Another thought on dietary factors...

[blinc]

One of the several really helpful comment in response to my post on sugar (I'll continue to try & keep refined sugar/ processed food very low, as it's not good for any of us & it's getting easier:)), prompted me to do a little google on soy sauce. Eating lots of delicious plant based meals, I consume lots of commercial (Amoy) soy sauce. This is interesting & makes me think. We were using Tamari for a while (my vegan daughter insisted, but I stopped buying it due to cost). One thing I know for sure, is that MSG gives me migraines from hell, so it seems there are related products in regular soy sauce; could be why I'm still v heady a lot of the time. As always, will keep you all posted...maybe it will be a case of going back to the tamari!

thehealthyhomeeconomist.com...

[Kathybishop]

Everyone must watch The Game Changer ! Fascinating! Can it help migraines??

[bamboo89]

I had a look at the link you provided - whilst very interesting, its American, and foodstuffs in America often contain substances or are produced using different methods than those permitted here in the UK, because we are still subject to EU food regulation laws (and hopefully will remain so). The EU has something called The Precautionary Principle, which means nothing can be used in or to produce food that has not been proven harmless for consumption, In America, its the opposite - they can use anything they like UNTIL linked problems appear in the population which then must be proven before changes are made.

If you're going to use chinese soy sauce instead of Japanese tamari, you're better off with Kikkoman, not Amoy. Amoy soya sauce contains several things not present in the Kikkoman one, such as two flavour enhancers (E631 and E627), caramel colouring. two preservatives and, worst of all, sugar, which is listed as the third ingredient, so its relatively high, though it does not have msg as an added ingredient. Kikkoman only has soy, wheat, water and salt, and Kikkoman is said to be the only true Chinese soya sauce because its fermented properly - its also more expensive than the Amoy version. Amoy soy sauce isn't really proper soya sauce, so it will be cheaper. The price differential between Kikkoman and tamari isn't so wide either, but at least you're comparing like with like with those two.

Japanese soy sauce or tamari has another major difference - it usually contains no wheat (whereas wheat may be up to 50% of chinese soy sauce), the sodium level is lower, and no sugar either - its just soybeans, water and salt. Because it does not contain wheat, its suitable for people who are gluten sensitive, although Kikkoman now makes a gluten free version of its sauce.

It might be the additives in the Amoy version that are making you feel heady... more info on soy sauce generally here kikkoman.com/en/shokuiku/so...

Basically, if you're trying to cut out sugar, you need to ditch the Amoy for Kikkoman or tamari, because at the moment, you're adding sugar to your food via the Amoy sauce.

[blinc in reply to bamboo89]

Thank you SO much for this! My head is just SO bad atm, I'm quite desperate (fortunately it clears with a couple of triptans & three aspirin), but I'm being woken with absolutely horrendous pounders at pretty much 3.15am for the last 8 or 9 days, & guess what I'm putting in most of my otherwise 'healthy' meals?! Amoy Soy sauce. This really hasn't been making sense... It's all going to the food bank, I've got tonnes of the stuff in stock. I'll go back to tamari, thank you so much, I'm sure you've hit the nail on the head. I'll update 😊

[blinc in reply to blinc]

Just re-read your post, (& mine, sorry, I get confused with what I've said (brain fog) - I see I had mentioned the Amoy, once again, thank you for your detailed reply, I'm really hopeful that I'm getting to the bottom of this.

[troy04 in reply to bamboo89]

I have to say - PP / The precautionary principle (Article 7 of the General Food Law) of EU - does NOT mandate : "nothing can be used in or to produce food that has not been proven harmless for consumption".

If there is suspicion - EU will ask for risk assessment and scientific advice from "expert", however the substance won't be banned necessarily unless proven harmful.

Example: Aspartame (E 951) is an artificial sweetener and EU asked EFSA for full re-evaluation of the safety of aspartame. EFSA published its first full risk assessment of aspartame in December 2013. The opinion concluded that aspartame and its breakdown products are safe for general population. BUT - Aspartame was not banned in EU before EFSA concluded their risk assessment. It would have been banned if EFSA found Aspartame was indeed harmful - therefore the EU principle of food safety is not greater than many developed countries around the world. It is true however that EU are more cautious and they have strong objection on (GMO) Genetically modified foods etc.

