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PMRGCAuk
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Flu shingles jab

What’s feeling about this with PMR GCA ... never had flu jab doctors seem keen to give flu and shingles jab..., all surgeries seen so keen are they expecting problems this winter??

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Hi,

If you have a compromised immune system, which we do, then a flu jab is recommended. I started having one pre GCA because I was a carer for hubby, all the way through GCA and still do.

Never had any adverse affect, neither do most people, just a few unlucky souls!

GCA/PMR is enough of a struggle at times, you certainly don’t want flu on top of that!

As for shingles, well that’s a bit more contentious, although the new Shingrix vaccine is okay I think. Most would recommend to steer clear of the previous one - Zovirax.

Sure you will get plenty of answers, but of course at the end of the day it’s your choice.

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Thanks for that - seem to be one of those that react to most things - never had flu jab - it’s taken over three months to get over cataract op and still not there yet. So not quite sure right now.

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I think you mean Zostavax? Zovirax appears to be a topical treatment.

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Yes I did! I hate inanimate objects that think for themselves 😏

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Ah, one of those devices, eh? My laptop doesn't do that, but I have a little tablet which does. Useful at times, but not so much at other moments! I looked it up because I thought maybe it was UK name, brand names vary so often.

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I have the same problem - replying to Daisychain I intended to say prednisolone - after clicking reply I saw it said predictive!!!! Duh!!

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Call me cynical but they get paid per jab. Also, they have to record every one given, report them and have to get above a certain % of the eligible practice population or they don’t get the income for that area of commissioning. GP practices are businesses. I know that the practice I worked for wouldn’t have bothered as it takes so much time, effort and staff costs, if it wasn’t worth their while.

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The thing is though SnazzyD , yes you are right GPs have had to become businesses but I'd rather my GP practice got paid for my flu jab than the going to the chemist / supermarket who will get payment ( and I believe get paid more per jab) but then the practice has to use their time imputting the info from the pharmacy onto the patients record but not getting any payment for it...Di

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I agree

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I always have my flu jab - the only time my husband DIDN'T have his jab he got flu which turned to pneumonia and it took 6 months to sort out. He does have very dodgy lungs - which is why I see it as right I should minimise his risks too by having my jab. I have had real flu once - I was younger and fitter then and I still spent over a week in bed and it was 3 weeks before I felt anything like.

However, I wouldn't have the shingles jab. The original one, Zostavax, actually lists PMR and shingles as possible adverse events! The new one, Shingrix, hasn't yet been tested out in patients with autoimmune disorders and there is some concern that it may stimulate the immune system too much so I'd rather wait until someone else has tried it out!!!

I'm not QUITE as cynical as Snazzy but I think she isn't far off the mark!

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I hasten to add that it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have it, just a comment about the zeal with which patients are vaccinated.

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Oh yes - fully understand that! I recommend the flu jab for everyone here.

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I am not disagreeing, but have some skepticism on how much vaccine has a probability to help. There are, I read more then 100 different variants of flu virus, and vaccine has 3 or 4 of those. So from the mathematical prospective it has 3-4% chance to protect. Probability is increased by "guessing" that variant(s) from Australia's flu season 6 months ago will be dominant in the northern hemisphere this year. Apparently a good guess, since it increases probability to 15% in a bad year and 30-40% in a good year range. Another (negative) factor for me is that vaccines for over 65 are made with adjuvants, which apparently has links to Alzheimer's disease , so everyone has to pick their poison.

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Well, here's how our amazing bodies work.

Our immune systems manufacture antibodies that are specific to each virus and bacillus it encounters. Since each bug has it's own shape, size, indentations, protrusions etal. Our immune systems have to learn what each bug looks like, and manufacture an antibody that will kill it. Sometimes we make them fast enough so that we don't even know we've been exposed. Then we don't get sick. We might feel a little "off" for a day or so, because our immune system is churning out fresh antibodies to meet the invading army.

Sometimes, we don't make the antibodies fast enough, and we get sick. And sometimes people can't manufacture them fast enough before the whole body's systems are overwhelmed and break down, killing the patient.

So what a vaccination does it teach our immune systems how to manufacture the needed antibody, so that the time to ramp up production of antibodies is cut.

Imagine that a virus or a bacillus is like a key. All the keys have different bumps, indentations and wrinkles.

When we get a vaccination, it's like the lock the key slips into. If the vaccine matches the bug exactly, it's a perfect fit. The lock is the anti-body.

When the key (bug) slips into the lock (antibody), the bug dies.

Now, sometimes, the bug has mutated a bit and isn't exactly like the one our immune system already knows how to kill. If the differences aren't too great (sometimes someone else's key fits the lock on your front door, too), the antibody will be close enough to perfect to keep the invader at a minimum. That's when you get a mild case.

Other times, the mutations are too great, and while we've been immunized for this bug's 3rd cousin, the antibody we know how to make is just not going to do the job.

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I understand the concept of how vaccines work. To continue with the same metaphor, there are 4 doors each season and you have a bag of 100 keys (viruses) ... You can only pick 4 keys from the bag and try to open all doors. What are your chances to get the correct key? Very small. That was my point.

Second point is that you are exposed to adjuvants, which not only may cause Alzheimer's in a long run, but also will enhance the reaction to ANY virus that you currently have in a system, which is why some people get sick after vaccination. But everyone has to make a decision on what risk they are willing to live with, and it is not as simple as it is presented.

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From The Telegraph - Title

______________________________

"Flu jab protected just one in 10 pensioners last year, amid concerns new vaccines will run out"

_______________________________

"Last year's flu jab protected just one in 10 pensioners, new figures show, amid concerns new boosted vaccinations could run out.

An evaluation by Public Health England (PHE) reveals that the vaccines given to millions of patients last winter had little effect.

