Hi all.
I recall reading somewhere that PA affects DNA synthesis. I've read the scientific explanation of what this involves but not much wiser.
Can anyone explain in everyday terms what DNA systhesis is but more importantly how this affects PA sufferers. How does it manifest itself?
Good question. I believe it's rooted in the methylation cycle - humans need Cobalamin and Folate to carry out good methylation. So, without one or the other--or both--the methylation process will struggle to happen and it's needed for DNA strands to regenerate, which they do constantly. It's the code in our genes to keep our cells regenerating.
I'm sure a sciency person has a good explanation for us!
Thanks. I guess my question now is. What happens when failure to regenerate happens?
I guess it's a long list of various health issues. I think if the methylation process starts back up again then it's possible to avoid DNA damage, since DNA is also damaged by aging, stress, etc.
I'm sure Gambit or someone will have a knowledgeable explanation for us.
Many thanks.I just like to know what's happening to me and why, especially as I went undiagnosed for years and had serious neuro issues. Not that GP acted on that!!!
I think that's probably quite hard to say. The methylation process via B12 is involved directly with neurotransmitters, but everyone's symptoms will be slightly different. That methylation process will also work alongside DNA production but again, who could say exactly what the results of that would be? As yet, medical science is not able to say that I think.
B12 deficiency is the most peculiar condition to have, in my experience. But it's also at the center of our health - the gut. Since the gut is pumping B12 around the organs via Enterohepatic Circulation, if the B12 can't get through it's like the engine of a car breaking down without oil and gas. Parts go haywire here and there and there's leak and malfunctions.
If scientists actually spent any time giving vitamins priority in their studies and research, we probably wouldn't have to suffer so much. I think that time will have to come soon, though, since so many more people are becoming B12 deficient and becoming aware of the importance of B12 in vegan and vegetarian diets.
What baffles me is medics refusal to understand that it's the same B12 that can inactivate feeling in the legs of young people that we suffer from. The same B12 that's inactivated in nitrous oxide use and from Pernicious Anemia. On top of this, medics have been trained to administer drugs, not vitamins, to patients. So they'll freely hand out plenty of prescription drugs, yet let us all suffer like we're a bunch of weirdos for being ill and needing a 'placebo'.
We need nutritional health to be placed at the center of medical studies, but then the clue is in the word - Medicine. So, they can give us Meds but they won't give us vitamins because surely a vitamin couldn't do all this to someone??
The world appears to be quite ignorant of the importance of B12 and how it works in the body. We need is to study it more closely and actually engage medics with the importance of it. This may not happen in our lifetimes but at some point it will. Even if it means 'reinventing' what it means to be a Doctor...which I think we have to do soon otherwise we'll all become ill !
Yes I agree .Theve studied and understood rickets .
Vit D deficiency damage recognised and treated.
Iron anaemia treated.
Folate
B12 is recognised but not understood .
Testing and treatment as we all know inconsistent .
Clinical skills being g lost.
If a good response it's not seen or noted .
Just numbers!
Remote doctoring .
Lack of observation
Examination .
Let's hope more research soon.
Trouble is drug companies usually fund it .
Thank goodness of the earlier scientists that did take an interest
What is the "inactivate feeling that young people suffer from" please??
Nitrous oxide abuse. Whippets.
I am finding that the lack of competence of physicians is not limited to B12 diagnosis and treatment.
Sadly you may well be correct. However there are some brilliant medics out there.
It's finding the right doctor .There are some very good ones .
It's the system mainly at present.
I've alot of praise and alot of disappointment.
With many people I've tried to help.
The system is failing .
Alot doctors are not and this needs to be acknowledged .
All the private ones have been trained by the NHS.
If we pay it's for time and speed of appointment.
I'm trying to retain some faith .
I always find if you speak face to face you get somewhere .
Big reservations about blocking this human skill of communication.
'Finding a good one' is much the same whether it's a doctor, a plumber or a car mechanic. A [late] friend of mine was a Consultant Haematologist. When he joined a Working Mens Club, he gave his occupation as 'Plumber' to avoid being inundated with medical enquiries! [Whether he ever did any plumbing jobs is another matter.]
