AZ clots and platelets

[Ptcad]

Morning. First off I’m very happy to have received the AZ Covid vaccine but I wondered if people have come across greater clarification of the tiny number (proportionately) of brain blood clotting (CVST) cases . The BBC website says the clots “were accompanied by low levels of platelets” without saying whether this was a cause or effect. So as CLL patients are we at a marginally higher risk ? PS I’m still going to get my second AZ jab as I realise the risks if any are absolutely minute.

[Eucalyptus22]

I was just going to ask the same question after just hearing this on the news. I had the first dose and due to get the 2nd in the next 2 weeks. The question about clots and platelets is making me anxious as my platelets are just OK. Anyway, this will be a question for my consultant on Tuesday when I get the results of my monthly bloods. I'll share his views on this forum. I'm beginning to wonder if we are more susceptible to blood clots with these vaccines than the general population. That has to be balanced with potentially not producing enough antibodies to protect ourselves. All beginning to feel like a game of Russian roulette and the problem is we just don't have enough information to make an informed decision.

[Hidden in reply to Eucalyptus22]

Good day I think people need to start following their gut instinct.

[Poodle2]

I think you have to weigh the risks and benefits.

If you are a healthy man in your 50s, your chance of dying of Covid is 1:500.

Your chance to be hit by a car a die as a result of that is about 1:750.

If the rare blood clots are related to the vaccine and you take the number of people vaccinated in the UK and the number of deaths due to the rare blood clots (that might not be related to the vaccine at all), the risk of dying is 1: 2 500 000.

P.S. The contraception pill has a risk of blood clotting events too and millions of women take them and they do not think about the risks at all, do their partners worry about them taking it and the risks that come with it? I have never heard it discussed on the news...it's just the perspective you want to take, a lot of this is purely political in my opinion.

[G1llHa1n]

FYI The latest figures in UK say the statisticians today (3rd April) reckoned on 7 deaths which may or may not be related to the over 18 million AZ vaccinations given so far. The blood clotting problems do arise anyway for a range of reasons at any time.

[Senecio]

I read an article in the last week (sorry don't remember where - probably on the BBC or Guardian uk) which said that what *might* be happening, is that in the very small number of cases, the immune system stimulated by the vaccine is mistakenly attacking platelets, and the body is detecting the drop in platelet numbers and then over producing them. I doubt this is of much relevance to people with CLL, as our immune systems are only half aware of what's going on anyway, so unlikely to be producing antibodies against our own platelets. That's more auto-immune disease territory. In any case, to put things into perspective, you're a lot more likely to be killed in a car accident driving to the vaccination site than you are to be killed by the vaccine. (Also probably more likely to be arrested for impersonating a police officer on the way!).John

[Biker7 in reply to Senecio]

Hi Senecio,

I believe the article is relevant to CLLers who have had instances of ITP (Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura) as a complication of CLL. ITP, the condition where the body attacks its own platelets, does happen to some CLLers. It would be good to know whether any of the clotting cases following vaccination had a previous history of ITP.

[Senecio in reply to Biker7]

I'm fairly sure that nobody (yet) can answer that question. It is still uncertain whether there is ANY causal relationship between the AZ vaccine and the observed brain thromboses. I have also seen another completely different speculation (assuming there might be a link) about the possible cause: i.e. that the people affected actually already had Covid-19 when they were vaccinated. This has some credibility in that it seems to be a problem only in people under the age of 55, who are probably more likely to have no symptoms or to have a very mild infection. It is well established that Covid-19 causes micro thrombotic events in people with a more severe infection, and maybe having the vaccine on top of a pre-existing sub-clinical infection was enough to push the immune reaction 'over the top'. All of this is speculation.With regard to ITP, I myself have thrombocytopenia. I had always assumed that this was a result of the CLL infection (which means it's not 'idiopathic' because it has a known cause) I like to tell myself that this is a good thing, because I might be less likely to suffer a coronary thrombosis! Oddly, when I broke my hip in 2019, the blood test taken immediately after the operation showed my platelet numbers had recovered to normal levels. It has gone back down now, though.

John

[Ptcad]

Thanks to all who have responded to this - it’s an interesting topic if nothing else! Given how complicated human blood clot pathway is - and also that Covid itself affects it - there’s clearly a lot still to bottom out here. Separately I’ve registered for Phase 2 of UK Biobank's coronavirus self-test antibody study so I’ll be interested if my single dose of vaccine so far shows any activity!