Court of Protection

[CHanse]

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone in this group had any information on the Court of protection process. I am helping my freind appeal his DOLs through the COP and his anxiety is through the roof and is worrying himself sick about what will be asked of him. He has cirrhosis and Hepatic Encephalopathy and ended up in a care home under a DOL’s after a prolonged episode

[Richard-Allen]

Hello CHanse, this is a tricky one.

I think that honestly having a DoLS order in place is one of the best things you can do with a person who has either a grade 2 or 3 West Haven score assesment with HE.

Over the years I have seen and heard so many horror stories of people refusing medical treatment because in their mind nothing is wrong. Even last year there was a poor gentleman just six miles away from the QE Hospital Birmingham, who died because he refused to go to hospital. His HE was such that he didn't see anything was wrong.

There was also a rather famous radio presenter up in Liverpool a few christmas's ago, who suffered a variceal bleed, but didn't see anthing was wrong, and refused medical treatment. The ambulance crew left and he died later that night.

Some people with HE just don't always understand the servirity of their condition. They may appear quite lucid one minute, but then the next not be compos mentis enough to understand their own urgent needs.

If the DoLS order was to be removed, then I would strongly recommend someone having a medical “Power of Attorney” in place. I’ve seen too many people who could have been saved die all because these preventative measures weren’t in place.

The DoLS order and Power of Attorney are there to help save a life and to prevent the person from doing harm to themselves. It's not a punishement, nor is it an infringement of a persons liberties. It's there to protect a person from themselves.

[CHanse in reply to Richard-Allen]

hi Richard, I really appreciate your reply. I totally understand about the dangers and if the DOLs was removed but the care home he is in is totally unsuitable for him. What would be ideal would be supported housing which is being looked into and his daughter has POA for his medical need so if he did go into another episode we have it covered.

I was hoping just to get some idea about what kind of questions might be asked of the judge.

Thanks again for your reply

Cath

[CHanse in reply to CHanse]

Just to add as well Richard, there hasn’t been a west haven score done for him as apart from HE being briefly mentioned and the symptoms he went through for almost a year were typical of HE no doctor has confirmed the diagnosis and on the DOLs assessor report it simply stated that he has a cognitive impairment. Again this wasn’t made clear what that was.

Cath

[Cariad2022]

Hi CHanse. I had to apply for Deputyship from the COP for my dad. He was in a care home with vascular dementia (and with hindsight I suspect HE) and we hadn't sorted out POA before he was declared to not have mental capacity. I am sorry to be negative but the whole process was a nightmare. It took me over a year to get Deputyship and that was with legal support. The solicitors fees were £5500 but I genuinely don't think I could have done it without them (particular considering my mental state at the time). The process is described online.

I wish you all the best and sincerely hope you have a better experience than I did.

Suzanne

[CHanse in reply to Cariad2022]

Thanks Cariad2022

So far I think we are lucky as I’m appealing the DOLs on his behalf as his ROR and the solicitor is already appointed which is covered under legal aid. She will be his litigation freind in the proceedings. I was really trying to find out about what questions the judge might ask him

Hope everything is okay now for you

Cath

[Cat-B]

hi I have read the other replies and it sounds like your friend needs a full medical diagnosis from a liver consultant. I gave power of attorney for medical and financial to my brother and I made it clear I didn’t want a transplant or to spend more than 2 days in ITU. I can’t see the court over ruling unless there’s new medical information suggesting an improvement. Will he go to a hospital appointment? Also does he still drink?

[CHanse in reply to Cat-B]

Hi Cat-B thanks for your reply. I would agree that he needs a proper diagnosis, He has been in a home for 16 months and has been his normal self since May of this year. He hasn’t had any alcohol for almost two years but started acting totally out of character in May 2021 which lasted a year with intermittent weeks of clarity and now is totally himself.

