Hey, yall, we've recently been talking about various anti-aging regimens, and doing hit and run (take a lot, then days/weeks without, then a lot again). In this context we talked a bit about intermittent fasting and whether that needs a hit and run approach as well. Don't know answer, but want folks to know that I started 4 days ago doing a 9/15 (had always been trying to be 12/12). Since then, and coincidence or not, my stress level, according to fitbit, has been way down -- each of the past three days. Group of lowest levels ever had with rare exception. (Not drastic, just low, mid 70s rather than usual 80s) Wondered why as been getting lost of pleasant exercise, etc, and sleeping okay. Well, came across an article saying this:
"Intermittent fasting causes us to produce cortisol , and if we’re already over-producing the stress hormone as a result of being anxious, stressed or burning the candle at both ends, it's simply too much. The result? Sleeplessness, anxiety and disrupted periods.
Why does it cause these symptoms? Our body doesn’t know why there’s a lack of food, it just knows that it has to prioritise the search for it. 'Scarcity of food is a stressor for our body. Our ancient brains can’t determine if we’ve stepped into a vast expanse of desert, or we just haven’t popped to Sainsbury’s, or if we’re doing this by design. It just knows there isn’t any fuel coming.'"
Has anyone else noticed this effect on stress score? Now I'm wondering if it also should be a hit and run thing (doing this a few days a month, say). OR, on the other hand, does the body finally re-aclimate and go back to normal after awhile.
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I stop eating 5-6pm and then eat after 10;30am. Sometimes I forget to eat and go to 12. I drink 2 mugs of coffee with a splash of almond milk between 7 and 9 am. When I do eat it is real food and includes protein, carbs with fiber, vegetables, fruit, and snacking on nuts and seeds. One square of 100% chocolate.
I don't use a stress calculator. Sometimes I fall off my wagon and stray since I am human. Chips, ice cream, and chocolate are my weaknesses. I am stuck with a low-sodium diet, so I am constantly calculating sodium, which eliminates a lot of food. Sodium is in everything.
Today is Sunday and I made scones and eggs for breakfast. Sometimes go out to lunch or party with friends. At that point, I eat what looks good.
That sounds really nice. Would love one of your scones. Not sure fitbit is an accurate "stress calculator" but it does have a measurement that has been rather steady except when I've been sick but it's gone significantly down meaning more stress (without sickness) while doing just this 11 hr fast deal for now 4 days. Which is why I searched on the internet for why possibly.
Hey, Vlaminck - It's me again. Rather that trying to focus on the one thing outside of conventional treatment that might provide a health benefit, how about thinking in broader terms. Aussie surfer and creative writer, Tim Baker, is beating the odds (so far) of a deadly prostate cancer diagnosis. He has written a VERY frank book about his experience which is instructive to all cancer patients and the doctors who treat them. In his extensive exploration of ways to improve his survival odds he came up with a useful and easy to remember lifestyle acronym, MEDS. As he says in the post linked below:
My approach is probably best summed up in this handy, self-care mantra. Remember to take your M.E.D.S.
Meditation
Exercise
Diet
Sleep
These are the four pillars of my self-care, in no way designed to replace, but rather to complement conventional therapies.
Meditation is the foundation of this approach. The ability to cultivate a clear mind, to be able to drop into a place of mental quiet and stillness, to silence the cycling anxieties and uncertainties of a cancer diagnosis, is priceless. There’s nothing terribly mysterious about meditation – in essence it’s about quietening the intellectual mind, or what Buddhists call the “monkey mind”, constantly jumping from one thought to the next. This is done by focusing on the breath moving in and out of the nostrils and, depending on what meditation tradition you practice, may include repeating a mantra, visualisation or noticing subtle sensations in the physical body. I practice Vipassana meditation, but I don’t think it matters what technique you practice, they all share the same core element of quietening the mind.
