Hello I have a profile on here as my mum has AF (with/had RVR) and the help from everyone is fantastic. My question is should a person with AF not use a home/electronic BP machine? Mum just noticed on the box not to use it if you have AF! The phlebotomist at the surgery asked us last week to buy one and do some readings as her BP was high on the phlebotomist's electronic machine last week. I believe mum's BP should be done using the proper/manual BP machine?! The phlebotomist was trying to save mum a trip back to the surgery I think. Thank you everyone.. any feedback on what you do would be interesting thanks
Electronic BP machine with AF ?? - Atrial Fibrillati...
Electronic BP machine with AF ??
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Sunshineandflower
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BobDVolunteer
Many are not accurate if one is in AF which is why the old fashioned "pump and listen" is important.
Thank you
I noticed recently that Boots had some BP machines suitable to use in AF that were on offer recently.
Do be careful and shop for one that is approved for use by NICE for AF. Two brands that I know for sure are Omron and Microlife. Do suggest you research both brands - if you see one you could come back on here and ask forum peeps their experiences of any one you like. I have used both brands.
Thank you for this
It depends whether your mom is in a fib at the time the blood pressure is taken.
If she's not actually in a fib at the time, then any blood pressure machine should be fine.
If she is in afib when you take the blood pressure, then you will need a blood pressure machine designed for that. It could be electronic or manual, but electronic would be a lot easier to use.
I know Omron makes one, but there may be others. Maybe go to their website or call their customer service and explain your situation.
Jim
If she is in afib when you take the blood pressure, then you will need a blood pressure machine designed for that. It could be electronic or manual, but electronic would be a lot easier to use.
Are any of them actually accurate for BP when in afib? I haven’t found that written anywhere (yet), they have models that are validated to detect afib rather than just the irregular indication which is great but I don’t know if you can rely on the BP reading with that afib detection present.
I think you're asking two different questions. I think all the OP wanted to know was whether there was a blood pressure machine that could give an accurate reading while you were in a fib. The answer is yes, but not all of them. The second question is can a blood pressure machine detect atrial fibrillation as opposed to just arrhythmia. Again, the answer is yes, but only a few models.
Jim
No, I’m asking the same question Jim about BP reading accuracy of machines when in afib. I know there are now top end machines that can check for afib but not read that if afib is detected that the BP result is accurate but Ialso haven’t read that it isn’t . I’ve just been reading the manual on the top omron model and still not sure but I’ll take your word for it. Thanks.
Got it and you have a good point. I just spent some time looking around and hard to get something definitive one way or another. I know that with my basic OMRON, I would often get error messages when in very fast afib -- say over 160bpm -- however, the bp seemed quite accurate when in slower afib. Let me know if you find anything definitive and I'll do the same.
Jim
If NICE have given their seal of approval on a particular device for use with AF then that's the gold standard. If not leave well alone. I use Omron Evolve and it even tells me if my arm moved during a take and, in addition, if I'm in AF. Vital for me because my Cardio guy wrote up that I was asymptomatic.
BenHall1 please can you supply a link to the NICE recommendation. I've searched the NICE website and can't find it. Thanks.
I'll have a look BUT when I made my decision to buy was 13/2/21, so they may have withdrawn it. This device first appeared in Nov 2020.
baba,
I've had my device since February 2021 as I've said. Since then it seems that NICE have decided not to endorse healthcare products. So unfortunately, you're left with no choice but to trawl online to see if there any reviews that embrace domestic healthcare appliances / devices. By todays standards I guess it is an old device but as far as I am concerned it is as accurate as any other.
Thank you. Well I'm not sure when she is in afib, she doesn't complain about any episodes as such but I believe from the hospital letter back when she was ill and diagnosed after a few emergency admissions a few years ago she is classed as having 'permanent AFib'.
.... So she is in AF all the time, 24/7, if so she probably won't experience any trauma as she may have done when it started years ago.
