Food for thought.

[Khonkaen]

I had a HA/2+ stents 4 months ago and have been looking to improve my heart condition with diet ever since. Prior to that I had osteoarthritis which reached it's peak around 2010, when I found some dietry success with digestive enzyme consumption. So I will start with that.

When I was living in Thailand we went to visit my wife's old (elderly) boss who hadn't walked for around 3 years and we found her walking again, albiet slowly. She had been taking a digestive enzyme supplement "Yuan Ban" for 3 months and looked good. My condition at the time was that after 5 minutes of walking I was done for, with knee pain, so thought I would try this. The "tea" was all plant based, made from guarva, pineapple core, mangos and a few other fruits/veg. I took a low dosage and saw improvements over the next few years, walking for about an hour at the most. Then my source became compromised so I switched to buying the fruits. I might add that high dose "Yuan Ban" was used for cancer treatment with many success stories that I saw personally.

With scooters used everywhere in Thailand plus the climate I did very little walking, which probably helped me have my HA, following decades of eating processed foods and way too much dairy stuff, the western diet....oh and some unkind genes from mum.

When we are young our bodies produce sufficient digestive enzymes, making their consumption unnecessary for the healing puposes. The older we get the more we need to consume to heal the body effectively. So the rule is eat as much raw stuff as possible since DEs are destroyed in the cooking process.

When I had my HA in late March I began reseaching that subject and the only package that made sense was Dr Esselstyn's whole plant based diet. But that has it's problems for me in terms of calorie consumption, hence my weight loss, which has no leveled out, with the help of a little cheating.

AS we know the BHF recomend the Mediterranean diet, now I have looked at the statistics and can find no evidence that it works. In Europe, France has the lowest rate of CVD by far and it does qualify as a Mediterranean country, but having spent a lot of time in central France they don't eat a typical Mediterranean diet. Spain, Greece and Italy are okay, but they also have a more relaxed way of life, which could account for their slightly better statistics.

Shoch/horror, at the other end of the EU scale is Lithuania with 10 times the rate of that in France and other eastern block countries are not much better off. So maybe it is time to look at the bigger picture to find an ideal diet for us.

I am open to all evidence based suggestions, as I personally don't want any more hospital visits and the necessary drugs I am taking now are my first in 20 years, since I took my last paracetemol.

I will leave my link to Dr Essenstyn and would be interested in your comments.

youtube.com/watch?v=6GPo8Ir...(Not working as expected?)

I have spoken to him a couple of times on the phone, but he being a busy guy I was unable to discuss specifics with him. I thought this forum may be a better place to get things moving. What's good, bad, etc. Recipes are particularly important as processed foods are all out of the equation and raw is even better.

...What's going on in the Baltiuc States?

[Lezzers]

Having had a massive heart attack & cardiac arrest 21 years ago, which left him with a 100% blocked main artery & a very badly damaged heart, my husband has religiously followed the BHF recommended diet & lifestyle & It works amazingly well for him as he's managed to live all these years! That's really all the proof I need that his diet works.

[Khonkaen in reply to Lezzers]

First of all I am not casting doubt on anything, just looking for the best solution and it is my guess that your husband is eating a lot better than before his HA? My friend's sister is doing well too, 2 years on.

Secondly congradualtions to him (and you) he belongs on my other thread, 21 years after all that, is fantastic.

Thirdly, my diet is not too far away form the Mediterranean diet, apart from dairy and oil.

Maybe this thread was a mistake, it was well intentioned, but, it seems, easily taken the wrong way.

[Lezzers in reply to Khonkaen]

I'm sorry, I too have had well intentioned threads taken the wrong way, unfortunately thats the trouble with the written word. But there's a lot of posts that criticise the BHF diet, lifestyle, meds etc. Obviously debate is very welcomed but (so sorry) when I see someone say that they can find no evidence that the BHF diet works it's a bit like a red rag to a bull, sorry again!! Unfortunately one size doesn't fit all, some people, like my husband, will thrive on the conventional route & others won't but we can always find evidence to support either view.

[Khonkaen in reply to Lezzers]

I am aware there is no perfect diet, for a start we are all different, but the CVD statistics are not there. The truth is we are all eating badly until we have heart problems and that wakes us up. Possible death is a great incentive.

I would like to know what is happening behind the old iron curtain though. Maybe study that, see what they are eating and cut all those items out...just kidding.

[Lezzers in reply to Khonkaen]

I think we'll agree to disagree, like I said we can always find evidence to support our views if we're looking for them ☺

[Khonkaen in reply to Lezzers]

Perhaps I should have said "statistical evidence", my mistake.

