Interesting article on osteoporosis - Bone Health and O...

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Interesting article on osteoporosis

Fruitandnutcase profile image
66 Replies

In this month’s Good Housekeeping magazine.Dr Sarah Jarvis is asking why when she is fit and healthy she has as she puts it ‘the bones of a 90 year old.’

There probably isn’t much we don’t know about the condition but it’s always interesting to read about other people’s experiences.

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Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase
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66 Replies
MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86

I haven’t read the article but did it give any explanation as to why? How old is the lady in the article? I was diagnosed with osteoporosis at 29 so I know the feeling x

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMyStar86

She was 60 when she had her first DEXA scan (which isn’t particularly young) and discovered her spine was -3.8, she says she has a degree of osteoporosis she’s only used to seeing in her 90 year old patients! Can’t say I would agree with that to be honest.

She hadn’t broken anything but close friend had a couple of fractures and that obviously set her thinking. She saw her GP about having an DEXA either privately or on the NHS and it turned out that her lack of periods when she was young qualified her for an NHS DEXA scan. She sounds like a lot of us in that she was really shocked about it all and is wondering what she did or didn’t do in her earlier life that led to it and there seem to be several possibilities.

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toFruitandnutcase

Hmmm sounds interesting but I think everyone has a story but I don’t think -3.8 is that bad I know it’s bad but at 34 in 2021 my hips were -3.3 and I’ve heard people on here with much worse scores but I’m guessing she is famous so has made a big story about it but it’s good to raise awareness of osteoporosis in younger people. However sometimes I feel what you don’t know can’t hurt you I was happy not knowing but then I broke my hip and found osteopenia then later after a lot of steroids for Crohn’s I had a another DEXA which found osteoporosis and I was shocked at the decline within a short time frame.

I hope you are doing ok and thanks for sharing. I hope you had a good Christmas and a good start to the new year x

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMyStar86

Think she is the magazine’s resident doctor rather than famous but it is frightening how little awareness she had about osteoporosis. I’m like you I don’t think -3.8 is that bad - not great but as you say there are people wrong here with much worse and who have multiple fractures.

We had a quiet but good Christmas thank you, not sure if I’m looking forward to or apprehensive about what the new year will bring. You can never tell these days can you. Anyway, a happy new year to you too.

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toFruitandnutcase

Roll on the new year I have had enough of 2023 this year has definitely been that hardest I’ve suffered in a long time it’s multiple surgeries lots of tests and treatments that have caused more issues so I am hoping 2024 things will turn around for the better! I don’t usually even bother to stay awake to see the new year in but this year I am going to as I want to try and do everything differently and hope for the best.

Osteoporosis is a nightmare I had osteopenia at 18 so I’ve had to learn about it fast over the years but I just ignored it till I broke my hip whilst running then I knew I had to be more careful but I was so fit and healthy I thought I would be ok then years later I broke all my ribs in multiple places once it was osteoporosis and that was horrific I’ll never get over it or forget it but still I was scared to have any treatment it wasn’t until I knew I was going to have to have a total hysterectomy that I gave in and started the zolendronic acid infusions so it’s been a long journey and one I seem to of had most of ny life.

Anyway I’m waffling on I hope you have a wonderful day and don’t be afraid of the new year I hope it brings you all good things focus on the positive in trying to teach myself to do that xx

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMyStar86

No, not waffling on. You have had a horrendous time over the years. Ribs are horrific. Forty or so years ago I fell at a roller skating rink and as I came down I landed on the corner of a small barrier wall. I didn’t even break anything and I was young but boy was I in agony for months and months. I watched something on TV about a lady who had been given a new kidney, her op was done on the same day that I damaged my ribs and they made a news item about her going back to work happy and smiling - there was I still in a lot of pain, I couldn’t believe it.

I hadn’t realised how much healthy ribs mattered - that’s the trouble, you never really think of your body when things are going well.

