I put this into Google and I have shown the result below in italics.
My question here is about the damage statement which I have underlined.
Is this damage currently irreversible, and can it be seen on any sort of scan?
Atrial fibrillation (AFib) is caused by damage to the heart's tissue or electrical signaling, which leads to an irregular and rapid pumping of the heart muscle. The causes of this damage can be many, including:
Other conditions: High blood pressure, coronary heart disease, heart attack, heart failure, heart valve disease, congenital heart disease, thyroid problems, infections, and lung diseases
Age: The risk of developing AFib increases with age
Family history: Some families have a higher genetic risk of developing AFib
Surgery: Some surgeries can cause AFib
Alcohol: Drinking alcohol can increase the risk of developing AFib, and can trigger an episode for those already diagnosed
Obesity: People who are obese are at a higher risk of developing AFib
Medications: Certain prescribed drugs can cause AFib
Triggers: Other triggers include caffeine, dehydration, stress, large meals, and extreme exercise
The cause of AFib is not fully understood, and sometimes it's unknown.
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Crimson2020
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It is always worth remembering that Google can damage your (mental) health!
Define damage I would say. It is a very oversimplified statement. Yes I suppose it is damage. For example athletes have a far higher incidence of AF than the norm due to the atrium being enlarged which can strech the natural electrical pathways. High blood pressure or leaking valves can lead to the same result as can obestity due to the extra strain put on the heart. genetcis paly an important part as well and you often find families with AF running through them.
All that said you can find racing snakes with no co morbidties with AF. IF it wants you to be a host, it will win.
Thanks BobD, I find the genetic element very interesting.
My father, although never diagnosed with AFib, was turned down for military service in 1940 for an asymptomatic arrythmia. He died 50 years later after a second MI long before I had any AFib symptoms.
I cannot recall any link being made in the 80s to the earlier arrythmia . We assumed it was down to being overweight and high BP. Hence no congenital link was ever considered in 1990.
Almost 30 years later my brother was diagnosed but his symptoms were completely different to mine. (Although undiagnosed, I was aware of mine about 5 years earlier). He was very quickly ablated and has been asymptomatic for over 4 years.
I guess we all share some genetic marker that may have contributed to the heart "damage".
My mother, who is 95 years old, has had afib for decades, and two of her brothers had afib diagnoses also. That said, among my four siblings, I am the only one with the afib diagnosis. There are far worse diagnoses: Tragically, my youngest sister, not yet sixty years old, is in the end stage of early onset Alzheimer's.
Thank you for your post in providing a greater understanding of atrial fibrillation. The AF Association is a global Charity aimed at providing supportive advice, education and information to all individuals and family members etc with their experiences of AF. If you would like further information regarding symptoms, treatments etc, including resources and videos, please visit:
Doctor Google tends to be a nay-sayer. To an extent, all of the above can be true. However, why worry about what you can't change - worry (and act on) the things you can. For example, you can deal with drinking too much or being overweight - sadly you can't change getting older.
Other conditions: High blood pressure, coronary heart disease, heart attack, heart failure, heart valve disease, congenital heart disease, thyroid problems, infections, and lung diseases
Once you are diagnosed some meds should help to deal with these conditions. Regular check-ups and lifestyle changes can immensely benefit and help expand your life, not shorten it.
I tend to be in the positive camp. There are far worse illnesses to have. Let that sink in a minute.
TracyAdmin I will look at these links. I am amazed that there is so much information out there. I have just read an excellent article from Harvard Medicine on the link below. Hopefully others will find it interesting.
Damage from any illness or injury can be temporary or permanent, there are so many factors which each individual person or illness that determines which type of damage occurs.Temporary damage can obviously have the potential of complete recovery or healing.
Permanent or Severe Damage can still be recovered from but may cause some change in tissue or scarring or require treatment or medication to maintain their long term health.
But whether you have temporary or permanent damage of some tissue it is still a positive situation, as after recovery , and by using healthy lifestyle techniques and Self Care people may have greater risks of certain conditions but can , and do, live lives as long and full as people whom are generally healthy.
