VITAMIN K2 & CLL: Vitamin K2 and CLL. Anyone... - CLL Support

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VITAMIN K2 & CLL

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Vitamin K2 and CLL.

Anyone got an opinion on Vitamin K2 for CLL treatment? Digging around the web i found this. Ordered some on Amazon

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

49 Replies
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AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator

The effect of vitamin K2 on leukaemias in the article you referenced is nearly all in regard to acute myeloid leukaemias. The myeloid stem cell line is responsible for all the white blood cells OTHER than lymphocytes. Lymphocytes (and hence CLL) derive from the lymphoid stem cell line. There is no mention of the effect of K2 on CLL cells, with the closest mention being to multiple myeloma cells, which are a later stage B-lymphocyte blood cancer than CLL, (i.e. a plasma cell blood cancer). Interestingly, CLL treatments don't affect plasma cells, as the cellular pathways differ, so it could be that conversely, vitamin K2 may not affect CLL. I would be looking for more research specific to CLL before getting too enthusiastic.

Neil

I just started taking k2 vitamins today.

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Sushibruno

Good move. In combination with calcium and vitamin D it will promote bone health and prevent calcium buildup outside of bones, where it does not belong. Like in arteries.

Sushibruno
Sushibruno in reply to LeoPa

Not taking calcium just d3 is that ok?🤔

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Sushibruno

You get calcium from foods like cheese, sardines with bones and green leafy vegetables.

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Sushibruno

And sesame seeds, if you like them.

Sushibruno
Sushibruno in reply to LeoPa

Thank you Leo 🙂

MsLockYourPosts
MsLockYourPostsVolunteer in reply to Sushibruno

Sushibruno - Please talk with your doctor before taking Vitamin K2! It can be very dangerous for some people. I, for example, am on a blood thinner. K2 is used to reverse it if my blood is too thin. Definitely not something I want to mess with!

Check out possible side effects and drug interactions! There are some significant ones!

Thank you will do.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to AussieNeil

Great thanks, sounds like it could be probably helpful... I also have turned up Shark Liver Oil for Leukemia, but I cant find any study which relates to CLL. Something else probably helpful?

AussieNeil
AussieNeilAdministrator in reply to Hidden

I've never heard of shark liver oil for CLL. Sharks were once thought to not develop cancers, so I wonder if that's behind the association? Turns out that sharks do get cancer :( .

Neil

Hidden
Hidden in reply to AussieNeil

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Can't find much research, but it does appear high in vitamin K2

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Hidden

Gouda cheese and natto for MK7 and foie gras for MK4 are the natural choices. No need for exotic stuff like shark liver. 😁

bennevisplace
bennevisplace in reply to LeoPa

Foie gras a natural choice? Not when it's produced by gavage👎

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to bennevisplace

It's a traditional food in many places. Though I get it might seem gross to some. But tasty as hell. Try natto if you like nasty stuff 😂

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to bennevisplace

I remember how we stuffed geese in my grandma's yard in the early seventies with corn. I suppose geese can't throw up because they never did. They became nice and fat and tasty, especially their livers. Nowadays lots of people suffer from non alcoholic fatty liver disease because they consume too much of the most widespread sweetener, HFCS. That's the stuff that made the goose liver fat, except now we don't have to ramp the corn down our necks as we can have it in a concentrated form, and enjoy it too! We are the geese now. And voluntary ones at that. Just to figure diabetologists recommended fructose as a sweetener to diabetics because it does not elevate blood sugar levels makes me shudder. So much about following blindly any advice without doing one's own homework. Pls don't follow mine. Do your own.

bennevisplace
bennevisplace in reply to LeoPa

Yes, many modern diseases start with excess sugar. Year-round availability of fruit with high fructose content means too much of a good thing for many of us. A ripe banana is more sugary than Coca-Cola. nofructose.com/food-ideas/f... The video at 16 mins bears out what you wrote about the effect on the liver, and more.

