On statins and why I’m glad I said no. - Atrial Fibrillati...

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On statins and why I’m glad I said no.

CDreamer profile image
67 Replies

Our local GP surgery recently put out these messages to their patients:-

We are contacting you regarding your statin medications. There has been recent guidance about a very small number of reports of new-onset or aggravation of a rare condition called myasthenia gravis. Symptoms include drooping eyelids, double vision, problems with chewing or swallowing, speech disturbance, limb weakness and shortness of breath. If you would like to discuss this, please contact us and ask to speak to the clinical pharmacist or if you start noticing any of these symptoms, please book an appointment.

Followed by very soon after:-

Following our recent text regarding the use of statins, it has come to light that this guidance is only intended for GP and patient awareness and is applicable only to those patients who have started a statin within the last 3 months.

We apologise for any confusion and concern this has caused and ask that patients please disregard the message.

End of message.

As someone with drug induced Myasthenia gravis - sedatives for ablation with anti arrythmia and rate control drugs in my case - I’m very glad I have consistently refused statins.

I just wondered if anyone else had heard of this or discussed with their GP or had this happen?

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67 Replies
mjames1 profile image
mjames1

Thanks for the heads up, however I would rather take my chances in developing a very rare condition that in most cases would be reversible (see link below) versus stopping my statins and risk developing coronary artery disease, which is the leading cause of death worldwide, not mention an increase in strokes. Risk vs reward.

gov.uk/drug-safety-update/s...

Jim

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply tomjames1

We beg to differ on this as there is no causational evidence to prove statins are effective for someone with no medical or familial history of CVD so for me - risks far outweigh benefits and Mg also can very quickly become critical, especially undiagnosed.

Thanks for the link - which I was about to post.

mjames1 profile image
mjames1 in reply toCDreamer

CD: We beg to differ on this as there is no causational evidence to prove statins are effective for someone with no medical or familial history of CVD so for me -

-------------------

We may be on the same page. While we may differ on the guidelines, I completely agree that no one should be taking statins if not indicated. I have a family history of CVD and also a high LDL resistant to both diet and exercise. If I could bring my LDL down naturally -- like some can -- I would not be taking statins.

But given that statins are indicated for me, the extremely low risk of reversible MG would not deter me from taking them. Many of the drugs we take have risk that we have to weigh against the rewards.

Jim

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply tomjames1

Mg is NOT reversible - it can be stabilized with serious medication which have their own affects. Having had to deal with it for the last 10 years believe me it’s far more difficult to cope with than AF. An Mg crisis is immediately life threatening yet very few people know much about this disease or how it is treated

US site myasthenia.org/Newly-Diagnosed

Or Myaware for UK

myaware.org/paramedics

To anyone who has symptoms - please do not ignore them and talk to your doctor about possibility of Mg - very few medics know anything about it. Thankfully my GP did so even 10 years ago told me to avoid.

It is rare but also underdiagnised.

mjames1 profile image
mjames1 in reply toCDreamer

I am not trying to diminish MG nor am I that knowledgeable, but the report states

"the majority of UK reports note that the patient recovered after stopping statin treatment, while a minority continued to experience symptoms..."

Again, if you don't need statins, don't take them. I'm just saying that this paper doesn't persuade me to stop them as I know my risk for CAD is far greater without them.

Jim

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply tomjames1

And I’m simply attempting to raise awareness of what to be aware of if you have any of these symptoms and that you should seek immediate medical advice.

Espeegee profile image
Espeegee in reply tomjames1

My husband has swung from being on statins to off and then back on again when nurse tells him his cholesterol has gone up. When he's on them his memory is affected, he forgets I've told him this or that and swears I didn't. He can't find his own things etc. Recently he started c/o hip pain, an X-ray showed "mild arthritis" which wasn't consistent with his pain experienced. He's binned the statins again and after several weeks the hip pain is markedly reduced. Statins definitely affect him for the worse. There is now plenty of research that shows cholesterol is not implicated or causative in plaque build up in arteries. It is there because it sticks to the plaque.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toEspeegee

Can you please post evidence of the claim about statins and plaque formation? I can't find this. I have read that the "pre-plaque" areas within the cell walls of certain arteries form early in life, even with evidence in teenagers. The cholesterol (LDL) adheres to these changed arterial wall areas to cause the build up, hardening and blockage.