The worst protection was among over 65s - the age group most vulnerable to flu - with effectiveness of 10.1 per cent and none at all against some key strains.

Figures among younger adults were little better at 12.2 per cent, with rates of 26.9 per cent among children, the provisional end-of-season estimates show.

The failings contributed to the worst flu season for seven years, with 15,000 deaths from the virus, around twice the average figure, and the worst NHS performance on record.

_______

Last month the main supplier of the vaccine for adults below the age of 65 was hit by delays, with manufacturers Sanofi warning that “a few thousand” deliveries had been set back two weeks.

In addition, PHE has admitted that the vaccinations for the elderly will not protect against one of the key strains last winter. While those for younger adults will protect against a strain called B-Yamagata - known as “Japanese flu” - which became the dominant strain in hospital admissions last January, the jab for the elderly does not protect against this strain.

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Better than 0%, just hope that it is better this year.

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I am not sure what the exact method is that they use to measure effectiveness of flu vaccines, but I think what it means that 90% of people that got vaccine got a flu anyway, only 10% were protected, which is terrible.

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Last year was renowned for a vaccine that did not cover all the flu viruses very successfully. Just hopefully it will do a bit better this year.

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Let's hope so... Single dose with less preservatives is the way to go if one decides to get vaccine.

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I don’t like the pressure ...each time I pop into the surgery they almost drag me in for a jab and today had a call from the surgery to say my doc was coming tomorrow to give shingles and flu jab ? No discussion and for now have refused. I might be over 70 but still ..... I like to think about it.... so much pressure!!

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There is a cynical Government plot to keep old people healthy and out of hospital. They know that statistically the flu jab works, so they encourage GPs to give it using the only language some of them understand. Money.

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Hi

Yes it’s advisable to have the flu jab. I’ve been having it since PMR started in May 2016 , as recommended by mr Dr.

The vaccination you are given is not a live one, so it doesn’t actually infect you. I don’t know about shingles though.

Best to be protected from these things as our immune system is compromised.

Nothing worse than flu xx well maybe !!

Good luck

Carole

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I recommend you have the flu jab. A bout of flu is always debilitating, far more so when your immune system is compromised. If you don't like the bossy attitude of your GP practice and having it there would mean loss of face, you can probably have it done at a local branch of Boots or some other pharmacist.

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I was told after having the shingles jab that it didn't prevent shingles you just got over the after affects quicker, I wish I'd never had the injection as have read of studies saying it could cause PMR.

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I never usually have flu jab but I have this year.I also had the pneumonia jab.I just had sore arms for a few days.The thought of catching proper flu on top of pmr made me do it!☺

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The surgeries are probably keen because they are paid pro rata for every 'flu vaccine they administer! But at the end of the day it's your choice. I take high dose ascorbic acid every day and since starting to do this have not had a sniff of a cold, a cough or flu in spite of living with two men who bring back all sorts of viruses. I also teach one to one and am regularly sneezed on by coughing, snivelling, spluttery students. (One of those men is my son btw!)

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I think they should be paid for flu jabs, why should they do it for free? They are using their time.

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On the face of I don't object to doctors being paid to do 'flu vaccinations, although I think it's probably more often the practice nurses who actually do the deed. That said their salaries should reflect that they do this; then they would not get tied up knots with ethics and poor interpretation of/deliberately skewed statistics from marketing by pharmaceutical companies. What I do object to is these things being pushed at people year after year with the comments about how "this really is the one that's going to work" and "this year's flu strain is far more lethal than ever before". So far it never has been. Surely it would be far better if doctors could be trained to practice functional medicine and advise on preventative healthcare in the hope of ensuring that patients build up their own strong healthy immune system.

Would I personally have a flu jab? No I wouldn't. I have no wish to be injected with....

1) aluminium (linked to Alzheimers, although I believe that sugar is the bigger culprit), 2) mercury (invitation to join the Mad Hatter's tea party declined with thanks)

3) formaldehyde (I'm not sufficiently moribund yet!)

4) antibiotics (what more?)

Sorry everyone - I am being very beligerent today - will be back in my shy retiring box tomorrow with the lid just open a tiny crack so I can breathe!

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Remember 1918-1919 Spanish flu when more people died of flu than had been killed in the First World War. They reckon it could have been as many as 50 million. Do we really want that again?

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Of course we don't, but I question whether vaccines will make the difference between that happening or not - logically it's impossible to protect against a virus which is constantly and unpredictably changing. :o)

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They think that a universal vaccine will soon be available. It is a matter of trials and then licensing. We got rid of smallpox with a vaccine, a particularly nasty disease.

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But in those days most people were seriously malnourished and so ripe for attacking by a malicious virus.

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Elizabeth I had smallpox! We are slowly getting rid of polio now too, plus a lot of other diseases such as diphtheria, scarlet fever..... I am extremely glad that vaccinations have been discovered over the years.

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Thimerosal does contain mercury. I have checked the vaccine available this year in my area and it appears that one being offered does contain thimerosal and an alternative has had some sort of formaldhyde treatment. Last year I went to my doctor and she gave me a vaccine which was in a single dose packet. I am sure those single dose vials do not contain preservatives. You could ask if you can get that kind. I, too, would be very reluctant to have annual vaccinations which contain these additives.

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We actually have formaldehyde naturally in our body. Aluminium salts have been used in vaccines for the last 70 years. The antibiotic is needed to prevent bacterial contamination during manufacture. Also Thimerosal has been used in various vaccines and drug products since the 1930s.

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Doesn't make it right, actually. Asbestos was used for years as a fire break in buildings, an ingredient in wall coverings, furnace pipe insulation, many other applications, and now we are dealing with the consequences. I don't think it's a good idea to put aluminum into the bodies of people as we do not know exactly why there seems to be an association between aluminum and Alzheimers, what is cause, what is effect.... We also know that mercury is not great for us, and maybe a little bit once in a while is okay, but we are now subjecting people to a "little bit" annually. Do we really know what this means in the long run? I don't think we do. It also doesn't take into account other exposures individuals may have experienced from other sources over the years. I am a believer in vaccinations, especially the ones which protect children. I get my tetanus+ shot every ten years. I am not necessarily a believer in the inevitability of the extras which are being injected into us every year.

