Did anyone else see this? Interesting - I wonder if it could work for AF?
Re-enforces just how powerful the power of the mind is and as Bob said in his thread about reading drug leaflets and side effects, belief can be very powerful. Also interesting how it doesn’t work for everyone.
Yes I just watched it and definitely food for thought. Not sure about the pain killing effect though on genuine pain, the mind can be powerful but so can pain.
Yes it would have been interesting if they had given some fake adverse side effects to prove that one way or another. What I found very interesting was the difference shown for those patients who had the more empathic doctor's appointment and who felt better treated as a result with even better respsonses.
I have always been extremely lucky with the doctors I meet. Or have I? I remember a story about a rich man and a poor man talking and the poor man told the rich man how lucky he was to be rich. The rich man replied that it was strange that the harder he worked the luckier he became.
I have always tried to engage with those treating me. To educate myself about the condition/illness and to work with the doctor rather than sit there and say O K Cure me! .
Doesn't always work but then nothing ever will.
Like your reply Bob but a lot depends on the personality of the Dr.too if he is fed by his own ego they don't take kindly to us minions telling them what we think is wrong..My last Dr. was wonderful as he had no ego at all and once told me not to leave this Forum as he needed me to keep him updated..
Have a wonderful patients day.
Carol.
I agree to a degree I think it also has to do with how that seed is planted....hope is a very powerful word, feeling, emotion.....if you tell someone they have 2 weeks to live ok they can get their ducks in order but if they have that hope then they can live months, years or who knows. Whilst we have to be realistic I think there is a lot we do not know about the mind and body.
Calm the mind, calm the body and who knows what can happen
Very interesting programme. It would be good to see how this experiment works with AF as opposed to pain control.
It may be how things like Bowen works for all I know. And it does.
After the heads up earlier today about this programme I made sure I watched it - and boy was it interesting!
Like BobD, one of the more interesting things to me was the evidence that a good relationship with the doctor has a beneficial effect all by itself. The advice at the end of the programme was to see a different doctor if you weren't getting an empathetic response. We're always saying that here, are we not? And I didn't need any scientifically devised survey to tell me that a longer appointment with an empathetic doctor was of real significance. It was telling that only 38% of the participants who had a short appointment showed improvement whereas 51% of those who had a long appointment did. I'm no statistician, but that seemed significant to me. One of the doctors Mosley spoke to said they had increased the length of appointments at his GP surgery to 15 mins (from 7.5 mins originally) It would have been good to hear whether they had any evidence (even if only anecdotal) that it had improved their patients' outcomes.
Interesting too was Mosley's almost throw away remark that (as a Doctor), "You sometimes forget that there are real people living real lives." Too often here we learn of the experiences people have with doctors who don't seem to be aware that they treat the condition and not the person.
Now what we need is for Mosley to do a survey to test the hypothesis that being aware of the potential side effects of a medication (at the point when first taking it) increases the likelihood of experiencing one or more of them. (Given the discussion on that topic here the other day) Perhaps we should bombard the BBC with the suggestion that it's an idea Michael Mosley might like to explore?
I’m in Australia so obviously not subject to the NHS but I watched another British BBC show the other night in which they were interviewing GPs and the sign in the background said “Appointments are 10 minutes only”. Is that standard across the UK? I know simple issues can be dealt with quickly but often more time is needed. I wonder how you get to build a rapport with doctors if such rigid rules are applied.
Normal practice is 10 minutes as that will be what they are paid for, 12 minutes if you are lucky. Most GP practices are uneconomic unless they carry a practice list of about 9-10,000 patients each. How can you possibly care for that many people without limiting time. There is such a shortage of GPs across the country that in some areas there are no nearby practices and the days of small, rural practices with one or two doctors are more or less gone. Too much is expected of GPs for too little return or fulfillment. My GP tells me she spends less than one third of her time actually seeing patients face to face and the majority of her time is spent computer inputting. As a result there are more private GP practices springing up which few people can afford. The GPs are often the most frustrated by this restriction.
gponline.com/number-gp-prac...