I wish you everything you want for 2024 but I bet you just want a very healthy and happy year. 🎉🥂

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toFruitandnutcase

Oh I know ribs you don’t have any idea till you hurt them in never even thought about them but when they are injured when I broke all mine I could feel them hurting every time I took a breath so it was 24:7 reminding me of the agony it’s so scary. I barely left the house for nearly 8 months only for hospital things but even that was a challenge. I hate that when you see people with these bloody miracle stories having something wrong then everything being perfect life back to normal in the gym working and you are still suffering and feel really guilty like you are not trying hard enough. I had ileostomy surgery 9 weeks ago now and I’m worse than I was before the surgery it’s just awful but when I see all these recovery stories of it being the miracle cure I want to scream it drives me mad and makes me upset because I feel like I’ve let everyone down and I hate it but that’s another story one I hope to leave behind in 2023!!

Next year has got to be better for us all 🙏🏻 I hope you have a lovely weekend and wake up next week to a fresh start with a year filled with positivity and happy times ahead xx

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMyStar86

Don’t compare your recovery to anyone else, just take care of yourself and get better at your own pace. My husband had keyhole surgery for his gall bladder on a Wednesday, I collected him on the Wednesday night and we met our neighbour a consultant anaesthesia on the Saturday morning when we were out for a walk. She couldn’t believe it - he was fine but that was very unusual, we’ve known of other people who took ages to recover. It’s just the luck of the draw. You just ignore it all and get better in your own time.

Here’s to 2024 being if not a year of great health at least a year of good health.

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toFruitandnutcase

Thank you I had my gallbladder out in 2010 I can’t really remember that recovery but I think I’ve just had too many surgery’s my poor little body has been through it and now it’s just saying no I’m done. I will take it steady and just see how it goes as I’ve got some complications going on as well so I’ll need more surgery so I need to know my recovery isn’t a simple one and I was broken before the surgery so I shouldn’t be expecting miracles. Thank you for being so kind 🥰 it means a lot.

Definitely good health I hope it is for you too and it is a fresh start I usually sleep through it but I think this year I want to do everything differently to make sure it’s a better year xx big hugs and have a lovely weekend

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMyStar86

((( Big hugs to you too))) You’ve got me thinking maybe I should stay up - last couple of years we’ve been in bed well before midnight so maybe a change is called for 🎉🥂

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toFruitandnutcase

Definitely time for a change even if I am going to get myself ready for bed so I can say woohoo happy new year then run to bed 🤣 that still counts as me being up for it.

Keep in touch and let’s hope our changes make next years a good one!! It’s been nice chatting to you today xx

jozef123 profile image
jozef123 in reply toMyStar86

Hi there. I just thought I d check in with you and say I really hope this is a better year for you. You’re so young to have had so much to deal with. Keep going you’re doing well even to bother posting. As you say Happy times ahead. We ll all keep saying it and then it might happen xxxx

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply tojozef123

Thank you so much for caring that truly means a lot, I think posting on here has kept me going recently knowing I’m not alone because I have been so close to giving up especially after the medication that was meant to help me made me worse that’s very scary as it was the one thing I was holding on to. Unfortunately it has been a terrible start to the new year I’m not sure how I made it through but I think my survival instinct is working overtime. I need to start a fresh tomorrow well today as it’s the early hours and work out a plan about the meds till I can speak to the pain man and get me through till I can have the first procedure for my bowel and hope that it helps. I feel happier when I have a plan that’s what keeps me going however I am very scared now I never knew life could be this bad but I will keep trying and fighting for the right help. Thank you so much, I hope you had a lovely Christmas and a good start to the new year. Massive hugs and thank you again xx

jozef123 profile image
jozef123 in reply toMyStar86

Good for you love, don’t ever give up. You’re so right I always try to do that too regarding health and I did even after Christmas. I have also spent all day on the phone trying to sort out some new appointments. Getting nowhere, I ll start again tomorrow. That’s got to be the motto. Start again tomorrow. You’re doing brilliantly. Lots of love xx

Yoga99 profile image
Yoga99 in reply toMyStar86

Hi. Sounds like it’s been a difficult and painful journey. Hope your starting to feel better soon. Could I ask how your getting on with the infusions? I’ve been asked to consider them and somewhat apprehensive due to side effects?