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Vaccines have had the additions for many many years and only tiny amounts are used. Why do you mention asbestos? I am not sure that vaccines contain that. They do say if they had used asbestos in the twin towers they would not have collapsed like they did though, it is a terrific fire protector just unfortunate its side effects. Rather like pred! We do use aluminium foil and aluminium saucepans still. I suppose like pred it is a toss up, which do you want a vaccine or the disease. I know there are a lot of diseases which I have been vaccinated against I definitely would not like to have!!

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An example to suggest that saying something is fine because it's been used for years isn't necessarily true. What about lead in paint and gasoline? We used lead in those materials for decades, but no longer. Maybe mercury and aluminum in vaccines is of the same order.

And why is there an increase in senile dementias? Do we know?

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It is a matter of weighing things up, which is preferable diphtheria, Ebola, smallpox, flu ... or a vaccine? When we had lead in fuel we knew it was not a good idea, but we wanted the internal combustion engine. Lead is still used and is a good product. I have lead on my roof. In the future we may have just one vaccine for flu as a once off. Would that have happened if we had not gone through the yearly one first? The same with steroids we know they have problems and one day something better may come along.

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Exactly. But I was very pleased last year when my doctor gave me the single dose vial version without preservatives. I don't know if that will happen this year if I choose to get one, but as two vaccines appear to be available for adults (not counting a high strength one reserved for people in nursing homes, etc) and they are giving us the quadrivalent versions :) , I'm seriously considering it, provided I can get the one which looks like it has fewest extras in it.

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In U.K. it seems that nothing is available! The surgeries and pharmacies have run out in a lot of cases and they are limited to the amount they can order. My surgery says it is OK as flu does not turn up until Chrustmas and after, I assume they are assuming there may be more supplies by then.

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It does look like there is a short supply of one of the ones on offer here.

novascotia.ca/dhw/cdpc/flu.asp

When I first looked this up, a few weeks ago, they were only listing the trivalent vaccine, except to high risk institutionalized seniors, so this has been an improvement I believe. Makes it more worthwhile getting.

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Interesting it is not just U.K. with problems.

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And in spite of it all, places like ours are still better off than much of the world. Including a large portion of the US population, arguably still the most wealthy and powerful nation.

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That is true, the US spend more per capita on health than anywhere else in the world and yet it is not an equal system. At least in U.K. if you are ill you don’t have to fight for medicines etc. You can concentrate on being ill. We complain about the NHS but there are some very good parts to it, it is just management and bureaucracy that lets it down, plus an appalling computer system or systems which do not talk to each other.

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Maybe as a senior with not much of a life I'd prefer to die of flu or pneumonia than cancer or dementia? Although I concede that flu can lead to nasty long term issues if you survive it.

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I think I agree with you. My dentist’s wife died at a cocktail party with a gin and tonic in her hand!

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What a way to go! 🍸

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Way to go!!!

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Some of the increase in senile dementias is purely because people are living longer - same with other things like cancer. People used to die of other things before they got to an age where senile dementia or cancer develops in a high proportion of people.

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Well, that's partly my point. Do you really want to live long enough to lose your marbles or would you rather shuffle off this mortal coil at an earlier stage? Does preventing flu or pneumonia come with a terrible price to be paid a few years on?

And I've just looked up incidence of dementia and it appears it has been dropping, although as you point out more old people survive long enough to get Alzheimers disease in particular. But why is the incidence dropping? What environmental thing have we changed? I mean, I hope by throwing away my aluminum cooking pots a few decades ago and switching to stainless steel and cast iron I made my diet safer. Even if it made no difference it certainly did no harm to switch.

alzheimers.net/dementia-pre...

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Just so you know, a vaccine containing 0.01% thimerosal as a preservative contains 50 micrograms of thimerosal per 0.5 mL dose or approximately 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 mL dose.

For comparison, this is roughly the same amount of elemental mercury contained in a 3 ounce can of tuna fish.

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I don't eat tuna! Or, sadly, swordfish, which I really like.

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I think you've missed the point, but I also see you've made up your mind.

Again, it's your decision to remain unvaccinated, but since you have made that decision, you should really consider the welfare of others and limit your contact with the elderly and with infants during the season. For their sake.

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I don't appreciate that lecture. I'm a senior myself. I had a cold last week and was intelligent and considerate enough to excuse myself from a number of events which I would have enjoyed had I felt well, because I didn't want to expose others, particularly one day when I was well enough myself but one of my friends had been ill much of last winter and I didn't want to risk possibly still being contagious and harming her. As for children - I'll avoid them to protect myself, and there are only two little ones in the extended family anyway, otherwise strangers and their kids just pass by me on the street, etc.

AND I believe I made it clear that if I was offered a single dose vial without the preservative I would take it without question. I did last year.

The year of h1n1 when young people were dying was the first time I had a flu shot specifically because we were told to get immunized to improve the herd immunity even though older people like myself were not at particular risk that year.

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I'm sorry you feel lectured, but sometimes facts are unpleasant.

Regardless of the infectious agent, immunization has two goals. One is to protect one's self. The other is to achieve herd immunity, which requires that 90% of the population is immune. That is the point at which those who are not immune, but who cannot be vaccinated, have the best shot at being protected. Every person who opts out of being in the 90% endangers everyone in the 10%.

