Fasting and visceral fat (or at least waist size)

[Subtle_badger]

I started fasting via Michael Mosley's Fast800. So low calorie (I was between 800-1000 kcal/day), low carb, IF. In the first month I lost 7.4kg, and 10cm off my waist.

healthunlocked.com/fasting-...

Then I joined HU, took advice from various people and upped the calories a lot. I've enjoyed the food, and it's definitely a WOE that I can see myself doing forever, but the weight loss slowed and the waist loss virtually ended. In the last 4 months I have only lost another 5kg and more worryingly, only 1 cm. The waist is a double concern, because it's only 2cm from being a symptom for metabolic syndrome, and it's still 10cm more than it was 5 years ago. I wasn't menopausal then, but still that 10cm must be fat. I haven't grown an organ in the meantime. That says to me I have a ton of belly fat. And the mirror seemed to tell me that maybe a pot belly was starting.

Well, the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result, so last week I started a fast that ended up going for 60 hours. I stopped then because of precautions due to CV19. But I felt good, so dabbled with ADF, doing 36 hour fasts on Saturday and yesterday. Well, yesterday was a cheese fast (that's now a thing!), because I snacked a little in the evening 😳

I got on the scale this morning, and was disappointed to see it unmoved - actually at the high end of my fluctuations - but then I walked past a mirror and did a double take. Got out a tape measure, I have lost 3cm off my waist in 7 days!!

This ties in with studies I have read that fasting and VLCD are better for targeting visceral fat. That certainly seems true for me.

(I know I said no fasting during CV19, but that was 2 months ago. I've continued IF in the meantime, and now i feel I can do slightly extended fasts safely. I am excited to try a longer fast when the world is safer)

[S11m Volunteer 70lb IF20]

Hi, Subtle_badger - I am glad it is working for you.

One kg a month is OK.

Waist measure meant is a good indication of visceral fat - but tends to be inconsistent.

My waist measurement is now inches less than half my height - and is almost down to my inside leg.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to S11m]

Thanks for the response.

5kg is fine, but it's not off the part I most want to lose weight, which is my point. (I think it's mostly off my boobs 🤯) To target visceral fat, slow and steady is not the way to go.

2.5cm more gone, and I am doing OK on ADF, so could do it for life, if I decided to or needed to.

[Kateefc]

Certainly given me something further too look into.

My belly & waist is my worst but my breasts have also gone from a 32b to a 34dd, my thighs are a good 6 inches thicker & my upper arms floppy too (requires dedicated exercise aswell as fat loss) then there’s my back & bottom! 😫

Hoping with my new energy (not quite to my pre illnesses energy but I’m hopeful) I am motivated to actually continue regular exercise to make it a habit.

Exercise is a big part of mine as I’ve been pretty much sleeping or on the sofa for the most part of 10 years! But this keto diet is certainly making me feel better & week 1 weight loss was impressive!

Let’s hope we continue to improve ourselves health wise & physically x

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to Kateefc]

It took me a while to get back up to former energy levels when I started low carb. Definite keto flu, and then just bonking on rides. But I was fairly active and healthy before, so your situation is different.

5 months in, and I am better than I ever was in some ways - not far of lifetime fitness, which isn't bad considering I am approaching 60.

If you are going to do research into fasting, this is a good start. It's a review of many studies into the subject. The results are impressive.

You have to register to download it, but you can literally use any email address, it doesn't have to be your own, and immediately download it.

nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N...

[Kateefc in reply to Subtle_badger]

I won’t be completely new to intermittent fasting as all my life I’ve hated breakfast & since an adult have very rarely eaten it (hangovers & holidays are when I can eat within an hour or 2 of waking up) 🤣. Up until I was Ill I only ate when I was hungry which often was only around 2pm & 6pm & some days not at all.

Through my twenties I also did a yearly 3 week health detox of eating raw foods for a week then a 10 day fast followed by raw foods again, that was for skin & just a general system cleanse which involved certain massages & other daily treatments to help the cleanse. I always got clearer skin, brighter eyes & just a good refresh dropping a few pounds I didn’t really need to.

That website when I clicked on register/subscribe/get free access didn’t load as got a ‘server does not exist’ error.

I’ve not had keto flu & hope I don’t!

Really good that’s it’s working so well for you & I bet your loving the umph it’s giving you.

