I read about episodes of high HR Af and the symptoms but nothing really fits with me
I get what I can describe as a butterfly in my left side of my chest my HR goes up but they don’t last more than 10-30 mins now
. Before tI had my HR testing kit I couldn’t measure the HR but I had episodes of a feeling if suffocating or drowning and I have been out on meds to control my HR to keep it lower Bisoprolol and I have Amiodarone and this doesn’t happen but before I had to walk around my garden at night trying to duck air in
Does or did any other members with AF suffer with this suffocating feeling amd I mean a feeling that only 10-20 per cent if the oxygen you need is in your lungs these symptoms last at times 6 hours where your gasping for air or is this something different alongside the AF
One other question how do Heart flutters and AF compare or differ
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NLGA
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It can be difficult to describe all the different sensations associated with all the different heart conditions so are you asking what is the difference between Atrial Fibrillation and Atrial Flutter. With AF (atrial fibrillation) the heart rate is always irregular, often fast but not always. Whereas with atrial flutter, the heart rate is regular, but always fast, well in excess of 100bpm……l
Thank you So if mine is over 100 3-4 times a week but normal at other times so I would have artrial fibrillation ? The feeling of gasping for air for 4-6 hours is that common and I mean sicking air in like your life depends on it
I’m not familiar with the feelings of suffocation that you describe, that sounds as though it could be more related to asthma. As I said earlier, if your heart rate is over 100 bpm but irregular, then it’s likely to be atrial fibrillation. If it’s fast but regular, it’s atrial flutter……
FJ - that's not quite right, at least as far as I know and in my own case. My heart rate with atrial flutter could be any ratio of the atrial rate of just over 300. It was often 155, but then105, and even 60. It wasn't always racing, but always a regular fixed ratio of 300 and always a stepwise change.
I can only speak for myself but no I have never had a suffocating feeling with AF. I’ve been breathless and felt that suffocating feeling when I had pneumonia or awoke during the night because of sleep apnea, before it was treated, but not with Lone AF/AFl.
It could be caused by many things. You can get that feeling in a panic attack if you start to breath too quickly and too fast - it’s really important when that happens to consciously slow your breathing right down and take much deeper breaths.
If this doesn’t happen to you then go back and talk to your doctor about possible causes.
AF and AFl (atrial flutter) are different conditions - AF is an irregular beat of the left atria and AFl is usually a regular but very fast beat of the right atria. You can have both at the same time. I always felt much worse in Atrial Flutter, usually because the heart rate was much faster. If you are taking Amiodarone I would imagine it is for AF?
Thank you See you mention pneumonia now this feeling of suffocating started late March I was in hospital with a high HR of 170 and 145 in May then in June when they decided on AF but my GP had told me it was asthma my problem so I was taking ventolin way to often now in July I had X-ray and it came to light my lungs had bacteria so I was put on amoxicillin. Now I don’t know if my suffocating feeling was pneumonia but if so how did the hospital not pick up on it as I was in 5 days while my HR dropped
On a first read of your post I'm wondering whether anxiety is contributing to your symptoms. I've been a long time sufferer of fast AF and flutter and have had ablations for both but have not experienced such prolonged symptoms.
With what you describe I would certainly seek advice from your GP or cardiologist.
I note that you are taking 15mg Bisoprolol. That's a pretty high dose. I have a bad enough time coping with 5 mg but we're all different. Usually 10mg is the maximum dose although we do hear of higher doses such as yours.
AF can be described as irregularly irregular and is normally fast . I describe it as akin to a morse code signal! Atrial Flutter is a fast regular beat . Personally I found A flutter more difficult to contend with as it was unrelenting. If you feel your pulse on the inside if your wrist you will recognise the different rhythms. Flutter can normally only be properly diagnosed with an ECG where it appears as a saw tooth type of wave.
PS- have you had an echocardiogram or scan? If not and your symptoms persist then push for further investigations. I agree that 15mg of Bisoprolol is a very big dose and could be also be a cause of the feelings.
The suffocating has gone this was in March to June then I was put in the Bisoprolol but only 3 weeks later I was put on the amoxicillin. But I don’t understand how if they were triggered by The bacteria in the lungs it way noticed when I was in hospital the month before for 5 days
Timing for symptoms and correlating them. Your info in your original post was sparse with no timings & no mention of asthma. Co conditions and timings of when meds were started help.
