Anyone here post heart attack that has taken themselves off Statins , With or without Dr's approval!
Statins : Anyone here post heart attack... - British Heart Fou...
Statins
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Yes. I took myself off statins 2 weeks after my NSTEMI and stent in April 2020, along with the beta blocker. I stopped the blood pressure pills shortly afterwards as my BP was clearly too low. I stopped the clopidogrel after 6 months and the aspirin after 18 months. All of these meds caused me significant problems.
I'm doing well now completely med free, although I've made considerable lifestyle changes. I'd like to tell you what my GP thinks but I haven't been able to see him since my heart attack.
I'm not advising anyone else to do this, merely saying that it has worked for me.
Thank you for your honest reply !Totally unacceptable that you have not been able to see a GP since your heart attack!
But glad to hear you are doing well
I have also made considerable lifestyle changes with diet, processed foods imho being responsible for so many health issues, I'm 3 stone lighter, have reversed type 2 Diabetes and officially in Remission.
GP agreed with me I no longer need beta blockers and due to come off clopidogrel end of feb.
I made a GP appointment for end of Jan where I intend to put my case for coming off Statins ..
I know he won't agree but I feel I can give him a valid reason as to why I feel they potentially are doing more harm than good...
Hence this post today .
I'm sure it will be an interesting but tricky appointment 😁
Good luck. I noticed you've gone down the low carb route which is what I've been doing for over 3 years now. Pretty much the only "processed" food I consume now is 85% chocolate and moderate alcohol. I've seen similar levels of weight loss and rarely get hungry.
Yes, Low carb,
Although I tend to have a few more now, but still restrict simple carbs .
I also used intermittent fasting.I'm also allowing myself 85% chocolate..
Ahh .. don't drink alcohol 🙂
Not that I'm against , just don't want it ... 🙂
I am glad you reversed the diabetes. I also reversed mine about five years before I develeoped angnia and had a stent inserted which was last July. I lost 11kg on a crash diet to reverse my diabetes but didn't change my diet at all. I based this on work my Proffessor Roy Taylor of Newcastle University. His work is well researched and easy to understand. He thinks type 2 diabetes is caused by fat in the pancreas and liver and loosing wieght means the fat goes from those places first. He also showed that in type 2 diabetes the pancreas shrinks and becomes mishapen but when it reverses it regrows in about two years. Programmes based on his research are being rolled out by the NHS in some areas. His research would fit in with what you have experienced, ie loosing wieght in many people reverses diabetes if done in the first few years after diagnosis.
Hello. Thank you for all your comments on this site. Yourself and others here have really interested me regarding medication etc especially the use of satins. There is some amazing views and ideas from yourself and others on this site and I thank you all. Such help and support from many here. I had originally in January this year what they thought was a HA having chest pains and unable to breath in deeply without pain. After being admitted and all the usual test they found I was bradycardia and had a 100 percent RCA and Angina was the main cause. My artery was ballooned but unable to place a stent due to my artery being to narrow at the ends. They opened this as far as they could and got good blood flow. I February I had a pacemaker fitted for me bradycardia. In the beginning of all this in January I was placed on the usual cocktail of drugs, dispersal Aspirin, gastric medication landsopol, blood thinners and Astrovasatin 80mg. I was fine on this medication untill a week after pacemaker middle of February. Since then and still continuing for over 6weeks now have terrible stomach issues, all the usually, wind and diarrhea 3/4 times each day and fed up of constantly taking replacement fluids sachets. Dr tried all anti diarrhea meds and stool test but meds never worked and stool test all fine. GP says medication not causing this but I am not that sure they are right I would welcome if or what medication I am taking you may know or have experienced may be causing this. GP baffled as I was fine on all for 4weeks and then the nightmare of symptoms began. I know none of us are medics but I find other people's views and experiences more beneficial at times and more supportive in working with your own body and identifying the culprit. Thank you so much for your input here
Yes, I never filled the prescription. They tried to convince me I have cholesterol disease inherited from family, based on levels while in hospital, I know my LDL history and it has always been , and still is, in the high end of the optimal range. My GP did his job and recited the prescription protocol since he is required to prescribe, and I in turn consented to acknowledging his advice, refused the statin and that is in my file. BTW he no longer runs a cholesterol panel on me and I am ok with that. What i did take was the dual antiplatelet meds. for the duration of a year.
Thank you for your contribution...Very interesting.
Unfortunately we are often relying on outdated understanding from our health professionals...
Stay healthy 🙏
Unfortunately we are often relying on outdated understanding from our health professionals...
A very wide sweeping statement, and what do you back it up with ?
Not looking for a fight just it seems a little off the mark to me NICE are checking all the time . If anyone is ready to take the risk of giving up medication good luck to them it is Their choice and no one else's . If they need a lift to A & E 999 is the number to call.
I would like to see the Consultants reaction when He/She is told " I stopped the Meds thought the info on them was out of date " mmmmmmmmmm
Regards
Thank you for your reply , Although your sarcastic responce is neither needed nor helpful.....
But to be polite and answer your question (albeit briefly as I am not prepared to waste too much time responding to sarcasm)
I would back it up with my 11 months of research and studying of many books and seminars given by many highly regarded medical professionals.
And my now significantly higher understanding as to the likely causes of many metabolic diseases including CVD , diabetes and metabolic syndrome to name just a few.
And my own success in regaining my health and reversing T2D
Some names would be :
Dr Michael Moseley.
Cardiovascular surgeon Dr Pradip Jamnadas.D
Dr Malcolm Kendrick.
Nephrologist Dr Jason Fung.
Dr Robert H. Lustig pediatric endocrinologist.
Dr Mark Hyman.
The information is there if you wish to take it onboard.
I wish you good health!
My comments aren't meant to be sarcastic but |I have read all your replies in this thread and I feel you are obsessed with a campaign against Statins. I will keep following NICE like I do on everything else Heart Related.
Well, if posting to remind people that don't agree with YOUR choice of beliefs that the emergency number is 999 isn't sarcastic then I don't know what is 🤔
And if you have read all my replies then you can clearly see that I do not have a campaign against Statins .
Your perception of my replies is obviously biased and steered by your own perspective which is fine .
But If you notice my original post you will see it was simply to ask people if they had come off Statins. Nothing more .
However when someone replies with their point of view then I'm happy to read it, consider it and reply with my own .
I would not describe that as a campaign against Statins .
I'm pleased to hear you are happy following NICE guidelines .
That is your choice and I would have no desire to dismiss that .
Stay healthy
There are many posts on this forum, including at least two in the last two or three weeks, regarding whether you should take statins or not. The general consensus is that the benefits outweigh any risks, although there are some who believe it is better not to take them. Statins do two things, first they reduce cholesterol and beneficially change the lipid profile but also, and importantly, they apparently stabilise any laid down arterial plaque. So even if you already have a low natural total cholesterol level, and the need for any further reduction is debatable, the plaque stabilising feature of taking stains can bring benefits, as well as the lipid profile changes. So before anyone decides whether they should abstain from taking statins, perhaps against their health professional's advice, my view is that they should make sure that the evidence upon which they are basing that decision comes from a credible source, for it is currently the medical view that taking statins is on the whole beneficial, especially if an individual has known heart disease, and it is for that reason they are prescribed for millions of people around the world.
Finally no-one likes taking medication, me included, but like many things in life it is often a question of assessing the benefits they bring compared to the risk, and then choosing accordingly. And for the record I take statins, have done for nearly 25 years to reduce a very high total cholesterol to something significantly better, and firmly believe I wouldn't be writing this had I not taken them based on the evidence I have about my situation.
Thank you for your contribution, much appreciated although I would suggest the general consensus is changing .Just like it has on other misleading health advice that we have been force fed for many years .
And unfortunately we are advised by perhaps well meaning GP' s who are following flawed outdated guidelines.
Why does the liver make cholesterol ?
Because the body needs it , the liver would not make it otherwise.
80% of the Cholesterol made by the liver is Glucose and 20% Fat and the amount made is due to the body demands
We have also been led to believe that HDL is good and LDL is bad .... unfortunately it's not quite that simple !
Both these elements have an important role .
HDl is mainly a carrier which takes excess Cholesterol back to the liver.
LDL is a repairer and rebuilder and will therefore likely be found where repair and rebuilding is necessary!
Often the arteries.
LDL of course does something else of great importance... It delivers Cholesterol to the Brain.... And yes, the Brain needs a fair bit of Cholesterol.
The Brain consumes around 15 times more fuel than any over cells .