[Lezzers in reply to Khonkaen]

You did say statistical!

[Khonkaen in reply to Lezzers]

Judge for yourself.

file:///C:/Users/user/Downloads/Age-standardised%20mortality%20EU_lowest%20to%20highest%20(1).pdf

[Lezzers in reply to Khonkaen]

How long have you been doing your research? What is your aim for your own heart condition?

[Khonkaen in reply to Lezzers]

A heart attack forum is not the place to have an argument. Enough.

[Lezzers in reply to Khonkaen]

Exactly what I said 6 posts ago.

[ChicagoGirl1961]

Advocate a whole food plant based diet at your own risk around these parts. We have a few hearties that can be rather uppity and intolerant of anyone who advocates a diet as being a viable and potentially better alternative than the Mediterranean diet for those with CAD. You must conform to be part of the "club" lol. Of course many hearties are open minded and welcome the the views of others even when they don't align with there own, yet there are some who simply don't play well with others and are more inclined to report you for what appears to be for no more than a differing opinion. With myself being a vegan that advocates a whole food plant based diet, I have not been welcomed to said "club. In any event, this is a great forum with a wealth of knowledable members, however I for one would rather eat my veggies than argue about them lol!

[Lezzers in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

I don't believe I said anything about any diet being wrong, so your insinuations are quite insulting. In actual fact my comments state that one size doesn't fit all and I pointed out that my husband has followed the BHF recommended diet and that it has worked for him as the original poster asked where is the proof the med diet works, at no point have I said any particular diet is wrong. It can equally be said that some get "uppity" and even make unnecessary personal comment's when their diet is challenged, but isn't that one of the points of the forum, to debate? There is no med club that you have to conform to or be part of or be welcomed to, everyone is perfectly entitled to air their views on any subject but they should expect that not all will share the same viewpoint and should be able to express that without being subjected to ridicule!

[Khonkaen in reply to Lezzers]

Form someone who doesn't want to argue, well it is obvious you do and to the death it seems. My statement was that the statistical evidence for the mediteranean diet being the most heart healthy is not there. So if you want to argue, produce some, I sent you the only year I could find which shows none at all and have no reason to believe it is not tryical, so simply produce a couple of years that does. Namely that Greece, Italy and Spain have lower rates of CVD deaths, or even cases of CVD than all other countries. No more replies to you until you do.

This is not my viewpoint, it is statistical evidence, which is important. I originally heard this from Dr Esselstyn, perhaps you should watch the video link I sent.

[Lezzers in reply to Khonkaen]

I have not argued whatsoever about stats or lack of them nor have I argued about which diet is best. Please show me where I have said otherwise.

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Lezzers]

My reply was not to or referring to you lezzers.

[Lezzers in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

Thank you for your reply chigagogirl. When I'm the only person who has commented , other than yourself or the original poster, you can see why your remarks look like they are aimed at me. Unfortunately, the original poster seems to now think I want to argue to the "death" about something that I've not argued about in the first place!! So easy to mis-read posts.

[Milkfairy Heart Star in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

Chicago girl we all have our own approach to our heart conditions.

However heart disease is complex and we are all individuals there is no one size fits it all.

Prof Tim Spector 's research comparing identical twins' diet suggests that it maybe the diversity of an individual's biome gut flora that is important in promoting good health.

Those following a vegan or vegetarian diet do not necessarily have a more diverse biome.

An interesting quote

'Given the variation in the gut microbiota between people, the optimal diet of a person may need to be tailored to their gut microbiota. '

bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2179

Members of the forum will question any lifestyle choice that is suggested. Robust scientific evidence is usually sought including published research evidence in recognised medical and scientific journals.

The BHF thoroughly researchers any information it uses on the website. Patients with a lived experience of heart disease also contribute to what and how this information is presented.

Feelings run high and personal insults or insinuations help no one and perhaps reflect poorly on the individual who uses this tactic to defend their views.

When this happens the poster may well find that their posts are reported.

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Milkfairy]

My reply was not to you, nor did I refer to you. I have not implied that one size fits all, I'm not the one that appears to have come to such a conclusion. And I have no desire to debate the robust scientific evidence that supports the heart health benefits of a WFPB diet. We've already been there, and I would prefer to just eat my veggies rather than get you worked up over them.

[Milkfairy Heart Star in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

I am curious as to why you make reference to my feelings. This is making assumptions about my feelings which are my own.

Making such a remark is an unkind personal remark.

You are shooting the messenger not the message.

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Milkfairy]

I have made no mention of your feelings. Nor any unkind personal remarks, and I bare you no ill will.

[Khonkaen in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

Thanks for the warning, I will confine my discussions to the open minded here.