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toYoga99

Hi, Thank you for caring but I can’t see this getting better I am trapped in a nightmare I have days where I can smile which I treasure but I can’t see a future so it’s very upsetting. The infusions are a tricky one the first one I had I swore I would never get another one as I struggled with the side effects I had terrible sickness that never went away and still take anti sickness pills but nothing like it was at the start and they don’t warn you about the bone pain oh that’s horrible but that does only last a few weeks maybe more with the first infusion but I remember saying I can feel my tail bone throbbing and I didn’t even know I had a tail bone before it that makes sense. My legs felt like wet wellingtons very heavy so it was a shock however they do wear off so don’t fret it’s just the first month can be a little tough I wasn’t going to have the second infusion it was only after my DEXA showed my scores had really improved in my spine and a ct scan showed my rib fractures had finally healed that pushed me to get the second one. The side effects were not as bad the bone pain and heavy legs lasted a few weeks as I made the mistake of having a hospital appointment in London less than a week after and that was so hard as I travel from Bournemouth by train and I really struggled walking around but I didn’t have the sickness the same. I found they upset my bowels but as you can see from my history everything affects those so I don’t know if that is due to the infusion or just my stupid body. I am due for my 3rd infusion at the end of the month which I will be putting off as I have so many things going on with my bowels and more surgery so I can’t risk making myself worse however if I can get myself stable I would get another one as I do t want any more fractures so it’s a tricky one.

I hope that helps a little but not everyone gets side effects so don’t judge it by me I can only go on my own experience some people just get mild flu symptoms. My mum has to have them post breast cancer and she had the bone pain like me which lasted a few weeks and she has merry legs restless leg syndrome and it made that worse but otherwise she was ok.

Let me know if you have anymore questions xx

Yoga99 profile image
Yoga99 in reply toMyStar86

Thank you for taking the time to reply and sharing experience.

Can understand why despite the side effects going for further infusions is considered despite the side effect’s.

It really is a minefield of information with so much information about what you should eat, drink , exercise etc etc.

I just want to reach retirement and enjoy it! Plus family in Australia hope to keep making the gruelling journey.

Was so shocked to get diagnosed following Ankle fracture.

Best wishes to you xx

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toYoga99

I do totally understand it’s very had to know what to do and I agree there is a lot of conflicting advice on how to help ie what to drink, eat, supplement and do. You will also see on here everyone has a different opinion so it can be hard to know where to do turn but it is an individual journey so whilst it’s good to listen to others and read information the best place for facts is the ROS

theros.org.uk

May I ask how old you are? Do you know your recent DEXA scores? Do you know the cause of your osteoporosis? The last question is also key when looking into treatment. Are you under a Rheumatologist? They would be best place to know if need bio phosphate medication as it depends on the cause of your osteoporosis and the severity of the osteoporosis.

I hope some of this helps and I’m always happy to answer any questions, I’m not a doctor or a pro on osteoporosis however I know what it’s like to suffer and the confusion of not knowing how to help things. I personally don’t believe in all the random supplements people suggest except calcium and vitamin D but again it’s based on blood tests if you need to supplement, personally I don’t as I drink 1ltr of almond milk a day which keeps my blood levels in a healthy range and supplements don’t agree with my guts however o would consider talking calcium and vit d if my levels fell below the range.

Good luck xx

Yoga99 profile image
Yoga99 in reply toMyStar86

My DEXA Score for spine is -4.0 which was done August last year. My other scores were -2.4 so okay.

As far as I’m aware no underlying cause identified. I already have osteoarthritis of spine and manage bi lateral sciatica that never goes away.