A person who has contracted the flu is exposing others for 36 hours before they exhibit symptoms. Often, people who have symptoms don't realize they have the flu for 1-2 days, thinking they just have a cold. So for 1-4 days, they are exposing others everywhere they go, and likely leaving virus behind them on hard surfaces for others to pick up. Flu lives for 48 hours on hard surfaces like desk tops, restaurant tables, doorknobs, bathroom sinks, supermarket carts, and all sorts of other places. Even on the cans on the supermarket shelves that other people buy and bring home.

I am passionate about this subject because my dad, who was a healthy 67, never believed in getting a flu shot. He contracted the flu in 1994, developed cardio-pulmonary complications that damaged his heart, and died 2 years later from heart failure. Years ago when I was a child, long before the chicken pox vaccine and the shingles vaccine, my next door neighbor's grandmother had shingles and transmitted chicken pox to all 6 kids in their house. We all got it, too. My pregnant Mom contracted the pox and lost her baby.

When we don't take advantage of vaccines, we put the health and lives of a lot of other people at risk. Every person who opts out is a potential host for the virus, and is a possible vector for transmission to others.

One needs to take these facts into account when making decisions about vaccinations.

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And you need to know how your words can hurt someone who IS a responsible citizen. Did you not read how I had a vaccine I DIDN'T NEED because I wanted to contribute to herd immunity? And how do you know I've decided against the shot - although were I of a different type of personality I might well be digging in my heels about now. How many times do I have say I want the shot without the additives? What's wrong with that?

And how will having a shingles shot protect anyone else, and it may harm me? One only gets shingles if you've already had chicken pox. I may be the one at risk here, not 99% (your figure) of my neighbours. I'm the one who needs to be protected by chicken pox/shingles herd immunity.

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I am sorry about the transmission of chicken pox which harmed your family - but how come everyone tells me how hard it is to catch chicken pox from someone with shingles? You have to have direct contact with a weeping sore, or so I'm told, when being reassured that I'm not likely to catch chicken pox from someone who has shingles.

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New Yorkers are notoriously direct in their manner, and if I have given you offense, I apologize. Sincerely, I had no intention to hurt you. Please don't let our cultural differences get in the way of receiving the message I intended to transmit.

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Thank you for the "Like", which I take it means I am at least partially forgiven for having offended you, which I never meant to do. You offer so much wit and wisdom to the group, and I want to continue being friends.

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💖 :)

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While that is true that tuna has more mercury then vaccines, nobody injects tuna into blood stream, so comparison is misleading. Digestive system is prepared to handle unwanted material, even as poisonous as mercury, but when it is injected into blood stream, it bypasses all the defense mechanism that body has.

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When thimerosal enters the body, it breaks down to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate, which are readily eliminated.

Methylmercury is the type of mercury found in certain kinds of fish. At high exposure levels methylmercury can be toxic to people. In the United States, federal guidelines keep as much methylmercury as possible out of the environment and food, but over a lifetime, everyone is exposed to some methylmercury.

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WOW! Mercury in ANY form is not good for you. NO amount of mercury is safe for humans. It is one of the most poisonous substances on the planet. Here are few things that are linked to Thimerosal..

"Thimerosal is about 50 percent ethyl mercury by weight. Thimerosal exposure has been linked to attention disorders, speech delays, language delays, Tourette Syndrome, misery disorder, seizures, epilepsy, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, narcolepsy, heart disorders, neurological disorders, asthma and allergies. Over 165 peer-reviewed scientific studies show a link between Thimerosal and neurological injuries. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of misinformation about Thimerosal out there. It’s time to debunk the myths.

Myth: But the ethyl mercury in Thimerosal is less toxic than the methyl mercury in fish. After all, humans can drink ethyl alcohol even though methyl alcohol is poisonous.

Fact: The science shows that ethyl mercury is actually more toxic than methyl mercury. While this is a common argument, it is simply untrue. In order to exonerate thimerosal, its defenders sometimes parrot the debunked industry canard that “the ethyl mercury in thimerosal is less persistent in the body and therefore less toxic than methyl mercury in fish.” However, they cannot cite a single published scientific study to support this position. That’s because the science says the opposite. Ethyl mercury is 50 times more toxic than methyl mercury (Guzzi et al, 2012) and twice as persistent in the brain (Burbacher et al, 2005).

Myth: The dose makes the poison. There’s only a “trace amount” of mercury in the flu vaccine, which is too small to cause harm.

Fact: The term “trace amounts” means less than 1 microgram (mcg). Thimerosal-containing flu shots contain what in biochemical terms is actually a massive dose of mercury: 25 mcg. Why do I call that massive? Because the Environmental Protection Agency’s maximum exposure limits for methyl mercury is .1 microgram per 1 kilogram of bodyweight, which means a baby would have to weigh 550 pounds to safely absorb 25 micrograms of mercury. At these levels, a growing fetus in a mother receiving the flu shot could get up to a million times the EPA’s safe levels.

and finally..

Myth: My doctor can’t get me a Thimerosal-free flu vaccine.

Fact: Flu vaccines without mercury are widely available.

Even though doctors continue to use multi-dose flu vaccines that contain Thimerosal, Thimerosal-free flu vaccines are available. People receiving flu vaccines should be able to request and receive Thimerosal-free vaccines. Unfortunately, some doctors insist that it is too inconvenient or too expensive to order Thimerosal-free vaccines. If your doctor refuses to give you a Thimerosal-free vaccine, find a different doctor.

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Amalgam fillings for teeth contain mercury. They reckon about 50% is mercury.

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but they dont do it any more... at least where my dentist doesn't. When I ask him if I should remove the old fillings, hi said that the process of removing, drilling etc will release more mercury then if I just left it there...

Another one... heroine used to be prescribed to kids as caught medicine, made by household name Bayer pharmaceutical company. History was littered with examples like that... I am sure sometime in a future people would say, " they used to put mercury in kids medicine?!" what were they thinking?

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fda.gov/biologicsbloodvacci...

