Can't help feeling this is very bad news for the NHS... - NRAS

NRAS

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Can't help feeling this is very bad news for the NHS...

flow4 profile image

So the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is going to impose the contract that 90% of doctors think is unsafe and unfair. The BMA has announced it will fight on: "Junior doctors cannot and will not accept a contract that is bad for the future of patient care, the profession and the NHS as a whole... Junior doctors already work around the clock, seven days a week and they do so under their existing contract. If the Government want more seven-day services then, quite simply, it needs more doctors, nurses and diagnostic staff, and the extra investment needed to deliver it". web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.ns...

I can't help feeling things look very bleak for the NHS. We know Hunt is not its friend; he co-wrote a book years ago calling for NHS to be replaced with private insurance. independent.co.uk/news/uk/p...

I don't know about you, but personally I think I'd be totally stuffed if there was no NHS and all my healthcare had to be paid for through insurance or out of my pocket...

79 Replies

A No Confidence vote...

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

There's a petition doing the rounds.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to cathie

One of them is here: petition.parliament.uk/peti...

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

Yes this is the one. When I signed it this morning there were 17.000 sigs now more than 45,000. Remember the more the merrier!

helixhelix profile image
helixhelix in reply to cathie

55,000 now....hopefully will make 100,000 today.

woodstar1 profile image
woodstar1 in reply to helixhelix

These another one that calls for a vote of no confidence in Hunt, its got 88000 so far!!!

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to woodstar1

Have you got a link for that one, woodstar?

woodstar1 profile image
woodstar1 in reply to flow4

Can't get the link up but just Google it, it has 117000 signatures so far!!! We all have to do what we can. Thanks.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to woodstar1

Found it!

petition.parliament.uk/peti...

More than 119,000 signatures now - 2,000 more in just 5 minutes! :D

woodstar1 profile image
woodstar1 in reply to flow4

Absolutely fantastic!!! Let's hope they listen, and let's spread the word!!!

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to flow4

130,000 signatures now. So 21,000 in an hour :)

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to flow4

The No Confidence in Jeremy Hunt petition now has 181,000 signatures and is growing by more than a signature each second this morning!

This is exactly what this government wants. I for one will do what I can to support our Drs and NHS. A vile odious plot to privatise yet another one of OUR services that needs stopping in its tracks, Nye Bevan would be turning in his grave. But let's remember this when we next vote because if this isn't halted its real people like us that will suffer!!! Let's not give up!!!!

What else is there to say, except "NOT SAFE, NOT FAIR!" I had a hosp appt yesterday and we signed their petition as they were outside the front door.

Immigrants have NOTHING to do with the problems in the NHS, kalel. Firstly, they don't put any additional strain on the system. Immigrants make up about 7.5 million/12% of the population, including 3.6% who are EU nationals and more than half-a-million Irish people. Compared with that, about 5 million/7% of Brits live permanently abroad, and another estimated 3 million live abroad at any one time (estimates are hard because most EU countries - like Spain - don't register UK residents as foreign). So roughly the same number of Brits live overseas as there are immigrants in the UK. Plus, most immigrants are working (despite what the tabloids would have you believe!) so they are net contributors to the economy, paying tax and running businesses that employ other people.

Added to that is the fact that the NHS literally could not run without foreign doctors and nurses! 26% of doctors and 11% of all NHS staff are non-British. Immigrants GIVE much more to the NHS than they take!

theguardian.com/society/201...

Matilda7 profile image
Matilda7 in reply to flow4

Well said!