Steve

Espeegee profile image
Espeegee in reply toPpiman

This is an extract from a PubMed paper - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/301...

This link expands that abstract - tandfonline.com/doi/full/10...

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toEspeegee

I gather that the work has rather been discredited since the reviewing doctors have been shown to have a) cherry-picked the studies they used, b) used overly short studies and c) used death from cardio-vascular disease as the end point of measurement rather than measuring the effect of statins on long term ill health from the array of CVDs that are prevalent in the West.

Death from CVD is often a release from years of ill health. Also, those diseases are a massive burden on health care systems and on other family members.

I don’t think anyone has claimed LDL cholesterol causes atherosclerosis; this disease process includes calcium metabolism, for example, and genetic predisposition; rather the plaques that block arteries are a build up of cholesterol.

Thanks for the link, though! You sent me back to read the latest evidence and it seems clear, as I thought that the benefits of starting statins early is clear.

Steve

Espeegee profile image
Espeegee in reply toPpiman

I guess you pick your stance, research can be flawed and manipulated, a lot depending on who pays for it and what they would like the outcome to be. Ancel Keyes for example was a dentist who decided to research on the role of fat in diets, to which end he visited and studied a lot of countries, then he picked out the countries which best portrayed what he set out to prove, leaving out the countries which didn't support his theory. His results greatly influenced the thinking of American nutritionists who believed him and gave saturated fat the role of the bad guy in dietary intake which has affected the health of many who were advised not to eat it. Now we know he was wrong. You could ask why the statin manufacturers were very reluctant to publish all the results of their "research" for years. Now they don't care because they made their billions and statins are out of patent so are much much cheaper.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toEspeegee

Yes and no. I have worked for "Big Pharma" so know some of what goes on from the inside. I remain less cynical than some are and don't much like that pejorative term for an industry that, without which, humanity would be much the worse.

Clinical work is massively expensive and complex to organise; it's also done in so many different contexts, some of which do deserve a cynical eye. It's not easy to fake results, though, and it's a very risky business since so many people, and their reputations, are at stake. Trials that fail are often forgotten and not published but owing to the cost, I don't know how many do "fail". "Bigging up" the results is the most "manipulative" thing I would guess is done rather than any direct fiddling.

Also, professors at teaching hospitals are very keen on their reputations not being besmirched so, although a few might be less vigilant and even overly "flexible", I would absolutely doubt that the vast majority would countenance any kind of fraudulent goings on. It's also the case that some clinical trials are essentially promotional or to show evidence that a new version of an old molecule, or one that is off patent, is "better". I didn't know of the Ancel Keyes work, but I do know that doctors are not always as serious, studious, passionate or learned as their qualifications imply - far from it. I've seen first-hand doctors and chemists get things wrong or go down wrong pathways unaware that they have.

My own biggest criticism of many studies is their length; and the early statin work can't have been long enough to show what, in the end (if it is as I believe) statins are now known to be useful for. Slowing down - even reversing - plaque build-up in arteries is a goal, but plaque is dangerous as if any dislodges, necrosis, somewhere ahead of the plaque will result - at worst as a stroke, heart attack or pulmonary embolism. Whether statins somehow safely help reduce or alter existing plaque I don't know, but evidence suggests they prevent it from building up, hence the need to start them early. Again, given that plaque is composed of more than cholesterol and that it forms on a surface that is already "diseased" in the sense of its epithelium being changed and ready to form plaque deposits makes it difficult to know just what reducing cholesterol in the bloodstream does. Add to this that cholesterol should "be there" as, being a steroid, it is a precursor to many others.

In the end, the checks and balances of the committee and peer-review systems are the best we can do, along with strict legal controls. They don't do a bad job in my view.

