In a previous reply to a thread about using MM as a sleep aid, I mentioned that although I did not think it was addictive, I felt that it could easily become a regular part of your going to sleep routine and in that sense, possibly habit forming, so I suggested mixing it up with the "melatonin 123" method or GABA that I also use as sleep aids.
With further experience with using MM as a sleep aid, I can attest to the idea that it can be a bit habit forming and since it is easier and faster than melatonin 123, when I am feeling lazy or forgot to take the melatonin at the right times, I tend to use the MM more frequently than I should. The problem with more frequent use is that my body tends to become more tolerant of the MM and consequently it was requiring more and more MM to achieve the same sleep benefit, whereas when I keep mixing it up with melatonin and sometimes GABA or sometimes nothing, it only requires a relatively small amount of MM to get a similar sleep effect each time.
The longer I can go between MM uses, the more effective it can remain at lower doses or at least that is how it is working out for me so far in this experiment and I wanted to share this information on this forum as some members have indicated that they use MM as a sleep aid among other things.
Bottom line for me is that using MM "every night as a sleep aid is going to be counter productive over the longer term", while using it off and on or sporadically seems to keep the sleep effectiveness good over time while not requiring an increase in dose to do so.
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Since we are on the subject of warnings about MM, people should be aware that CBD is an inhibitor of the CYP3A4 enzyme. What this means in plain English is it will affect the way that many other drugs are metabolized and in so doing is likely to increase their apparent dosages and/or duration. There is no one size fits all answer because the result will depend on the amount of CBD and the other drugs involved. If this is a concern you will have to Google the names of the drugs you are taking one at a time, plus the term "CYP3A4".
It is, but probably impossible to find on this forum now.
Basically, I decide what time I want to go to bed. Let's say I want to go to bed at 11:00 pm. I take one melatonin capsule at 9:00 pm, one capsule at 10:00 pm and one capsule at 11:00 pm and usually around 10:45 pm I am already yawning. The time separation is important though and I have no idea if it will work with timed release melatonin formulations. I do know that if I take all three capsules at once, it does not work or if I take two and then one an hour later it does not work or any combination except the 1 2 3 has not worked.
I use 10 mg capsules because that is what I have in stock, but I have done it with 5 mg capsules and it works that way also. I have not tried it with 3 mg capsules so I don't know if that works or not.
Some people can not tolerate melatonin even though the body produces it in multiple places every day, but the majority of people can tolerate melatonin.
What I am trying to do with this method is reestablish a melatonin peak at around one in the morning and this I think may help realign the circadian rhythm to a more normal state. There are other small things you can do to help get better sleep such as making sure your room is dark enough so that you can not see the palm of your hand in front of your face. If that is not practical then soft night shades will work. A cooler room in the mid to upper sixties tends to promote better sleep. Getting a good dose of outside morning sunshine for at least 5 minutes every morning. Stop watching tv and computer monitors at least two hours before bedtime as these are bright enough into tricking your body into thinking it is still daylight and in turn may delay natural melatonin production and release, interfering with my circadian rhythm and making it harder to go to sleep.
As you can, with this melatonin 1 2 3 method, you have to remember to take the doses on time and when I have forgotten, I came to rely more on the MM and this in turn meant increased use of MM to obtain the same effect. So the best for me is to mix it up with different sleep aids such as GABA, certain magnesium supplements, valerian root, lemon balm, certain teas, L-theanine etc.
Thank you for the feedback, it is very helpful so others can get an idea of how well it works. Melatonin 123 and MM are the two best sleep aids I have used.
Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to describe. Keeping the sleep aids rotating will go a long way in making sure it all keeps working as it should and most effectively.
One other thing that can help some people sleep if there is a lot of outside or ambient noise is to use the soft foam ear plugs. For me I find they are somewhat helpful even though there is not a noise problem. I use the highest decibel rating I can find.
Another one that I find helpful is to think of something in my life that makes me very happy or is associated with very happy memories. I let my mind wander into that situation and sometimes I am asleep very quickly!
