On no I was wondering what the chimpanzee involvement was in the AstraZeneca vaccine and have just read this:
The Oxford–AstraZeneca vaccine is made from a cold-causing adenovirus that was isolated from the stool of chimpanzees and modified so that it no longer replicates in cells. When injected, the vaccine instructs human cells to produce the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein — the immune system’s main target in coronaviruses.
I wanted the Pfizer jab, if only I'd known this I would have refused the Astra Zenica one and waited in hope of getting the Pfizer. Yes, I'm sure a lot of you don't give a damn, but I do! I'm now imagining rows of cages where the chimpanzees are being given a cold virus then fed loads to make them poo more so this adenovirus can be collected from it.
Someone tell me I'm wrong please. 😪
Jean
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Testing drugs etc on animals is an entirely different subject. However, to conflate it with a genetically modified cold virus is pushing it. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned 'genetically modified' or you will be calling it a Frankenstein vaccine next.
Hopefully, now we have left the EU we will be able to genetically edit crops as nature does to save heavy use of pesticides, produce healthier food and so on. The rest of the world has been eating GM crops for decades. Even in the EU animals have been fed with GM grain.
I don't like animals being used to test drugs. It might be a lot better if we tested them on humans instead. Who'd like to volunteer?
I'm afraid there aren't enough child murderers. The people who want to get rid of animal testing need to put themselves forward. I would volunteer if they'd have me!
Genetic modification of crops had not led to less use of herbicides. As far as glyphsate is concerned it has led to more use. The plants are genetically modified to be resistant to glyphosate then the fields can be sprayed with glyphosate so that all the other plants ie weeds are killed. Glyphosate has been classed as a carcinogen. It has recently been discovered that it damages the microbes in our guts. Grain fed cattle have less of certain amino acids . Cows evolved to eat grasses and other plants that grow in fields. Selective breeding as happens slowly and by accident in nature has been practised in an accelerated form for centuries and is not forbidden by the EU. It is not the same as performing genetic modifications by gene editing techniques that could never happen naturally.
Now we have left the EU we will be able to do gene editing. However, I think there is a lot of misinformation about GM crops but I don't want to get into a discussion on it.
For a long time they tried to transfer the nitrogen fixation you get with peas, beans and clovers and it seemed impossible but it isn't now.
That publication is well-known for its provocative reporting. Having worked in the pharmaceutical industry, the language the journalist uses doesn't fit with my experience.
The use of animals for drug research is an ethical dilemma and one that raises powerful arguments. So far as I understand matters, drug research today uses non-animal testing or is moving towards that goal, wherever possible.
Hi Jean, it’s a misery-making thought, isn’t it? 😢 I don’t think it was like that - but I agree, I live with an uneasy tension between my need for medicines/vaccines and the suffering to animals that has often happened for my safety. While I can avoid this at all costs for beauty products etc, I still take my medicines without researching the background. (Maybe I should...)
If it helps at all regarding the AstraZeneca jab you’ve had, I was told that the chimp part (I don’t know what -if any - cruelty was involved in it) was already over prior to the beginning of the pandemic. It wasn’t specifically done for the Covid vaccine. This article gives a bit of an outline:
As an ardent animal lover, I share your concerns. The daughter of one of our friends works at a research and development facility in Cambridge and she says that people’s imagination bears no resemblance to the reality. When and if animals are used, which is far much rarer than it used to be, the rules and regulations are so stringent and their welfare is so good that any hardship is rare, certainly in the UK........
I'm in the let's all be positive party... Covid numbers are plummeting, we have a chance of normality by summer, no inflated death tolls , no families losing loved ones, sorrow, misery depression, the list is endless . Sometimes the cost outweighs the method, not always a good idea to read too much when your entrenched in a war, and make no bones we are in the fight of our lives this century as a race , my conscience can cope with it all, it can't cope with seeing days and months of people losing loved ones and the misery of the health issues of those that survive.
I think covid numbers are plummeting because of the lock-down, more than because of the vaccine. The majority of older people over 70, who have had the jab, are the ones isolating and most are waiting for their follow up 12 week booster.