"I'm not sure when she is in afib"
Surely you can just feel your mum's wrist pulse to detect any arrhythmias.
Omron works reasonably well and identifies when in AF which is when you would take 3 readings, the Machine algorithm will then average them out. It’s not unusual to be asked to keep a BP 7 day journal as one off readings tend to be fairly meaningless.
I would just add that individual home readings don’t need to be that accurate, it’s the trend which will be assessed.
Thank you CDreamer and everyone, I'll check which make she has. She's been asked to do a week's readings. That's good to know to do 3 also.
Just a fact for you, the Evolve which I use doesn't need (3) readings, does it all on one reading and flashes messages when it detects you are in AF or if you moved your arm. If thats so, then you wait 5 or 10 minutes or so and do a retake.
This is from the Omron Evolv user manual
Evolv irregular beat
Thank you for this
Thank you
"Just a fact for you, the Evolve which I use doesn't need (3) readings, does it all on one reading and flashes messages when it detects you are in AF"
What model number is yours?
Mine is Omron HEM-7361T and when used it AF mode will detect if in AF. When in AF mode it takes 3 measurements with a break in between each before producing one result - but it's the average of the 3 measurements. Is that what you mean by "one reading" i.e. it still does 3 measurements but in one process?
No model or product number at all - at least not in the accessible visual parts. It carries the label and is marketed as Intellisense. You take a reading, it sends it wirelessly to the App ....... job done. I got it simply because my earlier Omron device I think an M7 did what you described and I was getting fed up with being a slave to a constant set of numbers. As I said this device will tell me if I moved during a reading being taken and shows a vibrating heart if in AF/some other rythmn problem. Never got beyond that it might do more BUT it tells me what I need to know. The attraction for me is I am mostly asymptomatic ........... so if at any time I feel unwell, and can't put a finger on it then I'll take a BP reading and see what crops up.
Off to get a cardiac CT Scan in an hour and back to see Consultant Cardiologist on Saturday morning, maybe then we'll find out whats at play. Can't tell you any more about the device though.
Buy one and see. I bought mine on 13 Feb 2021, my model has stamped on it 11/2020.
Might be the Omron Evolv (correct spelling) BP7000. It is a battery powered (4xAAA) wireless BP monitor with arrythmia detection and connects via Bluetooth to the OMRON Connect app on your smart phone.
When in AF, I think the key is to take 3 readings with a reputable make machine and work out the averages of the 3 upper and 3 lower numbers. Some machines appear to do this for you by taking 3 readings and displaying the average.
This was my point earlier that because a machine can detect AF does not mean it can take your BP accurately with one reading. That’s my opinion but happy to be corrected if someone can produce instructions otherwise.
mjames1
bean_counter27
Wish you the best with your scan and consultation.
Brian
Thank you Brian .... altogether a pressure cooker day ! had 08.30 appointment at Exeter Hospital (110 miles away ) and I don't know Exeter at all, other than the M5 bit. Sat Nav all duly programmed nevertheless, left home at 05.30 and parked up 2 hrs 20 mins later in Hospital car park. What an amazing Hospital, brilliantly treated. I've paid to go private on this one 'cos NHS is beyond crap down 'ere in Cornwall, had a range of other tests so far including 7 day Holter and what we know so far is left side of heart is suspect with walls of left ventricle showing increased thickening. Return to my Consultant Cardiologist tomorrow, Saturday at 10 am for further discussions particularly in the last week my BP has risen gradually peaking at 157/92 but HR is jumping up and down peaking at 104 and staying around that level for several days. Similar event a few weeks earlier when BP peaked at 165/87.
Altogether an interesting experience, never ever had a cardiac CT scan before. At least a nice sunny day for a drive. Watch this space.
John
Hi, John. I absolutely understand your pressure cooker day! I recently drove to New Haven, CT for a consultation with an electrophysiologist. Although the drive was only an hour the traffic and the seemingly endless road construction in New Haven made for a rather stressful trip.
