Vitamin overdose?: I am a 79 year young... - AF Association

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Vitamin overdose?

golfcrazy
golfcrazy

I am a 79 year young female and for the last 5 years have been on different Meds for

AF. First of all Warfarin now Edoxaban. The only reason I came off warfarin was the nuisance of having to for INR checks. The other medication I am on is Amlodipine, Bisoporal and Paracetomol/ Di hydrocodeine for my SI joint pain. I can't seem to get the right Meds. to keep my blood pressure level. it tends to go too low. I think this is what is causing me to be light headed and sleepy all the time and of course I tend to think it is age . I am on 2.5 mg of Bisoprol , 60mg of edoxaban and 10 mg of amlodipine. I have night sweats and have tried every herbal cures for this but nothing helps.So is it wise to take Magnesium and other Vitamins while on prescription meds.? What is the alternative to Bisoprolol? Grateful for any advice.I take HTP 5 and I feel they help my mood.

Golf crazy

14 Replies
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Hi golfcrazy. I spent four years on bisoprolol, mostly on the lowest dose and was breathless and lacking in energy all the time. In May I was switched to Nebivolol and have more energy, can breathe and walk and I feel much, much better - I’m pushing 75. Have a chat with your GP and explain how you feel and ask if a change of beta blocker would help. Nebivolol doesn’t influence lung tissue which is why it is prescribed for asthmatics.

It’s always best to discuss supplements with your GP or pharmacist, who know your health history. Many of us on this forum take magnesium - I take mag citrate, with my cardiologist’s approval and vit C and D - also with approval.

We are not medically trained so we cannot make recommendations or encourage you to make any changes to your prescribed medication but we can come up with some suggestions which you could then discuss with your doctor. Two of the drugs you mention will effectively reduce your blood pressure (Bisoprolol and Amlodipine) so maybe you should discuss your current dosages with your doctor to see if any adjustments should be made. I have no direct knowledge of Edoxaban, but generally (but not always) anticoagulants do not cause unpleasant side effects and I've never heard of them having any adverse impact on blood pressure. If anything, they generally make folk feel more relaxed because of the reasons you mention relating to INR.

If you want to find out more about the benefits Magnesium supplements can offer, I suggest you check out Dr Sanjay Gupta's videos either on YouTube or by searching the posts submitted by Steve112. I take Magnesium Taurate produced by BioCare and have found it beneficial for me. If I were you, as a precaution I would check with your pharmacist just make sure that Magnesium will not conflict with your existing medication as we are unable to comment on that.

If, as with most people, your current medication has evolved over time, I think you should seek a review, but you need to be confident that you GP is the best person to do that. Generally more specialist knowledge is required in which case it would be better if could ask to see a cardiologist.....hope this helps....it's always nice to talk to a young 79 year old female!!

Hi golf crazy,

Just taking a little more of a 'Devils Advocate' view of your meds from a 74 year young and practising bus driver.

It would seem that the anticoagulants, Warfarin and Edoxaban don't seem to be a problem.

So, why were you prescribed BISOPROLOL ? This med can be prescribed for lowering blood pressure, and I have often read on here that people take it for that reason. My view is that it is a bit of a savage drug for BP control.

That said, as far as I am aware BISOPROLOL is a drug of choice for controlling heart rate where rate control is the option preferred by cardiologists in initial treatment of AF. I am on 5 mg of the stuff daily and have been for nearly 9 years now. No big deal, and it keeps my heart rate steady at 63 to 67 bpm.

Moving on .....blood pressure. I would have thought that a different treatment of BP issues might be initially with Ramipril, perhaps if necessary, aided and abetted by Felodopine which as far as I can see is the same family of drugs as Amlodipine. As an example I am on 10 mg Ramipril and 2.5 mg of Felodopine and my BP is pretty constant at 126/70 and has been for many years.

Now, you talk about Si joint pain. I am assuming here we are talking about Sacrilliac joint pain and your medication of Paracetomol/ Di hydrocodeine. Again I am assuming this pain is golf related, perhaps associated with your golf (past and/or present) swing. Always a bit hard to get a fix on pain as its all things to all people but I would have thought your meds here is a bit of a low dose for Si joint pain control. Then again I am assuming your Si joint pain isn't being referred from another part of your skeletel structure, like knee or hip.