Think of a clear mind like a blue sky and your thoughts as clouds. The blue sky still exists even when obscured by clouds. We can quietly observe the clouds as they drift by without cursing or identifying with them, and eventually the clear blue sky re-appears. My meditation practice feels like this. I don’t instantly drop into some transcendental bliss state or see rainbows and unicorns. But I do at times access a state of “no mind” where everything drops away, the clouds part and only a subtle vibration or hum is left that can be deeply comforting.
A heart-warming and insightful story of doing the difficult things it often takes to beat back cancer. The first link is to a short weekly blog post at the Prostate Cancer Foundation Of Australia - from which the above excerpt was taken. If interested, you can find his book, Petting The Shark, at online resellers. The second link is to a short article (PDF download) about his unexpected diagnosis, initial surgery, and later treatment with RT and chemo. The link is to a PDF file and the article is an honest expression of his initial trauma and his current adjustments to a much altered life on treatment. The sort of patient account every doctor should read once a month or so to remind him/her what the patient's life is often like.
Prostate Cancer Foundation Of Australia - Weekly blog: Finding your place of peace, 19 April 2022
Cujoe--such a thoughtful, helpful, and inspirational reply. Thank you. I haven't been meditating lately, never was that big on it as hard to keep my mind from wandering, but -- for MEDS -- got to give it a better try! Best to you and may your holidays be bright!
It's OK if your mind wanders during meditation. The meditation is noticing the wandering and coming back to your anchor, whatever that might be (mantra, breath, etc.)
I eat dinner before 5 pm and have breakfast around 8:30. I didn't know that correlation between cortisol and time restricted eating. I don't have the greatest sleep. Maybe I will experiment. I have noticed that when I am consistent with time restricted eating my resting heart rate goes down 3-4 beats/minute. After reading about time restricted eating reducing breast cancer recurrence by 36% I figured it couldn't hurt. But sleep is important too.
I just googled time restricted eating effects on sleep and many articles came up discussing the benefits on sleep. I won't post anything here because there were so many and I really shouldn't go down this rabbit hole. 🤣 Thanks for this thought provoking post!
Thanks you, Astro -- since writing this post, my fitbit is telling me I may be even-ing out. Maybe the cortisol, etc ., if the immediate response and once body adjusts, no more.
I know a few people (including my wife) who practice intermittent fasting, by cutting out food for 16-18 hours each day. No reports of raised stress levels or feeling they are in a battle. Quite the opposite. When I tried it myself I found the same.
What you cite, the article, it has no relevance to a 9 to 15 intermittent fast. 3 to 5 days of fasting, that is what can trigger stress symptoms and should not be done weekly. But you say your stress level has been down and you sleep well. So where is the problem? Women can do 8 to 16 indefinitely too good effect. Unless diabetic maybe.
hey there, I can only speak to how IF has worked for me. I do hear your point about stress hormones and weight gain, but it also stresses different organs when we over eat or are eating at all hours of the day. The biggest benefit besides some weight loss that I feel IF does is applying a discipline to my eating. I make better choices, (Not always great ones) but I have gained a better awareness and responsibility. I have been doing a 12/12 for over 3 years now. 6 years ago I lost 65 pounds only to see in spite of staying active the scale began to drift back up. I blew a disc in my back and had to have a repair which resulted in even more weight gain. When I was free to return to walking I noticed I was really short of breath and went to a cardiologist. After all the standard test over a few months I had a Cath done which uncovered 83% block of my LAD (Widow Maker artery). I did my Cardiac Rehab which told me what levels were safe to work out at and I was pretty low mentally because I had no idea how I was going to get the weight off and get back in shape. My daughter was reading a book about IF and I dove in to research all about it. I knew I could never do the fasting day method so I experimented with “closing my window” limiting when I ate. I finally zeroed in on the 12/12 because I knew for me to stick with it I had to be able to maintain it. But I also went back to using Fitness Pal as another tool to help support me, not just in weight loss, but the more difficult weight maintenance. It has been 3 years since my stent was put in and I have been maintaining a 60 pound loss. It went very slow and bounced around a lot. I try to walk a mile a day and use Nordic poles, stay under 1800 cals a day (except holidays) and use a 12/12 that gets reset by daylight times and seasons. My energy is better when I stick to the 12/12, record meals and get out and walk, all 3 tools have worked, BUT then there is the rest of life, meaning all the other health issues that pop up. I was diagnosed with SLL in 2010 and have been very fortunate to still be on W&W. My nodes wax and wane but my numbers are still stable. I have lots of small fires brewing all the time, but I always feel that keeping the diet side control has to be helping my heart, brain and overall health. So, I guess my advice is, IF is just another tool to help support and maintain one’s weight as long as it is not used for extreme weight loss. My rule of thumb has always been for me to add a tool it has to be easy enough to become part of my new routine. The 12/12 works for me because I can repeat it’s use. Sure, you can drop more weight by a more extreme fasting window, but can you maintain that loss? I say listen to your body, make sure a doctor signs off on any program you use (My Cardio has)and once you find your sweet spot using it try and repeat that. And that is a job in itself, lol.