Glucose burns at around 4 calories/gram whereas fat burns at around 9 calories/gram
Which is why the brain loves and needs fat.
by artificially reducing this supply we are literally starving the Brain of fuel .
This is of course just scratching the surface of the affect of artificially reducing Cholesterol with the use of Statins .
What the now changing general consensus failed to address, understand, accept or pass on was the main reason that Cholesterol was blocking arteries was due to damage by eating processed foods .
The LDL was there to repair this damage .
We are simply NOT addressing the cause !
Just like with the type 2 diabetes epidemic.
Its like blaming the Fire engine for the fire when infact it's there to help !
I could go on and quote you many sources of information on this but I'm just going to mention one which is ' The great Colesterol Con'
By Dr Malcolm Kendrick .
Where I will agree is that we need to make our own decisions, hopefully evidence based .
I wish you continued health 🙏
Processed foods should be banned! I was and still aren't a fan of processed food they for me have never tasted good.I'm also a huge believer in the most beneficial drink for health is water, starting to drink it from being a child rather than juices, tea , coffee is a benefit to our health that cannot be overstated enough.
I've sadly never been a big fan of water especially in large quantities say equal to my massive tea consumption, but over the last couple of years I have and continue to do so increase my water consumption . I have realised tap water is not for me just don't like the taste. I've tried lots of different water all claiming how good they are and finally after spending lots of time and money settled on two that aren't cheap but their my go to suits me, tastes good drink nearly as much as tea.
Yes I would agree on the processed foods poison, have a look at the work of Dr Robert Lustig.I've actually recently just finished his book on the subject "Metabolical"
Well worth a read imho.
Not a huge water fan but I do drink quite a lot these days.
I probably started drinking more in my earlier running days as hydration was crucial but I guess I'll always be a tea addict 😁
I average 12 cups of tea a day it's my only addiction, water has been a struggle for a long time but now I've found two that don't give me a headache if I drink them. I still only manage a litre a day but it's better than none at all.😁My sister got me hooked when she was having chemotherapy and started following Chris Beats Cancer, she has some fancy water machine and says the water is the best, she lives in America.
Haha, I'm probably similar with the daily cups of tea 😁I do also usually manage a couple of litres of plain water as well 🙂
Absolutely correct..it is a wonder they posted this..because usually any comments against the "school medicine" is usually removed..and we are not allowed to mention certain things..like the injections used for cov.....another unmentionable..excellent post about cholesterol
Thank you !I'll say no more 😁👍
Not medical advice , suggestions and opinions only:
I follow a KETO diet, I am not a great fan of Kendrick, here are my reasons:
1. Dr Malcolm Kendrick is a GP not a cardiovascular surgeon.
2. Yes the correlation between cholesterol and outcomes has not been scientifically proven. Causation and Correlation.
3. However Statins are Pleio-tropic they work on multiple fronts, they work on inflammation, and it is reducing this inflammation that slows the viscous cycle of exponential plaque growth, slows the growth of foam cells, and macrophages arriving at the lesion. Statins lower HS-CRP and CRP, please look these up if your unsure what these markers are. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/
4. Statins have also been shown to improve the health of the endothelial cells lining your arteries which helps to improve the quality of your arteries, and limit VSMC cell proliferation. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
5. Do I think Statins reduce heart attacks because they lower cholesterol, no I don't this is probably a side effect of Statins, but lowering the LDL cholesterol will help with cholesterol efflux and moving dense lipids out of the necrotic core of the lesion.
6. I follow Keto as well, but I prefer Ford Brewer/ Ivor Cummings over Malcolm Kendrick, as a scientist I find Kendrick glosses over the issues and his scientific explanations are lacking.
7. Budoff et al, found that in some people who followed Keto there LDL would skyrocket but they showed no signs of plaque in their arteries. This implies that high cholesterol does not lead directly to plaquing, but it doesn't matter as Statins work along multiple pathways. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/354...
8. Cholesterol is a repair building block for many parts of the body, but it is not considered an ideal repair building block for arteries.
9. Some people will respond to KETO some people will respond to WFPB, the only way to truly know is to test, CCA-IMT every year, CAC scan every 3 years. Following a program blindly could be damaging, there are documented cases of people moving to KETO and accelerating there plaque scores.
10. Unless your doing regular testing, planning, and optimisation, you shouldn't give up the most comprehensive and tested medicines like Statins , that would be a bad idea.
At a rough guess 70% of the studies out there are supportive of statin use, and 30% are not, including the Norweigian studies. Lowering cholesterol is probably not the main driver of CAD , it is probably more linked to Lipoprotein (a) and the size of the LDL particles you carry, nevertheless it is still an important driver, and allows cholesterol efflux to swing in the favour of sending more lipids back to the liver than arrive at the necrotic core.
There is a new medicine that has just been announced that targets Lipoprotein (a) levels in 2023 - v exciting
However many people are statin intolerant or have read the information and have decided to stop statins.Please do no just stop please have a comprehensive anti-plaquing program in place.
1. Medicines, change statins to PCSK9 inhibitors ( Inclinsiran), Ezetimibe , Bempedoic acid, fibrates,
2, Diet, Keto , WFPB , DASH, Mediterrean
3. Exercise
4. Supplements
A well-reasoned post, with robust references, not some professionals out to make a buck by selling a load of books based on a contrary view.
Disease progression is crucial after a heart attack, and - of course - diet is hugely important. Additionally, statins also stabalise plaque which is clearly present since you have had a heart attack.
It would be folly not to take them unless advised by professionals, and only if there are significant adverse effects: which there certainly can be in some people.
I'm sure in the future there will be medications that will reduce plaque buildup, but until then good diet and statins are the best defence against further build-up/rupture.
To the original poster, please make sure you get your references from peer-reviewed, reputable journals, not books, websites, and YouTube.
Thank you for your input and for clarity I have not suggested to anyone that they stop taking ANY medications, nor would I and I have certainly not even made my own mind up and I won't do without first discussing it with both my GP AND Cardiologist.
I simply asked in my original post if anybody has done so.
Statins may be able to stabilise plaque and
So can the combination of vitamins D3 and K2 (Mk7 preparation).
Actually not only stabilise it but have been shown to reduce it and promote elasticity in the arteries.
I agree a good diet is crucial but your statement that diet and statins are the best defence is an opinion,
Which you have every right to offer as do I
As for 'Telling' me where to quote references from , well I will quote them from where I get them from wherever that may be .
I am not hiding the sources of my information I am simply giving it in response to replies asking me to do so.
Whether you agree with them or not is your choice .
Have a nice day
Many thanks for your detailed response!I would like to pick up on your points if I may .
Firstly, yes you are correct, Dr Malcolm Kendrick is not a cardiovascular surgeon , looks like I pasted the qualifications of Cardiologist Dr Pradip Jamnadas twice !
I will absolutely edit that information so thank you .
I am interested to read you follow a Ketogenic diet, can I ask if you have suffered a heart attack or have CVD yourself?
I am certainly open to the idea of introducing more high quality animal and dairy fats to my diet but again this seems to go against the recommendations of a low fat regime ?
I would certainly be happy to hear your thoughts on that .
I have been low carb now for some time since my T2D diagnosis.
This along with intermittent fasting and my regular fitness regime has certainly turned my life around according to how I feel and all my subsequent blood tests .
Your point 3
Statins affect on inflammation.
Yes, maybe they do , however what would you consider is a big cause if inflammation ?
Hyperinsulinemia would be a suspect from what I understand so I would be more interested in removing causes .
Your point 4.
Statins help improve the quality of the arteries,
So has the the combination of vitamins D3 and K2 (Mk7 preparation)
Which I take with the blessing of both my GP and Cardiologist .
Point 5
Maybe you are right (I do not know)
But I'm certainly aware that it is the dence LDL particles that are an issue rather than the blanket statement that we are fed that HDL is the good and LDL is bad.
Item 6
I will look into Ford Brewer/ Ivor Cummings , thank you .
7.
Interesting!
I will look into this is more detail!
8.
Maybe not an ideal arterial repairer , I really would not know .
But what has been shown is that the brain needs cholesterol, for me this adds to my concern of taking Statins .
Point 9.
I would agree 100%
Point 10.
I have absolutely no intention of just abandoning Statins on a whim , I agree this would be rather foolish.
My original post was simply to gather more insight, I it certainly appears to have given me more food for thought .
Again, thank you for you time taken in your reply .... Very much appreciated 👍
Could you point me to the source(s) that show D3 and K2 (Mk7 preparation) reduce plaque and increase elasticity, please. I’m very interested!
So you now want me to supply you with what in your words you have just described in another response as "Just any old bit of published information"Interesting!