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to bennevisplace

Wow I didn't know that. But there's a difference. Coke is liquid, doesn't contain fiber to slow absorption, has none of the nutrients banana has. There are different varieties, some sweetened with REAL SUGAR, which is of course 45% fructose, some with artificial sweeteners. I'd be hard pressed to pick which one is worse. And of course the recipe is a secret. Now just to think I'd drink something I have no way of knowing what it is... Yes, I did drink coke during my less enlightened years. Not anymore. Sorry Mr. Buffett. It's seldom that I eat a banana or any fruit for that matter though. After a fasted training with some protein (and next no fat) to kick start anabolism, it's acceptable for me. As a treat whenever I feel like having one it's not.

bennevisplace
bennevisplace in reply to LeoPa

Incidentally, where do you stand on alternative sweeteners, xylitol et al?

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to bennevisplace

I use only stevia and erythritol, in limited quantities. There are some not too cheap high quality chocolates with high cacao content sweetened with a combination of these that are sinfully tasty. I may have some once in a blue moon 😋

Never suggested by my hematologists.

Hi, I take K2 and D3 daily, as suggested by my Dermatologist, aligned with periodic treatment of sun damage to my head (Solar Keratosis). His view is that the supplements are probably helpful, in my circumstances, the medical case is "probably" rather than certain.

best wishes,

Michael

Jm954
Jm954Administrator

I'm sorry but I am not impressed with the evidence in this paper. VItK2 has a unique relationship with the liver and most of the discussion is around hepatocellular cancer with no mention of CLL at all.

I think you should look for more direct evidence with CLL before taking VitK2. How do you know how much to take, can you be sure that what you're buying is what it says (this area is not well regulated). Finally, remember that too much could potentially lead to thrombosis which is a game changer and can drastically affect your wellness.

Jackie

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Jm954

120 mcg /day MK7 is safe. That's about what a reasonable amount of gouda contains. It thickens the blood, so those who take blood thinners consult your doctor first.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

It got me thinking. If it thickens the blood, does it help to elevate platelet numbers? Maybe I need to up my intake. They've been on the lowish side for as long as I remember.

Jm954
Jm954Administrator in reply to LeoPa

It will have no effect on your platelets, that is not the mechanism of action. It would be foolish to want to 'thicken" your blood, a thrombosis can lead to life changing consequences.

K2 is present in sufficient quantities in the usual foodstuffs of a balanced diet and any supplements should be discussed with your doctor.

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Jm954

I think that you're wrong about K2 being present in the usual stuff on a balanced diet. It's one vitamin that's very difficult to get from food. And the body does not readily convert enough K1 to K2. Unless one purposefully eats foods that contain it he's likely deficient. People don't get calcification of arteries and joints when they have enough of the vitamin D, calcium and K2 combo. D and calcium everybody talks about. K2? Most never heard about it. And my experience says that doctors know very little about nutrition. Certainly much less than I do.

Jm954
Jm954Administrator in reply to LeoPa

We will have to disagree then, from what I have seen it's plentiful in a balanced diet and supplementation is not necessary.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to Jm954

Lol are you a disagreeable person by nature Jackie, or just on this forum as an admin? A lot of scared people with CLL are looking for anything and everything to try to help. I think that's a positive thing. Jon

mrsjsmith
mrsjsmith in reply to Hidden

I think you should retract that comment because it’s insulting and incorrect. Assuming you are still around ?

DebKat999
DebKat999 in reply to Hidden

Aside from being completely untrue, this is needlessly rude, petty, and childish in my opinion. Apparently Jon has now left this group? I guess that is in his nature.

Debbie

MsLockYourPosts
MsLockYourPostsVolunteer in reply to Hidden

Jon (aka Hidden) - " A lot of scared people with CLL are looking for anything and everything to try to help." Sadly, a lot of those people will try anything and everything to try to help - proven or not / safe or not. There are charletons everywhere happy to take their money with no regard for the patients they are potentially harming, either because of whatever they are pushing, or because patients avoid potentially helpful treatments and self treat with something that will have no effect.