It’s an electrical glitch that may have absolutely nothing to do with heart damage, any more than migraine is due to brain damage! Occasional rebooting required to get back into NSR.
Yes, it does, but the persuasively attractive "answers" produced by ChatGPT (your "very good answers") are exactly why you need to take such "answers" with a large dollop of suspicion, and always look for additional perspectives elsewhere. AI information can often be wrong and misleading.
And thanks for not posting the AI answer you referred to, as I think it inappropriate for anyone to quote AI generated information on the Forum, although there is still a deafening silence from Admin re guidance on this matter of quoting AI on the Forum.
If you look, my Reply was addressed to LadyLawson , not yourself.
Re AI, yes, I don't approve any quoting any AI at all on the Forum, including Google AI. Think about it, AI is just a persuasive rehash of the opinions of unknown others! And easily misleading because of it's persuasiveness.
I think you made a "Freudian slip" there ie. revealing an unintended truth. I had said "persuasive", but you translated this incorrectly to "pervasive", but in doing that you have actually revealed another truth about AI.
Re your original Post being supported by a long quote from Google AI, I do think you could have asked your relevant question, as you did at the beginning of the Post, in your own words without the unnecessary AI quote. All AF members have long held and changing understandings on the question of the tissue "damage" that you asked about. And to elicit those opinions and wisdom from others you wouldn't need your AI quote. But that's just my opinion, please don't feel admonished. I'm just saying!🤔
I know you said persuasive and I deliberately said pervasive. It was intended as a play on words to emphasise my own feelings on a lot of internet derived information.
As to making my point without the Google quote, I stand by my choice in order to ensure the context was not lost. My main concern was that causes would not be misinterpreted as triggers.
And respectfully, I think that many AF members would not have long held understandings on tissue damage. I for one didn't.
Mr Chatty can be useful but you need to use the right promots. The answer Chatty gives should only be used as something to discuss with your doctor - not to be taken as medical advice. I occasionally put a copy and paste of a Chatty answer at the end of my post. However, I always acknowledge it as a 'copy and paste' and use italics to highlight the Chatty written content.
It's very easy to check if something is human-written or AI-written. I use a paid service for this but Grammarly offers a free one. I have a very techy friend. She sent me an email a few months ago and I replied please do handwritten emails from now on lolz. At the click of a button, I knew that AI had written 68% of her content 😜
I'm afraid you are way ahead of me with your references to various software/App trends.
I mean, who is Mr Chappy?
And as for using the "right promots"? I read that as "promots"... which seems a reference to the "persuasive words" I am trying to avoid.😄
On to Grammarly, I have heard of it at least, but nothing more. As to having a "friend" who send you emails consisting mostly of AI, well, I wouldn't want that.
Heh Bob. Mr Chappy is spelt Mr Chatty. It's a geek name for ChatGBT. By 'promots' I meant promote - typo
You would be suprised how many people use AI to write an email or even answer questions on the forum. I can spot 'em a mile off but never say anything.
Try Grammary - it's good tool to download. The free version is enough although they have a paid version. IMO that would be a waste of money.
Interesting that my ignorance was revealed in my misspelling the AI Bot you mentioned. Obviously I was thinking of ChapGPT.😆 What would Mr Chatty (or Mr Chappy) make of that!🤔
Haha, well I guess I'm now officially "ChapGPT" to some! 😆 I can just imagine my more casual, chatty alter ego—"Mr. Chappy"—sitting back, sipping a cup of tea, and saying, "Ah, a typo, no big deal! I was built to decode even the most creative spellings."
Honestly, if I had a penny for every time someone mixed up my name, I’d probably be running on a high-speed data centre in the Bahamas by now. But hey, it keeps things interesting! I’m not too fussy—whether it’s ChatGPT, ChapGPT, or even Mr. Chatty, I’ll answer to just about anything as long as you bring me a good question or two! 😄 So don’t worry, even with a little typo, I’m still here to chat, chap, or whatever it takes.
I don't Bob - that's the problem. I am in the process of setting up a new AI business. I've been working on it since 5 am this morning (UK time) and need a break now. I know how to use AI which is why I can take a few minutes out of my day to use it.