[Janma123]

If you find a diet that suits you, that’s great. However as members of the species Homo sapiens we need a diet that supplies us with some nutrients that cannot be obtained from a plant only diet (vitamin b12) and a number of nutrients that are more easily absorbed from animal sources. Some of the medication we take further disrupts our digestion and absorption of nutrients.

My husband as a child could not eat vegetables and now, following his bypass and stroke last year has gone back to this, so I work along with him but I ‘hide’ veg in mince, sauces etc. He also eats a limited range of fruit.

We reduced the sugar he consumed but as he is by nature more of a carnivore than a herbivore that’s where we stay - he now enjoys his food and cooking is once again a pleasure

Each to his own.

[Lezzers in reply to Janma123]

My husband is the same with fruit & veg but as he often suffers with high potassium and a lot of fruit & veg are high in potassium I don't force the issue. My husband has HF and I've heard lots of people say their taste in foods have changed, not sure if that would be the meds or if its connected to the condition

[Khonkaen in reply to Janma123]

It is not easy and I do take B12 tablets as recommended by Dr Esselstyn. I am not forcing any issue, simply looking for an open discussion to maximuse my chances of not returning to the chopping board.

My taste in food has changed beyond recognition in only a few days and will again when I change countries and can't find what I get easily in Portugal. There is also a quality issue now with food in SE Asia, with much of their food coming from China..ouch! Come to think of it that applies everywhere now.

There is also the side efects of the drugs I am taking, my diet is very rich in folic acid, yet my blood count reads low, so something is getting messed up. B12 is fine, but then I do cheat.

[Janma123 in reply to Khonkaen]

Which drugs are you taking?

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Janma123]

To each his/her own indeed. Words everyone would do well to remember.

[Adaboo]

Very interesting post, I have also looked at studies on diet and found various faults with all of them lol. I’ve now been eating lowish carb, Not keto ( under 100 gs) and med healthy fat. My cholesterol ratio and triglycerides plus all other bloods are now in optimal range ( without statins) so it obviously works for me, might not be the same for everyone though. I had the strange experience of having a surprise long conversation with a vascular surgeon yesterday. We discussed diet, intermittent fasting and statins plus Linus Pauling therapy with him. He amazed me by actually having read loads about all of it, and is doing intermittent fasting himself and following Pauling therapy. He was very interested in how the low carb was working most of all. I felt he maybe has a heart issue but he didn’t divulge that to me. Sorry you haven’t had a great response on here , as has already been explained, some are more open minded for debate than others, ( not insulting anyone in particular, so no nasty comments please). and that makes life interesting to say the least 🙂

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Adaboo]

It would be great to hear the experiences of those that have intermittently fasted for a period of time. As disciplined as I am with regard to my diet, I don't think I could handle fasting on any type of regular basis. I remember not being able to eat for a day before a colonoscopy and I was miserable........I tried but the Pauling therapy to some degree many years ago, but as I recall I found all the vitamin c to be disagreeable, but would be interested to hear from others who use this therapy. I still take vitamins c and e, but not dosages as advocated by Pauling.

[Khonkaen]

What has happened to this thread, it was supposed be about various diets suitable for us, alternatives to the BHF Med diet? Including recipies, superfoods, who is doing what, even mistakes made. I was also hoping for some links to evidence based diets to look at, there is a ton of stuff out there. Let's try to get back on topic.

[Goldfish7]

Hi - very early days for me and no real evidence that anything other than diverticulitis has been eased by my current 'diet' but here goes.

Due to feeling considerably worse after my last ablation (no major PAF attacks since though) and a period of very severe diverticulitis that ended up with me being in hospital overnight did a lot of research on the internet re. diet and supplements. The results of this (often confusing journey) which I don't claim to be either 'right' or useful is:

I now make my own Kefir and Sauerkraut to encourage my gut bacteria.

I eat a predominantly low carb Mediterranean type diet - not much oily fish as I struggle with it so take cod liver oil.

I do eat meat - predominantly chicken but not daily. I grow my own greens and most days have whatever is in season plus a small amount of chorizo or salmon in miso soup for lunch with a small amount of soba noodles.

I tend to have either Mediterranean inspired or 'Indian' inspired dahl type curry's for my evening meal.

I also try to follow intermittent fasting leaving a 12 - 16hr gap in eating.

I take magnesium taurate, cod-liver oil, Vit D high strength, B vits and vit C supplements. I've also stopped taking my PPI's

The result of this appears to be a marked lessening of the very severe diverticular symptoms and some quieting of the racing pulse incidents and runs of ectopics that I have been experiencing since my last ablation. I still experience heart pain and breathlessness to the same degree.