I've also read recently that something like 40% of people who die with covid caught it in hospital. I'm far away from your way of thinking Ian, but we can agree to disagree.
Happy to agree to disagree Jean, the "lock down" has been a feeble one at best with life still going on for most this time ,as for the jab, it will enable life to return to normal by providing immunity to those most at risk, enabling us that can get on with life, to do just that, and restore the economy and stop us all becoming bankrupt nation with all the health implications that entails . I read stuff every day, half of its sensationalist rubbish, half truths and distorted facts and muddled data led by media just to talk about something newsworthy .
Personally, I've lost family and friends through this vile virus over the past year, it doesn't differentiate on moral values , so whatever it takes il choose survival over serious disease or death.
As for numbers falling because of lock down, I only partly agree on that, it's the same as last time, Covid appears that it comes in waves and drops in number prior to lock downs announced, the lock downs merely slow the hospital intake, and don't allow them to be totally overwhelmed.
The vaccines will stop serious illness and death, that to me is the most important thing, and I'm happy I've had my first shot in January , also today they say 67 % immunity is offered within 3 weeks of the first shot! , il take those odds all day long over a few staying indoors and praying.
As any serious life or death time in history hard choices are made, I can happily live with the consequences of mine.
Thanks Jean, been a tough year, be glad when it's moving into better weather and we get a chance to live again, tough for us all I think, hope your well and doing OK x
"There is a mismatch between the data published by the authorities and the reality on the ground.
They have three sources of information, besides the emails and adverse event reports they receive through the Internet.
These three sources are Israeli news site Ynet, the Israeli Health Ministry database, and the U.S. federal Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database.
In January 2021, there were 3,000 records of vaccine adverse events, including 2,900 for mRNA vaccines.
Compared to other years, mortality is 40 times higher.
On February 11, a Ynet article presented data related to vaccination. The authors of the Nakim article claim to have debunked this analysis based on data published by Ynet itself: “We took the data by looking at mortality during the vaccination period, which spans 5 weeks. By analyzing these data, we arrived at startling figures that attribute significant mortality to the vaccine.”
The authors say “vaccinations have caused more deaths than the coronavirus would have caused during the same period.”
Haim Yativ and Dr. Seligmann declare that for them, “this is a new Holocaust,” in face of Israeli authority pressure to vaccinate citizens."
Covid cases are also going down because on the 20th Jan the WHO advised that magnification cycles of more than 30 should not be used for the PCR test. This is important because the larger the number of cycles the more likely a positive test is declared but also the more likely that this is not active virus or even covid virus. Before the WHO advice he number of cycles could be as high as 45. To get a better idea about this you need to read about how the test works and it's drawbacks. The man who invented it apparently said it should not be used for diagnostic purposes!
Good point about the cycles. Anytime someone is diagnosed with the virus s/he should ask for their cycle threshold number. Anything over 35 is not considered infectious. Here is more about that.
In little noticed July interview, Fauci warned that widely used COVID tests may pick up 'dead' virus
I am truly hoping that in the not too distant future there will be more sophisticated ways of developing medicines and vaccines without resorting to any animal testing. Surely its not beyond the capability of scientists in the future to be able to devise superior methods. Perhaps society will move forward sufficiently to ensuring it essential to not test on the defenceless.
Let's hope that happens! I still think that people who commit murder for no reason, other than their own gratification and those who treat children or animals so cruelly, could be put to better use than in a prison.
Totally agree Jean. Prison appears to be similar to a holiday camp these days, with all meals, a chance to study for a degree, and medical help on tap. It’s a better life than some pensioners have. All wrong IMO.
That isn’t how the vaccine was developed and no animals were harmed!
“We don't actually have any chimpanzees involved at all in the process of making the vaccine, because it is all about the virus, rather than animals it might more commonly infect," he concluded.” Oxford team making the virus
I understand your dilemma, Jean. Because I’m vegan and taking lots of meds, so I’m always conscious than vulnerable animals are used and abused (killed or otherwise) in name of science for the wellbeing and luxurious comfort of humans. I live in constant dilemma and my only comfort is, when I’m feeling very sick, useless and not living, thinking in my only death. We are part of a miserable world which we cannot change. 😱
I wanted the Pfizer vaccine because it appears to have a higher protection rate and is also said have better protection against the newer Kent and African virus's.
