in reply to PMRpro]

Yes, why is it "WE" never seem to learn .

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Blearyeyed]

Human nature and biology - the generation that experienced it first hand or slightly removed grow old and die off. Soon a generation appears who have no knowledge - and who don't believe the old know anything. That is particulalry the case in the UK I think. And there are some hard truths here if you look:

theguardian.com/commentisfr...

The belief that the past was better and we are the best is a cruel illusion.

[Patience47]

IMHO hate crimes will lead to a a very slippery slope. You can't legislate feelings.

[Blearyeyed in reply to Patience47]

You can't that's true and luckily we have the right in this country ( UK) to have our own feelings both positive and negative , and have our own say and opinions on things.

It is only when those feelings or opinions are turned into harmful actions against others or to encourage other people to do harmful actions that the law gets involved.

I am being to wonder wether they would be better coming up with a better term than 'Hate Crime' for what these laws are against. Without giving it that sort of emotive, throw away, title people would get behind the meaning of the legislation more.

[Hidden in reply to Blearyeyed]

"Hate Crime" laws could be passed forever! It's whether they are enforceable realistically! Wrong naming! Certainly !