Do have IBS and was taking omeprazole . Different opinions whether these contribute.

Otherwise fairly healthy and work full time.

Now 63 hoping to be as fit as I can be when I retire!

Hence the indecision reference the infusion.

I am taking vitamin D . The almond milk sounds like a good idea!

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toYoga99

I wonder what was the cause of your osteoporosis……you don’t have to say but did you go through menopause early? The lack of oestrogen can be a big contributing factor. How long have you been on omeprazol? If you have IBS at least they are not trying to put you on the pills the infusion is a much better option.

On the plus side the infusion has reversed my spine osteoporosis t scores to now -2.4 so my spine is now osteopenia which is why I was happier to have the second infusion because the spine has always been the part of osteoporosis that worried me the most.

It sounds like you are doing well working full time and apart from Ibs being well so I’m surprised they haven’t investigated the.cause of your osteoporosis because if there is an underlying reason having the infusions wouldn’t necessarily help they need to treat the cause.

You can put zolendronic acid in the search at the top and I’m sure you will find lots of people discussing it with different views so it is a personal decision.

Yes almond milk is amazing it gives me 150% of my calcium and vit D and I love it so that’s a bonus xx

Yoga99 profile image
Yoga99 in reply toMyStar86

Yes it’s my spine that concerns me and that’s why the Rheumatologist suggested the infusion.

No I was about average age 50ish. Just about remember that far back 🤣

My thyroid etc are all ok. Could be just one of those things!

Good to hear your spine improved significantly!

Will be getting that almond milk this afternoon! Xx

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toYoga99

I have the alpro almond unsweetened milk and I think it’s on offer at Sainsburys at the moment for £1.35 which is a bonus so I always stock up when it’s on offer as I do get through a lot. It’s best to get the unsweetened one from a health perspective but I guess it’s personal taste I just don’t like added sugars my tummy certainly doesn’t either.

My hips were still the same at -3.3 but without the infusion I think they would of gotten a lot worse especially after my hysterectomy and all my bowel surgeries however I will be putting off the 3rd one just till I’ve got my surgeries out the way and things have settled down health wise.

You should get your gp to check your blood calcium and vitamin D levels as they need to be good before you could start the infusions.

Let me know how you get on and what you decide xx

Yoga99 profile image
Yoga99 in reply toMyStar86

No I’m not great with added sugar either. I shop at Sainsburys so that’s perfect.

Sounds like a daunting journey all the surgery you have had and still more to come. Hopefully things will start to get better after and you can enjoy things more.

They have tested my calcium and vit d! All good 😊

Yes will let you know. You take care xx

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toYoga99

Thank you and I really hope so as I am definitely rubbing out of fight so I am really hoping they can sort it soon this year as it all starts in February so in counting down the days even tho I know it will take a lot to get some kind of a life back but even a tiny bit less pain would be a miracle at this rate.

That’s good that your levels are ok, do you think you will go ahead with the infusion? Have you had many fractures? That was definitely the driving force for me the pain of the ribs is something I will never forget so I think people who haven’t been through fractures are less likely to have the treatment for it.

Take care and I’m always here if you need a chat xx

Yoga99 profile image
Yoga99 in reply toMyStar86

So hope February is the start of a positive change for you. Stay strong! xx

MyStar86 profile image
MyStar86 in reply toYoga99

Thank you so much 🥰 xx

MWZ3 profile image
MWZ3

It sets me wondering how trustworthy these results are. I’ve a feeling that they could be only numbers. If you’re not breaking bones without a bad accident and you’re active and healthy why would you accept the diagnosis!

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMWZ3

Maybe it comes down to bone strength v bone density, although perhaps she is just lucky she hadn’t broken any bones so far - she had a few years with no periods because she ‘over exercised’ when she was young. she avoids sunlight because she burns easily so low vitamin D, she is vegan, she doesn’t eat much in the way of calcium containing food. Considering all that she has probably been extremely lucky not to have fractured.