I have read that the virus naturally occurs in chimpanzees, but I understood that Astra-Zeneca grow it without the animal vector being needed. It would seem bizarre if they had to collect chimpanzee excrement to produce it!
But are you saying that, were a cure for Covid found that did involve using animals, that the world should reject that opportunity to cure the disease and continue to suffer the consequences until or if a non-animal means was found? That would be an ethical dilemma, indeed.
Hmm, that's a difficult question and I really don't know Steve. I just think that if we more intelligent humans can perform medical experiments on animals, then would it be right if superior beings came to earth and experimented on us?
"For the greater good" is not an easy way to decide ethics, for sure, but I suppose it must be a part of the argument.
As for us being used for experimentation by aliens, well, I don't suppose that's a good way to decide, either.
But, I do have problems with the way some use animals. Many people use pets, for example, as if they were a teddy bears existing purely for human pleasure. If we treated people as oppressively as some people treat pets, however seemingly benignly, then there would be uproar.
'We don't actually have any chimpanzees involved at all in the process of making the vaccine, because it is all about the virus, rather than animals it might more commonly infect.'
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I thought once an adenovirus virus or any virus was extracted (from poo, blood, whatever) it could be cultured indefinitely in a lab under the right conditions? They don't need endless numbers of Chimps in cages
I think you're right Coco51 - it was initially isolated there but after that it's all cell culture.
I have a great deal of faith in the methods and ethics used in the development of all the COVID-19 vaccines. Even with the pressures of COVID-19, they all had to follow the regulations and the UK currently has some of the tightest regulations in the world on animal testing.
(I know we shouldn't joke about these things and I know Jeanie had real and valid concerns, but my relatives who received the Astrazenica jab have been going on about this for days)
I have learned something today. I also learned something when I was helping my daughter pack her hospital bag (at a distance) on Saturday. I offered some toiletries and checked that they had not been tested on animals. She told me that 'not tested on animals' is misleading, they have to be 'cruelty-free'. For instance, Nivea isn't tested on animals in Europe but it it is when it is exported to China.
A few flu like symptoms have crept up on me since late morning. A bit uncomfortable around the joints and slight headache but I’ve just done the washing up, so that’s all good then😉
Not all prisoners Tommo, just the people who murder others purely for their own gratification, we hear about children and babies being killed and people being unbelievably cruel to animals, then leaving them to suffer. Those people!
Jean, I think once you have a virus you don’t need to keep getting it from the chimp you can then replicate it in the lab using culture media. The original chimp stool could have been taken from the wild.
More worthy of testing cosmetics on animals, which is a widespread practice. This is being done in an absolute crisis situation. I agree that it conjures up a sad image and one that I certainly don't want to dwell on. Please bear in mind, that if everyone were to choose their preferred vaccine, there would not be enough to go round!
The Pfizer one was tested on animals apparently. I'm more concerned I may have been injected with chimp poo and who the heck discovered that was a good ingredient 😳
My daughter had the AstraZeneca jab at the weekend and she's been running a temperature of 40 degrees for 2 days with a very elevated heart rate. She doesn't suffer from AF though so not a problem for her and she's only 39 so will get the 67% protection.
My wife had the Pfizer as she is a key worker, and no such complications. From my observations on the forum it seems like the AstraZeneca is most likely to cause us AF suffers more problems, especially if you are in the older age group.
Hi Roy, yes that's the same conclusion I've also come to re the AZ vaccine.
My granddaughter, training in dentistry for her last year and her university friends all had quite strong symptoms for 24hrs after the AZ and I had the same, plus I was very aware of my heart bouncing around for a few days. Was determined not to check what it was doing though as the more attention I give my heart the more it plays up.
I heard someone say that the second Pfizer jab is worse and the second AZ one fine. Don't know how true that is, keep it a secret from your your wife though.
Jean
Hi jeanjeannie
Slightly unclear about your post.
Are you concerned that chimpanzees were locked up 'in rows of cages' and force fed, or that the vaccine is derived from chimpanzee's poo? Or both?
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