Is this relevant for CLL folk? Am having to check blood pressure. Went to stay with family who have water softener. Pressure went to 205/118

[trevtherev]

on return home, down to 133/88. Coincidence or some connection with the salt based process?

[Cllcanada Top Poster CURE Hero]

Might be, you shouldn't be drinking or cooking with saline softened water...

Could be stress perhaps.

[MsLockYourPosts Passed Volunteer in reply to Cllcanada]

My relatives who had softened water had a separate faucet for water for cooking in the kitchen and only drank bottled water. As a small child I was very impressed with the fact that we couldn't/shouldn't drink tap water when visiting, as the water where we lived was so good. I somehow had it in my head that it was some kind of poisonous. You might want to suggest that your family ask about the safety of drinking softened water.

[trevtherev in reply to MsLockYourPosts]

Thanks for the response.My family do have a separate tap for drinking water which has an additional filter, but they seem to use the other taps for cooking with. At home I only use boiled or bottled water for drinking.

[trevtherev in reply to Cllcanada]

Thanks. Didn't feel stressed, but it could be subconscious! Will take some bottled water next time, but even that can have a high sodium content!

[AussieNeil Administrator]

Good on you for looking after your body, given the well known cardiovascular risks associated with high blood pressure. I'm impressed that you thought of the water softener - generally out of sight and out of mind.

However, I would be most surprised if that blood pressure increase was due solely to the sodium in the drinking water. Perhaps you were eating more salt in your food (different cook or eating out more) or the stress of living away from home was the cause?

I live where we have a world wide reputation for having very hard water with a reasonably high salt content (particularly in periods of drought). Some towns in my state rely on bore water that exceeds World Health Organisation limits for drinking due to the high salt content. We recently had a 10 year drought that required extensive work to maintain access to drinking water and this resulted in a government supplied 'Water Quality Fact Sheet on the Health implications of increased salinity of drinking water' which contains the following pertinent advice:

"A substantial increase in Total Dissolved Solids could result in drinking water developing a slightly saltier taste but should not pose a significant health risk to the general population. There could be impacts for those who need to limit their daily salt intake (e.g. severely hypertensive (severe high blood pressure - Neil), diabetic and renal dialysis patients) and in these cases advice should be sought from a doctor."

The water softener works by exchanging positive metallic ions (calcium and magnesium) which cause water hardness, with sodium ions. Basically you end up with more palatable water that takes much less soap/detergent to create a lather. You also get less scale build up in hot water heaters and kettles, but of course the water now has a higher sodium content.

To put it into perspective, this is the salt content of water from various sources here:

• rainwater usually <100 mg/L

• metropolitan tap supplies 250-400 mg/L

• bores often >1000 mg/L

So to take the case of drinking softened water in a town which is supplied from bore water with 1000mg/litre (or a gram per litre) and assuming you consume three litres of water a day in drinking and cooking, then you are adding the equivalent of an extra half a teaspoon of salt into your diet daily (based on 1 teaspoon of cooking salt weighing about 5.7 grams). That's only slightly more than the recommended daily intake of sodium of 2.3 grams, but we typically ingest much more than that from processed foods - even before we add extra salt to flavour our food (if we do). Don't forget that there would be a reasonable amount of sodium in your regular un-softened drinking water at home.

I've just checked the sodium content of a 175 gram packet of chips - 0.84 grams. Salt and Vinegar is worse at 1.4 grams. Even one mince pie contains 0.15 grams! (I've eaten two today and that has contributed to over 10% of my daily sodium allowance - but I still enjoyed them. )

So unless you were staying in a town that had extremely salty drinking water, I'd be looking at other causes for your higher blood pressure. If sodium was the cause, I'd primarily be looking at the food you were eating with the water a secondary cause. Should you return there, you should be able to get your drinking water from a source before the water softener (a garden tap for example), to reduce your sodium intake.

Neil

[trevtherev in reply to AussieNeil]

Thanks, Neil for your detailed reply. Thanks for the tip about garden tap water and the thought that mains water will have some sodium content. I'll check with our water company!

I am reducing my stress levels as best I can, and further reducing salt intake where feasible.

I am planning a nice warm mince pie this afternoon!!

[AussieNeil Administrator in reply to trevtherev]

Hopefully your water company can tell you the typical percentages of sodium, magnesium and calcium. Bear in mind that the water softener will only be replacing calcium and magnesium with sodium, so the additional sodium from the water softening might only be the equivalent of what you'd get from eating one or two mince pies a day, depending on how 'hard' the water is.

Might be worth your while looking for low sodium foods, if you aren't already doing so, which here are often the same price as the standard item. Just watch out for the increased sugar which is often included to keep the taste acceptable.

The calcium/magnesium to sodium exchange process is rather nifty, typically using a zeolite, which is a truly amazing material. Here's the Wikipedia article on the process:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water...