No one is advocating that anyone seek out a vaccine that contains Thimerosal.

I am advocating that people be vaccinated.

Far more people will be disabled or killed by preventable diseases than will be harmed by the mercury in the vaccines that contain it.

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so you say

"No one is advocating that anyone seek out a vaccine that contains Thimerosal. "

while posting a link

fda.gov/biologicsbloodvacci... whick leads you to the

"Notable Studies and Assessments Supporting the Safe Use of Thimerosal in Vaccines"

good work... you just contradicted yourself in 2 lines..

Do you have any proof that "Far more people will be disabled or killed by preventable diseases than will be harmed by the mercury in the vaccines that contain it."? or is that just your opinion?

Have you considered why Drug companies are not liable for any damage by vaccines? Would that be because vaccines are safe?

Have you looked how many children were hurt with vaccines? United States government has awarded hundreds of millions of dollars to dozens of other vaccine-injured children with autism diagnoses, as detailed in this article published in the Pace Environmental Law Review.

____

You are advocating that people be vaccinated. I am helping then to make informed decision before they do so.

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You argue your side. I'll argue mine.

You're afraid vaccinations. I'm afraid of disease.

IT IS A FACT, not my opinion, that more people are disabled or die from disease than die from vaccinations. Here's a list of diseases preventable by vaccination:

Anthrax

Chickenpox (Varicella)

Diphtheria

Flu (Influenza)

Hepatitis A

Hepatitis B

Hib (Haemophilus influenzae type b)

HPV (Human Papillomavirus)

Japanese Encephalitis (JE)

Measles

Meningococcal

Mumps

Pneumococcal

Polio (Poliomyelitis)

Rabies

Rotavirus

Rubella (German Measles)

Shingles (Herpes Zoster)

Smallpox

Tetanus (Lockjaw)

Tuberculosis

Typhoid Fever

Whooping Cough (Pertussis )

Yellow Fever

Each one individually, if no mercury-free vaccine is available, will cost you the equivalent of a mercury load found in a 3 ounce can of tuna. Not exactly life threatening.

That mad scientist, Andrew Wakefield, has you all terrified of getting a shot that could save your life, your kids lives, and/or the lives of people around you.

THERE IS NO CAUSAL LINK BETWEEN AUTISM AND VACCINATION. 25 YEARS OF INTERNATIONAL RESEARCH CONFIRMS IT DOES NOT EXIST.

But hey, you can give into your fears. Just stop spreading them to other people.

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Let's just stick with flu... that was the subject of the thread. Last year vaccine was only 10% effective... which means that 9 out of 10 people who had vaccine got flu anyway. In our age group . Odds were a bit better for younger folks. So for people to decide it is important to point out odds and risk. If you got vaccine from multidose, you were exposed to mercury. In addition, for people over 65 vaccine has adjuveants (aluminum oxide) which is pretty hard for body to get rid of... Those are the facts, and has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with percived risk vsa benefit.

P.S. Link between autism and MMR vaccines is not disproved. For the record,

"Myth: The government has never admitted that Thimerosal-containing vaccines cause autism.

Fact: In 2008 top public health officials at HHS conceded that vaccines caused autism.

In 2008 the family of eight-year-old Hannah Polling was compensated for autism due to vaccine injury. Since Hannah’s father was himself a doctor and her mother a nurse and a lawyer, this case garnered an unusual amount of attention. The government’s expert, Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, said that the vaccines had caused a metabolic overload that triggered Hannah’s autism. The court ordered Hannah’s medical records and details about the case to be sealed.

Furthermore, Japanese government has done their own study and found too many complications from MMR vaccine, so they are not offering it any more to population. Instead they have created individual, separate vaccines for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Diseases with no mercury in them.

If you want to know more about vaccines, you should read up about Amish population, and compare stats on how much autism instances they have compared with general population.

---

Another one for you... there was a study of home school kids in US, two groups one that did not have any vaccination and the other had full set of vaccines. The finding was that vaccinated group was 4x ( four times!) more likely to get sick...

It is not clear cut that vaccines are good for you.

I have no problem with polio or DPT and few, repeat FEW others, but don't subscribe to some like chickenpox or HPV. Too many are given in too short time ...

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It's obvious you;re an anti-vaxxer.

There's just no point in my arguing logic to someone who is irrational.

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Those pesky facts... sooo irrational :)... Finally we agree on something

"There's just no point in arguing logic to someone who is irrational."

The feeling is mutual

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The thing is, what you have are factoids.

What do you want to argue next? Climate change?

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well if it is factoids you would have no problem disproving them, but you didn't. So instead calling them factoids they are inconvenient(for you) facts that dispute your Myth on how safe mercury preservatives are. Flu vaccines for over 65 have adjuvants (aluminum oxide based) which amplify response of the body to viruses and are not safe either...So while you have 10-30% protection from virus, you are 100% exposed to injected poisonous component of the vaccine content. And don't get me started on foreign (non-human) proteins that come with vaccines due to development/production process.

As I pointed out some vaccines are worth the risk. Some are not.

P.S. Is there anything to discuss about climate change when 97% of scientists agree on the subject?

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It's just not worth my time. You can leave me alone any time, now. Hoping you stay well.

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you implied that the facts I presented were factoids without any proof. If you can't prove me wrong then apology would be appropriate.

I am not doing this for you, but for others so they can make informed decision based on correct and complete information.

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That wasn't an implication,. That was a statement.

I don't apologize for telling the truth.

And I tell the truth whether people like the truth or not. It is my responsibility to do so as a human being, especially in matters such as this.

Vaccinations are a wonder that have saved of millions of lives across generations.

Bering afraid of a shot is not an excuse allowing people to fail to vaccinate to protect themselves and those around them. Of course, there are risks to do anything, including getting out of bed and drinking a glass of water. Look at the risks and look at the benefits rationally. Or not, if you prefer to be afraid.

