Ubiquinol thoughts please?: After... - British Heart Fou...

British Heart Foundation
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Ubiquinol thoughts please?

Maxspencer
Maxspencer

After having a stent inserted 23/7/18 my cardiologist said that Ubiquinol was a great supplement for heart health and I have been taking it ever since. I started out on 300mg (one a day) but went down to 100mg when I read that it can reduce effectiveness of aspirin (i.e. blood thinning). I asked my GP and he said, 'don't worry, you're on aspirin and clopidogril so plenty of thinning going on.' I'm not convinced and further searching hasn't revealed anything new. I'm soon to discontinue the clopidogril because it will have been 12 months since my stent procedure and I'm wondering if anyone else among you clever people are using this supplemnent and what advice you have been given. I think I felt better on the 300mg but the way my mind works these days after the shock of finding out my heart was bunged up, my thoughts regarding how I feel can no longer be relied upon. Love to hear any thoughts. Cheers!

55 Replies
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CoQ10 comes in two forms - Ubiquinol and Ubiquinone. The Ubiquinol is dearer. The Ubiquinone is cheaper but your body has to then convert it into the Ubiquinol, and some people are better at converrting than others. CoQ10 levels also naturally keep dropping as we age &/or become more infirm.

I don't have stents or a bypas, but I've been taking Ubiquinone capsules for the past few years, on and off, along with Vit D3, Vit B Complex, Vit B12, Magnesium, etc.

According to what I recall from my research, if a person has a serious condition, they should consider taking CoQ10 two to three times per day, spread throughout the day... rather than just once per day.

Dr Peter Langsjoen is a Cardiologist and second generation CoQ10 researcher. You can find him online.

I’ve been taking the ubiquinol as I figured better not to have to convert it because, as you say, this ability can vary depending on individual. I will check out the cardiologist that you mentioned. Many thanks for your response.

Thank you, Londinium.

Vascular Surgeon Prof. Sherif Sultan:

Pretty good stuff, it seems.

Can it be measured via blood test/other?

Maybe.. but I've never had any interest in testing it.

JonathanH
JonathanH
in reply to Londinium

Thank you, Londinium, that's most interesting. I congratulate you on being so well informed.

One of the publications refers to statins inhibiting vitamin K2 synthesis and I also take a vitamin K2 supplement. Vitamin K2 is a complex subject worth some research.

Londinium
Londinium
in reply to JonathanH

Thanks JonathanH. Been taking Vit K's for years.

Have you been taking it long? Which brand do you take?

JonathanH
JonathanH
in reply to Londinium

I am not sure that I am doing the right thing and would be interested in your view. I take MK-7 because of its longer half life but additionally eat duck liver pate as a source of MK-4. The specific brand I buy is Nature's Best.

I have some doubts about taking vitamins as supplements rather than fro dietary sources containing potentially a range of nutrients and cofactors.

Londinium
Londinium
in reply to JonathanH

Hi Jonathan,

You have to do what you feel is right for you.

I sauté chicken livers, garlic, onion, herbs &/or spices, in some coconut oil and butter. I also occasionally buy chicken liver pate which I put inside celery sticks. The following is the only chicken liver pate that I've found in supermarkets without added sugars and crappy veg/seed oils. But, unfortunately, it's not organic.

I avoid buying foods and health supplements that contain sugars and veg/seed oils.

waitrose.com/ecom/products/...

I've been taking this K for a long while.. but I pay more and buy it from a local shop instead of paying less and buying it from online sites.

amazon.co.uk/Life-Extension...

Ps. I also take Vit D3... and Omega 3... and Magnesium Glycinate.

Rosei
Rosei
in reply to Maxspencer

Max, I take Clopidogrel permanently because aspirin is a big no no for me. I take Co enzyme10 every day. I have no idea about the effects of the two medicines taken but I do know that I bruise easily and if I cut myself,(accidentally) I bleed quite profusely.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to Rosei

My cardiologist did say that clopidogrel is better than aspirin but never prescribed over it because of the much higher cost. Do you take ubiquinol or ubiquinone? As Londonium states, there is a big difference. I haven’t had a chance to read the material offered by Londonium - most definitely will soon - but has anyone else read that there is a risk that your blood may be subject to thickening?