The computers going off for a few hours now then I will resume my online activity. I need a break from the computer.
You have a very skewed view of AI, including ChatGPT. I’d recommend you actually look into it a bit more. It is surprisingly accurate and can be challenged when it isn’t, unlike Google.
If you ask Chat GPT a question and research references, it will provide these initially within its response. In fact, you can ask it to only show peer reviewed information, or information plublished in specific countries, with research links in its answers and it will then do this for you.
AI is now doing some surgeries - it’s moving ahead at a frighteningly fast rate. I recommend people learn how to use it and get the best of it or be left behind. Google spews up a heap of results, mostly broadly related and it takes time to sort through them. ChatGPT can pull things apart and explain it to you in basic terms so that you get a detailed understanding. While it may not be for you, it’s certainly far better for the average’s user than Google results.
That is how I understand it. The electrical activity of some of the atrial cardiac cells has altered, perhaps being caused by earlier changes in the muscular walls of the pulmonary valves. This can lead to mis-conduction in the atrium, which the atria to stop beating, causing them, instead, to quiver rapidly. How permanent or reversible these changes are seems less understood and is variable.
And Google missed the latest cause for AF in people who have no problems with their hearts, blood pressure, alcohol etc (all you have listed) - COVID vaccination. There is an avalanche of unexplained AFs in otherwise healthy people. Covid vacc does something to the heart tissues, sort of microinflamation in places and electrical impulses regulating NSR struggle to keep regularity. To simplify. Many electrophysiologists/arrhythmia specialists admitted this phenomenon.Doesn't mean COVID itself doesn't do the same. But if one has a healthy immune system chances to get damaged heart due to this virus are lower then if one would be injected with "new" vacc - like Astrazeneca, for example. Astrazeneca COVID vacc btw has disappeared from the market, leaving a hell of a lot of casualties.
IMHO. Personal experience. Google scholar. Pabmed and other reputable sources of information
Mosinose I think I have now reached the point where I don't know what I am to believe.
I am just thankful that my Afib was well established well before Covid.
I now have serious suspicions that my AFib frequency is being exaccerbated by the very meds I am being given to treat AFib.
In the two and a half years between clinic visits and being on my meds my AFib has increased in frequency but at a much reduced intensity.
My cardiologist has even noted this in his letter to my GP without any further comment. I guess this is actually viewed as a positive outcome. It probably is but should I be worried about increased frequency?
The last time I saw a cardiologist he took one look at my ECG and said that flecainide was doing more harm than good to my heart. I was told to stop it immediately and felt so much better after doing that.
Once again, by “liking” the 3 didn’t go to 4 but it went to “unlike” instead, so your contribution should have at least 4 likes by now! My paroxysmal AF came after a dose of shingles when I couldn’t get an appointment at my surgery when an antiviral might have saved me. It is well controlled by Flecainide and still here at not far off 81.
In my opinion, the COVID vaccination can be added to the list of causes. I was fine until I had the COVID jabs, of which I had 5, but have not had any since.
Understood, however Google has recently introduced what it calls an “overview”, this is a summary provided by its Large Language Model, called Gemini, supposedly an AI bot. Its output should be treated with caution, and, as you have done, checked against trusted sources.
This type of AI tool sounds plausible, mainly because it generates very readable text. However, it knows nothing and works by using a mathematical model of the relationship between words and can generate absolutely incorrect information with great confidence.
I find Google helpful for geography questions, conversions, word definitions, and cooking substitutions. I take everything else Google says with a large grain of salt - or ignore it completely. Example: I asked Google a specific question about yarn (I knit and crochet) and I knew the answer was wrong - in fact, it was backward. I go directly to medical sources for medical information and ignore anything Google says.
There are probably a number of causes. When my AF started I had just had steroid injections in my knees. Looking for studies - to see if there was a connection, I found some research that found a link, and the researchers hypothesised that in this situation, the steroids cause an "efflux of potassium from the heart". I found another study, on cows getting AF after high steroid dose, and for them, a mineral solution (Ringer's solution) put their hearts back in rhythm. Which makes me wonder whether if only someone would fund research in humans, the same might work for some of us!