Steve

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toPpiman

Even I am not saying that statins are not useful for some people, what I object to is the blanket prescribing based on the principle that ‘Cholesterol’ is high and government support for such. It frightens many, dupes others and is harmful to a minority. I am aware that the usefulness of statins is to reduce inflammation, they are not the best medication to reduce harmful lipids, there are newer and more affective medications to reduce lipids.

As said above, if you have CVD and very high cholesterol which is genetic - then statins may be of help to you, but I am far from convinced that they will ever be anything but harmful to me.

The whole theory that it is Cholesterol is the root cause of CVD is questionable for me - the root cause is most often genetic and/or very poor Lifestyle in early life and staying with an appalling diet causing insulin intolerance - that makes a lot more sense to me.

Cholesterol is the resulting product and too much of the wrong lipids in the wrong place and calcification is not the root cause - so WHY so much money spent on developing drugs to rectify what food manufactures caused in the first place when Lifestyle information and education are literally starved of resources?

Thanatos.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toCDreamer

You have far more knowledge on this than I do. I am fascinated by it however and read what I can. I’m not aware of “blanket” (i.e. suggesting careless and inappropriate) prescribing, even though many do take statins. My own GP absolutely followed guidelines and was reflective before prescribing them to me. My wife has had them suggested for her only but has chosen not to take them.

The root cause of CVD seems to be alterations to the inner walls of certain arteries. This must be at least partly inherited and might even be “natural” in some way. Some forms of cholesterol seem to “stick” to these areas, so far as I know.

Steve

Espeegee profile image
Espeegee in reply toPpiman

Are you aware that GPs get a payment for every patient for whom they prescribe statins? That's a great incentive esp in a large practice. They also get paid for advising patients not to smoke, even presumably if they don't anyway. They are paid a lot to inject the Covid jab too, somewhere between £10-15, that to me seems wrong. When I first attended a cardiac clinic many years ago, before any examinations were done the medic said to me "I think you should be on statins", when I said no he was surprised. We have one GP at our practice who says there isn't enough evidence to convince him that blanket prescribing statins as routine is medically appropriate so he doesn't. He said he's tried to have the conversation with colleagues but they won't be swayed.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toEspeegee

NICE (and indeed the BHF's own expert committee) are convinced from evidence that statins reduce the risk of morbidity and mortality from CHDs in certain population groups. They know, too, that many people at risk do not visit their GP or ignore advice to protect themselves from CHD. Many continue to live lifestyles where obesity, alcohol, lethargy and family history put them at heightened risk of developing CHD. Hence the controversial decision to offer incentives. I don't know enough about the mechanisms and reasoning behind this to be critical of it. GPs are certainly educated and should be fully cognisant of and account for the risks involved in prescribing statins and of overly reducing cholesterol in the elderly.

NICE is, in most people's view, a beneficent organisation that offers transparent evidence for its decisions. It uses a system of expert committees along with other checks and balances to form its recommendations and works to try to reduce morbidity and mortality that would otherwise reduce the quality of life and put pressure on over-stretched NHS resources.

Steve

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply toPpiman

Death is a hard endpoint in a trial. It cannot be manipulated or be a matter of a doctor's opinion - you are either dead or alive. Unlike softer endpoints.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toAuriculaire

It's the "softer endpoint" that concerns most, I should think. Statins seem to be a way of softening it. As for being dead or alive...

"...'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! ... 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

;-)

Steve

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toPpiman

such a good sketch!

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toCDreamer

Just reading it against had me giggling away quietly. I didn't like all of Monty Python as some do, but some of their sketches were inspired.

Steve

baba profile image
baba

Myasthenia gravis is a horrible condition.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply tobaba

Our friend's daughter was diagnosed with this in her twenties but she is now, in her mid thirties, generally fine.

Steve

baba profile image
baba in reply toPpiman

I wish her well. My friend wasn't so lucky.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply tobaba

Yes, I think she has been lucky but it seems - if I recall when I looked into it for her - that most people with MG do live a normal lifespan and live free of major issues. I read that about a sixth who develop it suffer much more.