No, I was - perhaps incorrectly - expecting links to journal papers?
Sorry, but I'm not "Playing your game"If you are seriously interested then check out Cardiologist Dr Pradip Jamnadas , he had a presentation that covers what I have said about mk7 and he quotes the papers in his presentation.....
Do the research like I did !
I’m a research scientist, and review the literature daily. I don’t see any peer reviewed science that supports your claims.
I’m a reasonable guy, and could have missed papers, so if you could provide me with one doi, I would really appreciate it.
I have given you the means of getting to the information that you are now suspiciously asking me for, even though you have already dismissed it as "Any old bit of published information"
I'm also surprised that as a research scientist dismiss it before even seeing it 🤔
But seeing as you are not prepared to search yourself, here you are
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
Thank you for that. It's impossible to have a sensible conversation without us both discussing the same literature!
I have a few questions on that specific article:
1. Do you realise it is a commercial trial by NattoPharma?
2. What do you think of their sample set (n=244)?
3. What do you think of them using NattoPharma's MenaQ7® as the only source of K2?
4. The references don't appear to show any reversal of disease in humans, but preventative measure for healthy people does seem clear.
5. This particular reference is very tenuous! onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...
Nonetheless, it is an interesting article. It's certainly not one that I would be basing any medical treatment on. For example, there is no investigation into any potential negative effects, and the sample set...
In terms of statins, I stopped the first 2 that I was given due to unpleasant side effects. I did this without discussion with my consultant. After my CABGx3, I discussed with the Cardiologist and had the benefits very clearly explained; also with the need to try and find a medication that I could tolerate. At that point it thought I should inform myself and, after reviewing the literature, realised that it made complete sense to find a statin that worked for me.
I'll leave you with the following article, which I think is pertinent to your original post:
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
I appreciate your response and will digest it in full later (I'm currently in the dentist waiting room😐)Incidentally, the link I sent you was not the study referred to by Dr Pradip Jamnadas, I don't have a direct link to the studies he quotes but I can certainly send you a link to his presentation where he quotes them if you are interested?
The link I sent was a robust bit of research which takes into account management of patients who have difficulty tolerating statins.
It has a lot of very good quality information in it.
I'll research Dr Jamnadas and see what I find.
Here you are .... I'll help your search 😁youtu.be/z3njgh2nFRk?si=mx7...
Thank you, I was hoping for it not to be a YouTube video as there is so much terrible information on it. I'm particularly suspicious of people who have no research background, but are making a fortune out of YouTube channels.
That said, I see he references thoroughly in his description, so will go in with an open mind and work my way through them.
What I have to be careful with is I want it to be a breakthrough, but I need to be objective!
Pleased to hear you will view with an open mind ....As that's exactly my approach to my situation .
Here are details of his clinic .
orlandocvi.com/medical-prov....
Looks very Lionel Hutz!
Also, all of his references are will over 10 years old, some over 20. Mostly full on "may" and "possibly" in their conclusions.
I would have expected him to have found further, more recent, research that has lead on from these findings.
I'd give this guy a very wide berth!
Oh, he's a sneaky one! In under a minute in he cherry picks the following information:
"Compared with the lowest quartile, the third quartile of total dietary and dairy calcium intake had a significantly reduced MI risk."
He claims that to be for K2. Click through on the link and you will find out that the paper is actually talking about calcium.
He doesn't even try to hide it, he shows the image alongside him which clearly states calcium. The disdain these people have for their viewers is stunning 
Furthermore, here is what it concludes:
" Increasing calcium intake from diet might not confer significant cardiovascular benefits, while calcium supplements, which might raise MI risk, should be taken with caution. "
Please, please be very careful with these people. They know the vast majority of their viewers will not read the literature. This results in anyone who calls the "expert" out in the comments being immediately jumped on by their disciples.
Complete charlatans making an absolute fortune out of the huge YouTube views that, sadly, misinformation gains.
I'm sorry, I'm probably coming across as difficult here, but I can't just sit back and let this potentially damaging misinformation go unchallenged. I am trying to be helpful.
You can be as challenging as you like....It doesn't worry me 😁
My post was not meant to try and convince anyone away from their own views, and I accept your views are as valid as the next person's .
All I have done here is to ask a simple question in the title of my original post .
If people (including yourself) then wish to comment on it then that's fine!
I will listen (as I always do)
I will then offer my views only in response!
I am not for 1 second attempting to steer anyone away from their own personal views or opinions.
And as such you will not achieve steering me away from mine.
My results in my recovery so far and acknowledged by my medical team are enough for me to continue in my present direction and take in as much information as I can bear to handle .
But please accept this is MY journey, MY health and MY recovery of which I am totally happy with.
I'll stick to your original post now. Yes, I've twice taken myself off statins, once with GP approval, once without. They were disturbing my sleep and clarity of thinking. I guess I am one of the unlucky ones.
Rosuvastatin seems to be working for me, although I do need to have a follow up blood test to check it's not messing up my kidneys!
I wholly agree with, and admire, your lifestyle. It's absolutely the way to reduce all the risks
I apologise for jumping in on the other things, but there are some very dangerous people out there, and I'm big enough and ugly enough to take the flak from their disciples when calling them out!
No worries, And no apologies necessary.
And thank you for finally answering my original post !
It's a minefield, and unlike you, i am not a research scientist.
But what I am is an ordinary guy who suffered a heart attack age 66 and ended up with 3 stents and quickly followed by a T2D diagnosis .
The initial stage of my recovery was pretty much self led as I had no valuable rehab at first other than being told over the phone to go out and walk !
Yeah, thanks for that invaluable advice local rehab ! 😐
I did then however get onto the hospital (New cross, Wolverhampton) who treated me (not near where I live) and they were brilliant, just as they were when I was in there .
I have nothing but praise for the team there both medical and re hab.
Anyway they put me on an online rehab course which I wanted to do and then having completed it, it gave me access to a more local gym based course .
It really took to it and have continued up to the present day by renewing my membership.
I go 2 but ideally 3 times a week .
I have lost over 3 stone with dietary changes and intermittent fasting .
(Encouraged by Pradip Jamnadas and Jason Fung and others INCLUDING my GP.
My T2D is in Remission and my glucose levels and insulin responce is inline with someone who has never had diabetes.
And I am convinced that the beta cells in my pancreas are either recovered or recovering.
I wear a CGM to monitor the affects of foods that I eat
And I can honestly say I have not felt better for several years .
I put a lot of this down to my own perseverance in seeking out as much information as I can and then I can at least make informed choices .
You may not give this much precidence but the boditrax analyser in my local gym now gives me a metabolic age of 52 .
I was 67 on Jan 3
Both my weight and BMI are now in what is considered the 'Healthy' range, my waist circumference is now for the first time in many years less than half my height (a other marker for metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance ,T2D and CVD)
So all in all I feel I am in the best place I can be considering the last 11 months.
But I shall continue to learn and hopefully keep moving forward 🤞
Having read a lot of replies to your original post, I am most amused by the can of worms you have opened, you seem to have done a vast amount of research into the effects of statins. Anyway I might just as well add my 10 cents worth. I stopped taking statins after a few months. I have an aortic aneurysm which I have refused surgery for. The statin was prescribed on diagnosis of the aneurysm, by the gp not the cardiologist , after that I had no contact with the gp to check if it was doing its job or if indeed it suited me. I got some side effects and felt so bad I took the attitu de that it wouldn't cure my aneurysm or give me any benefit other than potentially extending my life, but what is the point if you feel dreadful. I do take the opinion that it is a 'one size fits all' and that once you reach a certain age it is a standard treatment. At least now I know any symptoms I have are related to my condition not my medication. The lack of follow up when you are on a prescribed medication is appalling. I still have not seen a gp since my diagnosis two years ago, other than for the covid jabs!
OK, so Dr Jamnadas isn't an active researcher, indeed it appears that he never has been not having a PhD.
Not to say he isn't a competent practitioner, but he doesn't appear to have done any research at an point in his career.
Well written and well thought out response.I do feel certain responders on here take certain responses and questions to a ridiculous degree, maybe I'm stupid/foolish, or as is our right have my own opinions instead of being influenced by other people's over reactive responses.
Let's play nicely please😁
I've a research science background, and it's very, very important to filter out what is valid research and what isn't.
It would be unkind of me not to point out flawed, or biased "research" when I have the skills to do so.
It's so easy to latch on to things that we want to be true, but very often it can be damaging to us.
On the balance of probabilities you maybe right and you are entitled to your opinion.
I don't base my decisions on opinion. We can all have our opinions, but we can't have our own facts.
