I was hoping Panpharma may be available after waiting about 6 months for things to improve but evidently not.
This should be a wake up call to so-called nutritional scientists who keep banging on about plant based diets and improving health from low meat intake. They genuinely haven't a clue what they're talking about if they keep suggesting to take a supplement.
With the recent news report on ITV with Jimmy Norman and the changes in NICE guidelines, I have a feel that we're heading to some kind of climactic point where the medical industry simply can't keep ignoring the impact of diet and gut health.
I really hope things change for the better soon.
In the meantime I'm sticking with Pascoe and I guess most others are too.
Written by
Pickle500
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It’s possible that Pascoe B12 depot will become harder to get , as so many members have turned to that brand now that we can’t get Panpharma . Also , There are now so many possibilities on line to buy b12 ampoules in U.K. and to have injections ( at grossly inflated prices of course ) They do take care that treatment is not advertised for medical reasons , thereby getting round the rules . They are offered for all sorts of non-medical reasons . I am hoping that this is just a fad of the moment, and will soon die out . I am worried that so many B12 ampoules are available to people who can an afford the high prices , but have no real need of the ampoules . Absolutely crazy .
Tell them nothing. . . . . Any excuse will do to abandon ye. . . . . The idea that if yu tell them it will encourage them to treat you right/better might work for one here or there but the majority will kick you out the door
After over 40 years at the same surgery I’ve changed .to another But rather than face any confrontation , I keep my head down , and just carry on self - injecting . Cowardly i suppose .
They should not be testing B12 after you have received B12. . . . . . Its in the guidelines and you can ask what they are taking blood for and you can say NO
They were not following guidelines before the new ones and if ye read the GP comments you';ll see it is so easy to not follow the new guidelines . . . . . The NHS is simply not getting enough money and if the tories and probably current labour have their way the NHS is history. . . . . The end of free doctors and scripts. . . . .
Something to remember is that 55% of current B12 production goes to animal feed, not people. And this B12 would need to be supplied regularly throughout the animals (unnatural) life often for several years until slaughter, when it could instead be directly consumed by humans. A good quantity of this B12 will go to support the animals metabolism, movement etc and so is effectively "wasted".
Less animals being farmed for human consumption would potentially double the B12 supply available for humans. Vegans with working intrinsic factor can get safely by on as little as 10mcg of B12 twice a day. Older adults need a bit more but this is true regardless of diet, due to reduced stomach acid with age.
Checking online stores in the UK and Europe there doesn't seem to be any shortage of over-the-counter B12 supplements in stock that I can see.
Provided plant-based diets are adopted sensibly with good attention to possible nutrient shortfalls they can be an excellent choice for health. This is without even going into the environmental benefits and of course not supporting industries which use animals unnecessarily.
I find your concern about the potentially increased B12 demands due to the popularity of plant-based diets strangely misplaced on a forum where many people are injecting 1,500mcg as much as three or even four times a day, when the necessity of doing so is by no means clear.
I am all for people doing what they need to do to take care of their health as best they can but I think you are looking in the wrong direction by trying to put vegans or the growing popularity of plant-based diets on the hook for issues with the injectable B12 supply.
I suppose I sense that certain nutritional scientists take for granted the ability to 'just take a supplement' when they have little-to-no idea of the impact of B12 deficiency. It's a complex process and I think is understudied. For instance, some studies posit that low zinc levels can lead to high carbohydrate intake or addiction while also loosening the function of the gut, leading to leaky gut or other problems. In which case B12 supplements in the form of pills may not prevent an all out deficiency, since it's likely to be gut related.
Adequate B12 intake is one thing but with a generalised lowering of meat intake for 'health reasons' it may be that zinc levels are lower and this could be causing a B12 deficiency itself. So a tablet will be a drop in the ocean with such problems.
For instance, look at this advice from the NHS on adequate B vitamin intake for people who drink alcohol - the menu ideas are simply abysmal. Beans and cheese three times a week?
I think my rage is generalised at the total lack of real science behind the claims that plant-based diets are purely healthy. I think the term itself is vague and the majority of people don't know what they're doing to have a healthy and balanced plant-based diet. And problems can occur in time when it slips out of hand.
So yes, I agree there SHOULD be no problem with sourcing OTC supplements for b12 on a plant-based diet. But a low meat diet DOES increase the risk of deficiencies and subsequent deficiencies will then put pressure on injectable sources to treat those deficiencies.
So I think it's a balance and we need a medical system that understands and caters to metabolic and nutritional health problems since so many of us have them. Especially with terrible, wonky dietary advice!
Pickle, I think you are correct to express some concern for Zinc intakes with plant-based diets. However I am not convinced that Zinc intakes on even semi-reasonably well-planned vegan diets would lead to a B12 deficiency in and of themselves.