It's one of many auto-immune conditions that seem to be on the increase, although MG itself remains very rare, I gather. I have a feeling that, as we age especially, the balance that allows our inflammatory processes to defeat the many bugs that want to devour us goes somewhat awry and we succumb, not to MG, but to lots else and our body ends up "devouring" itself, metaphorically speaking. Why those things seem to be increasing might be better diagnosis or something else - particulates from diesel engines? Modified food additives? Covid and similar viruses? I hope soon some clever scientist finds out and finds a way to solve it.

Steve

Coco51 profile image
Coco51

How is myasthenia gravis diagnosed? This is quite troubling.

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toCoco51

With difficulty as many GPs have never seen it, mine hadn’t and had 35 years of practice and it can be mistaken for TIA or stroke.

Being aware of the symptoms in particular the muscle weakness which is descending ie:- often your eyes are the first area to be affected - blurry vision, difficulty opening your eyelids, difficulty swallowing with breathlessness, extreme fatigue with muscle weakness are tell tale symptoms.

There is a blood test which looks for antibodies but many people test negative with symptoms and some positive without symptoms.

It is rare, there are probably about 12 thousand diagnosed people in UK but also thought to be under diagnosed.

In 10 years dealing with this condition this is the first time I have ever seen a general warning issued on a specific drug - to issue a warning to medics to look out for this rings alarm bells to me.

There are many drugs Myasthenics need to avoid so awareness information is important.

In the unlikely event that you have recently started statins and experienced these symptoms - don’t hesitate to see your GP - armed with this information and ask for immediate referral to a neurologist specializing in Myasthenia and/ or contact the charities - links above.

Hope that helps.

Cavalierrubie profile image
Cavalierrubie in reply toCDreamer

Thanks for your informative post CD.

paolina profile image
paolina in reply toCDreamer

in Italy around 30 year ago my daughter's school friend was diagnosed at the age of 14 after seeing several doctors for being continually ill, luckily the locum she saw had just been to a conference and was alerted to possible cause when her mother mentioned that the girl could no longer whistle. She has led a fairly normal life even though she has always had to take a lot of drugs.

Pauline

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply topaolina

My uncle was a GP in Liverpool for all of his working life. When he heard I had Mg he believed it to be a death sentence because prior to the 1970’s there were no drugs readily available. We are lucky to live in these times as before these drugs about 30% of Myasthenics died whilst another 30% remained helpless, the rest did seem to improve with rest and time.

Diagnosed promptly and on drug treatment it can be stabilised - your example shows that this girl was incredibly lucky to see a locum who having just been to a conference so it was in the forefront of their mind.

I saw 5 different consultant specialists all of whom shook their heads and hadn’t a clue and dismissed my symptoms. Eventually I saw a lowly junior doctor who decided he would test for this ‘very rare’ disease, which he was sure I didn’t have as it was so rare!

Visigoth profile image
Visigoth in reply toCDreamer

I wonder why they are saying this only applies to those who have recently started on statins? Do you have any idea?

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toVisigoth

I don’t but I am trying to find out. It has been known for many years that statins aggrevate Myasthenics but denied by even the charity which represents us but I have found papers dating back to the 1990’s

Statin-induced myopathy is well-known, but the effect of cholesterol-lowering agents on myasthenia gravis (MG) has not been studied in detail.

STATINS MAY AGGRAVATE MYASTHENIA GRAVIS - 2008

SHIN J. OH, MD, ROHIT DHALL, MD, ANGELA YOUNG, MD, MARLA B. MORGAN, MD, LIANG LU, MD, and GWENDOLYN C. CLAUSSEN, MD

Muscle cramps have long been a reported effect of taking statins and muscle cramps are also a symptom of Mg. I just wonder if someone enlightened person has joined up the dots? 🤷‍♀️

The US Mg charity says this:-

Statins (e.g., atorvastatin, pravastatin, rosuvastatin, simvastatin): used to reduce serum cholesterol. May worsen or precipitate MG. Use cautiously if indicated and at lowest dose needed.