As seductive as a lot of Internet information is, I stick to rigorous, quality, peer reviewed publications.
I'm sure you're probably right and I applaud your rigorous information sharing.Now let's park it right there!
Always play nicely here 😁
Thanks for your warm and curious reply.
Not medical advice, suggestions and opinions only.
Digging this deep we are on the cutting edge here with some disagreement amongst models and processes, so in my own words:
I am certainly open to the idea of introducing more high quality animal and dairy fats to my diet but again this seems to go against the recommendations of a low fat regime ?
1. There is no unifying theory of science, we often use 2 models that are incongruent and out of phase, but for our models both work well and we can harness the outcomes. We can use wave theory for one application and particle theory for another but we cannot apply them at the same time.
If you are going to follow KETO then you are expecting to follow the KETO model of science, and reap the benefits of this model and confirm by testing.
If you are going to follow WFPB then you are expecting to follow the WFPB model of science and reap the benefits of the model and confirm by testing.
The theories can't be applied at the same time.
3. Hyperinsulinemia would be a suspect from what I understand so I would be more interested in removing causes .
Inflammation is a big topic, if you suffer from pre-diabetes or diabetes, leading onto metabolic x syndrome, then this is going to be the most important factor driving your inflammation, at this point it is serious and must be addressed , this situation often termed the spiral of death because of the cyclic nature of the onslaught it releases in your body. This links into being fat , fat is not an inert substance it secretes toxins that drive up inflammation.
Let's call this type of inflammation systemic body inflammation.
That being said Oral Glucose Tests are not the best type of test for diabetes and pre-diabetes, the best test is an insulin response test, however measuring insulin directly from the blood, you need more advanced equipment which NHS Labs don't have, so they use Oral Glucose Testing, probably if an Oral Glucose Test says you have pre-diabetes your probably already have diabetes.
Now if your diabetic and you lose a lot of weight and you reverse your diabetes then you will have driven down your inflammation levels which should be evident in a blood panel.
However your inflammation levels maybe low, but they are not totally resolved, chemical reactions in your body are producing toxins all the time, redox reactions producing ROS, Reactive Oxygen Species, plus daily doses of radiation it all combines. Your inflammation levels for the most part can always be lowered further.
Now this hypothetical person has had diabetes and the diabetes has done its damage in the coronary arteries, a lesion has been created, plaque has developed and can be measured. 50 years of the Standard Anglo Diet has done its damage.
By the age of 55, 73% of the UK population has confirmed CAD with CAC greater than 10, by the time this is measurable its already in the end stages of dense calcium strata, and a lot of that 73% are people who think they are living healthily, and exercising a lot.
So now the lesion exists in your coronary artery, this will now lead to localised artery inflammation, what do we mean by this, as the endothelial lining of the artery degrades it starts emitting all kinds of nasty and pro inflammatory chemicals and cytokines , thromboxane , IL-5. All adding to local inflammation and spurring on the vicious exponential cycle of plaque formation, the body reads these inflammation signals and sends the bodies repair instruments to the plaque site, the macrophages, the macrophages become overwhelmed by the situation trapped by cholesterol and debris, they turn into foam cells and emit more inflammation signals for more macrophages, and the self destruction continues.
So even though by correcting the overall systemic inflammation , which is great a massive plus, and it will certainly help, you have this ongoing local inflammation.
Therefore if you already have great blood work, you can take advantage of Statins to drive your inflammation levels even further to very low levels.
At this point, things get interesting at extremely low levels of inflammation the body the lesions enter a new state, at which everything slows down and now the macrophages arriving at the site have the time and space to their intended job and shovel off the VLDL from the cell walls, the plaque progression begins to halt and in some cases is even reversed. In someone with extremely low levels of inflammation the Macrophages arrive at the site as M2 macrophages instead of M1 Macrophages which is beneficial.
and I think we will leave it there for today, oh and it doesn't have to be statins that slow down the local inflammation process.
What was your major concern with Statins?
CAC Graph
Many thanks again for taking the time on such a detailed response 👍I have read with interest if not completly understanding 😁
However I will work my way through it again and again to better that understanding !
May I ask what is your background and/or involvement in this field ?
In the meantime, whilst I'm taking time to understand your reply more fully, you ask what my major concern is with Statins .
Well, that's really to do with the affect on the Brain by having lower cholesterol levels in the body , so it's possible contribution to the earlier onset of dementia to name one .
But I am also very sceptical as always about what we are told and why we are told it ...
When we are talking about the colossal amounts of money being made by the major Pharma's , I feel it unwise just to accept on face value what we are told , I was about to say , even by government agencies ..
Where what I actually mean is ESPECIALLY by government agencies 🤔😁
Well said! We are what we eat, and while it is difficult to determine what we are eating when we dine out, we only buy organic meat, buy organic vegetables when they are available (unsuccessfully trying to grow our own vegetables as well, some success with potatoes) and only buy salmon and other fish which have been caught in its natural environment rather than farmed. This comes at a cost, and families struggling financially are forced down the processed route. 20 years ago, when I moved, I had a welcoming triage session to establish my baselines then around a week later received a brown envelope in the post with nothing in it but a prescription for Simvastatin! I queried this, was told I had high cholesterol. Asked for my reading and this came out (in those days only total was given) at 4.8. I pointed out to this surgery that my Cardiac Rehab nurses had stated that the normal range was 4.0 - 5.5 so I did not have high cholesterol. I disposed of the prescription and changed surgeries and am very much still alive - my last reading around 5 years ago was only 5.2. I also enjoy grapefruit, which is something you cannot eat on statins.
I took statins for 20 years to achieve a lipid level of between 5 to 5.5, just like your level, and I too was very much alive throughout that period. Then I had a completely unexpected heart attack which, I suspect, happens to most victims. Turns out most of my heart arteries were moderate to severely blocked. I now take the max dose of statin plus, at my request , ezetimibe and my lipid levels are under 4. You can have the best diet going, organic, fresh, lots of veg, low fat etc etc but if your body produces excess lipids, it seems to me that you are at risk from arteriosclerosis and with that the risk of a stroke or a heart attack, which is what the guidance is all about. And the current recommended max for total cholesterol is now 4.5 , down from 5.5, and even further down from 6 when I started taking statins years ago.
Totally agree.
Thank you !But yes, it's an absolute minefield trying to navigate through all the information out there .
But I am absolutely sold on the opinion that processed foods are responsible for so many problems.
Interestingly at the time of my heart attack my cholesterol was at a level that would have been considered "Normal" 3.4 if I remember correctly!
But my "Real food" journey has been and continues to be challenging..
I'm a little more relaxed with carbs now but still try to eliminate or have very small amounts of simple carbohydrates.
But I was even stricter until I had my blood glucose under control .
I'm in full T2D Remission now but wear a continuous glucose monitor for my own interest as to my glucose levels and the affect that various foods have .
I am now below pre diabetic levels and absolutely normal , both my GP and diabetic nurse have been amazed with my achievements.
In fact they put on my records that the "patient is in Remission for type 2 diabetes and has an extremely good understanding of the disease and follows a very strict suitable diet"
But actually, yes, I'd love the occasional grapefruit for breakfast 😁
Totally agree with you on this, and very impressed with your discipline!
We really need to cut down on processed food, carbs, and sugar. They are surely at the root of a lot of conditions.
Thank you so much good information. Its a question I have often wondered myself .
Keep searching 🙂👍
Hi Ian, just joined this forum to answer your question, the doctor put me on statins about 20 years ago as my cholesterol was bit too high, they are the only medication I am on, I havn't had any problems with taking them, even for a week when I was off them when I new packet was a week late.
Hi Alan, good to hear from you !Hope you are well ?
Yes it is a very common occurrence for GP's to prescribe Statins at the drop of a hat these days (imho)
I accept that they 'Can' have their uses in certain situations.
But I feel they are actually needed far less than we are led to believe.
I have my thoughts as to why this may be but probably not good for me to air those views here !
There were discussions about whether everyone over the age of 50 should take statins, however, that hasn't happened, I am feeling very well thanks, I ran my 100th parkrun recently.
Hi, yes Al, I am aware of those discussions.Yes, good to hear of your park run total , very well done 👍
I'm still running, usually 2 or 3x a week but at the moment it's gym based during my fitness training..
I will be road running again hopefully with the improvement of the weather 😁
Air away😎
I stopped taking my statin as in my opinion it was causing joint and muscle pain and preventing me from excercising. So i came off it and started walking 10000-6000 steps a day. Lo and behold my heart faulire was reassessed as minor impairment from moderate and before that severe. My decision not the doctor.