There was an interesting study last year from King's College London regarding Zinc's role in IBD and "leaky gut". The study was a combination of rodent and in-vitro studies though, so it might not translate to humans, but neverthless quite interesting.
I'm certain that "carbohydrate addiction" is not a thing. Don't be afraid of carbohydrates as the right kinds of carbohydrate-rich foods can be part of a very healthy diet. Demonizing macronutrients is something that is popular in the social media space but no-one in serious nutrition science sees macronutrients in such black and white terms.
There is no doubt that adequate Zinc intake is of great importance to good health. Diets high in phytates, such as wholefood-centric vegetarian or vegan diets may negatively affect Zinc absorption along with these diets being naturally lower in high-zinc foods.
For this reason the US-based Institute of Medicine suggests a 50% higher Zinc intake may be needed for vegetarians/vegans who eat a high phytate diet but since there is a lack of sensitive clinical measures of marginal zinc status, this hasn't been confirmed.
There are some indications that Calcium, Protein, Garlic and Onions can increase Zinc absorption and can be something to consider. Some good plant sources include hummus or tahini with sourdough wholegrain bread, adzuki beans, wheat germ, tofu, cashews, pine nuts, sesame seeds, pumpkin seeds and sunflower seeds, quinoa, chickpeas and oatmeal. According to The Dietitians Guide to Vegetarian diets, "It is not known to what extent marginal zinc status hinders optimal health."
In my view, it can be recognized that microdosed Zinc supplementation, on the order of 8-10mg of elemental zinc, seems to be a good idea for those consuming high phytate vegetarian or vegan diets. This is covered well by Dr. Brad Stanfield in this video:
This amount of zinc is typically found in a multivitamin but could also be dosed separately. When I talk with anyone about vegan diets, I always mention that it is important to cover this (and some other) possible micronutrient shortfalls. Although we don't have robust evidence of frank zinc deficiency in vegan diets, surveys of intake and measures of serum zinc in vegetarians show that it's an area where some improvements can probably be made.
I'm all for ensuring that those adopting new diets avoid running into deficiencies, I spend a lot of time doing education to help avoid exactly that scenario.
There are also fad diets such as the carnivore diet, which depending on how its adopted also run the risk of deficiency or other long-term damage to health.
I dont alwasy agrre with everything . . . . My basic research told me that a lot more was used to feed animals which giving b12 to a herbivore is a bit pointless. . . . .praisetheruminant.com has it as 90% of all production. . . . . .And you are correct. . Pointless in our eyes but it helps them to make money. . . . . And I would agree with less animal farming . . . . . . Ireland was once famous for its spuds. . . . . . When we moved I moved everything my own self. . . . . MAny many trips and I still visit on occasion. . . . . . It is a trip of circa 4 hours. . . . . . All I see is grass. . . . . . Since the ukriane war I see some grain but no spuds. . . . . Not a single field and I've driven through some of the most fertile land in Ireland . . . . . . . Its all for beef and dairy . .. . . Complete waste. . . . . When Iwas young and looked out my nedromm window every 4th or 5th field was in spuds nad similar in oats or barley . . . . . Today and the last 50 years nothings but grass . . . . . . . Ye can grow many times the amount of food if you dont cycle it all through animals. . . . . . I am not a vegy anything, I just think we now eat way too much meat and man I ate some load of it for a few years such were my cravings. . . . . .I dont believe there is any shortage of B12. . . . I would go down the road of it being manipulation to adjust prices. . . . As to the popularity causing shortage. . . . For all we use SI is neither here nor there in the big picture. . . . . First figures I came across were 2019 and that was 280,000,000usd worth of the stuff was produced and we can fairly sure China produced more than they state as they near always do. . . . . We are not abut to run short for our very over prices little ampoules. . . . . Beside animal feed which is really at the start no different we are paying many times more than farming is .. . . . As to amounts per person consumed .. . . . . I simpley dont know .. . . . You are mroe clued in than I am on those fronts but I have read many times that we use 3 to 4ug per day and injecting B12 will meet that. . . . . Some people may not retain it for many hours though .. . . . . Someone suggested SI at nght which I tried the last few nights and I find I am running out of energy before evening . . . . . . This would obvioulsy not have been noticeable with morning injections as I;d be in bed sleeping when the effects would start . . . .. I dont think I would add any further really above 1000ug. . . . . I current use about 650 but if the symptoms continue I will split the dose or therabouts and see what happens . . . . . I know I dont retain it well but I also know that using 1000 or1500ug at once is not worth it. . . . . Pointless. .. . . It makes no improvement at all. . . . . So why make the body wqsh out more than needs be. . . . . . . But anyhow . . . . . I;d say I'll use up another needle shortly trying this if I start to feel exhausted by 4pm. . . . Keep your good tech work up . . . . .
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