Coco51 profile image
Coco51 in reply toCDreamer

That's useful to know. Thank you.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toCoco51

I only know from our friend's experience how important it is to keep in mind that MG is an incredibly rare illness, and one from which - I understand - the majority of sufferers, few as there are in number to start with, recover or even go into full remission. Treatment is now vastly better than in the past, for sure.

That is not to belittle this disease or any auto-immune disease. They are all horrible and worrying, and often very hard to diagnose, even the well-known ones such as MS and, again, many people with these diseases cope well. The headline news is always of the few who have a serious version and, goodness, yes, they do suffer.

I truly hope that the work on covid brings forth some useful knowledge on autoimmune conditions and better treatments since viruses seem to have a key role to play in setting at least some of them off.

Steve

Coco51 profile image
Coco51 in reply toPpiman

Reassuring. Thank you

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toPpiman

You know, I know about 2000 Myasthenics worldwide through various forums and I don’t know one who has ever gone into complete remission, the numbers of complete drug free remissions are small. Yes, most are able to lead reasonable lives on drugs - my latest Ach array showed a count of 9, down from 113 after taking 10 years of taking immune suppressant which bring their own problems.

But you know what is really weird - I had COVID really badly - I was led to believe I would not survive COVID should I get it - during the Omicron wave in 2021 - 6 months later I noticed such an improvement in my symptoms that my neurologist joked if I got it again it might cure me. It was a joke and we both understood that and unfortunately the second dose a few months ago doesn’t seem to have made much difference.

I am currently trying to find out if COVID death rates in those with auto-immune conditions was higher or lower than anticipated.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toCDreamer

Hi CD. My only recent experience of MG is through our friends' daughter, and, although from a good while back, I once worked for a pharmaceutical company that was researching a treatment for it. I did some reading for the friends' daughter, and thought I recalled that up to a half can go into remission either naturally or with treatment, as our friend's daughter has and remains so maybe five years on. That figure stuck in my mind, but I might be wrong. I apologise if so. I didn't want to belittle the condition in any way.

Also, my wife had a different autoimmune illness in her late twenties, and, as was predicted by her specialist, has stayed in near complete remission. In fact, what that specialist told us has also stayed in my mind (no surprise, given the abject fears we suffered back then). This was that maybe up to two thirds of autoimmune disease sufferers have a version of their illness of which others might not even be aware because it never flares up sufficiently and stays mild - or even disappears. The general fear people have of these illnesses, he told us, was from the headline news and the few we see with bad forms of it, for example, some MS and lupus sufferers in wheelchairs. I don't know how correct he was, but he was a kindly, meticulous and famous specialist and what he predicted has been the case with my wife. She still has the remains of some optic neuritis which shows as as a weakening in one eye; in our friend's case, she seems well and enjoys regular long distance speed cycling. so far. In my own case, peripheral neuropathy has stayed mainly mild for years now, although this year it has worsened. We can only hope for the best and I hope the best, of course, for you, too. You have know the fear of these illnesses, as we have, but you have suffered worse. I am sorry to read that.

Your experience with covid is fascinating, and, well - really good news. I have read that, as a virus, it sometimes can affect the immune system badly with inflammatory markers being evident in many organs and, of course, the blood. I gather that this occurs mostly in people with more than usual quantities of ACE2 on their cell surfaces, although still somewhat theoretical. the enzyme reacts with and facilitates cell entry by SARS-CoV-2 virus. This is the case in some people with certain existing inflammatory conditions such as types of hypertension and diabetes, many who are older, and, oddly, in some who carry excessive weight since enlarged adipose cells express a lot of ACE2 on their surface. This latter interests me as it seems that it's only the kind of adipose tissue but the specific kind that forms around major organs, including the kidneys and heart.