I was interested to read: "According to the Mayo Clinic, "An 8-ounce (237-milliliter) glass of softened water generally contains less than 12.5 milligrams of sodium, which is well within the Food and Drug Administration's definition of 'very low sodium.' "Of course, the exact amount of sodium present in soft water will depend upon how much hardness is being removed by the softener (harder water=more sodium ions being exchanged for the hardness ions) as well as the levels of naturally occurring sodium that is present in many groundwater sources.

and

Potassium chloride can also be used as a regenerant instead of sodium chloride, although it is more costly."

So, according to the Mayo Clinic, if you consumed 3 litres of softened water, you'd be typically consuming an additional 3/0.237 *12.5 or 158 milligrams of sodium - which is about one mince pie's worth.

Neil

[Havemercy]

I have to say that you really need to get proper medical advice from your doctor re. your blood pressure. There are many causes of hypertension. I am a cardiac nurse, and I would certainly want any reading like that checked out by a medical professional - not to alarm you but your GP needs to look into the trend.

[trevtherev in reply to Havemercy]

Appreciate your reply. My GP has been keeping a watchful eye on this, hence my taking daily readings. I was in hospital recently with suspected angina but discharged to await tests such as 24hr ecg and 24hr blood pressure for which I am awaiting the results, and a stress echo test but not till end of February!

I see my GP next Monday to review other possible causes.

[AussieNeil Administrator]

Just noticed a reference in today's newspaper about some Dutch (Wageningen University) research on salt consumption. I know Australia is also grappling with this and I expect it is a common problem worldwide with processed foods.

wageningenur.nl/en/Dossiers...

Relevant quotes:

"Although most people know eating salt is bad for one's health, daily salt consumption is not dropping (Netherlands Heart Foundation, 2011). This is mainly due to how the Dutch ingest their salt: almost 80% is ingested through purchased foods, while only 20% is added in cooking or at the table. (My emphasis - Neil)

If people in the Netherlands would eat one gram less of salt per day, it would reduce the number of annual deaths from heart disease by approximately 150 to 350 and the number of annual deaths due to strokes by 200 to 400 (Netherlands Heart Foundation, 2011).

If the Dutch would eat no more than six grams of salt per day (three grams less than now on average), there would be some 2,500 people less passing away due to cardiovascular diseases (Netherlands Nutrition Centre)"

The Netherlands has a population of approximately 17 million.

From the National Academy of Sciences. Drinking water and health. Washington, DC, National Academy Press, 1977:400-411.

"In western Europe and North America, the estimated overall consumption of dietary sodium chloride is 5–20 g/day

(2–8 g of sodium per day), the average being 10 g/day (4 g of sodium). People on a low-sodium diet need to restrict their sodium intake to less than 2 g/day."

Good to hear from your response to Havemercy that you are working with your doctor to find out what is causing your elevated blood pressure. This could save your life or spare you from the crippling after effects of a stroke.

Neil

[MsLockYourPosts Passed Volunteer in reply to AussieNeil]

Neil - Interesting study. I used to be the type who salted my food before even tasting it. I have worked on using other things - lemon juice is a good one - for flavoring and have noticed that with almost all processed food the only thing I really taste is salt. I don't know how much of that has to do with the fact that my sense of taste in general has changed since treatment several years ago and how much has to do with the fact that I am just more aware of the salt now that I try to eat less, but I truly don't taste the food, just the salt - a good incentive to keep focusing on improving my diet.

[SAMBS]

As a now retired kitchen specialist - we used to sell and install water softeners [in uk] and always always told our clients not to drink softened water. Its great for the white goods i.e. w/m, t/dryer. dishwater and for running round internal pipes in the house - to stop limescale. Drinking water should be coming from the mains water tap, which is what the extra tap in the kitchen worktop by the sink, or through an extra separate aperture in the sink. will be supplied from as well as normal sink tap. Water to the kitchen sink in the UK will be from the mains - by all means use a filter jug filled from the mains.

All other cold water taps in other area of the house will have water that come from the cold water tank (usually up in the loft!) If you think about it many central heating systems also have a separate 'header tank' in the loft and the installers will usually put a separate special treatment into that, central heating systems are self contained and the water that runs around the system comes from the header tank and because its been treated will stop pipes and radiators from furring up also. Hope you don't mind all the technical stuff - but it puts thing into perspective I hope.

I'm not promoting my ex-industry - I had a B I last March and was diagnosed with MDS 2.5 years ago, both here in France. So have a vested interest in Headway.

[trevtherev]

Thanks for taking the time to reply and for the info. My blood pressure is still unstable, and am having further tests and investigations to ascertain the cause through my GP and the consultant at the Marsden.

One of the reasons or looking into water softeners was that the kettle furs up so quickly. If you need a mains water tap to fill the kettle from , nothing is gained, unless you go to the expense of a filter jug and the ongoing cost of the filters!!

[MsLockYourPosts Passed Volunteer]

I assume "furs up" means ends up with lime deposits. Inexpensive white vinegar is great for removing the deposits - also for the rinse cycle in the dishwasher to prevent spots, and as a fabric softener in the rinse cycle of your washer. It has many other uses as well for dealing with hard water.