[Aotea2012]

Given a solicitor has been appointed then they will be in the best position to advise as each case is treated on its own specific issues. DoLs is subject to a high degree of scrutiny and hospitals and care homes have to follow a very strict procedure to place people on a DoLs care plan. There is a specific assessment undertaken by two trained individuals and the Local Authority has to authorise it’s use. DoLs are subject to reviews and should have involved his family in the assessment process. The Court of Protection is the correct formal appeal process but I can’t tell from your post whether more informal discussions with the care home have taken place to discuss whether it’s the most appropriate place for him. The care home will be being paid by the LA I assume. Funding packages are also reviewed frequently. It’s probably best to exhaust all informal routes before reverting to the COP as it’s a complex process and a better solution may be to see if the DoLs can be removed by a further assessment.

[CHanse in reply to Aotea2012]

Thank you for replying Aotea2012, the court process is underway and a hearing is scheduled in 5 weeks. He is quite anxious about it as his memory isn’t great after the episode he had. The care home stated that they were more concerned about his physical health than his mental health when he was last seen by the independent assessor.

[Readlots]

Hi, I don’t know about the Court of Protection but some courts are open to the public so you can go and watch a case similar to your own and get a feel forvwhat it’s like and what questions are asked. Given the sensitive nature of CZoP it may not be possible but worth exploring

[Readlots in reply to Readlots]

scrap that suggestion :

There are separate rules (the Court of Protection Rules) which govern practice in the Court of Protection. These include a 'general rule' (rule 4.1) that proceedings will be in private, although the court can make an order allowing a hearing or part of it to be heard in public (rule 4.3).

[CHanse in reply to Readlots]

thank you, I might have a look on line to see if there is any thing there

[Readlots in reply to CHanse]

There do seem to be judgements published online which might be of help in understanding why Judges rule one way or another, what’s influenced them. bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCOP/

[Ramshorn]

Hello, it may be worth either ringing or emailing whichever Court is dealing with the case. Court of Protection proceedings do not have open hearings and the Court does not publish names of any parties involved. The Court staff should be able to either advise you or point you in the direction of further information. I do work in a Court that covers Court of Protection work but I have not yet worked in that area.

[CHanse in reply to Ramshorn]

thanks for your reply. I have no idea which outlet it is as it’s going to be an on line teams meeting I’ll probably wait until he sees his solicitor and ask then,

[AyrshireK]

I don't know if you've seen this but it outlines all the safeguards and factors they may look a with the DoLs. lawsociety.org.uk/topics/pr...

My father in law was held on one due to dementia where he was deemed a danger to himself and potentially others as he was aggressive/forthright. All his care home fees were met as he was on the DoLs order and there was no one in the community able to care for him, he was denying nurses access to his home, smashed key safe off the wall and broke into his secure medicine safe. Poor hubby had to push for him to be mentally assessed and eventually he was placed on the DoLs and admitted to a care home. Convinced that caring for his Dad and all the stress that came with it contributed to hubbies ill health.

I guess one of the biggies that they will be looking at is the patients cognitive function and capacity - are they safe to go into the community and what care and supports are going to be available to him once he's at liberty. Is someone going to be there 24/7 or close at hand for if he 'goes off' again. Some sort of supervision, Power of Attorney type thing needs to come into play.

I don't think you can really prep for the tribunal, the answers he gives need to be honest to allow the correct decisions to be made. I am sure his lawyer will support and prepare you as best they can.

Katie

[CHanse in reply to AyrshireK]

thank you so much for sharing your experience Katie, my freind is rational but very scared that he will clam up in front of the judge due to his anxiety.

I hope he won’t but he has if anything been too respectful in front of the previous DOLs psychiatrist and not explained himself fully.

Hopefully the next step for him is some form of supported living with his own front door but has access around him to the support he might need going forward.

[Readlots]

Sometimes courts ask people if there is anything else they would like to tell them. You could ask the solicitor if they are likely to do that. Your friend could prepare a statement to read out, or ask his solicitor to read it out for him, so that he feels he’s said everything that’s important to him.

[CHanse in reply to Readlots]

That's a great idea, thank you and I will ask the solicitor when we see her.