A friend had a pretty bad case of covid with a cough that lasted a month or more and, sadly, has gone on to develop vasculitis and associated kidney failure. Another friend's husband has developed polymyalgia rheumatic, likely covid linked and another person we met recently is being tested for giant cell optic neuritis. The virus is far from fully understood, and, in those few who develop more than the usual flu-like symptoms, can clearly be pretty awful and life changing.

Steve

LaceyLady profile image
LaceyLady

Mmmmmm, I’m glad I refused statins too! My cholesterol score was 4.6 and was offered them! My nurse knew my answer before I replied, but she HAD to ask. My friend of many years had had a heart attack due to a miss managed delivery and had been on statins ever since, she’d brag that her cholesterol level was around 3.5!! I being a Complementary mentally Therapist was appalled and wondered what damage it was doing to her cells. She suffered cramps and I understand they can cause diabetes, if I’m right.

Elli86 profile image
Elli86

You really are treading a tightrope lately dreamer aren’t you 🤣 are you trying to see how far you can push it before your put on the naughty step? 🤔😆

I’m joking of course! Great info as always and very much needed. Let’s hope it’s allowed to continue 👍

baba profile image
baba in reply toElli86

This is a serious post, myasthenia gravis is a horrid condition,

Elli86 profile image
Elli86 in reply tobaba

I’m sure it is baba. Much like many other conditions. Doesn’t mean the situation can’t be lifted slightly by a bit of humour.

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toElli86

TBH I was shocked to see this information sent out as a text by a surgery warning about affects of statins and thought it newsworthy.

Elli86 profile image
Elli86 in reply toCDreamer

It’s definitely newsworthy

secondtry profile image
secondtry in reply toCDreamer

Yes, I have some personal doubts about statins.

But even more doubts about the comments by the medical profession backed by sponsored trials on many medications eg 'extremely rare' issues if you take it and high risk if you don't.

Regrettably we have to do our own research to reach a personal decision and move away from quick swallow this pill and there is no time to discuss it. I stay optimistic and hope over time this drives us towards looking after ourselves better with improved lifestyle choices and only seeing the regular medics in emergencies.

LaceyLady profile image
LaceyLady in reply toCDreamer

Interesting what their agenda might be, does it assume that if you’re taking them you do so at your own risk?

Elizka profile image
Elizka

I was considering a statin and would take one if my cardiologist recommended. I take a drug that can have serious side effects for my blood disorder but it worth the risk. Everyone has to decide for themselves if a medication is worth the risk. This is a great podcast on statins and how this is a drug constantly trashed without reason (not speaking about your mention above). Worth a listen: youtube.com/watch?v=BnGB2yx...

Mugsy15 profile image
Mugsy15 in reply toElizka

Statins are 'trashed', as you put it, for very good reasons, and interestingly towards the end of this podcast the physicians touch on one of those reasons - the fact that people with dementia are found to have abnormally low cholesterol levels in their brains.

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toMugsy15

It’s quite interesting to follow the work of an Irish Engineer called Ivor Cummins who became known for questioning the use of statins after his doctor recommended he take them and had affects from them so first questioned his doctor about the research who revealed he didn’t know so researched himself and made the following statement:- “If my safety data on a product was as weak as the data on cholesterol causing heart disease I would not be allowed to bring that product to market”.

He has become known as the Fat Emperor - Fat for advocating a high fat, low carb diet and Emperor from Hans Christian Anderson tale the Emperor with Invisible Clothes. Always interesting to look at the science through the lens of another speciality.

Thankfully we have choice and at least in the UK we don’t have quite the corruption of doctors by Pharmaceutical Companies that happens in US. We are moving that way, but not quite there yet.

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply toCDreamer

I follow Cummins on his Fat Emperor Substack blog - he generally has news of the latest papers on the covid vaccines that have come out on preprint. I have also watched a very interesting discussion he had with Malcolm Kendrick . He is a good example of cross disciplinary research in science. We are told over and over again that only experts in a very narrow field can have anything pertinent to say about matters in that field. This was used a lot in the pandemic ie here people who were molecular geneticists were told to shut up about the vaccines because they were not immunologists or vaccinologists. But the scientific method is common to all disciplines and if people in one discipline are deviating from it it can be seen by those in other disciplines.