For me, my Si joint pain evolved from youth when I was a high jumper and long jumper. My predominant take off leg was my right leg, no surprise then that in my 50's I tore my right knee cartilege and had it removed and cleaned out. Surgeon at the time noted the onset of Osteoarthritis. Got another 15 years of life out of the old bones until the Si joint pain became crippling and chronic - only to be eased by the massive consumption of CoCodomol 30/500 and finally a partial right knee replacement. The brilliant surgeon then realigned the geometry of the right side of my body, knee, hip and Si joint when he removed the osteoarthritic part of the knee bone and put in the spare part in my right knee. Job done, pain free ever since, both from knee and Si joint.

To be honest, and if you haven't already done so, I would seek some initial advice on the cause of your Si joint pain. Unless you have a mechanical defect with that joint the problem may well be referred from another part of your skeletel structure. Perhaps a visit to an Osteopath, Chiropractor or even a Podiatrist to get your walk, your gait analysed .... this may well extend to the mechanics of your walking, hip, knee ankle and foot because if your geometry is stuffed then your Si joint issues will worsen.

Well, this rambling tome probably doesn't do much but hopefully it will help you step back and look a bit more analytically at the issues. I do have to say though, I totally agree with Flapjack .... it is probably time for a serious review of your medication .... in other words, excluding anticoagulants and the Paracetomol stuff, is the rest of the stuff the most appropriate meds for the job that needs doing - i.e. BP and heart rate control.

Just curious ........ you don't say anything about how AF influences your lifestyle. Hopefully it is well controlled and is not a problem.

May the force be with you.

John

Hidden
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Hi, I was on the exact same meds except I take Apixaban instead of warfarin, I felt terrible so I stopped the beta blocker and amplodepine and I feel great ( don't do this yourself) I've been checking my bp and it's ideal..just goes to show docs don't know it all, ps I've only ever had one episode of atrial fibrillation but they put me on all those meds. Good luck X also bisoprolol is awful, I couldn't function..

After 2 years of unexplained heart palpitations, Amlodipine has been deemed the culprit. I no longer take Amlodipine and now have almost no palpitations. I, too, had a slow heartbeat. A pacemaker fixed that and I now have 70+ beats per minute - instead of 30/40. I am 76 years of age. My mom lived to 93 with her pacemaker.

Golfcrazy,

Good day! I used to be on metropolol which is very similar to bisoprolo. I could barely walk across my office. shortness of breath super low heart rate - 52-62. Felt like I needed to use those motorized chairs in supermarkets (didn't though) I was way better when I quit using it. I currently take ditiezem(cardiziem) 240mg 2x a day which has it's own side effects which I dislike, BUT... It keeps my heart rate around 70-82. My side effects are swelling feet, some small brown spots near feet / lower legs. I control that by taking hawthorne capsules 800mg 3x a day which appears to work for me. Your mileage3may vary. I take 800-1200 mg of magnesium every other day. I used to be on warfarin too, but decided to go natural and use Natokinase 2400fu 1x /day, every so often I take 2x. I also take turmeric and vitamin E and coq10. These are my combination blood thinners. The Natokinase is scientifically proven to even dissolve blood clots. I have even got to the point where I bought a used motorcycle and FEEL like riding it and doing stuff again. If you look for my posts there is more information. I got diagnosed in 2014, but suspect I had afib long b4 that. Age 63. Have a fantastic day!

What made you decide on this dose of nattokinase? I have just started taking it but at a lower dose. The last time I saw my cardiologist he said I did not need anticoagulants despite chadsvasc score of 2 ( female + 66yrs). But I wanted something! I already take fish oil and eat oily fish several times a week plus NAC which is supposed to be a blood thinner too. I thought I would go slow with the nattokinase and try a higher dose later.

Sounds prudent with what you say you are taking. I read some articles that seemed to indicate that the 2000-2400fu dose was a good rule of thumb if one depended on it as the primary blood thinner and also I look at how my blood clots when I cut myself. If it clots quickly, I tend to take more which led me to the 2400FU dose. Now when I accidentally (and every once and a while a self induced paper cut) I use that as my "INR" test to see how my blood thinning is working. I also take vitamin "E", D3, Turmeric and Coq10. All together I feel I have good thinning.

thedrswolfson.com/natural-b...