The biochemistry answer, which I'll paste from a paper below, is complex but basically, a B12 deficiency can cause improper DNA synthesis, which reduces supply of an important form of folate, resulting in large mis-shapen red blood cells, called megaloblastic anemia.
"Megaloblastic anaemia is due to a derangement of DNA synthesis caused by insufficient supply of one or other of the four deoxyribonucleoside triphosphate (dNTP) precursors of DNA synthesis or by direct inhibition of one or other DNA polymerase. Reduced supply of the pyrimidine deoxythymidine triphosphate (dTTP) may be caused by folate or vitamin B12 deficiencies or by the action of dihydrofolate reductase inhibitors (e.g. methotrexate, pyrimethamine or trimethoprim), all of which cause reduced supply of the coenzyme 5, 10 methylene tetrahydrofolate (pentaglutamate) needed for thymidylate synthetase. "
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10122/
I would imagine there are probably other effects of impaired DNA synthesis and repair. As you probably know, the improper methylation of the myelin sheath (which normally protects nerves) can be one of the most important consequences of B12 deficiency. Nerve repair is extremely slow (1mm a day) and if nerve axons are destroyed, these do not regenerate.
I am not medically trained.
Thank you so much for that clear and informative reply. I suffered for nearly 10 years after diagnosis of megalobalistic anemia before getting a PA diagnosis. I dread to think what damage has been done but I fear that I'm now seeing for myself as my body deteriorates despite B12 injections.
The initial treatment decline following start of B12 deficiency treatment can cause an increase in symptoms (and new symptoms!) but this should not continue beyond about 5-7 months after which, even in worst cases, I think you should start to see gradual improvements as enough B12 becomes available to affect repairs.
Since you were untreated for some time, more intensive treatment, such as every other day injections may be necessary - not sure if you already inject EOD but its something to consider.
Aside from B12, if your condition declines further no matter how frequent the B12 then it makes sense to proactively work with your doctor to investigate other possibilities.
Optimising nutrition is the one of the biggest factors in a successful recovery along with working with a good gastro if gut issues stubbornly persist. Wishing you best of luck in your recovery.
Thank you for that reply. Unfortunately my GP will not deviate from 8weekly and I've had to fight to keep that. I manage to get 2 extra injections via nursing friend and pharmacist but more frequent is difficult. I've been putting off SI through pure fear of SI intra muscular. I just get the feeling everything is aging faster than normal in my body. I cannot get past the, 'it's your age' diagnosis at GPS. I'm 66 not 86! And seem to be deteriorating faster than similiar aged friends who I was once much fitter and healthier than.
The PA battle with medics is soul destroying but big thanks for your advice.
You can SI subcutaneously.
"It's your age" is a rubbish excuse for doctors to use (see picture below). I understand the trepidation with self-injection but consider that you may be under-treating the damage from your deficiency, which can have consequences considerably more serious than most any small accident that might happen while learning to carefully SI. It is possible to get great SI advice along with the protocols and techniques to follow - others here have being doing so safely and successfully for many years so you are not alone in that journey. If frequency of B12 does not help at least then you know to look at other factors and you will have excluded one good reason for any health decline.
To get an in-person guided instruction, if they are willing, you could ask for the supervision of your nurse or doctor as you do the self-injection, when having one of your regular injections.
Ha, ha loved the photo. Learned to ski at 59 does that count?Thanks for the words of encouragement on SI. It's the pain that worries me. B12 injections seem quite unpleasant /painfully at the moment. 😬
But I know it will have to come...
In my experience, a well-delivered intramuscular injection should not be painful at all. Muscles should be fully relaxed during the injection. Rarely there is some small pain or weird sensation, but it should not be routine, thats (IMO) a sign either the technique or injection site is wrong and/or there is muscle tenseness.
Yes I think you're right. I do tense but pain varies depending on who administers injection.. Hopefully I'll get there because I think SI is only way forward.
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