Is anyone using danshen?

[malaekahana]

I have begun acupuncture treatment as a prophylactic, and my Chinese acupuncturist recommended danshen (more specifically Fu Fang Dan Shen). Does anyone have any experience with this? Thanks for any light you can shed ...

[BobD Volunteer]

Since it is supposd to "thin" blood probably not a good idea if you have AF and are anticoagulated. Always discuss any supplements or herbal products with your doctor or phamacist in case they conflict with your medicines.

[malaekahana in reply to BobD]

Yeah, that was kind of where I was leaning. And I am definitely going to discuss it with my pcp. Thanks for the reminder.

[hayrisdnet in reply to malaekahana]

How did your conversation with pcp go on danshen?

[malaekahana in reply to hayrisdnet]

I have not met with him yet. I decided to shelve the issue for now, see how things go, and bring it up during my semi-annual checkup in a couple of months.

[Hidden]

I just wonder why anyone would choose to use this (a herb believed to 'thin the blood', or prevent clotting) in an untitrated dose via a herb most people know little about, when it is versus a medication which has gone through rigorous testing and with a track record (an extremely long one for warfarin) and the benefit of being quickly out of your system with a newer NOAC such as Riveroxaban?

If I was in a tight spot and had been told no medication was available to help me, I might (and that's only might), consider a last ditch attempt to help myself through an unregulated Chinese herb, but certainly not when a tried and tested drug which definitely does the job, is available!

[CDreamer in reply to Hidden]

To answer your question generally - because there are so many people who don’t trust that pharmaceuticals help.

[Auriculaire in reply to Hidden]

Chinese herbs have been "tried and tested" for hundreds if not thousands of years in practice of TCM Some of them will have also undergone RCTs in China. Not only that treatment is on an individual basis determined by the TCM practitioner which is more than can be said for modern pharmaceuticals with the one size fits all prescribing that leaves some overdosed and others underdosed. Nobody has been on a DOAC for more than ten years which leaves plenty of opportunity for long term problems to show up.

[Hidden in reply to Auriculaire]

I have lived in China (some years ago) and tried several ‘cures’ but sadly never came to trust that there was more than anecdotal evidence for many of them and actually deplore the use of some ingredients which do not stop at simple herbs. But of course it’s a matter of personal choice. It’s absolutely true that the Chinese people have great faith in them! I still prefer to place mine in pharma which although it does not always get it right, does have some large and effective weapons in its armoury.

[Auriculaire in reply to Hidden]

Most of the pharma medicines that have been in everyday use for many years have nothing other than anecdotal evidence to back up their use. It is quite recently that RCTs have become widespread and these are not at all foolproof . You only have to look at the history of statin trials. After the considerable tightening of the rules regarding the conduct of clinical trials in the early 2000s no statin trial has ever achieved the "wonder drug" results the early trials managed. I agree about the use of animal products in TCM. Even if the likes of bear bile and rhino horn worked they should be banned.

[malaekahana]

Thanks for your perspective. I am currently on Eliquis, and I would welcome using no drugs at all, but I agree that the analytics weigh in favor of the drug ...

[CDreamer in reply to malaekahana]

Trouble is that there are no large studies on herbs to prove safety and efficacy in large enough amounts so it is an unkown. I will avoid meds as much as possible if there is any plausible chance and evidence it will help at least as much as pharmaceuticals without causing harm.

I looked into alternatives regarding anticoaugulants and came to the conclusion that in this case the pharmaceuticals have it and I couldn’t find anything with any data that came close to satisfying me that it would do the job and be safe. I’ve had absolutely no problems with Apixaban but need to have liver and kidney function tests before you start and have them monitored 6 monthly.

[hayrisdnet in reply to CDreamer]

1. I am curious how the discussion went with your GP?2. I believe the D-dimer test can be used to measure effectiveness (something to consider).

[CDreamer in reply to hayrisdnet]

Are you sure it was me? I haven’t seen my GP or know anything about a D-dimmer test.

[CDreamer]

webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingre...

The alert says there is a major interaction with Digoxin

Major Interaction

Do not take this combination

Digoxin (Lanoxin) interacts with DANSHEN

Digoxin (Lanoxin) helps the heart beat more strongly. Danshen also seems to affect the heart. Taking danshen along with digoxin can increase the effects of digoxin and increase the risk of side effects. Do not take danshen if you are taking digoxin (Lanoxin) without talking to your healthcare professional.

[Kingst]

There are several herbal compounds being sold in China for AFIB that are controlled by their government agencies comparable to the FDA, etc. I ordered one of these compounds direct from a Chinese government regulated pharmacy in Shanghai. It took 6 weeks to get the product and I was excited but cautious about it. I followed instructions in taking it, and within 2 days I felt miserable. My energy level was so low I could hardly get up out of a chair. So I stopped taking it and waited several weeks, thinking maybe something else was going on previously. I took it again for 2 days and felt worse than the first time. Lesson learned!! I don't take prescription drugs for my very mild AFIB but rather government regulated nattokinase from Singapore. It works beautifully to keep my blood thin without side effects.

[CDreamer in reply to Kingst]

I know that Natto is popular and some studies done in Japan but how do you test and know they are affective? How often are you monitored?

My understanding is that it is far more than a ‘blood thinner’ and more akin to an anti platelet and inhibits collagen. It is therefore performs a very different function to an anticoagulant.

I did consider this about 10 years ago as an alternative to anticoagulants but after doing some digging and talking to one of the top UK doctors on coagulation at a Patient’s Day back in 2014, decided it was not an option, for me.

I believe this tendency to call both anti platelets and anticoagulants ‘Blood Thinners’ is not only misleading and confusing but could be dangerous because there are many people who really shouldn’t use anti platelets and I’m one of them.

Anti platelets are useful for breaking up clots after they have formed and good for CVD whereas anticoagulants help prevent clots forming in the first place so better for AF.

I’m all for ‘natural’ medicine but much rather eat the whole food - fermented soy bean -, which the body is able to process much more effectively and unless you are sensitive to soy or fermented foods, more palatable.

The supplements are to me be as problematic as pharmaceuticals.