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

Excellent flow4

I've lived in a few other countries and, although I tear my hair out at times, my vote goes to the NHS for good healthcare. In fact it's the main thing that's kept me in the country since I was diagnosed. It makes me weep to see what's happened to it over last 20 years, and I can't blame it all on Jeremy Hunt as there's been a long, slow erosion. We won't appreciate what we've got until it's gone, sadly.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to helixhelix

I agree there has been a long slow erosion of our excellent NHS, but it does feel like JH has started a headlong race to the edge of the cliff now... :(

helixhelix profile image
helixhelix in reply to flow4

To me it's been hanging off the edge of the cliff for a while, and he's now stomping on its worn out fingertips to make it drop off.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to helixhelix

:(

I just thank god that I live in Scotland where the NHS is appreciated and not privatised.

Any organistion that colludes in this proc ess, be it a privàte, usually American, company,or even worse, UK charities, should be brought to account. The doctoers are fighting for everyone in England

If only people realised how far down the road of privatisation the English health service is, support for the doctors would rise even higher than it is now.

Our future is on the line!

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to hatshepsut

I feel the same as I'm in Scotland too. However while we remain part of the U.K. Our budget will be linked overall to NHS England. A registrar from Newcastle told me recently in some detail how much better things are here. He wouldn't go back.

We are going through the same thing in Oz the government wants to destroy the universal health care and make it a user pays system. I am screwed!

We all have opinions on this but the facts are, our Drs have never gone in strike in 40 years, under this poxy government they have!! Either do our best to help OUR NHS, and vote for another party or don't moan when you vote for the same and be surprised when you get what you vote for. Hunt and his party are trying to tell us the most dedicated and intelligent individuals in this country are wrong and he's right, decision time folks but I know who I trust and will miss if they aren't there and its not this government!!!!

You obviously haven't followed the Drs mobilisations. Even patients joined the picket lines in some places

woodstar1 profile image
woodstar1 in reply to cathie

I did, it was my rest day from work, decided to show them some solidarity.

There are many nurses and doctors from overseas who have been the backbone of the NHS for years. Check your facts and don't blame 'immigrants'

Why would someone want to do that! Best to check facts before flinging out accusations about immigrants. The guardian has quite a good free online series about NHS. The situation in Scotland is better too could this be because of different policy from government?

Immigration is irrelevant and is being used to divide us.

Yes kamel, I know exactly how many immigrants are working: it's 79% of foreign men, compared with 77% of British men, and 62% of foreign women compared with 72% of British women. The lower levels of foreign women workers are accounted for mostly by Bangladeshi and Pakistani women coming here to marry British husbands. You can explore the full statistics here: migrationobservatory.ox.ac....

And yes, I know that a woman arriving in the UK today could have a baby delivered by the NHS tomorrow. A British woman could do the same in France, Spain, Germany or many other countries. This is because in the UK and many other counties, childbirth is considered an emergency situation, and emergency healthcare is free. I don't know about you, but I don't want our NHS to turn into something like the USA system, where people die because they don't have insurance or a credit card in their pockets.

Did you also know that a foreign woman who was admitted to hospital *after* childbirth would be billed? That's because hospital care is NOT free to most foreigners. Here is a quotation from the guidance: "If you are visiting England from a non-EEA country, you need to ensure you are covered for healthcare through personal medical insurance for the duration of your visit, even if you are a former UK resident. Should you need NHS treatment and you have not arranged insurance, you will be charged at 150% of the standard NHS rate, unless an exemption category applies to either you or the treatment". You can find the whole guidance here: nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSs...

There are a lot of myths and misinformation about 'migrants'. It really does help to check the facts, and not believe what you read in the tabloids.

It's not opinion, it's simply WRONG to blame immigrants for what is happening in the NHS.

But yes, you're right, doctors and nurses are under enormous stress, and many of them may leave the country. Then maybe we'll need even more foreigners to run the NHS than we already have.

When I go to hospital I want to be seen by a clear headed person that can do there job to the best of there knowledge not someone that is too tired to work I know people work unsociable hours but not everyone takes my life into there hands shame on this government

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to

Yes. I met a young man a few weeks ago who was on a day off after 7x 12 hour shifts, and who was about to do another 7x 12 hour shifts. I don't think he'd be entirely safe on day 2, let alone day 15!