Well done !Regular excercise has certainly played a big part in your recovery as it has in mine .
I do similar steps , have a very strict diet and a fair share of gym work ..
At present still on the Statins but intend to have conversations about them soon with both my GP and Cardiologist.
Best wishes !
I’ve kept taking the statins because they don’t seem to give me any side effects, the aspirin because that’s not doing any harm either and may be doing some good, stopped the bisoprolol because of a low resting heart rate and clopidogrel after twelve months as suggested. Haven’t seen any doctors since my heart attack in March 2021. No cardiac rehab either. The emergency care was brilliant. The post op non existent.
Thank you !My Statins don't appear to be giving me side affects either ,
My questions are more about Kong term hidden complications that the "May" contribute to .
It's a conversation for my next GP and Cardiologist appointment.
And I was taken off bisoprolol also my HR was also becoming ridiculously low.
Also causing more instability in my blood pressure,
My diastolic was dropping very low
I'm still on low BP meds but my BP is now constantly stable within the "Ideal" range .
Best wishes with your continued health 🙏
Clearly for some people lifestyle changes will be sufficient to avoid further heart problems, especially if you have headroom to make them. In my case I was already very, very fit, eating pretty well and had never smoked. In fact I was racing bicycles with a 90% + LAD blockage, unknown to me...
After my HA, the only way I was reasonably going to control my cholesterol was through statins. But I have a friend who went to an extreme low-fat diet (Esselstyn) and lowered his cholesterol significantly (although not to the point where a high-risk individual should be). I tried it for a month but it was brutally hard (but did see some improvement on top of statins).
My perspective as someone who was briefly clinically dead before being revived by a stranger who gave me CPR is that I want to do everything to avoid that happening again, including taking medication that's been proven to reduce risk. I know that heart disease is progressive and almost never reversible; thus I could live with warning signs that I might need more stents or bypasses -- but I don't want to just keel over stone cold the way I did in April 2021. I'm basically trying to buy time, and I am convinced statins will help.
Some of your comments reflect my situation from the time I was diagnosed with a cholesterol of over 9. I was fit, exercised regularly, probably more than most of my age, I had a good varied healthy diet, mostly home cooked and not much pre-processed food, and was not overweight. My GP recommended statins but I decided that' lifestyle' measures would work. And so after a few months of an awful miserable diet and other measures during which my lipids dropped to 6.5 then went back up to 8 as life got in the way, I started on statins, and my lipids dropped to 5.0 to 5.5 which was much better, although still high by today's recommendations. And that was that, although my lipids are now lower since my statin dose was increased. The group recommending 'you can do it through lifestyle measures so don't take statins' often forget that our physiology doesn't change, and if you adopt life style measures to get a better lipid profile and it works you have to keep at it, for life, and as you get older some of the things you need to do are simply not possible. Typically I used to run for fun, run around a football pitch, cycle for miles, play squash, and go to the gym, but unfortunately I can no longer do those sort of things, bad knees and a dodgy hip have now got in the way, which is why statins are a life necessity for me, in conjunction with the life style measures I can comfortably achieve.
Furthermore, the science shows that statins do help. We need to be careful where some of this thread is heading. Hints of pseudoscience creeping in (not in your post, I hasten to add!).
Well i noticed within 3 weeks of taking atorvastatin i had worsened joint and muscle pain to the point i just kept movement to a minimum. Stopped taking them. Walked regularly and lo and behold my heart function was reassessed as minor impairment, and i got discharged from the cardiac service. Good old pseudoscience.
That's not pseudoscience, it's anecdotal. Your joint and muscle pain are also known side effects from statins, either real, or as part of the nocebo effect.
I had to try 3 different statins until I found one that agreed with me.
The body of rigorous scientific research is large on statins, and if you can tolerate them, then they will play a significant part in slowing disease progression.
The following article is a particularly good read. Peer reviewed and in a reputable journal.
Many thanks for your response!I was running 3x a week prior to my heart attack..
5k, 10 k was my favourite distance and also managed 14k on a couple of occasions.
I was however overweight and an ex smoker .
I stopped smoking when I was 40, now 67
My heart attack Like many others came as a complete shock to me and I needed to be shocked during the first intervention to fit my first stent .
Off the top of my head I don't remember the % blockage to the lad.
I'm sure we are all trying to do our best to prevent this happening again .
On my part that has been considerable diet improvements , intermittent fasting and generally a more complete fitness regime rather than just running.
I have no doubt that Statins will reduce cholesterol, my doubt however is whether Colesterol is really the bad guy we are/have been led to believe.
I intent to stay on them untill at least I have had the opportunity to discuss further with my GP and Cardiologist.
And am certainly NOT advocating anyone should do otherwise.
Some will a d some won't .
Personally I want as much information as I can get to help me make my choice.
Thank you for your perspective and best wishes for continued health 🙏
As to whether cholesterol is the culprit: The answer, as in most things in life is: It depends. My issue seems to be high levels of Lipoprotein A and a lack of HDL cholesterol. I think had I known earlier about Lp(A) and been a little more proactive about controlling my LDL cholesterol (it was on the high end of normal, then at some point it edged over into high).
Obviously, many, many people with high cholesterol levels don't have heart issues. But what all the research I've seen indicates is that across populations, high cholesterol is a risk factor for coronary artery disease. Along with lifestyle, diet and genetics. If there are studies that show otherwise, I'd love to see them. Here's a study, for example, of over 1 million people that found that it is a risk factor: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/270...
Yes, statins had too many side effects for me.
The Great cholesterol con is quite a claim , I’m all for doing our best naturally, thought I was doing great prior to my Nstemi and quadruple CABG in July. Only 5 months down the line I’m back to running , achieved 5k 3 times since December , got a 6k under my belt last week. Back to twice weekly yoga strenuous vinyasa flow , lifting weights and working round our smallholding. A few changes in nutrition on top. Excellent cholesterol readings and liver function , blood pressure on point , great resting heart rate. I’m still on a cocktail of drugs , some have been tweaked down, now on 1.25mg bisoprolol plus a half of 2.25mg Rampiril. Clopidogrel, pantaprazole, aspirin and 80mg of arvovastatin.
I’m not sure about sacking meds off in the face of a medic writing a book. If there was more research , better research I’m sure the protocols would change. I’ve egg got one job to do , keep my new pipes clear . I would like to see a reduction on my meds and see if it has any impact on how I feel. I am pretty physical on a daily basis and tend to have plenty of aches and pains , not sure I can totally point it at my statin though.
I’m always wary of controversial huge claims that then get shown to have been based potentially flawed research . Bit like the Netflix Game Changer , produced by someone who had invested heavily on a pea protein business .
I do hope the research continues into statins 👍🏻
Here’s the BHF thoughts on it .
bhf.org.uk/informationsuppo...
Sounds like you have made great progress, well done ..I'm also running again I re did Couch to 5 k a while ago now , all blood tests back to normal and type 2 diabetes in remission
And I agree, I am not for one minute thinking of just binning meds 🙂
However, my learnings are not based on just reading a book 🙂
Stay healthy 🙏
Update .. now on my 3rd statin , 10mg of Rosuvastatin and after a week I’m getting joint/muscle pain, dry mouth , a bit of fatigue and brain fog , blood pressure dropped from 115/75 to 100/60 by 4pm yesterday , wiped out. Gutted if this continues.. GP said the statin shouldn’t lower BP and it must be a reaction/interaction of the meds .. 🤷.. Constant dry mouth too , feels like a hangover all the time ..
Good post. People need to be very careful that they read peer reviewed science and not just any old bit of published information.
Thanks for the debate. I stopped statins because I thought I had side effects but now think it could be caused by something else, a blood pressure medication. I read the anti statin literature and thought there was a coherent case but not well presented in terms of medical evidence. I can critique other drugs, specifically psychiatric drugs, because I have read lots of convincing studies that are well put together in an easy to digest manner but the anti statin case although coherent was not well enough presented for me to make an informed decision about.
Mistakes in medicine are made, drug companies do have influence over prescribing and if you want to make independent decisions sorting the wheat from the chaff is difficult, laborious and a skilled job.
I am reviewing my decision around statins so this discussion is important to me.
I think if you're unsure about any possible side effects they are causing, then you need to be very methodical and absolutely guided by Consultant or GP. It's very important to only change one thing at a time, diet and lifestyle included.
I consulted several medical practitioners including consultants, about three GP's and a cardiac rehab nurse over the last 7 months. Its only in the last month has an out of hours GP actually looked at my feet and diagnosed odema possibly caused by a blood pressure drug. I have asked my GP practice to investigate which they will do at the end of the month. I am hoping the blood pressure med will be reduced or changed in February, if that doesn't happen I will ask my cardiac rehab nurse to write a letter to my GP as she seems on top of the drugs and their potential side effects.