Now, I am telling you once again to leave me alone. I'll not argue this any further. And I'll thank you not to attack me any further. If you persist, I will complain to the site manager.

Do we understand each other now?

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Whatever... Enjoy your Thiomersal ... Pretend it is Tiramisu

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There was at least one case, and it may have been in Italy I don't think it was UK, where a child received a vaccine which in error contained too much thimerosal and was indeed injured. I would like to know more about the cumulative effects of mercury and aluminum being injected into people annually, especially as the flu shot is now recommended for everyone, not just the elderly who will not be around as long to accumulate these metals.

As we are all exposed to toxins in the modern world it would be sensible of the vaccine producers to limit the addition of questionable ingredients to the vaccine. Yes it will cost more. Yes the shelf life will be more restricted and more refrigeration will be required. But everything isn't about the bottom line is it?

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One concern is that the US we is a transcontinental nation, big enough to cross 4 time zones and several climate zones. Given most vaccines aren't even manufactured in the US anymore, I'd be concerned about how long the shipments sat on a deck or dock, in a warehouse, or in a truck before being received by the ultimate destination, and how well refrigeration was maintained throughout the journey.

I'd rather not be injected with live bacteria due to skipping the preservative.

We have to think rationally about the risks we take. Lifetime accumulation of mercury vs being killed this season by a virus. It's an easy call for me. I'll take the shot.

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Many vaccines must be used in 3rd world countries where there is no adequate refrigeration. Even in the UK there will be serious problems if there is a no-deal Brexit as there are no refrigeration facilities at the docks for medications of all sorts that require constant temperature storage. And 50% of medications come via the EU...

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When it comes to thimerosal there hasn't been any proper scientific study of it's impact on children. THe study would have to be large enough and done properly ( dividing subjects in 3 separate groups; one would get vaccines, second would get placebo and third would not get any jabs. Since vaccines are for most part mandatory proper study has not been done, that I know of. So one has to look at the issue from different prospective. Even link between thimerosal and autism has not been studied for the same reason as explained above. All assertions that there is no link between thimerosal and autism are derived from statistics.

Tanking about statistics, autism used to be rear , like 1 in 80000 before 1980. Today it is 1 in 30-40. But if you look at population that are not vaccinated for various reasons their rate of autism did not change, like Amish in USA.

Generally speaking you will not find many independent studies of how vaccines are effective. Nobody wants to finance them, because drug companies would not benefit and CDC is usually staffed with people that came from drug companies and will go back to the same industry that they are suppose to regulate.

Let's look at stats about flu. Here are the numbers from annual reports for 2012-2014

cause of death 2012 2013 2014

Influenza 1106 3697 4605

Pneumonia 49530 53282 50622

Total 50636 56979 55227

those "factoids" are from annual National Vital Statistics Reports for 2012-2014

lets do simple math...

total influenza (1106 + 3697 + 4605) = 9408

Total death (50636 + 56979+ 55227) = 162842

and % influenza of the total is 9408/162842 = 0.057773793 or 5.77%

It is pretty clear that the pneumonia deaths are dramatically higher then influenza.

In 2015 reporting has changed and influenza is NOT reported as separate item. Now they report deaths from influenza and influenza-like illness. So when you read last years particularly bad stats of 80000 deaths that also includes pneumonia. There is no reason to suspect that ratio between influenza and pneumonia changed much, which leads to concussion that influenza caused death last year is

80000 * 057773793 = 4621 or close to that number...

To assess the risk for average person in US to die from influenza is pretty easy..

4621 / 325700000 = 0.0000141879 or 14 in a million - so very,very small.

Just to put things in prospective, there were 32999 car fatality and 33636 gun related deaths. So you are 7x more likely to get shot or hit by the car then to get influenza.

That is the real risk. If you work in a hospital or any place that you deal with lots of sick people, then your risk assessment is different.

It was implied that I argue against flu vaccine out of fear from vaccine. Ironically it is fear that makes people get the vaccine.

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I don't know why everyone is piling on me about this flu shot thing. I thought I was quite reasonable. I believe in childhood vaccinations. I think second to clean water it's the best public health service. I understand that the autism/vaccine connection has been completely discredited. But I still question that injecting people on a relatively frequent basis with the toxic additives is a good idea. Perspective - you get polio/tetanus (or not polio any more, I guess) every ten years. That's way less than annual flu shot. Plus there are more and more vaccines being developed for different diseases, many of which may need to be given only once or twice, but it all adds up. If we get an annual flu shot does the body have time to detox? I don't know the answers to these questions. I think they are worth asking. As I didn't get a flu shot (bar once) for the first 70 years of my life, that's 70 fewer doses of mercury or aluminum or whatever the additive of choice is, than potentially a baby today may get in their lifetime.

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I did not mean to "pile on you" as yo put it, I thought you might be interested. I think our view of vaccines are very similar. I agree on childhood vaccines ( except few, like chickenpox which is pretty harmless) but I don't agree with frequency and also consider MMR as dangerous combination. MMR should be broken into 3 separate vaccines ( as it is in Japan) and schedule should be spread out to longer period . As far as flue shot, it is pretty obvious where I stand.

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Sorry. This is the problem with social media. I understood your points, but I was also feeling, why are so many people writing to me about this, and some of them really quite accusatory - not you - and was really on the defensive about an issue I haven't, in fact, got that strong an opinion on. It's not one of those issues which is of great concern to me, and I had only intended, originally, to state my point and then move on. Some things do concern me much more. For example, why is Canada still selling arms (calling vehicles used in battle jeeps) to Saudi Arabia? Why has the federal government bought a pipeline to move bitumen to tankers along the beautiful coast of British Columbia? Closer to home, why is the part of the city I live in being left out of a plan which will control development while "they" consider the matter longer, meanwhile there are no height restrictions in my area - a community founded in 1750, so you can imagine the impact uncontrolled building has here.... These things matter to me far more!