[By the way - USA can use chlorine in chicken but EU also allows chlorine in fruits & vegetables etc - although EU allows chlorate not higher than the 0.01mg/kg.

An independent study (by the Chemical and Veterinary Inspection Office (CVAU) in Stuttgart) revelaed 1 in 10 food items in EU exceeds this chlorate level with some samples exhibiting hundreds of times more. ]

Another Example - Triclosan (in non food item)

In 2016, The United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) banned the incorporation of triclosan and 18 other antimicrobial chemicals from household soap products and the next year prevented companies from using triclosan in over-the-counter health care antiseptic products without premarket review.

These decisions were made after manufacturers failed to provide the FDA conclusive proof that triclosan was safe and effective in light of research suggesting concern over hormonal effect and the potential long-term public health risk triclosan use presents.

>> So FDA banned Triclosan even though it was not proven harmful via scientific evidence. FDA banned because it was not proven safe.

Below content are from our own NHS:

nhs.uk/news/medication/toot...

-------------------------------------------------------------

In 2016, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) banned the sale of antiseptic washes containing triclosan (and other ingredients) because of concerns that exposure could carry risks to human health, including being a possible cause of cancer, as well as potentially contributing to antimicrobial resistance.

The EU is also phasing out its use in domestic products, and European agencies are monitoring evidence on its safety and effectiveness.

-------------------------------------------------------------

** EU should have banned Triclosan all together long ago - rather than "phasing out".

[bamboo89 in reply to troy04]

Thanks for the detailed information - my statement re the PP was really a sort of shorthand or thumbnail rather than going into detail in an already detailed answer!

I do know that fruit and vegetables may be washed in chlorinated water in the EU, but it is only used to clean the produce prior to sale, so on many fruit and veg, its only on the surface, not in the tissue or inside the produce. In fact, some EU countries have switched to ozone treatment to lessen the quantity of chlorine ending up in the environment, but that practice has not yet been adopted across the EU. Even so, most of us thoroughly scrub (where possible) and wash produce prior to use, and peel it, unless its organic. This practice of chlorine washing is why some of our produce is labelled 'washed in spring water' to indicate the absence of chlorine in the bagged product. Personally, I don't buy non organic soft fruits and salad leaves (anything soft) wherever possible, though I will buy non organically grown cauliflower or broccoli, because I know systemic insecticides are not used on the latter, but may be used on the former - I'm more concerned about systemic pesticides than chlorine washing, since those substances will be in the tissue of the fruit/veg concerned. Chlorine can simply be washed off harder fruits and veg.

Chlorine washed chicken is probably safe to eat, but the use of chlorine or any other anti microbial wash may mean looser health controls and lower standards for the chickens as they're being grown on, since any microbes they pick up will be killed off by the wash after slaughter. And this is why chlorine washing of meat is banned in the EU - its about maintaining good practice, especially in terms of animal welfare, for the animals/birds concerned.

On the subject of triclosan, the limit of 0.3% (in handwashes, toothpastes and so on) is still considered relatively safe at this time, though undesirable; triclosan has already been banned in anything which might be contact with food or food products in the EU. The obvious problem with allowing a minimal 'safe' level of such chemicals in products is of course, if the consumer is using lots of different products containing triclosan, their personal exposure may be at more dangerous levels. This is also the problem with residual glyphosate in food products such as grain and breads - depends how much you eat as to whether your body has high levels of the stuff. Again, I personally only buy organic bread and grain cereals wherever possible to limit my own exposure to glyphosate (obviously more commonly known as Roundup, though the two products are not quite the same).

In regard to GM, I'll be sorry to lose the guarantee that GM produce is not used in the UK if we leave the EU, and if it is, it's clearly labelled as such. I use organic rapeseed oil to ensure its pressed rather than extracted with chemicals - GM canola is more likely to be extracted using chemicals, and I don't particularly fancy consuming residual hexane either. I could go on to mention the differences between EU beef production and US production, but better stop there, this could take hours...!