Sorry about late reply, I was out. Your post gave the impression that you were suffering from breathlessness etc currently but it turns out that you are curious about symptoms in the past which have now been resolved. I know you have given lots of info before but people don’t have time to go back and look (well some keen peeps do!) so we are going on what you wrote today which was a bit confusing to me and had info missing. Lots of people assume we know much more about them than we do so it’s frustrating when we spend a long time on an answer that’s unhelpful - you are not the only one 😬 I do understand the ‘butterfly’ bit, it’s why I’m Buffafly 😀🦋
Hi Wilsond can I ask was you gasping trying to draw air or more like a just breathing a bit heavier than normal as it was frightening what happened to me
When you say ‘flutters’ I think you mean a ‘fluttery feeling’ in your heart area? That could be AF. Have you got a Kardia and an oximeter? If not I would get both asap. The Kardia will tell you if you are in AF (but not AFlutter which normally but not always presents as a high heart rate). The oximeter will tell you if you are short of oxygen. I have just been reading a helpful article on ‘how to get diagnosed promptly and accurately’ - written by a cancer patient who had been fobbed off until nearly too late. She felt a ‘symptom diary’ would have got attention much sooner and would be helpful to doctors in any situation. You need to keep a note of symptoms, when, where (eg stressful situation/resting peacefully in bed), how long and if anything helped or made it worse. If you at least think what the doctor would be likely to ask before you see them it helps. A new symptom is important, one ‘on repeat’ for years may still be serious - my IBS once turned out to be a bowel abscess - but it helps the doctor to know if there’s a change. Also if the symptoms followed closely on a new or increased medication.
Yes I will thanks . It’s hard as I have no information on the reason as it doesn’t sound like AF but I had a high HR for the 5 days in hospital could it have been the bacteria in my lungs that was detected 2 or so months after as my echo, X-ray blood tests isn’t to bad which makes me think it was heart related
The trouble is that the words we use mean something to us but others may read something else so unless we can find universally accepted terminology you will find it difficult to make yourself clear. Accepted language are palpitations, fast or slow heart rate, irregular heart rate, skipped beats, extra beats - as examples.
Kardia and oximeter + symptom diary and record. That’s evidence that doctors understand. ‘Butterfly in my chest’ is not precise enough.
I understand exactly what you mean ,I have AF which is basically symptomless, but I also suffer from anxiety, and especially with all the restrictions from Covid (relaxed now is South Africa where I live)) my anxiety levels grew until I have almost become agoraphobic. As soon as the butterfly starts fluttering, I take an Alzam tablet (prescribed for anxiety, but possibly restricted in the UK if that is where you are) and it quickly settles. I do not have a lot of gadgetry, as I feel with my anxiety, use of these things would turn me into a full blown hypochondriac. I have a couple of wrist BP monitors because I have thin arms and upper arm cuffs are a nuisance - they are usually accurate with Heart Rate and registering arrhythmias and if mine goes above say 106 ,I take 1,25 mg Biso and it swiftly goes down. I am also Asthmatic (mild) with overlapping chronic bronchitis, so my cardio only permits me to take Symbicort for that, he believes other inhalers are bad for the heart. My pulse is usually quite normal when I have the 'butterflies'. it is definitely anxiety - perhaps you should consider that as a possibility.
My heart can flip flop between afib and flutter, and as I am asymptomatic it feels the same. Be aware that in a small number of people, amiodarone and dronedarone can cause pulmonary toxicity, also known as cryptogenic organising pneumonia, where you become increasingly hypoxic (short of oxygen). I know, as it happened to me and the case paper is on the Internet. Symptoms: a dry non-productive cough, "Velcro" breathing sounds in a different chest location than pneumonia, the condition does not respond to antibiotics. In the later stages, SpO2 (blood oxygen) does not increase with oxygen by nasal canula at 4 litres a minute. You need to check your SpO2 with an oximeter, but be aware that some medications can cause Rydors (reduced blood flow in your fingers). If there is any doubt, ask your GP to speak to the North Bristol Lung Institute at Southmead Hospital, who treated me and whose Consultants wrote the paper. I am still here as my GP measured my SpO2 at 76% (after twice being discharged from hospital), and the team at North Bristol who put me on 25 litres a minute of oxygen and worked through the night. It only affects 6 in 100,000 people on that medication, and surprisingly few clinicians have heard of it, or misdiagnose it as community acquired pneumonia.
The sensation you describe as butterfly on left of chest is descriptive of the sensations many feel during an AF episode. Mine is 'Trapped humming bird', others talk about wriggling worms. So to me that sounds like AF. The breathlessness you've had in the past, I can't comment. Our breathing pattern does change during AF and you can feel breathlessness but I've not heard others speaking about gasping for air. That sounds much more like a lung issue to me (such ss pneumonia, which can be hidden). But you said your oxygen levels were normal so perhaps, if you still feel worried about this, it might be worth learning some relaxation techniques. Because as others have said above - sometimes panic and anxiety can have that effect too.
Thank you for your advice the gasping was March to mid summer which included 3 visits to the hospital 11 days all the ficus was in AF yet it want to the 16th of July another X-ray was taken that on 2nd checking showed bacteria in the lungs this was noticed in the 8th of August via a call from my GP so I’m guessing as it was missed and I was taking ventolin like it was going out of fashion the HR was going crazy as it was 170 my asthma nurse told me I was developing more asthma symptoms amd it wasn’t in control which I now think was Pneumonia in tne lungs.