Rosei
Rosei
in reply to Maxspencer

The only thing I am allowed is Ranatadine, for indigestion, I preferred omeprazole but apparently it negates the effect of Clopidogrel. I don't know which Coenzym10. It belongs to. My Grandson had a defective heart, his Cardiologist prescribed Co10 but he want on a blood thinner, sorry this isn't of much help.

Hi, my husband is on Warfarin and takes Ubiquinol. His Cardiologist and GP are both happy as it doesn’t affect his other meds. Perhaps a pharmacist can advise further for you and your meds.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to Shar28

Thank you. I might just do that.

Is you husband also on aspirin and did he have an event that put him on these meds?

Shar28
Shar28
in reply to Maxspencer

Hi, he doesn't take aspirin. He was diagnosed with Dilated Cardiomyopathy and started the ubiquinol after that. He subsequently had his Aortic Valve replaced with a mechanical one and is on Warfarin. He was told that although ubiquinol can affect the effectiveness of warfarin provided he keeps the dose constant it’s fine. If he changes the dose then he has to have his INR checked and adjust his warfarin dose to ensure he stays within range.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to Shar28

Thanks for this Shar28. If you don't mind me asking, what dose/frequency is he on with the ubiquinol?

Shar28
Shar28
in reply to Maxspencer

It’s the Healthspan one with Ubiquinol 100mg, vitamin B1 1.1mg (100%nrv) and vitamin E 5mf a-TE (41%nrv). One capsule daily.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to Shar28

Thank you.

I take this supplement pharmanord.co.uk/all-produc... and I believe it has helped with my energy levels,

Statins reduce Cq10 (Ubiquinol) production in the body but there is no hard evidence that supplementation prevents muscle cramps, energy loss etc, however it apparently does no harm if taken with normal heart meds.

It's the old quandry with supplements, very difficult to prove a negative, but I also take statins, warfarin and Ubiquinol with no problems, can't do any harm and maybe a bit of good....a bit expensive though, every day's a bonus.

Good luck

Londinium
Londinium
in reply to tunybgur

I respectfully disagree. There are published papers and medics who've had a great deal of experience in this field, inc. Cardiologist Dr Peter Langsjoen. But, at the end of the day, we're all different and must do what we think is good or right for ourselves. 🖖🏻

tunybgur
tunybgur
in reply to Londinium

All supplements and treatments have their commited advocates, but carrying out large scale clinical trials is expensive and as far as I know this hasn't been done for Cq10.

This doesn't mean they are not effective, but the testing I have researched is inconclusive, although Dr Langsjoen is obviously a confirmed advocate.

The fact that papers have been published is not always a recommendation as often these are sponsored by the manufacturers themselves, although I'm not necessarily saying this is the case here.

As you say, we're all different, and that's the main reason extensive clinical trials include large populations, on balance I'm still taking them though ;-)

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to tunybgur

My worry is that taking them may be doing harm by counteracting the aspirin/causing my blood to thicken. I’d hate to be taking something that I thought was doing good only for it to end up doing the opposite. Hopefully, when I’ve read up Londonium’s linked info, I’ll have more to go on.

tunybgur
tunybgur
in reply to Maxspencer

Are you having regular INR checks?

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to tunybgur

Hi tunybgur, never had one, never offered one and had to look up what an INR actually was. Will look into getting this done in conjunction with taking ubiquinol going forward. Is it something I can get sorted at GP level? When they carry out full set of bloods is it included or is it in addition?

tunybgur
tunybgur
in reply to Maxspencer

Check with your GP, but it's necessary if you're on warfarin or any blood thinners for Afib (as I am) and can be done at some pharmacies, or you can buy a self checker, but in your case I wouldn't worry too much.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to tunybgur

Thanks tunybgur, unfortunately since surprise heart condition and stent procedure, worry seems to be an integral part of my life now. Might look into a self-checker if not too costly.

IanCD
IanCD
in reply to tunybgur

Well said. Statins DO reduce the body's natural reserves of CoQ10, which is vital for our body to properly function. We therefore need to supplement in order to replace what's been lost because of the statins. There is a lot on this subject in the podcasts I listen to and get educated on. Statins are pretty nasty drugs!