Study group shown on this page used 2 x 2000fu / day, so I am underneath that guideline.

selfhacked.com/blog/nattoki...

Nattokinase activity is measured in FU, the number of fibrinolytic units (FU).

Based on human studies, 2,000 FU seems to be the optimal dose

drjohnday.com/is-nattokinas...

Does nattokinase cause bleeding?

Fortunately, studies show that when it comes to bleeding, natto and nattokinase are very safe. Indeed, of the studies I reviewed in writing this article, I could find no significant bleeding risk from natto or nattokinase.

Cheers!

Thanks for this. I was concerned that Dr Day said that nattokinase was not strong enough for afib patients but he seems to be basing this on the anti aggregant affect compared to aspirin. As far as I am aware aspirin does not have the the other anticlotting effects that natto has. He also said one of his afib patients had had a stroke while taking it. But then no blood thinner is 100% effective in afib.

I am really perturbed that your cardiologist has said you don't need anticoagulants despite your chadsvasc score being 2 - I am assuming you have AFib? The fact that you are having to find ways of self-medicating because of your concerns is outrageous and I really feel for you. Are you in the UK? Please share your concerns with another professional - your GP may help. When my GP diagnosed me with AFib he had me on anticoagulants the same day and I was 64.

Deb1838
Deb1838
in reply to irene75359

I am the same I have a score of 2 but cardiologist took me off anticoagulant. Said as I have no family history of heart disease that I was low risk. I did question this with gp but as it is in writing from consultant they said that’s fine. Not for me it’s not. I have diabetes and no one in my family has that either 🤔

irene75359
irene75359
in reply to Deb1838

I would argue your case with your GP. I argued (very strongly) for bridging during a procedure where I had to stop warfarin and eventually the department at the hospital gave me heparin. Please do it - good luck.

I live in France. I had one episode of afib in 2015 which I believe was a reaction to Ciprofloxacin. I had had what might have been an episode in 2014 due to the same but I had never gone to the doctor while actually having it. I had been in hospital for diverticulitis in 2014 and while in hospital on the drip had felt very unwell with fastish heartbeat . They did an ECG but the cardiologist said it was ok. The evening I came out I I had tachy for about 3 hours. I went to the GP the next day and he said all was well but later I showed him the ECG ( they give you these things here) because it actually said abnormal rhythm on it and he said it showed a problem with electrical signals. In 2015 I was taken to our local hospital in an ambulance and they diagnosed afib and I was there several days . They would not let me out till INR had come up after being started on a vit k antagonist.

When I went to see my own cardiologist 3 months later he did a Holter and said as then I was under 65 I could come off the Préviscan and wean off the Bisoprolol after another 3 months. I was fine until March this year when I had a colectomy. I got an attack of afib 3 days after the op. The clinic cardiologist wanted to put me on Eliquis but I was not keen and nor was my surgeon. Colectomy has the risk of the join failing and this necessitates an emergency and open abdomen operation and Eliquis has no antidote. So I said I preferred Coumadine. I was on double Lovenox jabs and when I went home the nurse came twice a day to do the jab. But my INR was not moving up fast enough so when I saw my GP he changed me to Pradaxa. A week later I saw my own cardiologist again and had another Holter . He seemed to think there was nothing abnormal about having afib after a major op , said the Holter was perfectly ok and said I could stop the Pradaxa. To be honest I was relieved as I felt awful on it with indigestion and total lack of appetite. That was definitely the Pradaxa as before I went on it I was hungry all the time after the op. However I have since had 2 more episodes of afib ( according to my Kardia) . I told my GP and asked him if he thought the cardiologist's decision was due to the new ESC guidelines ( Dr Gupta talks about this in one of his videos) . He said probably. I have always had a big problem with meds being very sensitive and this has got worse after the floxing ( reaction to a fluoroquinolone antibiotic) . I want to take as little as possible . I think I might go back to the GP and see about getting Coumadine with self monitoring . The problem for me with the NOACs is that there is no info on long term use as they have just not been around long enough. Nobody has been on them for longer than about 10 years . Also my score points are for sex and age - I have no other comorbidities.

I self-monitor with warfarin and find it so easy and convenient. Unless I am ill I am nearly always in range and have had no side effects. I do not restrict my diet at all, I just try and be consistent. My GP is quite confident that I am careful.

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