What you are describing sounds very much like a condition known as " air hunger" which is not the same as asthma. There are various causes . If you put it into Google you will get more info . Can you think of any thing that happened at the beginning of when this came on?.
From what I can pick out of your posts it seems obvious that you suffered an infection in your lungs which, as you would expect, has caused extreme breathlessness. On having the infection cleared by antibiotics you were able to breathe normally again.This episode is unlikely to have any direct connection with your heart symptoms.
Thank you Mugsy that’s the conclusion I am coming to . The thing I don’t get is after a 5 day stay in May and 6 day stay in June in hospital for AF and countless blood test and various X rays it want picked up that I had a lung bacterial infection . Although my AF was diagnosed which was good . I mean I was in a ward of 4 the whole time with what could be pneumonia also with breathing difficulties surely heart and lungs are the two things to focus on
Hi, this feeling of suffocation could be the amiodarone. It can have quite toxiceffects on some people. My brother has permanently damaged lungs after being on amiodarone for 18 months.
Perhaps you could discus alternatives with your doc.
Yes they told me it was my asthma playing up and to hoover the house and clean more and take a steroid for my pollen allergy I told them it’s not asthma as I have lived with that since the age of 7 but they increased my seritide dose it wasn’t to they run a ECG on me that they discovered my AF . If I’m honest they didn’t listen to me when I said at times I can’t w risky breath
In order to diagnose AF at the hospital, they must have seen and interpreted an ECG at some point, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to diagnose it. The only way they can diagnose AF is via an ECG. It’s possible you had two things going on and they should have given you more info. There will be notes from your hospital visit and your GP should be able to access them and give you more information about exactly what they thought was going on when you were there.
Yes I have had maybe 6-8 ECG and they have seen AF I Believe they missed the bacteria in my lungs causing breathing issues then me taking Ventolin as the Gp was focussed on asthma was the reason I ended up with a 170 hr and the AF was discovered But how can they miss that after 12 days in total in hospital
I don’t know. It’s hard to tell what happened and unfortunately you might never find out. The problem might have been that a cardiac ward focuses on the AF rather than what caused it….It’s a hard one and you may be causing yourself more anxiety trying to work it all out. I’ve been there believe me, trying to work out ‘what ifs’. All I can say, is try and move forward and control what’s happening now as best you can, as you seem to be doing,
You will need some way to measure the "butterfly feeling" as that is usually caused by ectopic beats (i.e. palpitations). In themselves these are harmless to the heart in the sense that they don't cause any degeneration or weakening (most often, anyway). A good way to measure what is happening is an ECG, which your doctor will perhaps do. Alternatively you could use a smart watch (e.g. Apple Watch Series 4 on) or a Kardia device or similar.
What you describe does sound like the effects of a combination of the mild breathlessness and chest discomfort that these arrhythmias can cause along with the extra anxiety that naturally this brings along in its wake. When I had atrial flutter, I can relate very closely to what you say, although I wouldn't have said "suffocating" even though, if you had asked me at the time, I might have agreed with you!
Flutter and fibrillation are in the atria (the top of the heart) and, in themselves, can't be felt, only the effects on the left ventricle (the left lower chamber). This, and the valves opening and closing, create the pulse and the feelings we get of a heart beat, skipping, missing, bounding, pulsing, etc.
Hi NLGAI do not know where you live but if you can get to Oxford and see a Kim Rajappan he can diagnose A.F or Flutter and perform a simple procedure to relive the Flutter, in and out in the day.
He completely cured my flutter and I have not had any repercussions.
If you need further info on K. R please get in touch
If the x-rays picked up a bacterial infection they would have picked up clots from any cause. Unfortunately, there are some who will constantly blame covid vaccines for anything.Sounds like you had a combination of things going on at the same time so it could have been one thing or a mixture. You may never find out so try not to dwell on it too much.
Thank you Ducky yes I had a few X rays 4 or 5 so that’s good news . I guess I need to understand pneumonia a little better and if I possibly could have had that earlier than when it was seen as it was missed on the 16 July by the A and E doctor yet seen by my GP 8th of August or at least by someone who informed my GP
I would think it strange for them to miss pneumonia as, I'm no expert, but I think it shows up very clearly as a mass of fuzziness (technical term 😊) on an x-ray.Perhaps you could ask your GP to have a look at the x-rays again for you.
Yes it’s very strange but on the 16th when they took it the A and E doctor told me it’s hayfever there is no infection so he did miss it as it took nearly 3 weeks to come to light and I hadn’t had another X ray since
Hi there, I think it is the bisoprolol causing this. I had to come off it as I felt like I was gasping for air and couldn’t breathe. This happened most days. Used to really worry me then someone on here told me to try and get it changed and try verapamil. My breathing is fine now.
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