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toAuriculaire

Exactly. It seems that we all cherry pick the research papers we read which will confirm our own beliefs. Kendrick’s book The Clot Thickens aligns with Cummins view - it’s Insulin Resistance which is the root cause of the high lipids of LDL which cause plaque deposits and the root cause of that is carb loading when muscles do not require so energy not being burned resulting in high LDL in serum with nowhere to go.

Auriculaire profile image
Auriculaire in reply toCDreamer

Hypothyroidism also goes along with high cholesterol. Mine goes high - well over 7 when my TSH goes up and out of range and comes down when TSH drops. How many docs when seeing a high cholesterol think to check thyroid status? No it's straight to a statin and yet according to the NHS website page on atorvastatin that was posted a couple of days ago hypothyroid patients w ere among those who should not take statins! Also it's been known for ages that HbA1c aligns far better with risk for CV disease than even LDL cholesterol.

reinaway profile image
reinaway in reply toMugsy15

One of the reasons I refused statins years ago was that on going into the upset at the time about whether or not to take them, I read everything I could find about the tablets and the one big thing that made me decide not to take them was that the human brain is made mainly from cholesterol. I certainly didn't want to jeopardise that!!

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toElizka

Several years ago, Ivor Cummins, an Irish chemical engineer known for leading teams researching and resolving complex issues encountered a complex technical challenge in his personal life. Receiving poor blood test results, he was unable to get solutions via the doctors consulted. He thus embarked on an intense period of biochemical research into the science of human metabolism. Within eight weeks he had resolved and optimized all of his blood test metrics. Also, he had shed over 15Kg of bodyfat with relative ease. In the following years he continued his research on the many “root causes” of modern disease, from “cholesterol” through to insulin resistance. In order to help stem the tide of chronic disease in our modern population, he embarked on a personal mission to share the science and solutions. He began this process by giving corporate talks and releasing them on YouTube for the wider audience. He has since become a professional speaker of note, giving many public lectures and chairing interviews with worldwide health experts. Most notably he was invited by the President of the British Association for Cardiovascular Prevention and Rehabilitation (BACPR) to give a keynote talk on heart disease root causes, at their annual conference in London last October. All of Ivor’s public lectures and interviews are available on his YouTube channel or his Podcast website - The Fat Emperor.

We all need to evaluate our risks and for me there is no proven benefit for me to take statins but very high risks to cope with if I did.

Barny12 profile image
Barny12 in reply toCDreamer

Heh, his youtube channel is certainly interesting. Who could have predicted his cholesterol denial goes along with climate change denial, Covid vaccine denialism, anti-lockdown/anti mask, globalist agenda nonsense, "Discover who really runs the world" garbage etc etc.

And don't forget to ditch your pension as he generously reminds us at the start of the videos:

"I've made sure for me and my family to convert a significant percentage of pension etc. into physical precious metals ('real money'). If you are interested in taking similar action, I've agreed a follower's deal with PureGold in the UK (they have vault in NY and work with USA customers too) - just use the following link: bit.ly/ivor-cummings-gold. This gives a special discount on the first year's storage charge. PureGold manage Storage or Delivery worldwide – Fully allocated and segregated vaults in London and Zurich (all fully insured). 5k minimum purchase"

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toBarny12

Well, Barny, I am about to look at the YT videos and blogs but you've come up with some things that, well, are interesting and don't surprise me.

The monetisation of YouTube is leading us into interesting areas. Brave (grave?) new world.

Steve

Singwell profile image
Singwell

Interesting. I know if you're hypothyroid you are advised not to have satins. It's on the NICE guidelines if I recall. Not that my GP seemed to know. Glad you've raised this. Could be important for some.