I believe people think things are getting worse..Sadly, I cannot disagree.

My daughter is a junior doctor, she's so exhausted, demoralised and feels so under valued that she's looking either to move to another country to work or will change career - she won't stay in England and have the new contract imposed. She works so hard as it is, removing the safeguards of the current contract will break her and will put patient safety at risk. She lives at home with me and although I'm normally the one that needs help and support because of my RA, I have to look after her to keep her going - it's no way to live. I have no choice but to live with RA, she has a choice in what she does with her future and unfortunately it won't be to work in the NHS with the new contract.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to Harpey

That's such a shame, Harpey.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to Harpey

She should consider Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland where they arent imposing these contracts. I dont know where you live, but the idea of going to the other side of the world cant be appealing. Good luck to her!

kalel profile image
kalel in reply to Harpey

Harpey I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. Not that it will help you out at all but quite a few of my friends who are junior Drs have concerned moving to Dubai. Australia etc because of what is going on at the mo .. I do hope things change but don't know if they will. I don't know if this will help you but I got diagnosed with RA a while ago and have been seeing an intergrated health dr slowly but surely I have come off meds have had few hiccups along the way and am also seeing a alternative health specialist. Of course do what is right for you but I just wanted to mention it cause I'm sure your daughter may know a lot about functional health.

The thing is that there's no money. Banking sector lost loads of cash lately again and there's no money to lend etc etc. Do you know pound sterling had gone down again? People ARE leaving the UK. Wise people are already gone. People work harder and they get poorer. Lots of people start to wonder what's going on here?

The Question is where..for those who have a chronic illness? I would say, that would be a constructive discussion rather than discussing if it's immigrants who wrecked the NHS or not. NHS was wrecked before they arrived as far as I know (except some good hospitals which aren't many anyway). How many Jr drs or newly qualified nurses could afford buying somewhere decent to live without family supports? Very few. In areas such as South East, no first-time buyers could afford a 1 bedroom / studio flat without borrowing from parents.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to

That's where the conversation gets difficult though, coniston. To me, half of the solution is quite straightforward but will not be done under this current government: if they collected corporate tax effectively, cancelled Trident and stopped dropping bombs on other countries, we could afford the NHS easily. But as soon as you get into the reasons and details behind these issues, you step into territory where people have strong opinions but often not much real understanding... The other half of the solution is much more complex and to do with changes in the way many people are using the NHS, which is to rely on GPs for non-medical things and rely on A&E departments because they can't get to their GPs and don't understand what their pharmacists can do for them...

As for where someone with a chronic illness could go to get better healthcare than the UK's NHS, the answer is nowhere. No other country in the world has such high-quality, universal, free healthcare. And most of us know how difficult it can be to get what we need even here, which makes the prospect of losing what there is quite frightening...

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

You are absolutely right. That is why we cant allow this to happen!

Why should we be driven out of our country by greedy privatisers.

carotopgal profile image
carotopgal in reply to flow4

You are so right, Flow4! I live in the United States and our healthcare stinks! It's horribly expensive. And insurance premiums are out of control. And even if you can afford insurance (at least now I can with the ACA insurance!), you are stuck with high deductibles and lower coverage. And for all the reasons you listed above, our country could afford to give us universal coverage and more if they would only do it!

You all are so fortunate that you have universal health coverage. I am rooting for Bernie Sanders in our upcoming elections, because he knows the value of coverage for all!

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to carotopgal

We are very, very lucky carotopgal! Fingers crossed for Bernie Sanders, and here's hoping our lot don't manage to Americanise our healthcare system!

flow4, Thank you for sharing.

It's good to be able to share. That's so true about the corporate tax thing!

I try not to depend on the NHS hospitals, which are increasingly trying hardest to discourage patients from depending on them in my own experience. I noticed this since 3-4 years ago. Yes, sadly, we need to see a bigger picture which is giving rise to other issues, which concern us! Best Rgds, :-)

And I am saying that immigration is a red herring to distract us from the real agenda which is privatization.