There was another forum member who tried the melatonin 123 and said it worked so good for him that he now looked forward to going to bed after his third melatonin, but he also said he felt he was waking up earlier than he had thought he should. I imagine that might be because he was getting better quality sleep in REM state, but I suggested that he might try making the third melatonin some type of delayed or time release form to see if that could extend his sleeping period. Unfortunately he never replied so no information on whether that helps or not. I would just add a time release form of melatonin to my next supplement order to find out, except when I do use melatonin 123, I do not wake up any earlier than normal, so I would have no way of knowing if it would have worked for him.
Hi there , I was using the ratio 4:1 cbd/ THC tincture more for pain at the beginning of my diagnosis . I fall asleep well but I don’t think I get complete rest ful sleep so my dr said to try melatonin and I got the lowest dose and took only one and I felt like I had a dizzy hang over head the next morning lol. I am 5’2 and 95 lbs but I’m very sensitive to all of that . Dr prescribed Baclofen muscle relaxer for me too , I broke it in half and still was groggy the next day . I guess those aren’t for me either . 😊. Karen
Did the melatonin help your sleep at all? If so, there may still be a way. If not then you are right and it is probably not for you.
The "melatonin hangover" that you are referring to is very common. I got it when I first started using melatonin and again when I upped my dose to 70 mg / day total. They both lasted about a week or less and my body seemed to adjust after that with no more groggy feeling in the morning. Others I have talked to about it said they also felt the groggy feeling for the first week or less and then it just goes away. It seems like if your body were producing melatonin at the right time and right amount, you would never get the melatonin hangover in the first place because your body would already be making enough melatonin where the body would not need to get used to it again. I am currently testing with 10 mg capsules because that's what I just happen to have in stock. So I am getting 30 mg per night with my current dosing.
One option for those who are super sensitive is to try the one milligram melatonin chewables for kids as three of those will only equal 3 mg per night total. The 3 mg capsules are usually the lowest dose you might find on a drug store shelf and next would be the 5 mg capsules or pills. Here is a link to one milligram melatonin :
Since I have 10 mg melatonin in stock right now, that is what I am taking, so yes, 30 mg per night. I have previously gone as high as 70 mg melatonin per day as an experiment to try to replicate an older human study. I had no ill effects from that experiment, but some people can not tolerate melatonin so I do not recommend melatonin. I just describe what I am doing myself and what if any effects I notice. Generally all major on line supplement suppliers carry 1 mg, 3 mg, 5 mg, 10 mg, 12 mg and 20 mg and there are other dosing available from a few suppliers that deliver less than 1 mg per capsule. Brand has not been a factor in my experience, but it seems like 20 mg capsules seem to be high priced for what they are.
This recent study adds confirmation to the idea that the light generated from monitor screens can impact sleep negatively and stopping use by 9 pm may help :
I am currently experimenting with "melatonin 123" to see if I can improve or fine tune the effectiveness of it and perhaps better adjust my circadian rhythm to act as it was designed to do and help me get to sleep with no help at all...sort of like the good old days!
With this experiment, I am spreading the doses further apart and I am going to take the first dose at or near sunset because it just seems that sunset would be a triggering device that lets your body know that the daylight has come to an end and it is time for the body to start producing melatonin. The third dose will still be at bedtime and the second dose will be right in the middle.
Of course just speculation on my part, but I tried taking my first dose last night around 8:30 pm (a little bit after sunset) and I noticed that around 11 pm I was yawning almost uncontrollably and I hadn't yet taken dose 3! It was the kind of yawning where my eyes were watering with each yawn. If I am correct, then I am starting the first dose of melatonin at or near where production would occur naturally or to say that a little differently I am trying to replicate what my body used to do on its own minus significant amounts of artificial lighting from more sources than ever before. Btw, last night was the best rest I have had in some time! I will see if I can repeat or come close to repeating again or possibly do even better over time.