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs in reply to Kateefc]

Like you my natural eating pattern has been to miss breakfast and lunch, but I had been finding it hard to stop eating once I started which would lead me to binge on choc, cakes, anything sweet basically, hence why I put 60lbs back on over past 15 months. I just felt totally out of control. Started LCHF a few days ago, not counting calories, just eating when I am hungry and so far not had cravings. Will weigh in on Wed, to see if I have lost any weight. Fasted for 20hrs yesterday without any problems. Would consider doing a longer fast if this is beneficial.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to Pink4eva]

I think LCHF is very helpful with fasting. Or perhaps more accurately, fasting is a natural offshoot of LCHF.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs]

Total now 6cm in about 3 weeks 🤪

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

I thought autophagy started after 18-20hrs

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs]

So? That is certainly not my experience. Longer than 24 hours definitely has measurable benefits that I was not getting with shorter fasts. This reflects peer-reviewed studies.

But hey, I guess if it's in a book, it must be true.

[thisnewlife]

Hello Subtle, congrats on loosing the inches..

Do you really mean one can fast for this long (60hrs)? How do you do it? do you take water as well, just something to keep your energy going? Very curious to know. Thanks

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to thisnewlife]

I happened to sort of live blogged my first longer fast on here

healthunlocked.com/fasting-...

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

Hi I have started LCHF nine days ago and been doing IF on and off for a while. I would like to kick start my weight loss to encourage me to carry on. So am considering doing the Fast 800 plan, but have also read articles warning against low calorie plans as this can slow metabolism resulting in reduced weight loss. Have been trying to get away from calorie counting and just eat when hungry. I completed a 48hr fast yesterday, which I was pleased with. Could have gone on for longer but didn’t see the point.

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

Hi Subtle, just wondering how you are getting on with LCHF and IF? What pattern of fasting are you doing? As well as starting the plan I also started taking HRT around the same time. I have had a problem with binge eating and I think the medication is helping with this as well.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to Pink4eva]

I missed this question. Sorry.

I gather you have started fasting. How are you getting on?

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

That’s ok, only lost 1 1/2lbs last week which was a bit disappointing as I had stuck to LCHF and had a 48hr fast. At the moment I am 67hrs into a fast, only having water and black coffee. Am hoping for a better weight loss this week.I was asking what your fasting pattern is like?

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to Pink4eva]

OK, I am a little concerned. I deliberately didn't do longer fasting at the beginning because I didn't trust myself not to just try not-eating to lose weight. I am worried your relationship to food might be getting more broken.

Just something to consider.

My current pattern (for about a month) has been ADF, alternate day fasting. I ate in a 12 hour window yesterday, I am fasting today for 36 hours, and will eat in a 12 hour window tomorrow. Repeat...

I have only lost about 3kg in month I have been doing this. To be fair, it's 3 of what will probably be my last 5kg,and weightloss is slower as you approach your goal. But even when I did a 62 hour fast in march, I lost less than 3kg.

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

Yes I am worried that I might be cutting my calorie intake too low too soon, don’t want my body to go into starvation mode. Also, because I was disappointed at lower weight loss last week, it did occur to me that psychologically it may not be healthy for me to cut back so hard, as I may be doing it for the wrong reason, if that makes sense. So, glad you mentioned it, thank you. I am just desperate to loose weight quickly, in case the cravings come back. I still don’t have very much faith in myself.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to Pink4eva]

How did your fast go?

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

Straight after your message I broke fast, after 68hrs. Like you said, I think I was fasting to try to loose more weight, so thanks again for pointing it out. I have decide to try ADF, so that I don’t get too extreme, with maybe a 48-72hr fast once a month. Have lost 2lbs this week, wanted more but keep reminding myself this weight loss and way of eating has to be sustainable.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to Pink4eva]

Sounds very sensible. My research says that ADF shouldn't lead to metabolic slow down. 🤞

My maintenance plan does involve fasting, now that I know I can do it. If the scale creeps up, I will just turn up the fasting switch to get me back to my desired weight/waist.