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they all have one thing in common - profits regardless of consequences to people or environment

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Apparently that's right that the single-dose vials don't contain preservatives like Thimerosal/Thiomersal (Mercury) and I found this govt. table which states clearly at the bottom that none of this year's UK flu vaccines contain it. assets.publishing.service.g...

I don't know about formaldehyde though...

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Interesting. Of course I'm not in the UK. But there's been so much push back from people who aren't averse to being immunized but are nervous of the cumulative effect of all the additives I think an effort is being made to provide those of us who live in places where refrigeration is reliable to have a less adulterated form.

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A small amount of formaldehyde occurs naturally in the body so I assume a small amount more should not make much difference.

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I have GCA and was advised by my rheumy (who i feel has been very relaible) not to have the latest shingles vaccine as its a live dose.

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From what I understand, your rheumy has it the wrong way round. The previous vaccine Zostavax was live, which I had last year, developed mild form of shingles, and developed PMR three weeks later.

The latest one Shringrix is dead.

I have had flu jab this year with no reaction at all.

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Hi Shella,

I had my first ever flu jab last year, no adverse effects at all. Having another next Sat, hoping to get hubby to have one as well as he is 76 and never had one. My sister is 82 and has had them for the last 20yrs with no problems.

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Got the flu shot and shingles shot. Rheumatlogist recommended both because PMR compromises the immune system. Sore arm both times...nothing compared to getting sick!

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Is it PMR or pred which compromises the immune system?

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PMR is autoimmune

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It is the pred. It reduces your immune system as that is what attacked your body in the first place and caused the inflammation.

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That's what I've always thought. I was politely questioning Sandy's statement. :)

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Is it the pred? I'm not convinced; as I understand it, with PMR, the autoimmune system has gone into some kind of overdrive. Can't switch off and in common with other autoimmune conditions, there's inappropriate inflammatory response.

So in the first instance, pre any pred, the immune system is compromised. It has nothing to do with the pred. That's just messing with the adrenals and natural cortisol production and for reasons that aren't understood, reduces inflammation and pain in PMR where standard anti inflammatories and painkillers don't.

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PMR is caused by the immune system attacking itself, it gets over confident. Steroids are used to suppress the immune system to calm it all down. This is true of people with cancer who take pred for example, they have their immune systems suppressed so have to be careful in not catching things like flu etc etc.

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I think the bit I struggle with is how steroids suppress the autoimmune system by replacing natural cortisol with something artificial. Shut off the adrenals, supply a chemical alternative, which obviously helps some symptoms, but creates other potential difficulties. Then do the whole thing in reverse, tricking adrenals back into action by clever tapering.

We need to challenge what's being offered, why and how or whether it's effective. Last year's flu vaccine promotion was a shambles. I'm increasingly cynical and disillusioned by a medics and pharma who, to me, don't always know best. I certainly don't know best, but I know how badly my body is reacting to an increasing regime of meds because that's what the experts think is best. And today's not one of my better days, so nothing personal🏄🏾

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I am not sure anyone really knows how pred works and why it has the effect it does. I suppose we just need to be happy it helps us. I know I would be in agony without it.

It does seem that the thinking is going towards Too Many Pills and we should try and replace it with exercise and diet. I suppose the doctors have got to change their thinking a bit.

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I'm no medic, but I as I understand it, the pred doses we start with balance out the overabundance of inflammation and clean out the old accumulation. As the PMR/GCA inflammation production reduces over time, we can reduce the dose. We have less pain because we have less inflammation.

Our struggle is to keep finding the balance, until we get down to the level of pred that mimics the level we would normally produce naturally. Our bodies stopped producing pred, because our adrenal gland recognizes we have plenty running through us. It's a bit difficult to get them started producing again, which is why it's so hard as we get to the lower doses. Of course, the GCA/PMR condition has to have gone through enough of its run for the pred/cortisol level to keep the inflammation under control until it's finally over.

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I think that is absolutely correct. I suppose what I was trying to say was no one actually knows how the steroids actually suppress the inflammation. I know they mimic the effects of hormones your body produces naturally in your adrenal glands, but why do they work! I suppose I was looking at it from how do they reduce the chemicals that cause the inflammation.

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I understood about 60% of this by Google-ing a lot of the terminology.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

May you fare better, and come back to the rest of us with an essay in English.

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That is interesting. It seems it describes what happens but even the authors are not 100% sure why it works. I think that the Nobel prize was deserved for the discovery of steroids.

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Shella,

I got a Flu shot and had no problems, not even a sore arm. My Rheumy advised it.

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That’s good ..... wow so much discussion..... which is healthy .... I guess it’s because I have never had a flu jab and have been lucky .... it’s the attitude of the surgery who most probably have best intentions etc but unfortunately in my experience doctors do get it wrong at times so prefer discussion to strong arm tactics!

Be well

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I was told some years ago that the shingles shot was a live vaccine and with a compromised immune system was likely to do more harm than good. Do I understand that a new vaccine has been bought out? I had a flu jab last year (the first since the 6o's);

my nose started running the next day and still has not stopped. I need a hanky or tissue in my hand permanently.

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Some years ago the shingles vaccine was a live vaccine. In March this year Glaxo Smith Kline announced that they had a new dead vaccine which is now available in Europe. It was available in the US and Canada last year.

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No, they get paid for giving these jabs

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Had flue jab ,7 days later have got what reall feels like flue feel awful, had shingles vaxination 2 yrs ago, and promptly got shingles afterwards, is it just me, that's unlucky??

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Shingles is apparently a known possibility from the original shingles vaccine, Zostavax, which is a live vaccine. I don't know if the new vaccine (killed virus) has been around long enough to trigger the possibility, as really you can only get shingles from the chicken pox virus which resides in your body already.