We now have to navigate through a sea of self proclaimed experts pushing all manner of supplements, diets, and other approaches to healing on social media. People post one person testimonials and suddenly someone in the group is stocking up on whatever is being pushed on Amazon, at the market, at the drug store, or where ever. Very scary to see that when it happens.

MsLockYourPosts
MsLockYourPostsVolunteer in reply to LeoPa

Are you medically trained sufficiently to make a blanket statement about the safe dose of a supplement, especially considering the wide range of medical issues members here deal with?

You must have misunderstood me. I'm not recommending anything to anyone. The 120 mcg I quoted as safe is from publicly available sources that would sure fit your expectation of medically trained and then some. I would expect nobody to follow my or anyone else's opinion blindly and consider them only a starting point for investigation and using their own head to make decisions. We are here to learn from each other. You might know things I don't and vice versa. That doesn't mean I'm going to take your opinion for a fact and jump into anything you suggest before doing my homework. That's the way people learn. Those who are dead set in their views and opinions and not willing to change them can't be helped. And those who expect the truth to be spoon fed to them by others, including medically trained people face more disillusion than those who prefer to do their own thinking. Should I put a disclaimer to every post? "Pls don't take my word for it and verify what I wrote" Glad you brought this up so we could sort it out.

MsLockYourPosts
MsLockYourPostsVolunteer in reply to LeoPa

"120 mcg/day MK7 is safe." is not an opinion, it is a statement of fact, one that none of us is qualified to make. "According to......." and a link would be an opinion based on a source, leaving the reader to evaluate the source. It might or might not fit my expectation of medically trained. Your link takes one to an abstract titled Menaquinone Content of Cheese. I would definitely not base any decision about supplementing Vitamin K on this study! I have no idea what other "publically available sources" you are referring to, as there are no links for them, so I would not be able to evaluate them. I do know that my cardiology specialist advised me to avoid any and all Vitamin K supplements when they were the "in" thing several years ago and I asked about them. I will trust him for my medically trained opinion regarding this question.

OK, here's the link due to public request.

ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/V...

westonaprice.org/health-top...

This guy knows way more about nutrition than any doctor no matter his specialty. Judge for yourself:

kresserinstitute.com/vitami...

And this one too:

marksdailyapple.com/what-ar...

And I will make another statement. Cardio vascular disease is the result of decade long wrong nutrition and supplementation. I don't have a cardiologist. Never saw one. Why do you think that is so? Many of my classmates are on BP pills. Have I not changed my ways 8 years ago I'd have gone down the same route. That's when my GP wanted to put me on statins. Which I refused and got serious about delving into nutritional science.

You're welcome.

MsLockYourPosts
MsLockYourPostsVolunteer in reply to LeoPa

First link - This is the only one of your listed "publically available sources" that I would consider as fitting my expectations regarding medically trained.

healthunlocked.com/api/redi...

This is a general discussion about Vitamin K. There is good information in this paper about Vitamin K in general, and how dietary needs are measured and can be met. The conclusion of the paper is that, as stated in the federal (US) government's 2015 - 2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, "Nutritional needs should be met primarily from foods". There is no discussion of appropriate supplemental doses of Vitamin K.

Next we have a paper from westonprice.org. Weston Price was a Canadian dentist known primarily for his theories on the relationship between nutrition, dental health, and physical health. He died in 1948. The Weston Price Foundation, co-founded in 1999 by Sally Fallon (Morrell) and nutritionist Mary G. Enid, is a 501 (c) (3) non profit organization dedicated to "restoring nutrient-dense foods to the American Diet through education, research, and activism". (Wikipedia) Their focus is not the use of supplements.