Thanks. In Australia we have a two-tiered system. Medicare covers everyone (so it’s a great safety net) and there are some GP practices that ‘bulk-bill’ all patients (accept the government payment/rebate as full payment - a bit like NHS). Many will bulk-bill pensioners and kids. Most GP practices have a gap payment for every one else. For example the price for a standard consultation may be $70 and the rebate is $40, there’s a cost to the patient of $30.
yourgp.racgp.org.au/medicar...
Medicare covers you fully if you are a public patient in a public hospital (where there are waiting lists and no choice of doctor). We have private health insurance that covers us for private hospitals and enables you to choose whichever specialist you want to see l. It also covers ancillary health benefits like dentists, glasses, physio, etc The costs of private insurance keep rising though so more and more people are dropping it which puts more pressure on the public system.
"so more and more people are dropping it " which also puts less money into the private system and therefore raises prices. I typical vicious circle, I imagine.
I have been with a GP who has said to me (after the 10 minutes) "You are over your time, you'll have to make another appointment (usually 2 - 3 weeks away) to continue this conversation. It's a devastating outcome from seeing a healthcare professional.
Wow that’s dreadful. Under our system there is an allowance for longer consultations (at a higher fee but also with a higher rebate). If you know there’s something complex to discuss it’s recommended you book a longer appointment.
Our UK practice offers double length appointments. When I asked for one I was told 'You have to see the doctor for that"
I think that strictly speaking GPs in the UK only reckon to spend 10 mins with each patient. In the practice I attend there's a notice saying, in effect, 'one issue =one appointment' and if you have more to discuss you should make as many appointments as you have separate issues. It's possible to make 'double' appointments too - which I have done in the past. In fact I have never been told 'time's up' and quite often the Dr. has spent quite a bit longer with me than 10 mins. It's usually me who is keeping an eye on the time!
I don't know how long hospital consultants are 'allowed', but any outpatient appointment I've had has always been a lot longer than 10 mins.
It must be frustrating for doctors who want to deliver quality care with such constraints.
Yes, indeed. I would assume that it's the main reason why the NHS is finding it so hard to recruit and retain GPs.
In the 'good old days' (by which I mean not much more than 10 years or so ago!) one could get an appointment quickly and spend as long as you needed with the GP. The reasons why things are different now are complex, but an ageing population and individuals who have several chronic conditions are probably the most significant. Whenever I go to see the GP I'd say that c. 75% of those in the waiting room are elderly (and I don't live in an area with a particularly high proportion of elderly people)
Consultants are always running late. Initial ones usually take up much more time than follow up ones. I had a first appointment with a neurologist that took 45 minutes. I apologised to those waiting as I left !
I'm not able to view this here in the BBC, so was disappointed, but did find online some other BBC documentaries on the placebo effect. I take it that it's a series they're doing over a few years on the topic?
I found it fascinating, especially in light of my recent experience with my acupuncturist, which I mentioned in another post.
I know that for a good part of my 2 years with him, the acupuncture, herbs, and he helped me a lot. I felt a lovely, empathetic relationship with him and came away from every session feeling so much better.
But then once my AF episodes started up again over a year ago, there were times when I'm sure the tension between his world view and the Western docs didn't help matters at all. Given what I learned from the placebo documentaries, like a patient in a Harvard study who knowingly took placebo pills for IBS and the symptoms went away(!), I can imagine how my own mental healing powers were compromised by the tension, fear, and worry that resulted. My acupuncturist got on board with my ablation after I asked him to quit complaining about the meds and docs (politely, of course!).
Then in recent months, something changed, maybe the result of more financial pressure from my insurance, which he so inappropriately started complaining to me about. He'd drop hints about dropping my insurance and that meant he knew I wouldn't be able to afford his care. I had a strong sense that he was just plain trying to get rid of me for whatever reason. I even asked him point blank about it, but he insisted that wasn't true.
Well, as I shared in the other post, after I asked him to please stop complaining about his administrative pressures, he immediately dropped me as a patient. I was furious about the awful way he treated me, but also felt a huge sense of relief. My health improved immediately.