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Hi Heron:

I don't think you get shingles from the chicken pox vaccine. I think you get shingles from the chicken pox virus which you acquired somewhere along the way, and it has remained dormant since that time. Some people can actually get chicken pox and never even know they had it. (I wasn't one of them.) It can be that mild, especially if you were vaccinated.

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Sorry, is that what it sounded like. Didn't mean it to - I will delete word vaccine as it was unintended. Thanks. I know you only get shingles if you've had chicken pox. However I think the jury IS out on whether you are vulnerable to shingles if you have a chicken pox vaccine. I looked it up on purpose because I don't think I've ever had chicken pox, but there was no real answer. So I'll let sleeping dogs lie and hope I make it through the last few years of my life without this particular problem....

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Don't we all, which is an excellent reason to get vaccinated.

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Not if you've never had chicken pox! I don't want shingles either and unless anyone can prove to me that CP vaccine won't cause vulnerability to that by introducing the virus to my body I will not have one. If I haven't caught CP or at least never aware of having caught it, despite close exposure when my children had it, at two separate times years apart (they weren't particularly efficient at sharing it with each other either) I think I will let those sleeping dogs lie....

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Hey, that iS, of course, your decision to make. Just know that it is estimated that some 99% of people in the Western World currently aged 40 and over have either had the virus, or have been immunized against it.

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Exactly, and if my doctor would send me to be tested to find out if I have immunity to chicken pox, that would be fine, I might make a different decision. Or not, considering how wretched hubby was with the shot.

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If my doctor would send me for a test to check if I have immunity to CP that would be helpful and I might make a different decision. Or not, considering how wretched hubby was with his shingles shot - and you have to have two and the second was worse than the first.

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Perhaps you're naturally immune! I'm struggling with to have or not to have the flu jab too, I read a BMJ article which said basically that high dose slow release Vitamin C is as effective..............I aready take that and in spite of my OH coughing and spluttering all over me recently he failed to give me whatever lurgie he was trying to spread! No doubt I'm going to get an evangelistic response to this reply to you Heron!

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I think I may pop into the doctor's office sometime soon and ask if I'd be able to get the single dose version of the flu shot. As we are being given the quadrivalent version her it's more worthwhile than it might have been; the first time I checked the website this year's vaccine was going to be the trivalent one.

As for natural immunity, my younger son who had the same exposures as I did during his siblings' separate bouts of CP, also never showed any sign of being sick and certainly no pocks. He was still young enough to be sharing a bath with his older brother, who had a very mild case....

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I used to have the flu jab and did not have any problems,then l was very ill after one,l developed pneumonia and was so sick l had kidney failure.l did have one the following year and became ill again with a chest infection and had to have antibiotics quickly.The same thing happened the following year so l decided not to have one anymore.l am afraid of catching the flu but luckily for the last two years l have had a few colds but have not needed antibiotics.l was pressured by my surgery to have a shingles jab but refused it,l,did have shingles once a few years before l was offered the jab.l guess l,am just unlucky like VAI4266.

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Have you been offered pneumonia vaccination? Although maybe you are sensitive to one of the additives in vaccinations so perhaps that wouldn't be a great idea....

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Hi Shella:

Please follow the link:

npr.org/sections/health-sho...

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Hi Heron,l,did put my name down for one the year after l had pneumonia,they were giving them with the flu jab which l had decided to have.l,was told that my name was not on the list and they only gave me the flu jab.My doctor has never mentioned it since.l had a flu jab the following year but because l had a reaction from it again l have not had one since then.l am very apprehensive about the Pneumonia vaccination because of the previous reaction to the flu jab,so l just hope that l never get it again.

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It's possible to find out what additives are in the various vaccines. Also there may be versions without preservatives, etc. My husband used to reliably have pneumonia every May and sometimes more often until he was given the first pneumonia vaccination and after that he didn't get it again for years. Last winter he received a second vaccination which covers other strains as he had been quite ill with lung infections a couple of times. He's always been very vulnerable to this kind of sickness ever since I've known him.

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Thanks Heron for this information,l had the pneumonia after a flu jab,l was very ill and l also had kidney failure because of sickness and diarrhoea,my doctor did not give me antibiotics untill the kidney failure ,as he seemed unsure as to what was wrong with me at first.lt seemed like the jab had caused several things,although he never did say that was the cause.l will mention the pneumonia vaccine to my doctor again,but really l am rather afraid to have it .

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I will definitely be having the flu jab this week because I'm over 65 (68), on Pred for PMR and have Permanent A/Fib and each of these puts me in the 'vulnerable' category.

I've had the jab every year for several years now and haven't had flu or any noticeable side effects.

I take extra-good care of myself in the weeks before and after the vaccination - plenty of sleep, gentle exercise, highly nutrient-dense anti-inflammatory diet and careful stress management. It may well be that putting these things in place are all I need to do for immunity, without the jab, but for me it's not worth the risk.

Previously, when I've had flu, I've been severely ill and it's taken weeks or even months to recover.

I always think twice though before I decide whether to have it and each year I read up on the pros and cons.

I don't spend time around children or other vulnerable, high-risk people but if I did I wouldn't even question it.

I'm very pleased to see that there's no mercury preservative (Thiomersal) in any of the UK flu vaccines this year: assets.publishing.service.g...

If anyone's having the shot in another part of the world ask for the mercury-free shot, which is the single-dose vial, and avoid the multi-dose vial.

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We have compromised immune systems, so keeping updated on flu shots and shingle vaccine is extremely important. I live in Calirnia and last year’s flu season was a bear. Healthy athletes, children , elderly...passed away from effects of the flu. So sorry to see people die. One man had legs amputated and part of arms. His quote, “I wish I had gotten the flu shot. So simple to help protect us against flu outbreaks.

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