Taking supplements is not straightforward. Ubiquinol should not be taken with warfarin ( see below) & has its own side effects e.g Low bp -see below.

drugs.com/drug-interactions...

mentalhealthdaily.com/2016/...

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to 45sue

Thanks for this 45sue. I'm not on warfarin (only aspirin and clopidogrel - latter to be stopped in 1 month). Just wanted other people's opinions (especially those diagnosed with Atherosclerosis who are likely on a similar med regime to me.

Quite a lot of answers and contributions on this subject, and for good reason.

I know that certain prescription medications and supplements can interfere with anticoagulants. Vitamin K does certainly pose risks to anticoagulants, as any pharmacist will say (and they are more knowledgeable in the field of pharmaceuticals, as that's their specialism). It's always advised to check with your medical practitioner before taking certain supplements, but to be honest, I think a lot/some of it is to do with wanting to avoid lawsuits, so they err on the side of caution, and hence say it's better not to take certain medications and supplements just to cover themselves.

That said, I DO know a bit about CoQ10, in both forms, and as one contributor correctly pointed out, the body needs to convert it, if it's Ubiquinone, into a version the body can metabolise, and ass we age, this conversion process is less effective and takes energy, which is something we don't want to waste!

The quality between brands also varies enormously, as does the 'form' it takes, be it tablets, capsules or gel etc.

It's also true that you're better off taking it a couple of times a day, as opposed to a stronger dose just once. So I take 200mg/day, in 2 lots of 100mg (gel capsules, as it's more bioavailable and enters the blood stream more readily): One with breakfast and the other at lunch (not evening as much, as the body starts to slow or shut down later in the day).

Also, if it's taken with black pepper it's way more absorbable by the body. However, it best be on an empty stomach, so immediately before you eat.

You might want to look at Dr Stephen Sinatra's book titled 'The Sinatra Solution', as he's one of the world's top cardiologists, and he goes into the, what he calls 'the awesome foursome' (CoQ10 Ubiquinol, L-carnitine, magnesium and D-ribose) and also I seem to recall niacinamide (slow release). That's 5 (which I personally take too), but not 100% sure which are the specific 4. However, ALL are important, for sure, and create ATP, the energy our mitochondria require to function properly, and to increase one's 'ejection fraction'.

When we are young, having CoQ10 isn't as important as it is when we get to the age of 30+, and it's 'anti-ageing' too. But it IS so important to buy a quality, trusted manufacturer (of which Sinatra lists 4). I daren't mention the brands here as it might contravene the forum rules.

******************

I also changed over from Warfarin to Dabigatran because of what I discovered: There is 50% less chance of a brain haemorrhage over Warfarin, which also thins the vessel walls over time. You have to have the regular blood tests to confirm your INR readings, which you don't on alternative anticoagulants.

Dabigatran is the only anticoagulant that has a reversal agent, in the UK at present, SHOULD you get into medical difficulties as a result of bleeding. Warfarin is also more complicated to treat in such cases. Dabigatran only works on one PART of the blood, not the whole spectrum as it were, as is the case with Warfarin (aka rat poison as you may well be aware).

There are extensive studies on CoQ10 Ubiquinol, which recently revealed how much more effective the 'reduced' form is (which was discovered and patented by Kaneka, the Japanese company. There are only 3 places licensed to make Ubiquinol, 2 of which are in Japan and the US, but not sure where the 3rd is off the top of my head). So you need to be SURE the stuff you're buying IS genuine, as there are Chinese knock-offs, claiming to be Ubiquinol, but aren't - although they SAY they use a different process which is actually very similar...........but I don't trust it.

There is so much information out there, it's sometimes difficult to know what sources to believe. However, having extensively background-tested one website, by reading up MUCH from other reputable sources, I then came back to this other site, and low and behold, he was spot on. So now I just go straight to his site as I know I can trust him. He's not afraid of rocking the boat and just wants the truth: Dr Joseph Mercola is his name, just Google his name and you'll find his website. As I say, I have checked, double checked and gone in to things with a fine-tooth comb, and he's a legitimate guy alright.

