Turkey Tail Mushrooms for Cancer Treatment

[TaiPan4]

I understand that Turkey Tail Mushrooms are a recognized cancer treatment in China and Japan. Does anyone have experience with this treatment for CLL/SLL? If so, are there any known interactions with ibrutinib?

[AussieNeil Administrator]

There is evidence that Turkey Tail Mushrooms can actually accelerate your CLL!

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

Neil

[TaiPan4 in reply to AussieNeil]

Thank you.

[Gman2 in reply to AussieNeil]

AussieNeil, we are all very grateful that you share your wealth of knowledge. It is truly very helpful and a blessing. How do we help our immune system? I know about green tea and turmeric and really don't think it will kill our cll but I'm sure everyone hopes that it has a positive impact on our disorder. It is so hard not to do anything to help ourselves. Does anyone believe the theory about alkaline vs acidic? Does it have anyplace in treatment for cll? Is there anything we can do to help ourselves? Thanks, Gerry

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to Gman2]

How we can help our immune system is covered here healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo......

and more specifically here healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

This post also covers how we can boost our immune system with IgG and G-CSF injections

healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

The idea that you can change your blood pH by eating more alkaline foods is nonsense. Blood pH (acid/alkali balance) is tightly regulated within a very narrow pH range and your body adjusts the pH by making changes in your urine, breath (carbon dioxide) and sweat as you eat more acid or alkaline food. You'd feel very ill if your blood pH was outside that narrow range.

sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpr...

Neil

[Pogee in reply to AussieNeil]

From what I'm reading, the acceleration is the result of the beta glucans in it being a potent inducer of the liver enzyme CYP3A4. Therefore, anyone taking any particular mushrooms or other things, such as curcumin or black pepper, should ask their doctor if it might might be advisable to lower their medication dosage, because of the synergistic effect! I'll be putting something online in this forum about this shortly.

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to Pogee]

The challenge with the approach you are suggesting, is that you don't know the strength of the impact on CYP3A4, which naturally varies with seasonal variations in the mushrooms, curcumin, black pepper, etc, the processing, degree of freshness and so on. This is a fundamental difference between prescription medication and supplements, the degree of control of the active ingredient. This is exactly why the use of supplements and herbal remedies is not encouraged when you are on a clinical trial.

It is very important that you maintain inhibition of CLL cells from your treatment drug, because CLL cells not inhibited from multiplying can give rise to sub-clones with resistance to the treatment and if they aren't inhibited, then you aren't maintaining control of your CLL. Is it possible to reduce the consumption of substances that are known to influence the effect of CYP3A4?

Neil

[Pogee in reply to AussieNeil]

Any substances I would consume would come from researched reputable sources in known quantities (hopefully!). Would there be variability from one bottle to another? Quite possibly. But, hopefully, with reputable companies that variability would be minimized. As for reducing the consumption of substances that are known to influence the effect of CYP3A4, I've already done that by, at least temporarily, ceasing ingestions of all of my many vitamins and supplements. I'm also drinking a far greater quantity of water. So far, in just a single day—with the help of 10mg Valium last night—I'm feeling wonderful!

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to Pogee]

Good to hear you are so much better. Perhaps it was the supplements that were behind your side effects. As to minimising variability, you will find it eye opening to check lab reports from independent testers. You can only do so much to reduce product variability, unless you process the supplement to extract the active ingredient. Then you end up with a medicine.

Neil

[Pogee in reply to AussieNeil]

...then you end up with a medicine, he wryly notes. Point well taken! I've stopped ALL my vitamins and supplements, and, along with two nights of good sleep, thanks to 10mg of Valium, lots of water, protein-rich foods, and fresh fruit, I think I may be onto something! May all of you feel as well as I've been feeling since yesterday! By the way—the most important questions of the day!—how would I access emojis on this site?

[caven]

Many cancers ~~ but not blood cancers, particularly CLL ~~ benefit from boosting the B-cells with an energizing jolt to the immune system. Strengthening the blood's capacity to proliferate, in the case of most solid tumors, encourages the transfer of cancer-fighting properties to the malignancy.

However, when the blood contains cloned, malformed B-cells the last thing one wants to do is to accelerate their progress one step closer towards overwhelming disease.

It's ironic, I know. It does seem that it should improve one's health to deliver a strengthening agent to one's blood ~~ but, when one's blood is compromised by CLL it serves no useful purpose to supercharge the very cells that are slowly but inexorably attempting to displace the healthy components in the blood .