Hi Instructor, a great talking point.
Can you please share any sources you are quoting from. I have done a fair bit of research (Dr Google) and have read a few papers online. They all point to statins being the best combative drug.
I'm constantly considering should I or shouldn't I, and recently stopped the bisop, but amazingly suffered a few dangerous withdrawal symptoms. As I'm abroad, I thought I would go back on them till I get home. So I'm not adverse to doing my own thing, but prefer to read the info beforehand.
Yes, it certainly appears to have got people fired up in some cases 😁A lot of my thinking comes from the following:
Dr Michael Moseley.
Cardiovascular surgeon Dr Pradip Jamnadas.
Dr Malcolm Kendrick.
Nephrologist Dr Jason Fung.
Dr Robert H. Lustig pediatric endocrinologist.
Dr Mark Hyman.
To name but a few.
Edited mistake !
Dr Malcolm Kendrick is a GP not a cardiovascular surgeon.
Instructor57 I see those sources you cite, and I have looked into many of them. What I would say is be wary of doctors who promote themselves aggressively with claims that seem too good to be true. The flashier the website, the more YouTube subscribers, the less I trust them...that's just me.
For instance, for every Fung (a nephrologist, not a cardiologist or a researcher) there are probably 10,000 cardiologists and 100,000 dieticians who would dispute his claims about low carbs and high fat. Again, sure, you can always find examples of this or that in our world of 7 billion people, but that is not good science.
Believe me, as someone who nearly died from heart disease and is walking around with 4 stents and reduced ejection fraction, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to find that there is a tried and tested magic bullet -- preferably natural, preferably not from Big Pharma -- that would somehow guarantee that I won't have another HA.
Does science have all the answers? Of course not. But that's not how the scientific method works. You test a hypothesis with rigor, you reject it if it's not the case, you keep going if the data supports it. But that's not how these "gurus" like Fung work.
I've been sucked into this before. I tried the Ornish/Esselstyn ultra low fat diet, and, yeah, it lowered my cholesterol somewhat. Like Fung et al, they make elaborate claims that you can even reverse coronary artery disease on their diet plans (and they, too, are happy to sell you cookbooks or personalized advice at their clinics). But there's only a SINGLE study of about 50 people that backs up Ornish's claims, for example. He's built an entire industry on that study!
Obviously this is something I feel passionately about. It's not a personal response to your skepticism about cholesterol, so please don't take it that way.
Thank you for your reply .And please be assured I do not take your comments as a 'Personal' responce .
As I have re iterated many times in this thread , I'm simply gathering people's thoughts and opinions.
I'm fully aware of Jason Fungus credentials and yes I know he is a Nephrologist.
And tbh, had it not been for him, and Dr Pradip Jamnadas (who btw runs an extremely successful cardiovascular intervention clinic in Florida)
Had it not been for all of theses individuals then I would probably not have brought my type 2 diabetes into Remission nor have the understanding of the disease that I have now .
My GP surgery has actually now amended my medical records with the comments in the attached picture.
I know had it been down to my GP surgery and diabetic clinic alone, I would not have achieved this , or certainly in the timescale I did .
Both my GP an diabetic clinic have been amazed at these results infact my diabetic nurse suggested I come and talk to their patients!
This is of course to do with my diabetes diagnosis and my research into Statins and their affects is at a much earlier stage , hence my initial post .
Also, I have NEVER heard any of these people claim they can reverse CAD and if they had then my scepticism in their claims would certainly have been a warning flag to me .
Perhaps you can steer me to where you have seen Fung make these claims as having read much of his work I have never come across that claim ?
My CAD also nearly killed me !
I needed defibrillation in theatre during my intervention ,
I now have 3 stents
The whole experience (as I'm sure it was for many) has absolutely changed me both physically, mentally and emotionally and I will continue to do what I can to make my decisions based on a lot of research .
I'm certainly NOT being 'Sucked' into anything.
All my thoughts will be carefully considered and discussed with my GP and Cardiologist
Many thank ....
I wish you well 🙏
.
People here only ever ask for sources so that they can discredit the source rather than discuss the data presented. I recognise most of the sources you quote, and some of them put across really interesting arguments, and are abreast of the current science, which is more than can be said for a cardiologist following NICE guidelines and a nutritionist promoting the Eatwell guide. Many are ignorant to the fact that the medical recommendation on smoking lagged scientific research by at least 50 years. The same is happening now with the lipid heart hypothesis which the medical profession promotes.
Thank you for your response and views, many of which we probably share 👍
I was dissapointed with the advice I got from my GP practice when I got T2 diabetes. The nurse was lovely and they did lots of tests and I now have stage 3 kidney disease and high blood pressure for which I take ramipril. However it was a friend who suggested I look into Roy Taylors work at Newcastle University and not the nurse or anyone at the GP practice. I quickly went on a crash diet of 600 - 800 calories a day for 6 weeks, lost 11 kg and reversed my diabetes. I think I am likely to have still had it if I had followed the GP practice advice and that might have bought on my heart problems sooner.
Although low carb diets are a fairly popular approach for diabetics who do their own research I wonder if in fact its the weight loss that worked for you? I also wonder if the change in diet works because people are more aware of what they eat and as they do that they eat less? The research on low carb outcomes is mixed as far as my brief research says and the research on diets is that the majority fail, people put the weight back on, however a big health scare was motivating for me and it motivated you to change lots of things too.
I'm pleased your approach worked for you with your T2D I did not count calories at all , well actually not strictly true , I not only went low carb, I used internment fasting and actually made sure I was taking in sufficient calories during my eating window .
It's not so much about what you eat as when you eat (or more importantly, don't)
Intermittent fasting is a well accepted method of reducing insulin levels .
And so is low carb .
Personally I'm not a fan of crash diets , or diets in general .
I find it very easy now to maintain my weight with just 1 day of IF occasionally just to keep my insulin sensitivity good .
Which I can see from the data from my CGM .
All my blood tests are now stable within normal ranges .
But yes, as you say .. it's amazing what a big health scare can do for motivation!
I am not a fan of any diet usually but I did the crash diet at Prof Taylor said it was tolerated by his patients and quick. Six weeks of feeling hungry was not long to live through especially with a definite aim in site and as Proff Taylor says if you feel hungry feel grateful as you are loosing fat and probably reversing the diabetes. Since them my weight has been stable and so was my HB1Ac till after the angina when it raised to pre-diabetic levels. I don't know what is going on there. If it continues to be high I might have to lower my carbs which as cake lover and jam maker I'd prefer not to do.
Haha, I was also a cake lover 😁I did a lot of baking for many years .
Also made lots of jams and marmalade 😁
Infact it Seville time now but I won't be making 😔
What about nattokinase ? ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... study on 1062 human patients taking 10,800FU per days showed a significant reduction in atherosclerosis plaque !
Fung 🤦🏼 and Tom Spectre £££. Even Mosley does my head in, he should live forever with the claims and stuff he promotes now 🤣…
Definitely something going on when I take my statins, I’m on a 3rd one , low dose 10mg and the aches and pains, brain fog, dry mouth , cold , zombie episodes and drop in blood pressure returned after a week.GP thinks it’s the interaction of drugs as the statin shouldn’t lower my BP to from 118/75 to 100/60 by 4pm.. 🤷
hi there. I’m on a plethora of drugs due to an extensive cardiac history (which I won’t go into now but you could read my bio if you wanted to) However, I am also on a drug called Repatha. It is an injection in the form of a pen which you inject into your stomach once a fortnight. It has worked miracles in bringing all aspects of my cholesterol back to an acceptable level. It is probably a post code lottery as to whether it is available everywhere and I was told that to be eligible, you need to have had a cardiac event of some sort. So, without getting into the debate on the requirement for statins or not, this is a possible alternative you could discuss if you did need something at some point?
Many thanks for this , I have heard of this but must admit I do not know much about it but as you say, perhaps worth asking about at my next appointment.Thank you !
That sounds amazing , did you not do well on statins ? I’m on my 3rd , 10 mg Rosuvastatin and only been on it a week and already I ache , brain fog , feel cold , dry mouth constantly blood pressure dropped from 115/75 to 100/60 by 4pm and I was wiped out .. was on 80 mg artovastatin then 40mg Pravastatin, they all triggered the same, was having zombie episodes.
Good Morning
You have probably written elsewhere what problems you feel the statins are causing you, apologies for not knowing.