I hope this helps!

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to IanCD

Thanks for the extremely detailed response, Ian. I have been taking softgels from Health Through Nutrition Naturally brand (I think) that contain (so they state) 100% Pure Kaneka Ubiquinol. My sole concern is that these may affect blood consistency in some way. It's all over the web that these are great for heart health but in a few places it also mentions that they may affect blood thinning products (mainly warfarin but isn't always specific). I will sift through some of the recommended sources over the next few days and hopefully be enlightened.

IanCD
IanCD
in reply to Maxspencer

You're more than welcome, Max. I don't do things by halves! I'm a very detail orientated guy I guess; but nothing worse than only getting half the story - either information wise on the 'net, OR when people give only a few lines in replies. It sometimes ends up with ongoing information exchanges, as it raises more questions than get answered. I find that frustrating; but I'm not criticising folks who don't have much time. I'm maybe expecting too much, although from my point of view, I'd rather too much than too little!

I have also bought and taken the brand you mention, though I do have reservations. They MAY be genuine, but if cheap, suspiciously cheap, then I'd steer clear, for sure.

I have contacted Kaneka directly before, to ask about a brand that claims to be Ubiquinol, as it wasn't listed on their website! That's a red flag to me. But the Jarrow Formula ones are legit, according to Dr Stephen Sinatra. They carefully guard their reputation, but even so are STILL good value. I shall stick with them.

But all said and done, I too was taking CoQ10 Ubiquinol while on Warfarin. If there IS a problem it'll show up in your INR results! So fear not! But vitamin K, in supplements such as chlorella (I have fermented chlorella) CAN be a problem. But again, they just adjust your Warfarin accordingly. But for people on different anticoagulants (note I didn't say 'blood thinners' as they are different. They don't 'thin' the blood so much as stop it 'clotting', and hence the name) one needs to ask your pharmacist (though to cover their own backs, they will just say they 'may' conflict, or that they 'don't recommend taking it', whatever it is you ask about).

Whatever one has in their diet, even vitamin K (chiefly in greens), DOESN'T seem to concern healthcare professionals as much as it's being consumed as part of a balanced diet, including fibre etc. So to ME, I think I can therefore take my supplements WITH food (except CoQ10 which must be on an empty stomach - but immediately before eating in my case). So doing things this way I think won't be a problem, provided your intake isn't excessive. There is so MUCH we don't know about how the human body works; but I believe in trying to get as much nutrition from diet as possible, and what you're lacking (vitamin D, selenium and zinc in my case) I DO take in supplement form, WITH my food, and a couple of mouthfuls between each, to minimise things conflicting in the stomach.

Good luck!

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to IanCD

I think I need to look at the INF route, something I’d never heard of until yesterday and so have no idea if there’s water or treacle pumping through my veins and arteries. Will also check out the Jarrow formula brand. Thanks again, Ian, for your thoughts and insight, it is greatly appreciated.

IanCD
IanCD
in reply to Maxspencer

The INR only applies to people on Warfarin (which I mentioned for other people's benefit, when/if reading this). It's a measure of the blood's viscosity, but NOT something offered for anything other than Warfarin, which is why you haven't discussed it with your doctor - or he/she you.

But definitely things like garlic, ginger and gingko biloba (to name but 3) do have viscosity effects, as they do tend the 'thin' the blood. But garlic only affects the thinning of the blood if crushed, and eaten within ONE hour. After this time, the allicin has little to no effect, but does if consumed within that hour.

But also drinking plenty helps to keep your blood thinner. Very cheap - LOL!

If your blood pressure is high, then beetroot helps to dilate the blood vessels, bringing blood pressure down (it's the nitric oxide present in beetroot I believe). As they say 'food is medicine'. I eat and take 'alternative' supplements (care of an integrated health practitioner, who treats the causes rather than the symptoms). Conventional drugs don't CURE anything, but merely 'mask' conditions. I'm hence OFF Ace inhibitors and Beta blockers. The ONLY prescription medication I take is Dabigatran, as explained earlier.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to IanCD

Thanks again, Ian. Water, now there’s an idea! Right now I figure alcohol would be the perfect blood thinner! LOL. I do currently take 1000mg super garlic, one a day as I read that this was a good heart supplement. I tell you this guardedly, as I imagine from what you say that this may not be a good way (or dose level perhaps) to take it.