How wonderful that you were treated so well! If I've figured the time correctly you're about to see your Consultant Cardiologist. Hoping for some answers to your concerns.
By the way, how's your shoulder doing?
Looking forward to your update, John.
Brian
Hi there Brian,
Update first .... going good thanks. Glad I elected to go private and pay for this heart analysis. I decided to exclude my family Dr. and choose a Consultant Cardiologist online in my area. I chose a South African guy who undertook all his training at Groote Schur in Capetown. A delightful guy, helpful and professional.
Basically, at the end of the day he changed my beta blocker to Sotalol. It seems this will better deal with my runs of ventricular ectopics ( which I wasn't even aware of but obviously showed up somewhere in my various test results ).
The state of my heart ............. basically it is in a condition, consistent with age ( 80 in September ) and no diseased components. Just remnants of original AF in 2010 and natural aging. The left ventricle has thickening of ventricle walls. The only other feature of my heart is that it tends to want to charge off on its own and beat to the rythmn of any drum. So far, the only thing I've noticed is that I am a little more weary than usual. Just gotta live with that and be grateful. Just had to do a road trip, a round trip of 520 miles of which I did most of the driving ........ no sweat, no problems.
The shoulder was put through the wringer when I had my cardiac CT Scan by virtue of the contorted position I had to lie in during the process and I thought for a minute they were trying to wrench my arm away from its socket ! Must have helped as pain levels are good now ......... nevertheless - I still do not have a full range of good movement, still cannot put on a shirt or a jacket without pain and help, but, it is now low grade pain. Onward and upward as they say.
Stay well Brian.
John
No, that is not mine. Different device.
Thank you
"That's good to know to do 3 also."
It's extremely important to follow the proper procedure for taking BP measurements, which are generally detailed in the instructions for your device. I believe it's part of the reason for high BP readings taken during doctor's appointments, which are often attributed to "white coat syndrome". How often does the doctor allow you the time to rest and relax for 5 minutes before taking BP and you not move or talk while BP is being taken?
Anyway, I always take 3 measurements approximately 5 minutes apart, which is nothing to do with AF. It's about making sure the result is indicative of my BP. The first is invariably the highest and generally the 2nd and 3rd are similar. This highlights the need to allow sufficient time to rest/relax before taking BP.
My BP monitor, an Omron HEM7361T, has an AF mode. When activated, it will check for AF, automatically take 3 readings and produces a single result - an average of the 3 measurements. That's presumably because of the significant BP variation that can occur from one beat to the next while in AF.
Thank you bean_counter27. Yes, absolutely, when rushing into the doctor's surgery it doesn't give much time for rest and an accurate reading.
The British Heart Foundation recommended a BP monitor that picks up Afib when I was first diagnosed. It’s a Microlife and takes 3 readings and gives the average of these. Both my GP and EP found the readings I shared with them a useful and reliable record.
Thank you and to everyone replying
I use Omron HEM7361T. It has AF mode, which detects whether in AF. In this mode it automatically takes 3 readings with a break in between each before it then produces a single result - being the average of the 3 readings.
My understanding is AF can result in significant variation in beat to beat blood pressure. Presumably this is a result of the inconsistent filling of the left ventricle as a consequence of the fibrillating left atrium. So three readings are taken with the aim of providing a more indicative result.
So if you have a reliable BPM that doesn't have AF mode, you could just take 3 readings and manually calculate an average to produce the same outcome.
Thank you
They are ok with them here in nz but apparently it is good to check manually but the machine is close enough for home use
Thank you
Those of you in the UK may have seen Anne Diamond talking about her emergency visit to hospital for extremely high blood pressure ,after coming out she was told to take it daily at home someone said arnt those home monitors unreliable but she pointed out that the reason was for generally seeing that it was stable and that huge differences could be noted as .Personally I use the same as my doctor an Omron that detects afib and take the average of 3
Thank you!
Nurses at my surgery use an omron model for patients BP readings. The drs mistakenly think they use a cuff and stethoscope but that's another matter.