Suffice it to say that the EU, for instance, has (quite rightly) banned most fungicides intended for amateur use in gardening for environmental and health safety reasons - in America, that is not the case. I don't think it'll be long before glyphosate is banned too, certainly for amateur use, France has already done so. In general, the EU is quite strict about what they'll allow and what they won't in comparison with other parts of the world, but as always, there are some small differences, i.e. triclosan.

One small point - the precautionary principle is outlined under Article 191 of the Treaty on the functioning of the EU; I imagine your reference to article 7 General Food and Safety Law might come under that Article, since the Article covers 'a higher level of environmental protection through preventative decision taking in the case of risk'. That 'preventative decision taking' is really what I was alluding to...

[troy04 in reply to bamboo89]

I understand you are being careful, so I support your choice (of Organic etc).

However I have to point out a few things again:

1) I am sorry but Triclosan is not safe, there are numerous animal studies which have linked it with cancer, there is a recent vitro data in breast and ovarian cancer cells lines to support the possibility of triclosan being oncogenic.

Overall it is not proven to be safe (at any level or percentage) - hence FDA banned it years ago while EU is still "phasing out" - this is totally unacceptable.

2) Most people think GMO is banned in EU - I am afraid this is wrong. EU countries have the right not to grow GMO corps (to appeal) but that does not mean no one grows !

Example: Spain and Portugal (right now) grow an insect-resistant corn variety (MON810) – this is 100% GMO crop and already approved for cultivation in the EU.

Besides this - EU countries import 30 million tons of GMO grain annually (to feed animals) and thefore enters into our food chain.

3) I can write lots of chlorine related information but just so you know - water companies in the UK regularly add chlorine and most of us use it for drinking - straight from kitchen tap ! You would be washing chlorine from vegetables using chlorinated water !

(Note - other than using it for reguar disinfectant - during maintenance of the pipe network, water companies in the UK add huge amount of chlorine).

4) EU's track record of animal welfare is worse than many developed countries.

Example - Last year in France - there was a laying hens farm certified as free-range, where the presence of ammonia inside the building was evident - but the auditors did not even have measuring equipment - so how come they perform audit? French authorities told the EU commission last year (in Spring) that they had now bought measurement equipment. ( this was just a tip of the iceberg, I can provide lots of example)

----------

I am not anti EU by any means - I like EU and many of its regulatory standards - but I do not accept EU is best in H&S etc and other developed countries are not.

[bamboo89 in reply to troy04]

This isn't really the place for an extended discussion of this nature - it has no relevance to migraine. There's a fair bit more I'd like to say, but won't other than just saying I prefer chlorine in tapwater than not - its all about balance of risks. I will attempt a private message response, but it means cutting between that and this public response of yours...

[troy04 in reply to bamboo89]

I think People can see who started putting irrelevant and politically biased information quite easily. Readers have the right to know facts.

[bamboo89 in reply to troy04]

I have responded privately, but I must admit, having gone to your profile to leave a private message, I do rather wonder why you're on this site. There is no information under your profile, and given your name would suggest you are male, I doubt you're suffering from OC?

My response to the original post was intended to help clarify the situation in terms of American information on a food substance in comparison with something available within the EU, in this case, the UK, and was not intended to be political in any way. Have you posted here simply for political reasons?

[troy04 in reply to bamboo89]

As I said - you are the only one who started spreading politically biased information. I have nothing to answer to you and besides you do not decide who can and cannot participate in a thread or in this site - particularly when you are trying to provide wrong information to others (most certainly to influence politically) ...

I have also noticed you are going back and editing your notes - but your statement: "and hopefully will remain so" confirms what you were up to - it is absolutely political with an intent to mislead others.

You were wrong with your "The Precautionary Principle" - understanding and you still are even after editing your notes.

... and do not send me private message, keep your opinion to yourself, I have no interest in your Brexit debate.

[Newme1]

Soy sauce definitely a msg trigger for me ..its worth swopping back to the pricier one and comparing.... if after three months no difference then its not the soy sauce good luck

[blinc in reply to Newme1]

Thank you, yes, definitely the cheap stuff is a trigger I've discovered