Thanks for mentioning the documentary. It's an inspiring topic and has given me much food for thought.
Hi Nella - Dr Mosley is a tv doctor who films for various programmers and this one was for Horizon which reports on serious science. He also presents a programmer called ‘Trust me I’m a Doctor’. Which is a series which tests out various myths about things like Olive Oil reduces cholesterol by doing small scale trials on actual people with control groups - turned out it does by the way!
He also did a programmer about nuts, specifically almonds, being good for heart health - again positive findings. Also debunks a lot of popular myths about various diets etc. he has also written several books based on his programmer the most well known being books.google.co.uk/books/ab...
written as a result of one of his research programmes - he follows this himself.
Didn't see it but read the account on the BBC Website. Fascinating. Last week after a short appointment with my consultant's registrar I was recommended to halve my Flecainide and Bisoprolol. Straight away I felt more ectopics, then 3 days later had a 3 hour bout of AF. (Only the second bout since the end of my 2nd ablation blanking period). Now I'm wondering if it was the drug dose or my mind that's playing tricks!
Very difficult to know isn’t it? When I was having my pacemaker implanted I did several meditations prior and during the procedure and told my body what was going to happen and not to react. I spoke to my heart saying these wires were going to be placed and it may feel traumatic but they would help.
I had no sedation or tranquilizers, just pain relief and local aesthetic and didn’t feel a thing. I am sure it helps to talk to your body and think and see yourself healing. I know my husband found doing a specific daily meditation when undergoing radiotherapy for cancer found it extremely helpful.
I wonder what may have happened if you had been told that reducing the dose would actually reduce episodes and help you heal?
That's great to hear about the pacemaker experience. Faith in one's doctors and one's treatment is key. I strongly believe in meditation and self hypnosis so I am going to tell myself very firmly what you suggest. I certainly feel much better with less bisoprolol. The trouble is that doctors believe so much in informed consent that you hear too much about the downsides of treatment and then expect them!
Expectations do play an important part I believe. I can see why doctors need to have informed consent, especially in light of previous especially horrific stories of incompetence and even malificence but there is a balance and I think doctors are often caught between a rock and a hard place, especially as patient perception is so widely variable.
Yes indeed it's a tricky balance for them. From some patients' point of view, preparing for the worst is a defence against disappointment. But actually, as you say, visualising the best outcome is a better way to promote healing. I'm working at it!
I've experienced the other side, with the docs not discussing any side effects at all and not being too concerned about dosage. It was up to me to bring this to their attention after I experienced some difficult side effects without knowing anything about them initially and then figuring out that the dose was too big.
There's a sensitivity there with regard to the connection to the doc and relationship to the meds. The key seems to be to find the best combination of warm, trusting connection with a skilled doc who will be supportive in figuring out the best combination of meds. My greatest challenges in dealing with AF in the past year have been with certain docs I chose to stop working with. As much as the placebo effect can kick in with a good connection and belief in the treatment, I can see how the opposite has happened with docs I could sense no connection with. They didn't really see me, show concern, express hope, so I felt nervous about the treatment. That sure won't kick in the placebo effect!
I can see that getting a message of hopefulness and empathy from the doc is very important. I know that when I connect to this, like I have here at this forum, my personal healing powers are strengthened considerably.
I hadn't quite realized the impact of being fed a mental diet of worry, fear, dismissiveness, and disinterest from various doctors, even though it wasn't hugely strong and present every single day. Still, it was there.
Now I've decided to focus on my own healing powers. I feel quite educated about AF now. I have my Flec & Toprol & Arnica if I need them to stop an episode. I'm giving my body a break from it daily for the time being since I still have episodes while on it. My EP doesn't recommend another ablation. My cardio is there if I need him, but canceled next week's appt, which is fine by me. I'll see what I can do by continuing with my good lifestyle changes and boost it with my own beliefs in my ability to heal and the support of you lovely people.
Yes, informed consent with a message of hopefulness and a great deal of empathy from a doctor is the ideal balance. Achieving the right frame of mind for healing has to be important too. What you're doing Nella sounds great.