I would suggest you tread very warily. I have high cholesterol found accidentally decades ago. I was convinced I could change diet and lifestyle to sort this. I was blaming myself thinking somehow I was doing everything wrong. I was at the time around 40, active, with a dog I walked everyday, not remotely overweight , not eating processed food, going to gym classes twice a week. I wanted to avoid medication and was prepared to work at it.
I got very thin and I did a lot of exercise. But basically my cholesterol stayed high. I kept having regular check ups and when I moved I managed to go to a lipid clinic in a major hospital. Even there the Dr said hang on to 60 to start statins. (I’m female and apparently hormones are relatively protective until they are not). But then my son, in his 20s was also found to have high cholesterol.
Suddenly having a younger direct family member with high cholesterol made a difference to how I was perceived. I was sent for a carotid artery scan. I did have a higher level of thickening than the average woman of my age.
So for years I had been paying attention to my food, drink and lifestyle but still I had above average risk.
This convinced me to take statins. I still eat carefully and I’m only on a low dose. My cholesterol is ok without being perfect. I would rather not take a higher dose if I don’t have to.
Interestingly I had to stop statins for a number of months as I had to take a different med that interacted. The cholesterol shot back up again! (Statins are not addictive and you don’t get any withdrawal other than cholesterol going back up!)
If your GP is amenable maybe you could ask about your risks, whether you could have other investigations/tests, whether you could take a statin every other day or a lower dose or whatever. But I would caution against doing anything rash. You have just returned to health and fitness and it would be such a shame to put that back.
Do you take VitaminD?
Best Wishes…tell us what you do next. I’m interested and understand your desire to not rely on meds.
I wish my mother in law had taken medication. My father in law is dead set against doctors etc. my mother in law died of sudden cardiac arrest at 69 in her case unmedicated high BP. Despite trying to manage her health with diet etc. she was an amazing kind person gone way too soon. My husband had a stemi from plaque rupture. After loosing his mom over what could have been preventable he is taking prescribed meds and so far doing well. Ef hasn’t really improved. 35% estimated by cardiologist but 48% calculated by Simpson method Cholesterol well under upper limits
Thank you for your reply!I always tread warily 😁
I certainly have no intention of just taking myself of any medication without prior discussion and possibly agreement from both my cardiologist and GP.
For me it's more a cause of I'm not totally sold on the idea that Colesterol is actually the bad guy .
I feel that it not quite that simple .
I'm more intune to the thinking that other markers need more attention.
The markers for Metabolic syndrome is an area where I'm certainly becoming more aware of and interested in .
Many of these markers tend to be early warnings of many metabolic diseases, including CVD and T2D to name a couple .
I would certainly suggest anyone interested in finding out more about this to take a look at the works of people like Dr Pradip Jamnadas, Dr Jason Fung and Dr Robert Lustig.
I wish you continued health 🙏
I have stopped taking them after just a few weeks, primarily because in my view they are handed out as a standard response to heart issues. In my case there is no proof that I have either cholesterol or plaque problems. I strongly object to ‘just in case’ medications, and always try to wean myself off drugs wherever possible. If I didn’t I’d be eating a bowlful of meds every day, and suffering all kinds of unpleasant side effects.
I have occasionally been invited to medication reviews at a local chemist. At these I am asked whether I think I should still be on particular drugs. Well I’m really not qualified to answer that question, but I have never, ever, been taken off a drug by a GP. It seems that medications, like dogs, are for life.
My GP stopped my beta blockers as they were making me like a zombie and the angina meds I was given "as a precaution". I've never had angina; in fact they diagnosed angina in hospital last October again but after I complained they decided I "probably "didn't have it. My GP initially had to change every single tablet I'd been given because of side effects and after a year had stopped absolutely everything except the statin and aspirin and famotidine to protect stomach from the aspirin. My BP is very slowly creeping up slightly but not yet a concern. HA was now 5 years ago.
Totally agree with your views on the "Standard response to heart attacks"When I was given my bag of medication on leaving hospital I was told "You will likely need these for life"
Not sure why but my humour kicked in at that point and I replied "In that case I would have liked to have seen a bigger bag" 🤔
Two examples. (1) A top cardiac surgeon obviously having read the same stuff you are reading decided to stop his own statin intake as they were not needed in his new found view. Result was a massive fatal heart attack less than a year later. (2) a female friend of mine with a family history of heart disease and high cholesterol decided to stop statins and diet her way to a healthy lifestyle. Eat no processed food, no tea or coffee just hot water. Result was 2 years later at age 59 she had a heart attack and was fitted with 3 stents. She is back on the statins and a lot of the usual heart meds and doing ok. Now, I am on statins which have no side effects and just from observation I intend to stay on them! not impinging on your views as you are entitled to stop medication if you want to, its just my opinion mind.
Many thanks !And this is precisely why I made the post .
I'm actively LOOKING for others points of view and opinions .
I will be absolutely reading them all 👍
And on the flip side, the tons of people on statins that go on to have heart attacks. There are no guarantees either way.
Yeah, it's no good citing individual cases, but in the aggregate, based on peer-reviewed studies, statins seem to reduce risks, whether you are prone to heart disease or have already had a cardiac event.
As I mentioned upthread, I'm more at risk for another heart attack, no matter what I do. I'm just trying my best to reduce the odds. Last I checked it was impossible to do a double-blind study on yourself so for now I trust the science.
this isa really interesting thread and the replies within it.
I had a STEMI 11 months ago after being fit and well all my life and was discharged with the concoction of drugs they prescribe. I'm sure this works well for 90% of people but didn't for me. My pulse rate all my life has been in the low 40's so the beta blockers made me feel so unwell I stopped them within a couple of weeks. Taking 2 blood pressure tablets also made me feel awful so that was reduced to 1 shortly after.
The biggest discussion point of course were the statins. They never agreed with me either so started me on a period of research leading me to Dr Aseem Malhotra a well published cardiologist. my own personal belief is the evidence is not definitive although I realise nothing in medicine is. Its not an exact science. My GP however (when I finally got to see him) was completely unmoved on the statin discussion. we agreed to try something else other than the Artovastin prescribed. I subsequently tried 2 other statins neither of which I got on with and they made me feel decidedly unwell with terrible fatigue and brain fog. I made the decision to come off them. Following this I eventually had a review with a cardiology specialist nurse who was superb and far more knowledgeable than the GP.
As a result of this discussion I agreed to try the new injection therapy which apparently has few side-effects. I had the first of 3 injections in October and so far, no adverse effects although the treatment is in its infancy. I'm still troubled by a couple of things post H/A, mostly this awful brain fog and severe tinnitus in my left ear. I've learnt that recovery from a H/A physically was relatively straightforward for me. My fitness is back, I'm exercising well and regularly, eating healthy (but I've always done that) but you do seem to swap one set of issues for another due to the medication which takes time, trial and error to resolve.
I would despair at seeing others recover far quicker than me. It seems to have taken an age to get to a point where my confidence is coming back and I feel well enough to contemplate looking for a job and returning to some sort of work. That again is an issue in itself as you son realise how discriminatory we are to people looking for work in their 50's and 60's.
I think most people have little input to what drug regime they end up on 90% of the time and that may be fine as it works for them but personally I believe there are many that end up trying to resolve a myriad of issues caused by drug regimes that is detrimental to their long term health both physical and mental.
best of luck on your recovery journey
Thank you for your interesting response!It is a true dilemma.
I'm sure everyone here is just trying to do the best for themselves and believes their own approach is the right one .
I have also regained my fitness, infact I would absolutely say it's better than it was a few years before my heart attack!
Having now lost over 3 stone and tottaly reversed my T2D which is now in Remission and every blood test back in the normal range .
I will certainly look up the work of
Dr Aseem Malhotra.
Thank you .
Stay healthy 🙏
Hi. Yeah, I did. Went on a low carb high protein diet and berberine. A few months later I had a follow-up with the doctor after they had taken some bloods and he was pleased that my cholesterol had come down by a fair bit
I had previously questioned the need for him prescribing them for me, and he then took this low reading as confirmation that he was right to prescribe them. I told him that I hadn't been taking the statins and he was stunned into silence for a moment, and then murmured something along the lines of that I should still be taking them.
I'm not. Still taking the berberine though, a natural product, and there's good peer reviewed papers/trials out there that appear to show that it is just as effective at lowering cholesterol as statins, perhaps even more so. Caveat: As a few other posters have mentioned, statins can do more than lower cholesterol with regards to platelets, and that should also be taken into consideration.
Many thanks !I read your reply with interest.