👀😁
I too am asymptomatic and in permanent AF. I use a Boots own brand BP device it seems to work well. My GP practice accepts it's readings happily.
Thank you for this .. interesting you are asymptomatic with permanent AF like mum is .... I had wondered if she has symptoms sometimes but she just daren' t say as last time she refused to go to hospital and it did only last 24 hours (after a jab unfortunately) but she was worried and couldn't hide how ill she felt so I'm sure we would know from her when she is feeling the symptoms of AF.
TracyAdminPartner
Hello, If your mum has been requested to monitor her BP, perhaps check with the phlebotomist the most accurate device they can recommend for your mum? I would ask them to explain why a home/electronic device is not suitable on this occasion? There are a wide variety of devices available, so we would recommend a good reputable device such as the Omron or similar device from a good Pharmacy. If you or your mum would like any support, please contact: heartrhythmalliance.org/afa...
Kind regards
TracyAdmin
Thank you
Just going to 'throw' this in everyone. I had advanced Paramedic last year along with Paramedic [only one in ambulance due to staff shortages]. I had very 'irregular beats' after cardioversion and I explained that I had taken my own BP/HR and I was quite surprised when he told me that if I had an electric recliner then it's better to switch it off as this can affect readings. I know it's not relevant to this post and I don't know if this has been proven to be true but food for thought as they say. I have had both a cheapie Betterlife BP machine which I bought in local chemist and an Oxi Pro one which I bought online. The Betterlife one was very accurate as my Doctor asked me to bring it around when I had an appointment and we compared it with her one [pump one]. It picked up my irregular beats very well but not AFib and neither does the Oxi Pro one.
Makes sense 😊
I was told by a paramedic and various doctors not to use a home blood pressure monitor when in AF as they will not give accurate readings
I know it’s not relevant to your question as you know your mum has permanent AF but for anyone with paroxysmal AF some BP monitors show the ‘shaky heart’ symbol for frequent ectopics as well.
I suspect the "Don't use it for AF" is simply because most BP machines are useless when the heart rate fluctuates a lot and most don't actually show AF. Mine just has a wobbly heart symbol to show arrhythmia but that could be anything from palpitations to AF. W|hen I have a bout of arrhythmia my BP machine either shows an error message or an absolutely ridiculous BP reading.
Ah yes thank you
If your mum’s heart is in AF when the machine is measuring her blood pressure, then the result won’t reflect her true BP, so she needs to choose a time when heart is in NSR and take three readings while sitting relaxed, and perhaps with her arm on a cushion to raise the cuff to heart level.
Take readings until you have two consecutive ones that are nearly identical and use those. You’ll likely find this takes 3-4 goes (leaving a couple of minutes between each with the cuff deflated and comfortable) and that the high one will drop each time until it stabilises.
There is no way to measure BP accurately while AF it’s occurring, but the nearest reliable way is using doctor’s traditional sphygmomanometer with stethoscope.
Steve
Thank you for this, will have a go but yes I think a trip back to the surgery at some point for the traditional machine. She rarely goes out .. poor mobility.
Hi
My newer microlife BP monitor measures Systollic, Diastolic numbers very well plus Heart Rate and stores the memory of them.
But the other did not coming up with an ERRR. alot.
And I was diagnosed with RAPID and PERSISTENT AF at stroke diagnosis in 2019.
In clinic does a physical examination lungs, heart beat rate and stethoscopic measures.
The other bP model has a huge cuff which is not so good and the microlife has different sizes.
I can have ECGs done at my clinic. They show AF, HR and BP with leads.
cheri JOY. 75. (NZ)
Thank you cheri joy
I was never warned but asked to get one no particular type. What I will suggest is to write your numbers down in a book and then compare them at the doctors. You could have white coat syndrome and it could be up. I have bought one that was 40 points off, and it wasn’t cheap Might be better off if they have them at your local pharmacy to stop in a couple of times as they tend to calibrate those
Thank you Dawn for this.
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