Surely all people like myself who suffer with atherosclerosis benefit from blood with lower viscosity, no? Isn’t that why I’m currently taking aspirin and Clopidogrel? If I’m concerned about my the effect of ubiquinol on my blood viscosity aren’t regular INF tests the most effective way to monitor this? I’m up to my neck in jobs at the moment but as soon as I get a spare few hours I will go through this thread again and start investigating further. This whole stent and heart disease affair seems to cause me more stress by the day which is probably how I got ithe condition in the first place!

I definitely need to take some time to digest what you and others have told me. I wish the whole heart health issue was more easily treated. It seems there are too many competing theories/opinions and no easy way to judge the fact from the fantasy.

I may be back in a few days to catch up with my findings, if my heart holds out. lol. Thanks again for taking the time to help me out.

IanCD
IanCD
in reply to Maxspencer

You're welcome, Max. I know the feeling concerning having a lot going on in one's life; and like you, I personally think my school days, and early work life, were instrumental in causing my heart problems. EXTREME worry and anxiety, due to bullying and intimidation etc, I'm certain would have contributed, or actually caused the valve prolapse. All the excessive, sustained adrenaline will have taken its toll. But hey, what's done is done.

Re the lowering of your blood viscosity/anticoagulant: Sure, this would be desirable, I've not said otherwise, and I take your point with regards to what is/isn't applicable to you in your current condition. All I can say is I HAVEN'T heard about the possible conflict between CoQ10 Ubiquinol and your current prescription blood medication. But I'm not saying it's 100% right, either way: taking it versus not taking it; as you say more research (from credible sources) is required.

The only crumb of comfort I can offer, is that in fact if CoQ10 DOES conflict with your medication, then there'd be more solid and widespread evidence to this effect. I tend to think if there really IS a problem, then it'd be far more readily available and easy to find.

I would consider (as this is what I'm doing) going to an integrative practitioner, who has a deeper knowledge on this, compared to your average GP. I would definitely look at cutting out Aspirin, if at all possible, as there are many well-known long term side effects. This could form part of your private consultation. Indeed, I'd explain your condition and what you're currently on (as I have no knowledge at all re Clopidogrel. But I'd CERTAINLY be looking at what it is, why it's necessary, and what the side effects are, or can be, before deciding whether to carry on with it, or go to an alternative.

Sorry if everything is confusing (it is for the most part!), but having access to the 'net nowadays is so very helpful, which we never had 20+ years ago. The only difficulty is sorting the wheat from the chaff. But do have a look as 'York Cardiology', a caring, knowledgeable cardiologist guy on YouTube, who practices in the field we are talking of. He has a whole range of videos that deal with many aspects of heart conditions - though not necessarily 'alternative' treatments. That would have to come from an integrative health practitioner.

Good luck, Max, and I do so hope you find what you're looking for. But remember, MOST doctors ONLY know about what medications to prescribe, based on what the drug companies TELL them. You may have a very skilled surgeon, who then (sadly) follows protocol in medications, as they daren't (can't!) recommend stuff that hasn't been through trials - and therein lies the problem! They may be top of their game in surgical procedures, but have their hands tied as to what they can and can't 'recommend' with meds; and so MUCH is flawed on the med side. There are MORE deaths from medications worldwide than cancer OR heart attacks! It's all state sanctioned and VERY corrupted, sadly.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to IanCD

Ian, everything you say strikes me as absolutely true. We are certainly singing from the same hymn sheet. I guess I need to go away and - like you - get myself fully up to speed with my condition and the care package necessary to maximise my quality of life and longevity. It's all madness when you think that this is what the cardiologists should be providing when the reality is anything but. Corporate power rules! Whoever first said 'it's all about the money' effectively - knowingly or unknowingly - defined the world we live in today. Still, I'm not going to grumble my way to the grave, or let them throw me in my plot without a little resistance.