MWZ3 profile image
MWZ3 in reply toFruitandnutcase

Yes, sounds like it. But it’s common knowledge to check vitamin D levels and make sure you’re getting enough calcium.

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toMWZ3

Well it is to you and I and the members of this site. It’s bizarre really.

1000Miler profile image
1000Miler

Here's a link to the article, for anyone interested in reading it.

gb.readly.com/magazines/goo....

wellness1 profile image
wellness1

I could only read the first few paragraphs, as I don't have an account. Sounds like she cites (presumed) decades of low vitamin D3 levels as a cause. Such an easy thing to screen for. So many missed opportunities for earlier diagnosis and prevention...

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply towellness1

So many missed opportunities indeed - and her a doctor too! She says she avoided the sun because she burns easily, she disliked milk and didn’t eat cheese because it is packed with saturated fats, she is vegan and she appears to have ‘over exercised’ which caused a decrease in oestrogen which meant several years without periods.

I got the magazine on Kindle Unlimited - next time you are in a supermarket you could always ‘browse’ the magazine section. I can’t believe that some doctors still seem to be unaware of the importance of vitamin D for health. I’ve been a member of TUK since 2012 and I’m sure it was known about before then.

Winnkle profile image
Winnkle in reply towellness1

Readly are usually quite good at giving you a month's free trial. It saves me a fortune on magazines and you can get newspapers as well.

1000Miler profile image
1000Miler in reply towellness1

You don't have to sign up for a subscription. You can read that article free of charge, but you do need to create an account. Just click on the bit that says "read this article only" and don't sign up to any email mailing lists.

Southerngirl2787 profile image
Southerngirl2787

At the time I had my OP diagnosis, age 50, it was severe, out of no where, and my doctors didn't check my Vit D levels. I had a parathyroid tumor undiagnosed for years...three doctors missed it...we cannot depend on doctors to do the correct diagnostic testing. I live where there's lots of sun, southeast Texas, and not afraid of it either. Luckily my levels stay 60-75, but with the parathyroid tumor it was down to 30. I think of the damage to my body, makes me so mad...they wouldn't listen that something was wrong. Wrote it off to "female stress"....even a female doctor.

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toSoutherngirl2787

That is awful isn’t it. I get mad at doctors treating ‘their’ part of your body in isolation. So that meds for one thing have a knock on effect on another part of your body but they don’t bother to tell you it may happen. I was diagnosed with a thyroid problem (Graves disease) and I was absolutely amazed because I’d pretty much given up trying to tell my doctors I didn’t feel good. Who would ever have thought you’d actually be delighted to be told you had a serious condition?

You’ve obviously not heard of my ‘three ages of woman’

1. Too young to get anything serious.

2. Middle aged - neurotic hypochondriac.

3. Too old to bother about.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toFruitandnutcase

I've been constantly amazed by my current doctor, relatively young, who takes my timid mentions of things which have been worrying me quite seriously! The previous doctor, female (who did however quickly diagnose my PMR) I silently nicknamed Dr I'm Not Worried About That.

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toHeronNS

Actually, I say that but the doctors at my new practice all seem ok. I ditched my last practice and found a much better one.

Now I can easily get through on the phone and get a call back really quickly and either a same day face to face or telephone consultation with a doctor who seems to take what I say seriously. On the phone consultation I had the other week I was told to come back if things got worse and was actually told what she meant by ‘if things got worse ‘ also told to book a routine appointment for something else once my gut feels better. Couldn’t really ask for more.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toFruitandnutcase

That's great!