I have no choice but to depend on NHS hospitals. However there are ways we can support the NHS. For instance if you look ahead sometimes its possible to get a blood test done in conjunction with another one thus saving duplication. I could get my dermatological moisturiser and paracetamol on prescription but as I can afford it I pay over the counter. There must be lots of similar economies we can make.

Anyone attending clinics on a regular basis will have seen those notices saying how much money has been wasted by patients failing to turn up for appointments.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to cathie

I agree with you cathie. Did you know that 70% of GP appointments result in no action at all? No prescription, no referral, no tests or treatment... Some of those people will be genuinely ill and needed to be seen, even if 'watch and wait' is the best course of action, but many of them are people who really shouldn't be visiting the doctor. And 40% of A&E visits also result in no action, not even a referral back to the GP. I don't know what the solution is, but as a society, we desperately need people to be managing their own health more often.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

Yes I think that if we can manage ourselves effectively we should. I try to keep a list of medications and take it to appointments so save time.

One thing I learned in 2014 during the referendum here in Scotland, is that there's a lot of things we can take into our hands. I dont think it helps to resent people who dont, but it is useful to do what you can

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to cathie

Yes. And also to try to understand *why* so many people don't/can't self-manage. If we can understand it, maybe we can do something about it.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

Yes. I think its an attitude learned. It took me a while to learn that drs arent infallible and I needed to give them as much useful info as I could to help. I think this forum has helped me to learn more about my disease. Im a bit of a denier, would prefer to 'be well' having grown up in a family where my mother's RA dominated our lives.

I could not agree more I am 69 and feel that you are denied treatments on age !!

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to linda-5502

I'm the same age and had new knee on my 69th birthday this year. The ward staff gave me a card which was nice. I dont think that I've been denied treatment on the grounds of age, but maybe I've been lucky.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to cathie

I was initially denied a hip replacement for being too *young*!

linda-5502 profile image
linda-5502 in reply to cathie

I am afraid treatment so far has made me feel hat way

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to linda-5502

Its always possible to ask your GP to get you a second opinion. I had one shockingly neglectful rheumy a few years ago. GP referred me to a different one who has been making a big difference.

linda-5502 profile image
linda-5502 in reply to cathie

Thanks I did not know that

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to linda-5502

I changed my rheumy by messaging people on this forum (private) who go to the same hospital. One person recommended this doctor and I asked my GP to refer me to him privately. Just for the one appointment (about £120) and I was clear to him that I was an NHS patient. He gave me a good 45 mins and took me onto his NHS list. I expected to pay but he didnt charge me. Which was surprising.

I dont like private medicine but this is one thing I would do to have a chance to change the dr.

Provided that you live in their catchment area you can ask to change the GP - I live in Scotland but this also applies in England where I used to live.

I'd always do as much homework as possible to get another opinion from someone who will be an improvement.

Good luck!

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to linda-5502

I'm very sorry to hear that linda. 69 is still pretty young, really. You certainly shouldn't be expected to just 'give up living' at that age.

Fortunate that I live in Scotland where health is devolved which means it is directly funded and managed the Scottish goverment who have no intention of privatising the NHS.

If I lived in England I would be VERY worried. The wholesale privatisation of the NHS is being fast tracked. Private healthcare is for profit - not for patient.

The complete shambles of the USA healthcare sytem is a testiment of how not to do it. People are denied treatment even though they have insurance - the insurance companies insentivise their claims departement to turn down claims to meet targets. Its a few years old now but worth watching - Sicko by Michael Moore - search for it on the net. It will open your eyes to the dirty dealings in USA.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to Yooneek

I agree Yooneek but I also know that while we're in the UK the budget for NHS Scotland depends on things like the Barnett formula which ties our funding to the rest of the UK. I've had several experiences here which show very clearly that the health professionals i deal with would do anything to avoid the private sector. One consultant even refused to bill me because I was (in some desperation) seeing him privately so as to go on his NHS list. I pointed out to him that he hadnt charged and he went harumph and changed the subject.