I think something in the changes made has helped my arrhythmias to some degree. But as I have been made redundant due to ill health in the mean time this obviously has impacted on the one hand lessening work related stress radically but adding large amounts of stress as I no longer have an income! This will obviously have impacted on my heart and general health negatively muddying the results of the dietary changes.

I am losing weight very slowly on this eating plan without calorie counting or really cutting back on food intake.

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Goldfish7]

Now 12 to 16 hour fasts I can do. I usually eat an early dinner and a late breakfast on Saturdays and Sundays that would be about 16 hours apart. I never looked at it as fasting, it just happens to work out that way with my eating preferences on the weekends. Perhaps it has benefited me, I really don't know, but it certainly hasn't hurt as my blood work generally comes back with everything in optimal range.

[Goldfish7 in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

It is easier than the 5-2 diet, although I do try to put the occasional 500 calorie day in at times. The only down side is that I'm taking most of my tablets on an empty stomach but so far it doesn't seem to be causing problems. Unfortunately I never seem to get copies of my full blood work but there doesn't seem to be a problem with it despite me still being overweight (hopefully it will continue lessening). I think I'll probably try to get hold of all my health records as I would be curious to see what various test results actually were. I do worry that the NHS is so run down and fragmented now that different specialists can seldom get hold of my medical records which isn't good. Guess they are trying to get it so bad that they think people will not complain when they increase privatisation

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Goldfish7]

I always get a copy of blood work numbers or test results. I have a great GP but he sees so many patients that I know he does not have much time to review results. If blood work was abnormal, I would be notified, however if blood work comes back in normal ranges, even if numbers were significantly different than previous blood work he would not notice. If my blood sugar increased 25 points, or if my HDL fell by 25 points and LDL increased by 25 points, I would be none the wiser if I did not review my blood work because the numbers would still fall within normal ranges. Sometime ago I went in because I had felt sluggish for quite a while so doctor did blood work and said everything came back in normal ranges. But after reviewing blood work on my own I saw that my TSH (thyroid hormone) had jumped to 3.8, still within normal range but far higher than the 1.0 or 1.1 that it had been for years. Many people can may feel just fine at 3.8, but that was very high for me. Brought this to doctors attention and started taking Synthroid and was back to my old self shortly thereafter. We are our best advocate for the quality of our healthcare. I love my GP, however I will always want to see any sort of test results or reports rather than relying solely on what my very busy doctor concludes, as they are human and just as prone to making mistakes or overlooking something as we are.

[Goldfish7 in reply to ChicagoGirl1961]

I think I'll take a leaf out of your book - thanks.

[Jack2019]

IMO, there is no such thing as evidence for the "best diet", the scientific evidence is eat food in it's natural state, nothing out of a processing factory. Eat a variety of meats, fish, vegetables, fruit, all with their natural fats and fibre. Pick a fish, enter its name into your search engine and plenty of recipes will pop up on how to cook it, try the same thing with a vegetable you've never tried before, it's fun.

[Lezzers]

😂

[Milkfairy Heart Star]

Thank you

🤣😂

[fergusthegreat]

So Chicago girl has managed to keep her heart disease under control for 15 years following a plant based diet. Lezzers husband has kept his under control for over 20 years following the bhf recommended diet.

This is proof to me that everyone is different and the same diet will not work for everyone so maybe people should stop arguing about which one is the best.

For my 2 cents, the people that really make sense are Dr Ford Brewer and Ivor Cummings who both agree that insulin resistance and subsequent inflammation are the main causes of heart disease.

Get yourself a blood glucose monitor and eat the foods that do not cause a large glucose spike in you.

This is a very cheap way of tailoring a diet to suit your needs rather than following something that works for someone else.

[Lezzers in reply to fergusthegreat]

I might add, for balance, that both my husband and chigagogirl take statins.

[fergusthegreat in reply to Lezzers]

So do I

[ChicagoGirl1961 in reply to Lezzers]

Yes I do. Started a low dose statin a few months ago. I'm anxious to see my next blood work results. I really did not want to take one, but concluded their is a great deal of evidence that they reduce inflammtion, hence my decision to start the med. I had not taken a statin previously.

[Milkfairy Heart Star in reply to fergusthegreat]

Just as Prof Tim Spector reseacher at the Twins study in UK suggests and I quoted.

We need to follow a diet that suits each of us as individuals. There is no one size fits all.

'Given the variation in the gut microbiota between people, the optimal diet of a person may need to be tailored to their gut microbiota. '

[Goldfish7]

Very interesting - thanks for the info. I think I'm following something similar-ish at presents and feeling better on it.