Singwell profile image
Singwell

When I was offered them I asked around, as well as on here. A friend reported really awful side effects in a family member including muscle weakness and a retired laryngeal surgeon friend, who has cardiomypathy, elected to come off them because the statins were causing loss of mental faculty. Apparently colleagues had thought dementia was kicking in. 12 years on, he's still with us, all mental faculties present and correct. It'll be the heart that takes him eventually but he's in his 80s and has chosen his quality of life. I strongly suspect I'll do the same. Meanwhile I'm taking the plant sterols you recommended CDreamer and I may look into red yeast rice supplements.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toSingwell

My now elderly next door neighbour thirty years ago used to worry she had dementia owing to her poor memory; a decade or so later, my brother-in-law was told he had early Alzheimer's.

Both are still with us with their poor memories yet no dementia has surfaced. Both take statins.

Steve

Singwell profile image
Singwell in reply toPpiman

Good to know the other side Thank you!

Jetcat profile image
Jetcat

That’s not very good.!!😳

ralphfuh profile image
ralphfuh

Statins may lower LDL but may raise LPa which also is bad. So you lower one bad thing thing but increase another.

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toralphfuh

But the end point of massive long term studies surely shows us that they are very worthwhile and result in less morbidity and hospitalisation from cardiovascular disease, and most especially so in those who have already had some kind of CV event, I gather.

I wouldn't want to poison myself, or make myself ill and I came off statins for two years because of warnings from social media and similar. The symptoms that I thought might have been statin related stayed the same and, if I could think back that far, likely predated my taking statins. In the end, my GP convinced me to go back on them which I did, and have had no side effects at all.

Steve.

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toPpiman

Steve may I ask what criteria was used to determine that you might benefit from statins?

The doctors I have talked to who have studied the phenomena of reducing CV deaths and morbidity was probably down to their anti inflammatory properties?

Ppiman profile image
Ppiman in reply toCDreamer

It was likely my having started with arrhythmias in 2019 since before that, my GP was much less concerned about my taking them. My LDL was around 6-7, if I recall, and I wasn't deemed at special risk (although my mother died at 74 of heart problems, and my father at 79, soon after, so likely from the shock).

I don't like taking any drugs at all but what with statins, losartan (despite normal BP, said to be a cardio and kidney protective as I have LBBB) and tablets for enlarged prostate bladder symptoms and add in acid reflux, well, the morning begins with a few!

Do you have links to latest work on the anti-inflammatory effects of statins? I'd like to read that as I try to keep up to date.

Steve

MiniMeGreen profile image
MiniMeGreen

I think it was very wise to refuse statins. They are given nowadays almost indiscriminately to everyone while really indicated just for few.

My mother in law got Myasthenia Gravis and later heavy confusion from unknown reason. She also got statin just based on age and slightly elevated cholesterol few months before. I fought to get her off the statin w/o success. Several months later one sensible doctor stopped her statin and her confusion almost disappeared though not the Myasthenia. Unfortunately she was still heavily overtreated and died not much later mainly due to polypharmacy. There are about 3-4 individual published case reports.

Even when indicated, there is an interesting meta-analysis showing that they prolong the life by approximately 4-5 days, I can get you the papers if you are interested in about a week because I'm not at home right now.

CDreamer profile image
CDreamer in reply toMiniMeGreen

So sorry about your mother in law, sounds terrible. I completely agree about over prescribing, thankfully my GP was a hospital specialist and a HP and had treated Myasthenics before, most GPs have little or no experience of it.

Sounds like you were a great support for her. I would be interested in seeing those papers - in your own time.

Thanks for your reply to my post.

MiniMeGreen profile image
MiniMeGreen

So here is the very informative meta-analysis paper, most cardiologists don't really like it researchgate.net/publicatio....

There is another one with a bit longer survival times (10 days in median!) pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/310...

Here are some papers on Myasthenia Gravis and Statins:

academia.edu/37585770/Effec...

academia.edu/65098633/Stati...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

gov.uk/drug-safety-update/s...

stiff19 profile image
stiff19

I was on statins and hydroxy when my mg symptoms started and commence (undiagnosed still though two have suspected but will not diagnose because of bloods )

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