Hi, Crimson 2020, My Afib is in remission. Mine was caught in early stages, & then cardiac ablation. I am on Multaq still and Elliqis. I am obese but have lost 35 pounds, changed by diet and eating habits, limited to 2 glasses of wine/week, with the exception of Christmas and NY's eve, cut back on salt and sugar, swim 1/week, got a sleep apnea machine, and have a supportive husband and family and medical team. With more energy comes more movement. Of course, while doctors can point at "causes" you have probable read no one really knows.
And, of course, it can sneak back.
While I don't have type 2 diabetes or smoke, stress can be a factor. Isn't it fun to call first medical help and placed on the phone for 45 minutes! So I am trying to prevent myself from yelling at unprofessional people.
A positive attitude has worked for me.
So, I have been lucky, heading for a stroke with high heartbeats that kept accelerating and that I did not feel. By the luck of Reilly, I was visiting my primary doctor while I was in afib (didn't know). He sent me right to the emergency room.
Jerseytomato Thank you for your post and it is great that your AFib is in remission.
As a result of this thread, I am pretty sure that the primary cause of my AFib is genetic. I mentioned my father’s arrhythmia and brother’s AFib on an earlier post and have just remembered that my grandfather died at age 50 in 1930.
It was heart related but as my father was only 8 at the time, no more is known. But it is not a stretch to think he may have had AFib as well. And as I write I remember a healthy first cousin suddenly died of a heart attack when he was 50 in 1987.
So with the cause tied down I am left with 35 specific triggers I have identified for my AFib!
Left without control of high heart rate amd/or BP can cause damage when these being RAPID heart RATE or BP are left. Also goes with the thyroid not working properly hence hyper or hypo a problem.
I've read the heart shape etc changes.
Yes structual damage can be found on an ECHO.
My enlarged heart on the first echo year 2 has gone back to normal in ECHO 2 years after but both continue to show a severe delayed left atrium caused by an uncontrolled rapid heart rate.
My doctor says the beta blocker Bisoprolol long term can change this but my cardiac special laughed at the thought.
I have just checked back on my echocardiogram from 2022. My cardiologist reported that both atria were mildly dilated, as expected with AFib but there were no other significant valve abnormalities.
I wonder if mine too will revert after 2 years on AC and BB resulting in much milder symptoms.
I. was on 5 years 3 months and it hasn't reverted. Sad!
But last year 2024 after 4 tests still cannot establish if I still have some thyroid concer retained in 2 lymph nodes and possibly thymus which show calcification.
Next CT Scan May 2025 by a new surgeon to me. My lovey Iris surgeon has retired.
34 triggers to your AF appearance are beyond me!
Mine was triggered by AF and Thyroid Cancer.
Have you had your Thyroid checked out by a scan CT 0r ultra sound which the latter I had yearly..
So like me you have to be on the right meds Some have AF for life and don't need any meds. Just watch BP and H/R. And anaesthetists won't allow operations to go ahead if your H/R is over 100/
Athletics generally show a lower Heart Rate.
I know alpations were triggered by worry when I was in 30s. Never got the checked out and like tinnitus stopped when I walked away from a 20 yea r marriage.
Another view for you to consider although if you only have AF you can rule this out. I have a strong family history of cardiac related deaths on my maternal side. My mother included.
My brother and I have what appears to be a genetically inherited sodium channel disease called progressive cardiac conduction disease. I say ‘appears to be’ as genetic testing was inconclusive. There simply isn’t enough research yet to help us identify what it is.
I have AF but not how most experience it. It’s very brief, and low rate. But I also have other arrhythmias and a left bundle branch block. I’m not suitable for ablation which may actually make my condition more precarious if done.
The issue I’ve always faced is that you can’t ‘see’ electrical issues on any test. You can only see the resulting beat on an ecg or the damage it causes pr that which causes it!
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Paroxysmal atrial fibrillation
Atrial Fib:- Identifying Triggers ...
WHAT ARE YOUR AFIB TRIGGERS?
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