Thank you, TXkate. Wish you the best with the many challenges. For me, this IF issue isn't for weight loss but for senolyric (anti-aging) effect which hopefully will have a positive impact on my CLL (if not other things). I had previously found myself naturally doing a 12/12. But now pushing it to 9/15, not as easy. I am considered thin although I have some weight around stomach I would love to see disappear!
If this statement was based on animal studies, I say, animals in a cage have no way of knowing if/when food is coming. We humans know intellectually if our fasting is deliberate or not, and IMO moderate periods of deliberately not eating probably don't result in much cortisol production. Worrying about anything food related, however, probably does. So it's not so much, if you only eat 8 versus 10 versus 12 hours of the day (although there can be differences in what ones' particular genetics likes) as if you are stressing out about it.
Was this a medical reference article, or just someone writing something somewhere? How are they defining "intermittent fasting"? If it's enough to make you "feel hungry" for hours and hours and interrupt sleep, sure it's stressful and one can produce cortisol. If it's trying to train your body away from unhealthy constant snacking on junk, and you are only uncomfortable because you are trying to break a pattern of constant/overeating, overall it's probably a healthier option.
Nobody should feel hungry while intermittent fasting. I can go 16,18, 24 hours without being hungry from time to time. That is the difference between intermittent fasting and multi-day water fasting on occasion. The whole concept of intermittent fasting is very simple. Only eat when you are hungry. Not because the clock says it's time to eat. Not because it's breakfast time and we all know that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. Which it is not, of course. Intermittent fasting is much easier to do on a low carb diet. It is very difficult to do on a high carb diet suffering from blood sugar swings, highs and crashes all the time. My advice to anyone who would just want now to start intermittent fasting is this: give up all processed foods first. Once you get used to this start reducing your carb intake to less than 100 g a day. Once you get used to that, start pushing the time of your breakfast out as much as you comfortably can without being too hungry. Once you get to 10:00 a.m. or later you're good to go. As long as you don't eat later than 20 p.m. which nobody going to bed at 22 to 23 PM should. This is not so much for you Sofia, but all the others reading this thread. I believe you are way past the need for such advice knowledgewise 🙂.
I agree with Leo, that’s the way I started about 2 .5 years ago. Cut the sugar and empty carbs first. Then start a 12/12 hour regular fasting schedule, that should not be that difficult to do for anyone to do. Then as you realize it’s not that difficult, you can start stretching the fasting windows one or two hours at a time until you reach your goal. My comfort window is 16-18 hours of fasting daily. And once or twice a month do 24 hour or OMAD (one-meal-a-day). Specially if I party or have a heavy meal. In terms of results, I lost about 20 pounds, and my CLL blood test are under control. However, I can’t say it’s due to my intermittent fasting alone since I also implemented other strategies, such as low carbs intake, no sugar, take multiple supplements, and almost completely eliminated alcohol from my life, occasionally have a glass or two of red wine in a social setting… I feel calmer, sleep better and have a good general mood…
Good advice re reducing carbs. I confess I do get hungry -- in particular in the evenings (after 7pm which is my new quit time), less so for some reason in the morning.