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toHeronNS

I know, my previous practice was great, I’d been there for forty years but the GPs were about my age and of course they retired. That was ok their replacements were pretty good too then something happened and they were bought out by a group based miles away, all the GPs left and then covid arrived, they didn’t seem to answer their phones or have a place number system on the system, it all went downhill from there. Eventually I left when I was told by a GP who I didnt know and who didn’t know me and that what turned out to be a fractured sacrum ‘was just a touch of osteoarthritis, it’s quite common at your age.’. I’m long suffering but even I have my limits so the new place is really good. I know I come over on here as a bit (a lot my husband would say) cynical but I really was a very good patient. However, I feel I’ve landed on my feet 🤗

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toSoutherngirl2787

Very good points. It's very important that doctors run tests for "secondary causes of osteoporosis" and not just make assumptions.

When I started a medication which is implicated in bone thinning my doctor wanted to immediately put me on alendronic acid. I asked for a DXA scan and spent the couple of months while I waited reading up on everything I could find. The key thing I learned was from a friend of mine who, when told she had osteoporosis, decided she would have nothing to do with the medications and learned about Vitamin K2. I'd never heard of Vitamin K2, didn't know it was important for sending calcium to the bones. Vitamin D enables us to absorb calcium but it doesn't control what happens once it's in the body, hence problems some encounter with taking calcium supplements. In any event I believe learning about this nutrient and taking it, along with all the other recommended things - load-bearing exercise, good diet, etc - enabled me to improve my t-score in one year from -2 to -1.6. With the first figure bisphosphates (which I'd refused) were recommended, with the second that recommendation was dropped.

The most important thing we who eat a standard modern diet need to know is that our diet is probably severely deficient in Vitamin K2. This has been caused at least in part by the way animals are raised. Grain-fed cattle do not produce K2, therefore we can't obtain it from our meat or dairy products. Fermented foods supply some, and we can convert a bit in our own gut, but for anyone already facing bone thinning that will not be enough. Vitamin K1 (our old friend who helps blood to clot when we cut ourselves) has no part in calcium use, so although our diets can be quite abundant in K1 that doesn't help the skeleton. Vitamin K2 supplements derive from natto, a fermented soy product, if anyone is interested in obtaining their K2 from food. I've not tried it myself, it is famously an acquired taste, and have heard it described as being simultaneously slimy and crunchy, but I have also heard a Japanese doctor say that if any food could justly be called a superfood, natto qualifies!

Southerngirl2787 profile image
Southerngirl2787 in reply toHeronNS

I am constantly amazed when I advise a friend to get K2, they do not know of it, and will check with doctor, then doctor says, don't take that! My SIL, who is a family practice doctor, balked when I told her about it...and she is now in OP range, worried sick she will fracture. Read!! Study!!!! I have numerous food allergies/sensitivities, among them most veggies, go straight through me, no absorption, so supplements are required. I tried the seaweed and natto "crackers"...oh my awful!

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toSoutherngirl2787

I've got a friend whose Canadian son lives in Japan and has a Japanese wife. He likes natto and she can't stand it! I think this is one case where I'll stick with the capsules :D

I don't think doctors should advise on nutrition as they are not properly trained in it. On the other hand, my daughter is a registered dietitian and she hadn't heard of Vitamin K2 until I told her about it, and suggested she read Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox. (In fairness she was a fairly newly-minted professional at the time.)

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toHeronNS

My fracture liaison nurse hadn’t heard of K2 either. I told him what it was but I’m not sure he will investigate and pass it on to his patients. Think he just thought I was some sort of crank.

Southerngirl2787 profile image
Southerngirl2787 in reply toHeronNS

If only my mother had not used Tums as her calcium supplement...cardiologist said those things had a tremendous impact on the blocks in her arteries. She had 4 arterial surgeries, bypass 2x, lost count of stents. And her PCP said they were fine to take, so she chewed those things all day long! She also was 99% vegan, refused to eat fat, and ate way too many greens...not knowing that they are anti-nutrients-oxalates, and take minerals from your body!