I've not particularly looked at alternative medication at this stage, but certainly an avenue to explore
🙂👍
Absolutely not. I had to change from atorvastatin to simvastatin because of side effects but having had two stents and possibly needing two more, ( I have two more 64% blockages)statins not only help reduce cholesterol but they also stabilise plaque so it doesn't break off and cause another heart attack or block the stents. I did stop them with GP's approval for a month to see whether they were responsible for new pain- they weren't)
Thank you... Much appreciated response!I wish you well 🙏
Thank you everyone who has replied so far !I am interested in EVERYONE'S response 🙂
Our thoughts may well differ on all of this, but ultimately this is just an opinion gathering excercise.
Everyone's reply is of course equally valid so thank you !
I will absolutely read everyone's reply and forgive me if I don't /can't respond straight away ... But I will work my way through!
For those who have expressed concern, thank you and be assured I am just for now gathering data and opinions and I am certainly not about to make any snap decisions on this.
I will however, continue my research.
For those who have asked specifically where I have obtained my information I will respond with sources as and when I can find the time .
Thank you all ,
I wish you all the best health possible 🙏
yes my husband has , he has stop taken then about a week now
Ok, thank you for your reply ....Can I ask why ?
No worries if you'd rather not say ...
I'm just data gathering 😁
Best wishes to your husband 🙏
Intructor57, I am aligned to your thinking, I wondered if you have thoughts on plant based diets, "Blue Zone" (Dan Beuttner) philosophy and their (negative) correlation with CVD?
Hi, thanks for your reply .I have certainly considered a plant based diet.
But to be honest I'm not sure if I could maintain it, and after my heart attack, then type 2 diagnosis I spent a lot of time first of all removing added sugars and going for a low carb diet...
I managed to loose over 3 stone and bring all my blood levels back to normal with this eating regime and also intermittent fasting which has pretty much reset my insulin sensitivity to the point of now being officially in Remission of T2D.
Infact my Hba1c levels are now completely normal, so a fair bit below what is even considered as being pre diabetic.
With all the above I felt that my body had been through enough and therefore decided against fully plant based diet .
I did for a very brief time consider veganism .
But not for long ..
Now having some stability in my health and a interesting face to face session with a nutritionist, I am sticking to what appears to be working (at least for me)
I eat a lot more fish , vegetables, and mostly chicken, but allow myself one red meat meal per month 😁
I do also have several plant based meals from a recipe box company 'Planthood' but they tend to be a bit too high in carbs for my liking so don't have them often .
I have watched the blue zone , but for me I am undecided ...
It's certainly not easy , navigating the overwhelming and conflicting advice out there !
And I do have concerns though about some of the standard responses that we are just expected to accept, and the what appears to be a one size fits all medication responce to a heart attack. 😐
Thanks, and it is very good to hear you have made positive progress and even to the point of remission - congratulations. Sounds like the answer is education and experiment to what works for you. I have been tending towards a plant based diet myself, although am someone closer to yours, still consuming chicken and fish. I do find find the vegan/plant-based foods quite hard work to decode nutritional content as opposed to 'normal' diets. As you have made such good progress, could I ask where you with dairy - is that still part of your diet and in what quantities?
Simple answer is No, I would never consider changing any medication without consulting my Doctor.
I wish you the best of luck making sense of the well rehearsed arguments for and against Statins, its been running for years on this forum, and seems to appear in my newsfeed at least once a week with a new, same old question being raised on the topic.
Thank you !And yes I would totally agree,
I certainly would not consider coming off my medication without discussion with both my GP and Cardiologist.
Stay well 🙏
MilkfairyHeart Star
Here's another view.
I don't have obstructive coronary artery disease, no permanent blockages due to a build up of plaque.
My coronary arteries go into transient constrictions causing a lack of blood supply to my heart.
Vasospastic angina, a rarer type of angina/ ischaemia no obstructive coronary arteries.
I am at risk of a heart attack, stroke, heart failure and major cardiac events without a blockage in sight.
Statins help improve the function of the inner lining of the coronary arteries, endothelial function.
I take a statin to hopefully improve the function of my coronary arteries.
I have none of the usual risk factors of heart disease.
My husband and brother in law do.
My brother in law had an out of hospital cardiac arrest following a heart attack in his 40's. He is thankfully still with us without any damage to his heart or brain.
My husband had his second stent inserted last week to another 99% occluded coronary artery. His only symptom was slight breathlessness.
Neither were on statins before these cardiac events occurred.
All care and treatment is offered it's not compulsory.
I hope everyone is able to make choice that is best for them as individuals based on unbiased evidence.
Life is for living too 😊
When it comes to statins there is no such thing as "unbiased evidence" that it saves lives, only that it reduces LDL. There is plenty of current scientific evidence that cholesterol, specifically LDL, is no longer an important player in cardio vascular disease. Data is collected and assumptions and association's are made, that is not scientific evidence . What science does show is taking a statin will reduce LDL, lay down more calcium and for some reduce inflammation. Their commitment to benefits is, if you ask, that a statin "MAY" reduce your risk, That is opinion, not science and certainly not unbiased evidence. And what is risk and how do they determine that? The words May and Risk are not scientific and certainly not evidence they are opinions that cannot be proven.
HUModeratorAdministrator
Hi Instructor57 ,
Thanks for being part of our community.
This is just a reminder that it is advisable to discuss any changes to your prescribed medications with your health care professional. The risk/benefit discussion of any treatment should be between the individual and the person who is prescribing the medications.
HU_Moderator
Hi, Yes thank you,
I would absolutely agree .
And that's precisely my intention.
I would not suggest otherwise
I was first prescribed statins when I was diagnosed with diabetis about 30 years ago. It seems to be automatic to put diabetics on statins. I tried different ones because they made arthritic and muscle problems much worse, the extra pain limited my life to levels I wasn't prepared to live with. About 7 years ago I was admitted to hospital with pneumonia and was shocked to be told I also had heart failure. ECG showed that I'd had a heart attack in the past, which came as another shock, turned out I'd put chest pain down to heartburn and breathing problems down to asthma. After this diagnosis I tried different, newer statins but still had too many side effects from it, so stopped them. I'd been doing fine until I got covid at the end of 2022. I recovered from the covid but my heart failure suddenly got bad. I've had meds changed which has helped a bit but due to chronic kidney desease 2 meds had to be cut back to alternate days and there not able to add more meds. Scans have shown very narrow arteries, too small to put stents in and they can't do a bypass due to my general health, so there's nothing else they can do now, I'm at level 3/4 heartfailure. The question I ask myself now is do I regret not taking statins which might have helped to prevent my heart attack and the narrow arteries which are now causing me so much trouble. I'm 68 now and have had wonderful times with friends and family, especially my grandchildren, which side effects from statins were stopping me doing. So in my case I feel that it's a good trade off. However I think I would have a lot of regrets if I had stopped taking statins for any other reason than bad side effects. I'll never know if statins would have helped to stop things getting to the point I'm at now, so I would say think carefully before stopping statins unless it's because the side effects are affecting your life too much.
MilkfairyHeart Star
Here's another thought. Your very interesting discussion has perhaps overlooked something. What about women or people of different ethnicity?
The usual risk factors of heart disease effect women differently.
They metabolize cholesterol differently to men.
There are hormonal influences, menopause, age of menarche (start of periods), pregnancy, and pregnancy-related diseases such as gestational hypertension and diabetes.
All play a role in the additional cardiovascular risk to a woman. Hormonal influence and cardiovascular risk are even more important to those who are transgender.
Instructor57 you may be interested in this study on nattokinase ? ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... study on 1062 human patients taking 10,800FU per days showed a significant reduction in atherosclerosis plaque. I am giving it a go !
Thank you !I'll certainly take a look 👍
Please research Dr Aseem Malhotra and Professor Sultan on Statins. High cholesterol is not a heart risk it is inflammation in your arteries caused by lifestyle and diet. The Japanese have the highest cholesterol readings of any population but the lowest incident of heart events or stroke.
The Japanese have one of the highest incidences of myocardial infarction non obstructive coronary arteries MINOCAs due to coronary vasospasms.
Now, there's a thought, there's more to heart disease than blocked coronary arteries.
Please to discern inflammation in your coronary arteries have the Check with the analysis of your L.D.L. lipoprotein for part A and part B, if you have no part B you have no heart risk from your L.D.L. readings. Research has shown that patients with a higher L.D.L reading live longer.
Hi, is there a particular brand of K2 & Vit D3 that you’ve found that ticks all the boxes ? Contains the right amounts , trusted , vss as our etc ?
I’m looking to give it a go 👍🏻 Appreciate your experiences 👊🏻
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