Thank you again for helping to point the way. I wish you good luck with your life, health and sorting the truth from the lies.

Please beware, I may return with more questions!

IanCD
IanCD
in reply to Maxspencer

A short one this time - LOL!

You know the saying 'great minds think alike'? Well it indeed seems like kindred spirits........and thank you for coming back so quickly, it's much appreciated, on top of your busy life :-)

I also like your attitude with regards to not grumbling. That's actually KEY, as it does nothing whatsoever for anyone, but CAN harm your health. Good on you - I'm just the same! ;-)

But yes, you're absolutely right, I believe, 'money talks' is an understatement! Sadly many people just take their doctor's advice, as they hail them some sort of tin god, or an authority, which in SOME ways they are, but NOT when it comes to prescription medications. Pharmacists are better versed in this field, but equally they too don't know much about 'alternatives'.

Good luck and good health to you too, Max. It's been a pleasure talking to you!

I have been taking CoQ10 supplements since my bypass surgery. It is not a blood thinner it is used to offset the deleterious effect on muscles caused by statin medications.

I radically changed my diet and lifestyle after my bypass surgery and stenting in 2015 and no longer take any medications at all, not even baby aspirin. I'm in the best shape of my life now.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to sos007

And more power to you, sos007. Great to hear that you're in fantastic shape. However I have read this regarding ubiquinol in a few places: It can also interact with blood thinners, so people who use drugs like aspirin or warfarin should be particularly cautious, Dr. Sukol said.

I know that you're not taking either of these medicines, but not yet willing to put my faith completely outside of pharmacuticals, I am not quite ready to follow your leap of faith at this time.

sos007
sos007
in reply to Maxspencer

No problem. For the record, I was on baby aspirin from time of surgery until 3 months ago and was taking CoQ10 concurrently with no issues.

Best of health.

Maxspencer
Maxspencer
in reply to sos007

Did you ever check your blood consistency during the period you were on aspirin? I will check this Mercola chap out. Plenty of readding to be done! Thanks again.

sos007
sos007
in reply to Maxspencer

I routinely do blood tests every 3 months to monitor all of my biomarkers. I checked my INR (how quickly blood clots) a few times and it was always normal at 1 second.

I see that others have given specific brands, so I guess I can too: Dr Stephen Sinatra recommends 4 brands in his book, and I list 3 of them here, as I can't remember the fourth!

Thorne, Jarrow Formulas and Swanson. I buy mine (Jarrow Formulas as their one is a gel capsule and highly absorbable) from eBay from the States. If you can get the cost down to just under £30.00 then you won't pay import duty or handling fees - and neither VAT if my memory serves me correctly.

"CoQ10. CoQ10 is critically important for vascular health, as it is directly involved in the production of ATP, the “energy currency” of the human body. Because the heart is a muscle that never rests, it needs a substantial amount of CoQ10. CoQ10 levels in heart tissue decline disproportionately with age. At age 20, the heart has a higher CoQ10 level than other major organs. At age 80 this is no longer true, with heart levels cut by more than half (Kalen, 1989). CoQ10 pioneer Karl Folkers (1985), in agreement with other Japanese studies, found lower CoQ10 levels in patients with more severe heart disease and showed that CoQ10 supplements significantly raised blood and heart tissue levels of CoQ10 in these patients.

In addition to its involvement in energy production, CoQ10 is also a potent antioxidant. CoQ10 is the first line of defense against LDL oxidation; oxidized LDL is a major contributor to endothelial dysfunction (Thomas, 1995).

CoQ10, in combination with vitamins C, E and selenium, was shown in a randomized controlled trial to significantly improve arterial elasticity in patients with multiple cardiovascular risk factors. The authors found that the antioxidant-induced increases in arterial elasticity were associated with improved glucose and lipid metabolism, as well as decreased blood pressure (Shargorodsky, 2010).

In an animal study, CoQ10 supplementation was shown to improve endothelial function, as measured by thoracic aorta nitric oxide availability and blood pressure (Graham, 2009).

"

Source: lifeextension.com/Protocols...

Really interesting reading. I am also worried about taking Ubiquinol with Clopidogrel . I have had three mini strokes.

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