[Pink4eva ADF 72hrs]

Yes, I have lost 6 stone 4 times over past 15yrs, I really don’t want to put myself through that again. I do find IF relatively easy, so want to incorporate this into my weight loss plan. Haven’t tried LCHF before but it seems to be working for me. The amazing thing for me has been having virtually no cravings for sweet things, therefore no binges, since I started it. I did start HRT at the same time so this may be a contributing factor. Just glad that I am on the ‘weight loss wagon’. Also being able to discuss issues with people who understand and are dealing with similar problems is invaluable. Just very glad I found this forum.

[MintTeaMascara]

Subtle_badger you might find this interesting youtu.be/tMy3MDYWXiA(Not working as expected?)

From what I gathered it's really good if there's some health issue that it would be helpful with, but can imagine it would dangerous in some circumstances.

[MintTeaMascara]

You'd probably find this interesting as well youtu.be/4UkZAwKoCP8(Not working as expected?)

I'm trying to start a 5:2 style-ish diet after this healthunlocked.com/nhsweigh...

I'm not at the point of fasting 2 times a week yet but have been doing 2 very low calorie days for about a month now (2 fresh banana milkshakes in place of breakfast and lunch, and a light dinner. ) and my gut is a lot less bloated, swollen and sore. I've still got some fat to shift but it's soft now and disconnected from the organs if that makes sense? It's not all one big, hard, painful, intertwined swell anymore.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to MintTeaMascara]

Your diet seems the opposite of a fasting approach. Fasting is about letting the stomach rest, letting blood glucose drop and lowering insulin production. Starting your day with 2 blended bananas is a very carby meal, and would bring your overnight fast to a screeching halt.

As it's working for you, you should probably keep doing it, but it's not fasting and you won't be reaping any of the benefits of fasting.

[MintTeaMascara in reply to Subtle_badger]

Yeah, I understand fasting... Think you misunderstand what I'm saying.. I'm just trying to illustrate that I am drastically cutting down fullness on 2 days a week, for now, and this is just a step for me to get used to having less food on those days before moving into a full fast.

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to MintTeaMascara]

The problem is, that way of eating does not prepare you for a full fast. A fast is about running out glycogen (sugar) and switching to fat burning. That food is keeping your carbohydrate metabolism ticking over. The only ways to prepare for a long fast is by shorter fasts, or by eating low carb (and lower protein) meals

I saw that you binged, and I can see why. 2 bananas will spike your blood glucose and insulin. That will then cause your blood sugar to crash, and if you are not fat adapted, your body will cry out for more sugar. Tie that with insulin silencing leptin (a satiety hormone), and carbohydrates not suppressing ghrelin (a hunger hormone) , your body will be screaming in hunger. I think that breakfast on day with few calories practically guarantees a binge.

[MintTeaMascara in reply to Subtle_badger]

The binge started because of a personal issue I was going through at home, subtle. It's not been an issue before and the binge did not happen on one of my light days where I have bananas. I'm pretty aware of how I feel around food.

I don't have plans to increase fasting past the two days a week that I'm aiming for. I'm also not fasting to burn fat but to break the habit of mindless eating.

Hope that brings some clarity.

I only joined this community to be able to respond to your post but am going to un-join as I have no intention to do long fasts or anything of that sort.

All the best

[Subtle_badger 16Kg IF 72hrs in reply to MintTeaMascara]

I was only talking about intermittent fasting, not longer.

But that's fine. I didn't mean to offend, I was really just trying to help.

[MintTeaMascara in reply to Subtle_badger]

Don't worry about it, I know you mean no harm and don't come from a place of bad intentions.

[JimiM]

So, I started the online Fast 800 programme at the beginning of the year. I use my Tanita BC-1500 body composition monitor to measure my numbers. On the Tanita scales "12" is at the top of the "healthy" visceral fat range.

Scales that use bio-impedance to measure internal (visceral fat) and external (tummy/bum/legs/arm/etc.) fat are not necessarily 100% accurate but they are a very good indicator. I checked the readings mine gave with the readings on a professional monitor at a BUPA medical and know that mine are ok.

I started at 121.5Kg with a visceral fat reading of 21. I am currently at 11, my target is a constant 10, so if I go up a notch I am still in the "healthy" range. I am about 8Kg away from a "healthy" BMI, but my visceral fat dropped to 12, "healthy" over 2 months ago.

Following the Fast 800 plan as designed, and ignoring uninformed advice that does not understand the current science of weight loss , has seen me drop over 30Kg since Jan 1st. It has also seen me lose the important visceral fat. Fast 800 actually works.