So as an initial assessment, this may be a positive, but I will continue this experiment to determine what I can as far as improving melatonin 123, stay tuned for updates and a very good nights sleep! 😵😵😵😵😵
So I continued the melatonin 123 experiment and am reporting my results as I mentioned I would, starting with one capsule every 45 minutes, one capsule every hour (the original timing), one capsule every hour and 15 minutes or 75 minutes, one capsule every hour and a half or 90 minutes, one capsule every hour and 45 minutes or 105 minutes and one capsule every two hours or 120 minutes.
What I found is that the once every hour dose was the most useful for me as far as sleep and the one hour and 15 minute or 75 minute timing was similar to the every hour dose that I originally started with, but the every hour dose is easier to remember so that is best for me.
In conclusion, I will continue using melatonin 123 with every hour dosing. So if I want to go to bed at 11:00 pm then I take one capsule at 9:00 pm, one capsule at 10 pm and one capsule at 11:00 pm and that remains the optimal timing for me to help promote sleep.
Ideally, a sleep aid should be non addictive, effective,safe and fairly easy to obtain. It would also be a plus if that sleep aid also offers other health benefits or at a minimum has a relatively low possibility for unwanted side effects.
A couple of common sleep aids that might fit this idea would be valerian root extract and magnesium glycinate. The valerian root extract may possibly have other health benefits based on studies of this herb such as an analgesic/pain reliever as outlined in the following study :
Valerian root extract has been used extensively as a sleep aid and has a good safety profile making it a logical choice for people who respond well to it. I like to take valerian approximately an hour before I go to bed.
Magnesium Glycinate is well noted for being one of the more absorbable forms of magnesium with minimal chance to encounter diarrhea as is more common with certain forms of magnesium such as magnesium oxide, magnesium citrate, magnesium hydroxide and magnesium sulfate. Some people who are very sensitive to magnesium of any type may potentially still have a problem with diarrhea even with magnesium glycinate, but that would likely be fairly rare. The other potential health benefits for magnesium are well documented through hundreds of studies and PWPs would be well suited to consider this form for a sleep aid because magnesium has shown itself to be quite useful in helping with multiple PD related symptoms as outlined in the link below. Magnesium Glycinate has a very good safety profile. I like to take magnesium glycinate at 400 ~ 425 mg about two hours before bedtime for a good nights sleep. I have found that this effect may not be noticeable until you have built magnesium up in your system if you are currently insufficient or deficient.
I don't know if you can or can't, but I have done so myself and I also have another supplement that contains both melatonin and valerian along with 8 other sleep aids all in one capsule, so apparently manufacturers think you can.
In my continuing experiment with sleep aids, I have found that being active or very active during the day seems to add synergy to any of the above mentioned sleep aids. I also have noted synergy with Magnesium Glycinate taken later in the evening in conjunction with the other sleep aids. I found a similar effect when using Magnesium L Threonate instead of Magnesium Glycinate and I found that both of these forms of magnesium manage to very greatly lessen the chance for diarrhea. It seems to me that a less obvious effect of these two forms of magnesium is that if I wake during the night it is fairly easy to get back to sleep. The combination of magnesium and melatonin, seems to increase the "melatonin hangover" feeling which to me is odd because my experience with the melatonin hangover feeling is that it goes away after one to two weeks of regular use, but the addition of magnesium to the melatonin seems to bring that hangover feeling back where I am not very anxious to get out of bed in the morning so I think I will try and avoid those two together. Even when I took 70 mg of melatonin per day as a previous experiment, the melatonin hangover dissipated over a period of roughly two weeks, but the addition of magnesium brings that hangover right back first thing in the morning.
The combination of MM and magnesium is a fairly potent combo for inducing sleep and staying asleep. This combination may be useful when having an extra difficult time getting to sleep on occasion.
Lastly, being on a regular schedule has also shown some benefit in terms of helping to get to sleep fairly quickly.
I will continue to update as I learn more about these sleep aids and possibly others.
Here is a link to a recent study abstract that discusses some adverse events associated with melatonin, as a sleep aid, which may be of use when trying to determine which sleep aid may be appropriate for you. If you have access to the full study, it should be a bit more informative.