Carbohydrates make you feel hungry. Protein makes you feel satiated. If you feel hungry later than 7:00 p.m. just have a piece of meat. A small one. Chase the hunger away. This should not be considered a meal. Just eat enough meat to make the hunger go away.
Thank you, Leo -- I tend not to eat meat daily so don't have it around for a bite -- BUT, one night I had a boiled egg as last food because I didn't feel I'd had much protein. Think I might try repeating that or something similar.
Guess what, I don't eat dairy at all 😁. I'm sure that eating way too much dairy caused my prostate problems. I used to eat gouda and similar cheeses like others eat bread. Not anymore. A teaspoon of homemade sour cream full of probiotic bacteria is all I have daily. I have no proof but I read that the type of protein that can be found in dairy, produced by the Western type of cows is anything but healthy. The maasai in Africa that live almost exclusively on cow blood and dairy have different cows producing different types of proteins. C1 versus C2 but I don't remember exactly which one has which one. So my conviction is that eating dairy promotes growth in the wrong way. And I want none of that. Since I stopped eating dairy my prostate size stabilized. I stick to fatty meat and eggs for the majority of my daily caloric intake. I also eat trace amounts of walnuts, oat flakes, rice,bulgur, potato, sweet potato, buckwheat and all kinds of vegetables. And that's about it.
Sound advice. I haven't eaten processed foods since I don't know when. But I do have a sweet tooth which sometimes can be very loud! I try to limit and do pretty well as long as friends or relatives haven't brought over a new stack of brownies or cookies, etc. I never buy them myself (well, except for mint chocolate thin wafers) because I would just sit down and eat them all up (not quite but almost).
Haha, I'm not knowingly stressing about it. Just found it curious that fitbit measurement showed heightened stress. I'm not by nature a cool person but I'm pretty chill about this otherwise. Language was cut and paste from a medical article I found -- I cut and pasted the relevant language because, I confess, when I get websites links, I often don't look them up. The article was addressing more fasting as in 5-2, but it did not distinguish between that and 8/16, etc. And it made sense as well. Body newly adjusting to longer period without food. Not aware of being stressed (beyond what's normal).
Do you mean 5-2 fasting as in 5 days of eating, and 2 days of fasting? IMO the problem with prolonged multiday fasting on a regular basis is, being in a negative nitrogen balance for sustained periods of time means your body will start destroying various muscle tissues (including heart muscle). So intermittent prolonged, may not be harmful, but near constant is. That's why bulimics can die from cardiac conditions, they eventually compromise their heart tissue (on top of electrolyte imbalances from throwing up). But daily shorter periods seem to allow the GI tract to rest/repair, especially overnight. Considering our bodies generally "repair" while we sleep, I think allowing most of the meal before sleep to get digested, is possibly better than waiting hours after awakening to eat. So some combo of "extended time after last meal" as opposed to trying to make a longer time period just for the sake of a longer fasting period. If the "one meal a day" is late in the day, I am not sure it is in our best interest physiologically. But that's just a guess, who knows what actually is optimal, we can't experiment on humans.
Enjoyed reading this thread as it really speaks to how complicated it is balancing all health condition’s especially when you have CLL or SLL. That’s why I think it is never good to do any extreme changes to diet or exercise without your doctor signing off. My Cardiologist and my Oncologist know my plan, especially because I did have some weigh loss, and they needed to know it was intentional and not a result of SLL activity. Good luck to you and keep your doctors in the loop.
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Ibrutinib - Side effects
Fasting and Ibrutinib 
Rhesus Negative blood 
Negative for CLL and lymphoma panel
MRD Negative - no sweeter words!