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toSoutherngirl2787

I'm so sorry that happened to your mother. She undoubtedly felt she was eating as healthily as possible. Interesting about the Tums. I guess this is why we are now being warned not to overdo calcium supplementation, as calcium carbonate is the go-to supplement so many places. I remember reading around the time I started taking calcium supplements in mid-life that calcium citrate was much better, and it was not available at my pharmacy, had to go to a health and wellness store! I still get my calcium supplements from there - and my vitamin K2, which is still not sold in pharmacies where I live. 🤷

wellness1 profile image
wellness1 in reply toSoutherngirl2787

I mentioned vitamin K2 to an osteoporosis specialist who hadn't heard of it. He said I was the second person to mention it to him and he must look into it! I think perhaps some people confuse it with K1 and get concerned about its effect on coagulation,

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply towellness1

Dentists seem to be much more aware of Vitamin K2, I think because they see a lot of damaged jaws, so are more aware of the effects of various medications on the skeleton than physicians.

wellness1 profile image
wellness1 in reply toHeronNS

That's interesting about dentists. I asked one, not my usual dentist, about bisphosphonates and dental health. She said if you need them, you need them!

Admittedly vitamins get scant attention in medical school curricula, but it surprises me that a physician who's an OP specialist would be unfamiliar with vitamin K2. At least vitamin D3 has gained mainstream acceptance. But it would be better if K2 and magnesium were mentioned as co-factors.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply towellness1

A couple of years ago I tried to find some easy to understand items about K2 on the internet, and nearly universally they were commentaries on dental clinic websites! I haven't qizzed my own dentists about K2 although one I spoke to this summer - as I was undergoing some interesting dental adventures and mentioned how I'd found a liquid probiotic I take ( theculturedcoconut.com/ ) seemed to restore oral microbiome after a prescribed mouthwash had killed it off - seemed very open to that topic.

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply toHeronNS

I’ve got a book somewhere - it might possibly be the K2 Paradox but I’m not sure, anyway it shows photographs of the development of children’s teeth when they have been deprived of K2. Their mouths are very narrow and the teeth are out of alignment so I’m not surprised dentists are aware of the importance of K2.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toFruitandnutcase

I don't think it's that book, don't remember illustrations, so if you remember the title, do let me know. I've got Paradox and another much simpler book by I think, someone called Goodman, but they are both on my Kobo which I'm too lazy to dig out and recharge. ;)

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase in reply towellness1

It would indeed be much better. I’m sure I said earlier that when I told my fracture liaison nurse I took K2 and why he just looked at me as if I was a bit odd. I think a lot of people in roles like that are told what to say and don’t look any further.

I remember thinking that when I was given steroids for my arthritis and developed steroid induced T2 diabetes. I was given the NHS (carb laden) Healthy Plate diet sheet and left to it.

I went back after three months to see if I had managed to reduce my HbA1c which I had done having read and put into action Dr David Cavan’s book on how to reverse your T2 diabetes - when I said how I’d done it she didn’t seem to take onboard that my blood sugar went down because I’d cut right back on carbs from grains. I thought at the time that she had been ‘programmed’ about what to say and had no curiosity or interest in anything else and I think that’s how it is with K2 at the moment. It’s seen as being a bit weird and eccentric.

Justme16 profile image
Justme16 in reply towellness1

I went to a recommended implantologist as I considered getting implant for soon to be removed front tooth. I told him I had OP but had never taken AA. He said 'good. NEVER take them'.

wellness1 profile image
wellness1 in reply toJustme16

That's interesting, no equivocating there then. ;) I assume he said that because of the risk of ONJ, rather than broader concerns with bisphosphonates. It seems dentists may be nore sensitive to the issue, since they work with the jaw, as HeronNS mentioned above. Hope your dental work goes well.

Justme16 profile image
Justme16 in reply towellness1

Thanks 🙏

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS in reply toJustme16

I had an implant this summer and one of the main things necessary is that the relevant bone be in good condition! So far all has gone really well but waiting for appointment to see dentist to have temporary crown replaced. Middle front tooth. 😁

Justme16 profile image
Justme16 in reply toHeronNS

Yes, I would need bone graft as had apisectomy 25 years ago.