Turkey Tail Mushroom Extract and similar supplements promise to boost immunity in ways that selectively serve to grow the very cells that cause CLL.

CLL-ers should be wary whenever the natural ingredient of a concoction purport to 'boost immunity.' In most cases that means the product aims to boost B-Lymphocytes and hence CLL cells.

It would be a rare naturopathic practitioner who would know this relationship to CLL. That is why NP's, homeopaths, ayurvedic practitioners and others who espouse avoidance of chemical-based treatments for CLL in favor of 'natural' herbs, potions, and compounds are unknowingly feeding the very cells that compromise the health of CLL-people.

'Natural supplements' should be avoided until one has confidence that there's no inadvertent negative outcome . . .

Caven

[TaiPan4 in reply to caven]

Thanks for your detailed response. This is very helpful.

[Hidden]

My local Chinese practitioner says Turkey Tail is not good for CLL. Reischi mushrooms and Moringa leaves are good.

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to Hidden]

A specific search for Reishi and Moringa with B lymphocytes turned up yet another reference pointing out that Turkey Tail mushrooms boost B lymphocyte production (and hence should be avoided when we have CLL).

I couldn't find any reputable mention of Reishi mushrooms and B-lymphocytes, but there is evidence that it may boost T-Lymphocytes, so might help our immune system without boosting CLL.

With Moringa leaves, the only reportable blood cancer study I found was with Acute Myeloid Leukaemia. CLL derives from the lymphoid stem cell line, not the myeloid stem cell line, so I would suggest that this recommendation may come from the error that caven notes, and which I also see frequently. "NP's, homeopaths, ayurvedic practitioners and others who espouse avoidance of chemical-based treatments for CLL in favor of 'natural' herbs, potions, and compounds are unknowingly feeding the very cells that compromise the health of CLL-people.", because it seems that often they don't appreciate the wide range of blood cancers and the specificity of apoptotic triggers. What works for AML is unlikely to work for CLL and vice versa. From my research, the relevant cellular pathways you want to encourage or inhibit to kill CLL often don't exist when present in blood cancer cells in the myeloid cell line, while stimulation pathways nearly always do exist for immune boosting supplements.

We need to keep in mind that CLL is relatively rare, particularly in Asia. It's recognised in both the USA and Europe as an orphan disease. You would want your Chinese practitioner to spend some time updating their research with specific reference to B-lymphocytes and CLL, before accepting their advice.

Neil

[caven]

PacificCLL: I believe that your local Chinese practitioner is likely mistaken. H/she believes that this 'King of Mushrooms' is helpful because Reishi mushrooms are high in beta-glucans that are known to help support immune function in the regular population ~ but this effect may NOT be in the interest of good health for CLL-people (more fully explained above).

There are risks from ingesting Reishi for people who have immune system disorders or are taking medicines to regulate blood pressure or clotting (webmd.com/vitamins-and-supp.... Reishi mushroom can also increase the probability of bleeding in people who have a very low platelet count.

Moringa Oleifera leaves do not purport to work along the same pathway as Reishi mushrooms; they are, however, a good source of fiber and plant-based iron so long as one is able to eat them fresh as opposed to the dried compounds on sale, online. The fresh leaves of Moringa Oleifera are almost as good for you as spinach (but not quite as easy to chew and are really bitter). Moringa leaves are of course many, many times more expensive than Popeye's favourite vegetable.

Again, I respectfully advise caution about ingesting supplements, including 'wholly natural, organic, and exotic' compounds even when they are recommended by your local Chinese practitioner.

春节快乐 (Chūnjié kuàilè); Happy New Year

Caven

[Hidden in reply to caven]

Thank you, I have fresh moringa here to make tea. I appreciate all the research.

[tom9676]

Here is a study

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to tom9676]

Here is your post of your above reply and the associated discussion. healthunlocked.com/cllsuppo...

Per the paper you referenced, alemtuzumab, rituximab, and PGG beta glucan was found to be an effective CLL treatment in a small phase II trial on 20 CLL patients conducted by Mayo Clinic and the University of Iowa. The paper pointed out that Beta Glucan was found to encourage the growth of CLL in 0.3% of CLL patients. I would expect that susceptibility could vary considerably from the 1 in 300 risk with different patient groups around the world.

Neil