Then we have a link to information regarding Vitamin K from the Kreisler Institute's site. They state " Conventional medicine doesn't stand a chance of turning the tide against chronic disease." and, among other things, recruit people for their "Health Coach Certification" program.

Last we have a link to "Mark's Daily Apple" written by Mark Sisson - described as the blog that built awareness and authority for Mark Sisson and the Paleo/ Primal lifestyle. His Primal Blueprint site states "Find the right supplement for you. 30 day guarantee." Books, supplements, weight loss and more. Not where I would look for objective, well researched information about any vitamin supplement.

Your statement about cardiovascular disease is self serving and not appropriate. Many don't need a cardiologist during their lifetime, but many of us do. My cardiac issue, and those of many friends, has nothing to do with diet, exercise, or blood pressure.

You're welcome!

If that's what you take away from those sources, that's completely OK. Others are expected to use their own heads too and come to their own conclusions. My statement about CV disease was not self serving. I pointed out that I was able to reverse mine. And not by medical intervention. What anybody takes away from the information presented is completely up to them. Good luck.

Newdawn
NewdawnAdministrator in reply to LeoPa

So you’d dismiss the recognised cardio-toxicity risks (including new or increased hypertension) from Ibrutinib as being the result of ‘decade long wrong nutrition and supplementation.’

Sadly, those of us who have CLL which has reached treatment stage rely on drugs which have proven efficacy in treating the blood cancer but can lead to unwanted cardiovascular issues regardless of diet, fitness or vitamin supplementation. Your comments suggest total self blame and that’s pretty unfair and unbalanced for this particular audience.

Newdawn

LeoPa
LeoPa in reply to Newdawn

Of course I would not. I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing this out. Cancer patients with drug induced heart problems are different from the general populace who build their heart disease through the years via incorrect nutrition. Some problems can't be avoided but others can. As far as preventing chronic diseases go the medical establishment failed big time. One has to look no further than the general state of the population's health.

I updated my profile to reflect what I wrote above. Thanks for inspiring me to do so :-)

bennevisplace
bennevisplace in reply to Jm954

Before starting on FLAIR, patients are or should be asked for a list of regular meds and supplements. Mine, including K2 and D3, were OK'd by my haematologist.

I wonder how many people with a potentially serious health condition do check with their specialist before loading up on a vitamin or supplement. As you've flagged, they can sometimes be harmful.

Jm954
Jm954Administrator in reply to bennevisplace

I’m on FLAIR and I’m asked about any supplements each time by the research nurse. Not sure if that’s usual practice.

bennevisplace
bennevisplace in reply to Jm954

I'm not sure either, I'll ask my haematologist at my next appointment in 2 weeks time.

bennevisplace
bennevisplace in reply to Jm954

I asked the FLAIR study nurse today. At every review they should be asking about any changes to prescribed medicines but not vitamins and supplements. To me that's a hole in the system.

Jm954
Jm954Administrator in reply to bennevisplace

definitely, I agree

Hi Starchie, it is easy to get carried away, but better err on the side of caution.

Too much of a good thing is Not necessarily a good thing....

Ideally, we should get all our vitamins/minerals from the food we eat; with the exception of Vit D (which strictly speaking is not actually a 'vitamin', but a hormone).

You get plenty of K2 from cooked Kale and broccoli, or raw spinach.

Raw spinach has actually a mild taste, and can easily be incorporated into fresh salad or just about any cooked dish.

pigeon

Tender spinach does go well in a salad. Winter/ spring greens are nice wok-fried with root ginger, the stalks eaten raw and crunchy.

Hidden
Hidden

Great thanks! Do you think that its all due to diet? West Africa and India have vastly lower rates of CLL? Are they eating less dairy and more greens, probably less alcohol.

mrsjsmith
mrsjsmith in reply to Hidden

Goodness what can I say about this statement ! Hmmm.... let’s all move

Colette

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