Yooneek profile image
Yooneek in reply to cathie

you are correct Cathie. We manage our country via a block grant based on the Barnett formula which is worked out as a % of English public spending. It has already been cut this year.

Every penny of reveue generated in Scotland is sent to WM which includes, VAT, customs and excise, airport duty, sales from exports including whisky, invome tax, ni and much more - to much to list here. On paper if we kept all our own revenue would would be a rich country.....even without oil!

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to Yooneek

YES

Yooneek profile image
Yooneek in reply to cathie

YES.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to Yooneek

:-)

carotopgal profile image
carotopgal in reply to Yooneek

I'm from the US and I couldn't agree more with your statements!!

Yooneek profile image
Yooneek in reply to carotopgal

lived and worked in US for a year and have friends who live there also. Even tho I had company insurance I had to pay a co-pay to see the doc and pay for prescriptions. I did not have RA when I lived there but do have asthma and recurring chest infections and cystitis. US healthcare is NOT the envy of the world...

The trouble is, kalel, if you persist in believing that immigration is the reason (or even one of the reasons) that the NHS may be privatised - despite all the evidence and facts lined up against that - then you can't see or deal with the *real* problems.

kalel profile image
kalel in reply to flow4

Flow if you read my posts then you would of understood that I am not saying immigration is the sole reason why things are so screwed up in this country. I am really done with this convo. Sorry but I am not going to waiste my energy talking to you anymore.. believe what you want and take what I am saying however you want to. I am done with this convo. Bye

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to kalel

I read all your post carefully kalel. You have deleted them now, so I guess there were some things you said that you weren't happy to have other people read or maybe even changed your mind about. Ah well.

kalel profile image
kalel in reply to flow4

Flow please think what ever you want but I just have no time for negative energy it is not something that I choose to have in my life. Think what you want about my posts but please stop messaging me it is enough already. Take care.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to kalel

I have not messaged you at all, kalel. What a strange thing to say!

kalel profile image
kalel in reply to flow4

flow you keep replying to the messages and even though you are entitled to do that. let it go now please. It is enough already. Good night.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to flow4

Or do you mean answering your posts here? If you post something on my thread that I don't agree with, I will say so. If you don't want to engage, don't post. :)

Governments can economise, reorganise and fiddle around with the NHS until the cows come home, but the undeniable fact is that the NHS needs a heck of a lot more money, wisely spent I may add, if that's at all possible with the inept cronies we've had running things for many years now. I'm no economist but the only reliable and fair way to raise such funds to my way of thinking is to add a penny or two to the basic rate of income tax. Can't see that happening with the two main parties though as they think it would be political suicide to suggest such a thing, and they probably have a point as the vast majority of working people are fit and healthy so have few concerns about the state of the NHS. It makes me wonder about the current rate of income tax which I believe stands somewhere around 20% mark. How times have changed...to think I was paying 30% income tax for the first 15 years of my working life. It all boils down to fact that we can't expect to have really good NHS unless we are willing to pay for it hand in hand with some high up people who can properly run it.

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to wishbone

I agree, wishbone.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

Yes I agree, more or less. I think its important to stop private companies being given preferable contracts for services over the public bodies. And those PFI deals were madness

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to cathie

Stark raving bonkers. A hospital near me is facing closure, largely because of an appalling PFI deal. The Trust borrowed something like £65 million to build another hospital, and now owes £170+ million.

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to flow4

I remember this being Brown's plan... I think the only way forward is going to support the doctors and join any resistance.

youtube.com/watch?v=By95MlA...

And this is for laughter to relieve RA pain for a few minutes

flow4 profile image
flow4 in reply to cathie

I love this! :D

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