HeronNS profile image
HeronNS

I went to an OP workshop at my local hospital where we were given presentations by several specialists (the physiotherapist was the most useful). I asked the rheumatologist about K2. She said there had been 4 studies and they said the vitamin had no effect on bone density. She also didn't have an answer for me when I asked about Vitamin D supplementation for people like me who have sarcoidosis and tend to run high Vitamin D levels. When I got home I looked up Vitamin K2 as I knew there had been far more studies done on K2, especially in Japan, and the connection to bone density is pretty much proven. Indeed, top of the search were four studies, which did not appear to clearly differentiate between K1 and K2!

The two vitamins perform such different operations in the human body it seems like they should have different names, or at the very least be given the same attention and respect as the various B vitamins!

Just had another look and it was very easy to find this article - top of my search list. But I do acknowledge that it was only published a little over a year before my encounter with the rheumatologist. I remember she referred to alendronic acid as "her" medicine and had no other useful suggestions for treatment, let alone prevention.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

wellness1 profile image
wellness1

Oh, that's interesting. Several years ago I went to a holistic dentist who removed my mercury amalgam fillings using the SMART protocol and he was very open to/knowledgable about integrative medicine. Very clued in about the oral microbiome. You could even see the microscopic microbial activity in your mouth projected on a screen.

'interesting dental adventures' don't sound very appealing. :) I hope the year to come brings good things your way.

Met00 profile image
Met00

She hadn't broken anything and only gave one score, -3.8 for her spine. She said scores below -3.0 are classed as "severe" osteoporosis, but risk (and therefore severity) is supposed to be based on FRAX fracture risk scores, not t-scores alone. Personally I wouldn't describe osteoporosis as severe without fractures, as it's perfectly possible to have low bone density but strong bones, something that highly possible in this case as she does a lot of exercise. It's also quite common for errors to be made in DEXA scanning, particularly with the spine, so I would also want to know her total hip and neck of femur scores and to check that her individual vertebrae scores are similar to each other, with BMD increasing from L1 to L4. These are things that should be checked by the radiographer, but having recently seen my detailed results, I can say from experience that this isn't always the case!

emersee profile image
emersee in reply toMet00

Severe Osteoporosis is at and below -2.5, not -3.0. When you say "it is quite common for errors to be made in DEXA scanning" - your wording concerns me. How do you know this and what statistics can you quote to support this? Also, your comment might deter people from obtaining a DEXA scan and then the appropriate treatment. Please be careful with your generalised comments.

Met00 profile image
Met00 in reply toemersee

I checked official sources, which describe severe osteoporosis as having a t-score in the osteoporosis range (as you say, -2.5 and lower) PLUS at least one fragility fracture. I was disputing Dr Jarvis's claim that she had severe osteoporosis on the basis of a -3.0 t-score but no fractures. I understand your concerns about putting people off having DEXA scans, but equally I'm concerned that sometimes people are diagnosed and given medication when they don't actually have osteoporosis. That happened to me, and I know a few others it's happened to. In my case I wasn't far off osteoporosis, so it was a useful diagnosis in providing the incentive to make lifestyle changes, but I didn't actually need the medication I took for a year.

Here are some articles about DEXA errors: info.atlantisworldwide.com/...; pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/303...; pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/318.... There are many more. I don't have the actual statistics to hand, but have heard figures of 50% and higher quoted. One consultant has noted that these are often concentrated in specific scan centres, which may be an indication of operator training issues or other local shortcomings.

Fruitandnutcase profile image
Fruitandnutcase

Yes -3.8

emersee profile image
emersee

It is probably misleading that she said she has the bones of a 90 year old. Osteoporosis does not discriminate between age groups. There are many people in their 20s and increasing ages with this horrible disease.

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