Yes, I watched the programme with interest and was amazed at the recovery of some of the people who had taken the placebo pill. Even more amazing was the fact that they wanted to continue taking it, as they were absolutely convinced that it had helped.
I can remember the days when time with a GP wasn't limited and they would chat with you about your condition explaining all about it, at times even taking some pills from a cupboard to give to you. Most could carry out very minor surgical procedures too, one I went to had headed a hospital in the mountains of Nepal, which was a three day trek to get to by foot. In those days I would often leave the surgery feeling better immediately and was convinced that they were godlike and gifted with the power to heal. Now, unfortunately, I really don't have a lot of faith in them.
Jean
I think that a gift of the AF experience for me has been that I've become much more attuned to what my heart is telling me. For example, I can see now that before AF, I did my best to make the most of relationships while overlooking certain red flags in particular relationships that ended up going badly in one way or another. My heart has literally forced me, by going into AF, to pay attention to those red flags with people. That was one "chapter" in my experience of episodes. The documentary, with those lovely, supportive docs, really brought home to me just how crucial it is to have practitioners who are fully supportive. I can feel it either way; if it's not there, best to move along. At a minimum, why not get them out of the way so I can fully tap into my own strength?
Can you imagine EPs getting on board with doing dummy ablations? That would be fascinating.....the documentary showed dummy knee and back surgeries, so why not try ablations?
A neighbour we had in the late 50's used to have hypnotherapy when going to the dentist and later when giving birth.
Probably Panorama once featured a man in China having a lung removed and conscious under hypnotherapy.
In the 1970’s my then GP was a trained hypnotist and used it for many people at our dental clinic for tooth removal, deep fillings etc - the anaesthesia agents weren’t that good in those days and many people chose hypnosis rather than anaesthesia, including my son as he had an intense fear of dentists and my dentist wouldn’t treat him without hypnosis.
Yes, very interesting.I saw a similar programme last year when people thought they had had an operation when in fact it hadn't been performed.Some of the results were amazing.Wish I had a pill that worked like this for me! Are you still feeling well after the pacemaker implant? What are your thoughts now on the AV node ablation?
Hi - I had a more difficult week but because of Myasthenia I think. Whenever I feel I have inflammation in my body, which I have done this week, it is usually because I am fighting off a virus. I’ve been coughing and am a bit phlegmy which means my immune system reacts & goes into overdrive which means Myasthenia flare which then starts my heart off so a cascade reaction as I have had thumps and bumps and been very tired but now picking up, thank you for asking. I do think I am not as symptomatic though as I was, sometimes it’s really difficult with other conditions to know what is what.
Going to Birmingham tomorrow and looking forward to it.
I’m not making any decisions until review of PM which will be in November. I’m not keen in having a procedure in winter time, though I’m not sure I’ll have a choice of timing but we will see.
Best wishes CD.
I saw it and it does show the power of the mind. I have recently with help stopped taking long term opioid pain relief, mindfulness was a big part of it. I have not improved my pain but considering I take nothing at all for it now, it is not that different to when I was taking it? So I now see it has a Win!
I saw this programme but was not convinced .
Mr M can try to persuade me anytime with his charm and charisma but this mind over pain control didnt do it for me
I guess you put would have to have experienced it and it obviously didn’t work for everyone but around 40% efficacy is good as many pain drugs.
It is mind hacking to change physiology much like Mindfulness or hypnosis or spiritual healing or a whole host of other stuff. The point was that it was quantifiable and medically statistically significant, especially if it reduces or avoids reliance on exoensive drug use.
We do not know how many patients he selected his group from. Did he have some initial sessions to select ones who would be susceptible to mass hypnosis or auto suggestion.
I remember seeing the late Peter Casson on stage and he had a very quick selective process where he got people to clasp their hands. If they couldn’t unclasp them on command they were candidates. He later used his skills in pain relief and other areas.
independent.co.uk/news/peop...
Your experience of af please
Co-enzyme Q10 - an expensive placebo supplement?
Experience with amiodarone
5th ablation on the horizon!!!!
A new treatment for AF on the horizon