The following abstract discusses how bright light exposure during the day and early evening may be of use to help with insomnia, whereas late evening bright light may be counter productive because it seems to suppress melatonin production and sleepiness! Pretty much what has been suspected and is now proved.
I was feeling fairly tired the other night, but wasn't quite ready to go to bed and just for the heck of it, I decided to take a few hits of an MM cigarette that was given to me at one of the MM dispensaries that I buy from to try it out. This MM cigarette was of the Sativa variety. I normally use the Indica variety as a very effective sleep aid as mentioned in the original post above. I do not normally use the Sativa variety, but I thought I would give it a try since I was not quite ready for bed.
What I learned from this experience is that for me, sativa provides a completely different feel, experience and reaction compared to indica which mainly tends to relax me and help me get to sleep. The sativa made me feel wide awake and seemed to add a certain amount of clarity to my thinking process and I actually got back on my computer and started doing some reading and for some reason what I was reading seemed unusually clear to me and fairly easy to understand even though the reading material was a little complicated for me! I did not feel tired any more and for lack of better descriptive words, I would say that the sativa made me feel more focused with a sharpened mind. It was definitely invigorating compared to indica. I had noticed a somewhat similar effect when using sativa previously , but thought it was just a one time experience and not likely to be repeated, but there I was with a lot of those same feelings again. These sativa experiences make me want to consider doing this during the daytime when I am already wide awake and seeing if it will have a similar effect and also to see if it might improve my comprehension of what I am reading.
From these experiences, I would definitely not recommend sativa as a sleep aid, but I would definitely like to experiment a bit more to better understand how it affects my thinking process. Part of what I think I felt was a boost in creativity and that particular aspect I find very intriguing if it proves to be correct in subsequent testing of sativa. Another important point is if I do not go to bed right away after taking indica, I do feel high. On the other hand, I did not feel high at all with the sativa, but I definitely felt increased mental clarity in a way that I have not felt before other than possibly the last time I tried sativa, only this time the feeling was a bit stronger and clearer and I think that was due to the fact that I used a bit more than the last time I used sativa. The not feeling high aspect was a definite plus to the sativa over the indica variety. The closest thing I can use for comparison is when I experimented for a very short while with methylene blue which did seem to add just a bit to mental clarity, but definitely no where near as strong an effect as sativa nor as smooth an effect as sativa.
I guess one way to describe the difference between sativa and indica is to say that these are like two completely different herbs with very little in common in terms of their immediate effects!
Overall, I think another sativa experiment will be in my not too distant future and I definitely will never choose sativa when sleep is the desired response!
I have continued experimenting with the previously mentioned sleep aids and what I have noticed is that for me, mag oil (MO) is at least as helpful as magnesium glycinate in conjunction with melatonin 123. The advantage of MO is that if I forget to take the magnesium glycinate an hour or so before bedtime, I can just apply MO to my chest, stomach and neck within 15 minutes of bedtime and it gives a similar effect of improved sleep and quality of sleep plus it is easier to fall back to sleep if I happen to wake up during the night. I will need to experiment a bit more to be sure, but I think MO may be slightly more effective than magnesium glycinate and it is definitely less expensive than magnesium glycinate. Since I often carry a small 2 ounce spray bottle of MO in my pocket, I can use it anytime, anywhere.
I had to discontinue my use of medical marijuana(MM) in order to try this latest experiment. On that point, I am glad, because I kind of had a feeling that MM might be getting habit forming, but not addictive and I think that idea may be correct because for the first week of no MM, I was definitely missing it. From this point forward, I think I will save MM for use only on nights when I absolutely have to get to sleep.
I know many forum members use MO now and I am hoping that others can give feedback on applying MO before bedtime to give further confirmation that it is helpful for improving sleep and quality of sleep for more than just myself. I apply to the back of my neck, chest and stomach. I chose these areas because I can feel tension relief in those areas when doing deep breathing exercises, especially my chest.
I know this may seem like nitpicking to some, but sleep issues are a definite problem with many PWP and having options for sleep can be a very helpful thing. The other thing to consider is that many bodily repair functions are done in deeper quality sleep and we can all use that potential!
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